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Old 04-05-2012, 04:14 PM
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Default laser lights - if you had it to do over again ...

I bought a Crimson Trace for my M36 and my wife bought one for her M&P9C. No small cash outlay, right?

Two years later, I'm thinking I wasted my money. I can acquire my target in a hurry just by being familiar with the gun and practicing regularly. I suppose if a BG saw a red dot in his chest he may think twice about his choices but other than that, I'm thinking it's a pretty useless accessory.

Anyone else?
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:51 PM
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Which model did you get for your 36?

What do you want for it?

S/F,

RAS
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:51 PM
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yes, I agree with your conclusion.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:02 PM
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Or the badguy might see the source of the little red light and shoot towards it. I would think a strobe might be better. I don't use either though. It might be better to be well trained, both body and mind, in the use of your firearm.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:15 PM
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It looks like RASMITH3442 thinks it's worth something and I agree.

As I've stated in other posts the value of laser sights, IMHO, is the ability to practice and maintain good trigger control. When dry firing try to keep that dot from moving. Do this about 20 times or so and then load it up, fire it like you just did the last 10 times and watch you accuracy improve.

Although you can accomplish this with a less expensive laser I personally like the quality of Crimson Trace and have a set on on three of my handguns.

It works for me anyway.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:27 PM
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Here's another thread with both "sides" represented......

Laser Sights-Value in Real World Combat
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:30 PM
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I followed the same path as the OP. I put C-T grips
on a 642, The problem was, my practice was in daylight,
where I couldn't pick up the dot. Went back to factoru grips.
On a 442, the factory grips were hurting my hands, so I put
a set of C-T's on that, just for comfort.
Practicing without the C-T grips finds me picking up the sights
right where I was looking.
The C-T grips are slightly larger, and feel better when shooting.
Works for me. TACC1
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:22 PM
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I am strictly a point shooter out to about 25 yards, being trained that way over the years in LE. I jumped in the CT laser water a couple of months ago after buying a Kahr CM9. I was not satisfied with it and used it about a week before taking it off. I was always searching for the red dot and not focusing on the target. That will get you DOA. I am sure if I practiced more with it, I may have liked it better. It is not useful in day light and at night I do not want anything to pinpoint my position. I would recommend finding someone who has one and experiment before buying. That money can be used for more ammo(IMO).

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Old 04-05-2012, 09:51 PM
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I asked the same question several years ago. The answers I got were mostly negative by folks that didn't have much experience with them.

So over the course of a month I fired just under 1000 rounds with a laser. I found that coming out of the holster and shooting, the laser was almost useless. Took to much time to find the laser. But in every other situation such as lying on my back, around a corner, over a counter, etc....... The laser was a great help.

It's another tool. But one that must be practiced with. And one that does not replace the iron sights.

And these days my eye sight close up is getting worse.

The problem isn't lasers themselves. The problem is people that buy them and expect too much too soon. Some people aren't patient enough to give them a chance.

If your laser isn't hindering you, leave it on.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:36 PM
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I'm coming to the same exact conclusion as the OP. I put the LG-405 on my 642 a couple years ago. It was novel at the time, it's fun at the range, but the grips themselves don't fit my hand at all. A wood boot grip feels better to me than the laser grip. I can't say that was money well spent, but I won't do it again.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
... But in every other situation such as lying on my back, around a corner, over a counter, etc....... The laser was a great help.
...If your laser isn't hindering you, leave it on.
I had not thought about this aspect and you're right.

It doesn't hinder, actually a comfortable grip. Guess I'll leave it be.

Thanks!
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:49 AM
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I have had a set of CT Laser Grips for my J Frame for almost 3 years. I find them to be a distraction in daylight shooting. When at the range shooting BUG matches, I turn them off.

Where they shine is low light where it is hard to pick up the sights. For home defense, and night time concealed carry they are a very good tool for the job.

Just my 2 cents

Bob
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:09 PM
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I had not thought about this aspect and you're right.

It doesn't hinder, actually a comfortable grip. Guess I'll leave it be.

Thanks!
Having used CT Grips in a dynamic situtation many times dealing with Raccoons & 'Possums it's hard to explain the advantage they provide.

Once you start running around in the dark, moving around vehicles, buildings etc., which is what your target is also probably doing, things change up dramatically when compared to shooting at a stationary target.

I find that a good shot usually only presents itself for 1 or 2 seconds in that envitroment, if you're lucky, and by the time you identify your target and get the sights lined up it's usually too late to make the shot. I also learned something that the LEO's are well aware of. When using a flashlight, especially on the move, the shadows the beam generates makes things a little more interesting.

You may be moving, the target may be moving and if using a flashlight the shadows the beam creates will also be moving, to a certain extent. Now add obstacles and the fact that your heart rate is up and you will get some idea of the enviroment you may find yourself in.

Having a laser to help guide your shot is a definite plus in my book. With that said, if your target is just going to stand there and let you shoot at it then a laser may not be that much of an asset.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:18 PM
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I had a set on my 642, I believe the 405's???. They felt too "bulky" to me, so I sold them. I probably made the wrong choice, there's a smaller set CT makes, less bulky. Think I may try those.

I also agree with ogilvyspecial, laser sights might be quicker in real life situations than iron sights. ymmv
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:30 PM
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I had a set on my 642, I believe the 405's???. They felt too "bulky" to me, so I sold them. I probably made the wrong choice, there's a smaller set CT makes, less bulky. Think I may try those.

I also agree with ogilvyspecial, laser sights might be quicker in real life situations than iron sights. ymmv
Mike, here are the 2 styles you were probably referring to.

We use the larger 305's in a "house gun" role and the smaller 405's for concealed carry.

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Old 04-06-2012, 03:38 PM
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Mike, here are the 2 styles you were probably referring to.

We use the larger 305's in a "house gun" role and the smaller 405's for concealed carry.

Thanks OGY, I may try the 305's, though they appear longer, they look slimmer . The 405's just felt too bulky and smushy to me, and the rubber was getting caught on the draw. I know they once made a hard plastic version, those might be my ticket, but probably hard to find.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:53 PM
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in the real world...useless. For practice, shooting static paper where the shooter, the paper and everything else remains motionless...sure its cool and fun. good luck using a laser in any situation that requires you to move, take cover, has a moving target, a target moving behind and through obstacles, WHILE shooting...it will never be used.

Try running and aiming. do it on a white wall...watch that little red dot dance and vibrate and become useless. Now do the same through some foliage outdoors...that red dot gets dissected by branches, leaves, and continues to dance and vibrate while you move. I highly doubt there will be many SD shootings where the shooter is 100% motionless, and your target stands still so you can put a dot on his/her chest. just not going to happen. I think it slows down the natural shooting time due to the fact that your mind will want to seek out and find that dot before you pull the trigger. I say train more without, and become proficient without the gadgets. YMMV.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:30 PM
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Oh good! I'm not the only one. I got a laser with my Sig P238 (it was used and it came with the deal) and attached it. I did not like it at all. It seemed to me that I would be better served to simply learn to sight the gun and shoot it. The laser is sitting in the original gun case and hopefully, if I ever decide to sell it, someone will think that it is great.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:47 PM
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Yep, i agree that the lasers are a neat feature for folks that don't really try to use them in a a practicable senero. They just don't seem to perform like you think they would.

I'm not sure they have a real advantage?

spricks
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:57 PM
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in the real world...useless. For practice, shooting static paper where the shooter, the paper and everything else remains motionless...sure its cool and fun. good luck using a laser in any situation that requires you to move, take cover, has a moving target, a target moving behind and through obstacles, WHILE shooting...it will never be used.

Try running and aiming. do it on a white wall...watch that little red dot dance and vibrate and become useless. Now do the same through some foliage outdoors...that red dot gets dissected by branches, leaves, and continues to dance and vibrate while you move. I highly doubt there will be many SD shootings where the shooter is 100% motionless, and your target stands still so you can put a dot on his/her chest. just not going to happen. I think it slows down the natural shooting time due to the fact that your mind will want to seek out and find that dot before you pull the trigger. I say train more without, and become proficient without the gadgets. YMMV.
My experience has been just the opposite. I've probably taken 15 Raccoons & 'Possums using laser sights and there wasn't one of them that just stood there. I would say that I would have been lucky to even get a shot on most of them, much less hit them, while we were both running or moving through the dark if not for the laser sight. Many of my shots were taken while the critter was moving through tall grass, bushes, trees, vehicles or heavy equipment.

We have a small pistol range in our backyard and prior to getting our first laser grip I did quite a bit of night time shooting. At a certain point I could hit whatever it was I was shooting at while I was on the move, which made me think I could use a revolver for critter control.

Since this post another thread started about back yard ranges, you can see ours here.

Let's see your backyard range

We have 14 wireless passive infra-red sensors around the property & buildings so nothing moves out there without us knowing about it. Being a night person I find myself checking out sensor trips multiple times a night during the warmer months, which is why I wanted the ease of using a revolver instead of toteing a shotgun around all of the time.

Within just a few nights of switching over to a revolver I was humbled, greatly humbled.

My first attempt was a dismal failure due to the dynamic enviroment I found myself in, which was mentioned in my previous post. Sure, I could spot my target using a flashlight easy enough but didn't have enough time to even think about lining up the sights in the short time frame I had available. I found that after I spotted my target, then went to do a final alignment of the sights the target had moved so it was back to finding it again before trying the sights once again. Essentially I couldn't keep track of both (target & sights) at the same time in the short time available.

On my first attempt I found my target and was working on sight alignment and during that short time span, maybe 1-2 seconds, my arms hit a small tree as I traversed my body following the target's movement. By the time I recovered from that it was all over.

Finding out that my skill at shooting stationary targets didn't transfer over to moving targets as well as I had thought, I figured what the heck, let's try a CT Grip and see what happens. At that point I had no opinion on them one way or the other, although I had heard them referred to as a "gimmick." Reading the "gagdet" comment quoted above reminded me of that.

After putting the CT Grips on my Ruger SP101 (.327 Fed Mag) my success rate flew off the charts, which made me a firm believer in their effectiveness. My "yard round" of choice in the Ruger was .32 S&W Longs but this year I'm relying on a S&W Governor, with CT Grips, as my yard gun. I'm switching to the Governor in spite of my previous, dismal results / experience with a Taurus Judge, which didn't have CT Grips on it. I'm thinking that the results I experienced with the Ruger & CT Grips may transfer over to the Governor.

I'm such a firm believer in the effectiveness of lasers that now even my shotgun has a Streamlight TLR2s mounted on it and I've made shots that I wouldn't have even been able to think about taking, all at critters on the move, prior to adding the TLR to my shotgun.

For range work I rarely have the CT Grips turned on, focusing on "regular" shooting methods and find that once the grips are on and I'm running around chasing something in the middle of the night it's almost like I'm cheating. The flashlight finds my target and the red dot takes care of the sighting aspect. Most times I don't even have to bring the gun up to eye level to take / make the shot.......

I've said my piece and nothing anybody can say will make me ignore the results I've experienced first hand. Especially not after getting my comeuppance the night I found out I wasn't as good as I thought I was, or that I was simply going to go out in the dark and effectively use iron sights in the time frame required to take / make the shot.

The bottom line is, some things may not be as we percieve them to be and hand's on experience usually sets the record straight. Been there, done that...

As always, your mileage may vary........

Below are my night time "gadgets" that have served me well many times, with the exception of the Governor. The jury is still out on that one.



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Old 04-06-2012, 06:55 PM
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I was referring to a handgun....I know I don't need a laser on my numerous scatterguns. Trust me on that.

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Old 04-06-2012, 07:15 PM
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I was referring to a handgun....I know I don't need a laser on my numerous scatterguns. Trust me on that.

spricks
I absolutely agree, in an enclosed area they are probably unnessessary.

Now go out in the dark and start runnin' & gunnin', I bet you will find them to be a great help.

Dollar for dollar that TLR2s was some of the best money I've ever spent. Squeeze the switchpad on the forestock & the light, laser, or both activate, depending on how I have it set, release pressure on the switchpad and it goes off. Give it two quick squeezes & hold it for the strobe function.

The beauty of that set-up is that when you see your target the dot is already there and it beats my old method of using an independently held light source in conjuction with the shotgun.
Beats it by a long shot, no pun intended.

I've pulled off shots with the 870 and TLR that I know I'm nowhere near good enough to make on my own. Trust me on that.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:17 PM
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I absolutely would have one on all of my ccw. It is another tool that I have if I need and if I don't want to use I do not have to. Anything I can use to protect my family and my self is money well spent. I train with them but do not rely on them. For that matter any tool can malfunction so I always try to have a plan B.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 AM
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I think they are a fun gadget and expensive toy.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:03 AM
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Try shooting around corners with your iron sights, the lasers work, and as OLD MEN'S EYES they're WONDERFUL.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:54 AM
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Since taking this photo, I have added lasers to eight more of my guns. I don't believe that a laser will help a poor shooter , however, I do think that a laser can make a good shooter even better. The laser allows for similar sighting to the red dots currently having great success with our armed forces with the additional benefit of not requiring the sights to be placed in front of your field of view (i.e. in front of your face).
The below 7 shot group was shot at a distance of 15 yards with my laser equipped M317. All of my on the job use of firearms took place at night. I would have loved a laser equipped revolver back in the day.
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:39 PM
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laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ...  
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Dang BB, I thought I had quite a few with 9, but you make me look like a piker!

I've been wondering if Crimson Trace plans on offering their Revolver Grips
with a green laser at some point in the future, although I don't know what I
would do if they did, as far as my red units are concerned.

A couple of years ago I sold some ammo to a guy who is a member of one
of our State's "roving" SWAT teams. These teams are basically on call to the
smaller PD's around the state that don't have the funds for their own SWAT team.
He also explained that another area of responsibility of theirs is our State Prison System.

I talked to this guy for a while and he recommended, if given the choice,
to go with green lasers, which is what they were using. He explained that
the green dot was much easier to see when compared to the red, day or night.

Ever since talking to him I have been watching, but no choice of color as of yet....
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:50 PM
Moonman Moonman is offline
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laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ...  
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Green is more expensive and has a narrower ambient temperature range that it works well in. Not the best for really cold weather places.
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:04 PM
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ogilvyspecial ogilvyspecial is offline
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laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ... laser lights - if you had it to do over again ...  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonman View Post
Green is more expensive and has a narrower ambient temperature range that it works well in. Not the best for really cold weather places.
Thanks Moonman!
Here in Michigan that's a good
piece of information to be aware of.

Maybe cost & region versatility are why CT
hasn't offered a green version as of yet.

You just gotta love the knowledge on this site and the
fact that others are willing to take the time to share it!!
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:25 PM
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Hill_Country Hill_Country is offline
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CT used to have a web page which addressed green lasers. (Which I can't find, now, of course. <G>)

In addition to Moonman's points about cost and ambient temperature, I believe they also mentioned that green lasers go through batteries more quickly and also lead back to the shooters' position (which red only does in fog or smoke).

I'm impressed by the collections of CT equipped S&W's. I'm a true believer, but nowhere close to you guys.
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:41 PM
southchatham southchatham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
I bought a Crimson Trace for my M36 and my wife bought one for her M&P9C. No small cash outlay, right?

Two years later, I'm thinking I wasted my money. I can acquire my target in a hurry just by being familiar with the gun and practicing regularly. I suppose if a BG saw a red dot in his chest he may think twice about his choices but other than that, I'm thinking it's a pretty useless accessory.

Anyone else?
I'm with you. I bought CT for both my 9c and 438. I sold them on ebay within several months. I prefer to use the sights or just point shoot up close.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:14 AM
NE450No2 NE450No2 is offline
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I have shot NRA Bullseye Pistol, Police PPC, IPSC, and IDPA, and I have hunted with a handgun.

So I am a believer in always using the sights, of possible.

However after I retired, the wife and I were in a gunstore one day, and she handled a handgun with a laser, and liked it.

So I bought one for her and my 629 Mountain Guns in 44 Mags, and one for a 1911. All Cromson Trace.

We have used them quite a bit, on live targets, and I can say when you can see the laser, they are devestation on running targets.

Also I was in a Police/Military shooting school and even in daylight with a little cloud cover I could see the laser on the moving target.

I never missed a single shot. In fact it was easy to hit the mover and it was going pretty fast as the day wore on. No way I would have hit several of the running animals, especially the ones at night and no way i would have hit the mover all the time.

Since then I have put them on a couple of AR's and sighted them in at 100 yards.

I can hip shoot head shots near 100 % of the time at 100 yards and chest shots are 100%. Again when you can see the laser.

So I can say I really like them, I have found them most useful in the real world, and most reliable.

If you can see the laser they work great when you are moving while shoting as well.

You cannot always see the laser, but you can see it quite a bit of the time.
You cannot see your iron sights clearly all the time either.

I find it a most useful tool to have. Well worth the Money, IMHO.

If I was the Chief of Police of a Dept. With proper training they would be issued/allowed on all guns.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:49 AM
Moonman Moonman is offline
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Crimson Trace has an NRA INSTRUCTOR discount program too.
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