DA Trigger Pull Hitting Low

[Smoke]

My S&W 4006 has a heavy DA trigger pull and I’ve noticed that when I go to the range that first shot is always low because I’m pulling it down. Other than consciously aiming high on that first shot what can I do to overcome that?

Or is it even necessary? The reason I ask is that even the low shots are still solid hits on the qualification target if not high scorers. So I’m still hitting the target I’m just not scoring as high as I’d like.

[OKFC05]

Mastering a heavy long pull is difficult but not impossible. Dry fire with a coin on the slide is useful to improve concentration and give immediate feedback.
How much work you want to put into it is up to you. The trigger pull is not causing the problem, but is bringing out all the imperfections in trigger control that we all work so hard to eliminate.
Hitting low is caused by "milking" the grip, squeezing your hand instead of just pressing the trigger straight back using only your trigger finger.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

Hitting low is caused by "milking" the grip, squeezing your hand instead of just pressing the trigger straight back using only your trigger finger.

Can you elaborate please?

[OKFC05]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Can you elaborate please?

Sure. Hold your gun hand as if you had a gun and touch your thumb to your middle finger. Now work you trigger finger back and forth, observing the natural tendency for the other fingers to also move, or to change pressure against your thumb.
Ideally, when you press the trigger back, we would like the pressure of the other fingers against the gun to remain constant because squeezing your fingers pulls the gun down BEFORE the shot.
In a competitive 2-handed grip, we want the palms of both hands to be against the gun, and the off hand to do 70% of the gun holding. The primary hand should keep a constant, but not overly heavy, pressure against the grip as the trigger is pressed.
Takes considerable practice to do consistently.

[Rastoff]

Dry practice can solve your issue. Lots of dry practice. I do at least 10-20 dry presses for every live round.

"Milking the grip" is exactly like it sounds. Think of milking a cow. Rather than moving just your trigger finger, you squeeze all your fingers. This has different effects for different people, but the result for all of them is shots not to POA.

One solution for this is to relax the pinky. The pinky is not necessary to grip the gun. I had one student hold his pinky straight out. His POI moved instantly to POA.

Another solution is to drop the DA/SA gun and go to SA only. But you still might have the problem only to a lesser degree.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

Sure. Hold your gun hand as if you had a gun and touch your thumb to your middle finger. Now work you trigger finger back and forth, observing the natural tendency for the other fingers to also move, or to change pressure against your thumb.
Ideally, when you press the trigger back, we would like the pressure of the other fingers against the gun to remain constant because squeezing your fingers pulls the gun down BEFORE the shot.
In a competitive 2-handed grip, we want the palms of both hands to be against the gun, and the off hand to do 70% of the gun holding. The primary hand should keep a constant, but not overly heavy, pressure against the grip as the trigger is pressed.
Takes considerable practice to do consistently.

Thanks I will work on this

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Another solution is to drop the DA/SA gun and go to SA only. But you still might have the problem only to a lesser degree.

I notice that this is far more pronounced with the DA first shot that's why I assume that the DA trigger was the culprit. The SA follow up shots were a much tighter group and didn't drop nearly as low.

In fact during the actual qualification there were two distinct groups of shots. Each string was two shots, one DA and one SA.

I got the best score I ever got with my M&P Shield with its consistant trigger pull

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I notice that this is far more pronounced with the DA first shot that's why I assume that the DA trigger was the culprit.

Actually, this is a really good point to bring up.

The long, heavy pull of any DA gun will magnify issues with grip and trigger control. Conversely, a crisp single action trigger pull can help hid issues because they are less pronounced.

I think many of us would do well to do some dry presses with a DA gun. Learning to control that long, heavy pull can only help with a lighter and more crisp single action.

[Smoke]

It makes more sense to me to work on my technique than to buy a different gun.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Smoke

It makes more sense to me to work on my technique than to buy a different gun.

Absolutely! You'll get no argument from me on that score. My previous comment about "dumping the DA/SA" was a little tongue in cheek. I wish more people would come to the same realization. Working on technique is far more valuable than a new gun.

I'm surprised no one has tried to convince you to grind off some of your front sight yet.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I'm surprised no one has tried to convince you to grind off some of your front sight yet.

I kind of hit that point when I mention just aiming deliberately high

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I notice that this is far more pronounced with the DA first shot that's why I assume that the DA trigger was the culprit. The SA follow up shots were a much tighter group and didn't drop nearly as low.

In fact during the actual qualification there were two distinct groups of shots. Each string was two shots, one DA and one SA.

...

Got some Dummy rounds? Randomly space 2-3 in each of several magazines, mix the magazines and then run the same shooting drills you normally run. If you notice an anticipatory flinch when a Dummy round comes up, you might have more than a trigger control/technique issue to resolve.

Your 4006 have a flat grip? Consider changing to the arched grip from a 59XX. It might help raise all your POI's. (But any trigger technique & control issues still need to be identified and addressed, of course.) The arched grip was actually used in the M39 for a reason, but it may not fit the hand/fingers of all shooters when a double stack mag is involved (hence, the flat M59 grip). The flat backstrap may help with finger reach and palm fit, but the arched backstrap may help with muzzle elevation during DA trigger press. (Many years ago the local CHP field office actually wanted to trade my agency a bunch of extra 4006 straight grips for some extra 59XX arched grips we'd received. We did. Shooters in both agencies benefitted. What was a 'problem' for one shooter became the 'solution' for another shooter. The grass is always greener, right? )

When using a 2-handed shooting technique, transferring the bulk of the grip effort to the support hand may be fine for competition and sport shooting, where you can always choose to use a 2-handed grip, but beware of it possibly degrading your strong hand grip for those instances when you choose ... or must ... shoot using a 1-handed grip. Going from 30% strong hand effort in 2-handed situations to 100% strong hand in effort in 1-handed situations might sometimes be confusing to your hand, especially if making the switch unexpectedly, and under stress.

I prefer to develop a consistent grip effort using my strong (master) hand, and don't change the amount of tension, support or "grip responsibility" of the strong hand regardless of whether I'm shooting 1 or 2-handed. (I also make sure my support hand is capable of becoming the "strong hand", if I have to switch to it as something more than a "support" role.)

When I first had to transition from a .357 revolver over to a hi-cap 9mm (then-new 5903), I treated the initial DA trigger press as a DA revolver press, and each subsequent SA trigger press as either a revolver cocked in SA, or a cocked 1911.

While some judicious use of dry-fire can certainly be helpful in some instances, bear in mind that we expect no recoil to occur when dry-firing with an EMPTY gun/magazine, so we aren't really working on eliminating the startle/flinch response that can occur during live-fire. We're basically just working on grip & trigger press technique in very controlled conditions (meaning absent recoil & muzzle blast ). Like how some folks may "learn" not to flinch when changing over to a .22 pistol for live-fire trigger press practice, because of its gentle recoil, but then discover to their dismay that their flinch is even worse when they change back over to a centerfire pistol with more recoil than the .22LR. )

Just some thoughts. These sort of things can be a like a Venn Diagram for different shooters, with different amounts of different influences coming together and over-lapping. It's much easier to address when working with any particular shooter out on the firing line.

[Smoke]

The instructor says he thinks I'm anticipating the round is that the same as a flinch?

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Smoke

The instructor says he thinks I'm anticipating the round is that the same as a flinch?

It's called "anticipating the recoil." You're jumping/jerking/flinching in anticipation of a big loud noise and some backwards pressure. This generally causes rounds to go low and left or right, depending on which hand you shoot with.

[Waywatcher]

Yes. I also used a coin on my front sight during dry fire. It will fall if the trigger pull is less than perfect.

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Smoke

The instructor says he thinks I'm anticipating the round is that the same as a flinch?

Yep. It's commonly known as an "anticipatory flinch".

The Dummy round drill, especially if conducted by the instructor, would help to clearly illustrate this to you.

Sometimes when I've been out on the firing line working with someone who has a flinch which they can't feel (or wish to acknowledge), I've often simply taken a shooter's pistol, saying I want to examine it, and then while distracting them I'll have emptied the chamber and only pretended to recharge the chamber. I'll tell them to make an immediate aimed shot (distracting them from inspecting the visual loaded chamber viewing port) ... and then when they make a significant dip of the muzzle when the gun only goes "click", it's much easier to convince them they're contributing to low POI by flinching and depressing the muzzle.

Dummy rounds are better because you can arrange for a series of them to come up under the hammer at unexpected intervals. Makes for a bit of more nervous shooter, at times, though. Might even aggravate the anticipation ... which might make it more obvious to the shooter, as well as give them some idea of how their skills might really degrade under actual stress ).

The startle response can be addressed via both "hardware & software" routes, but typically only after the shooter actually recognizes what's really occurring (which a lot of shooters can't/won't, at first).

Don't think you've discovered something new.

The good news is that it can usually be resolved.

The bad news is that you have to make sure it stays resolved for each and every future trigger press.

That usually means some "reprogramming" of the trigger & grip technique you've spent years ingraining, deliberately replacing it over time with something else ... which may take 2-5K proper repetitions in order to create a level of unconscious competence.

Just depends.

[Waywatcher]

What Fastbolt said reminded of when I took a novice shooter to the range and he was wondering why his shots were going low and were generally inaccurate.

I tried to show him what a flinch was by demonstrating it and having him watch me. I tried to flinch. I tried to anticipate the gun going off. I couldn't make myself flinch. My trigger pull technique was so ingrained that I couldn't flinch even when I was consciously trying to. It didn't make for a very good teaching moment, but I was happy that I couldn't physically flinch even when I tried to.

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Waywatcher

... but I was happy that I couldn't physically flinch even when I tried to.

I've always felt a flash of gratitude for all the range hours invested whenever I've lost count of rounds fired and pressed the trigger on one of my revolvers on an empty/fired case, and saw the gun remain steady and unflinching when there wasn't any recoil.

On the other hand, catching yourself from a potential flinch/jerk when running some pistol during a demanding drill or course of fire is dismaying and annoying.

[thibaultfelix40]

It may well not be any thing you are doing. The double action groups I fire with my revolvers are below the single action groups. If your da trigger is say 10 lbs and sa is 5 lbs, it means that you have an extra 5 lbs of grip on your gun. This is all physics. Look at the previous replies at other guys getting 2 groups. To get two groups you and the gun and the ammo have to have some degree of accuracy. You probably will not be able to see a 2 inch elevation difference between 10 in groups. I noticed this most when I shot a light accurate 22 revolver. I think this may be the reason some people shoot better da than sa with da revolvers. I am not experienced with automatics but I wonder if a stiff double action trigger might help over come grip related problems. I have limited power in my right ring finger from an old injury and I notice a stiff trigger helps my grip.

[Smoke]

The problem is non existant with my 9MM Shield (6.5 # trigger) and much more pronounced with the 4006 (11# DA trigger). I haven't noticed it one way or the other with my 6906 (9# DATrigger).

The instructor says I'm "Anticipating the round" (Direct quote) and the only reason I questioned that is because it only comes out with the gun with the heaviest trigger pull.

All of my shots are solid torso hits but if I can do better I want to do better.

And having said all that if it is a flinch how do I fix it.

[OKFC05]

And having said all that if it is a flinch how do I fix it.

Lots of the right kind of practice. I tell my student to put a quarter on the slide of my loaner Sigma and give me the quarter each time it falls off in their dryfire practice. In other words, it takes addressing the problem rather than making excuses, and having enough motivation to correct it. How much effort you want to expend is up to you.
What you are doing is squeezing your whole hand and moving the gun before the shot. A short, crisp, light trigger masks the problem, just as my Sigma magnifies it.

[Trons]

I was having difficulty with my Shield, shooting low. Some Snap Caps later and I realize it was me. I corrected it. Practice practice practice.

we shot yesterday and for some reason (surprise) my shots were going low again. I drew and shot and forgot to release the safety (working that into my training) and low and behold, the muzzle dipped when it didn't go bang. My friend, who had been out shooting me, but not by a large margin, laughed at me. I just grinned and said "I know what I'm doing now. I know how to fix it." Next clip goes to the middle. I don't know why I do it sometimes, but it seems that if I go without shooting, it comes back. More shooting for me

[Biggfoot44]

I give you an answer to a slightly different question , that of "How do I work on shooting acceptably well with my DA/SA bottom feeder ? "

1. Dry firing (DA flavor ).

2. Decock between every shot. Continue until shooting acceptable group sizes , within acceptable distance from POA .subjective standards vary as to how good/ close is good/ close enough.

3. Practice transitions , ie DA shot followed by SA shot. Decock between each two shot string. Continue until the subjective good/ close enough.

How close is close enough ? At the low end , if aiming center of mass at 7yds , confidently place hit in torso. At upper end , shooting a reasonably realistic / reasonably challenging qualification or defensive type course of fire , all the hits are in a single group , without an outlieing sub-cluster of hits.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

I give you an answer to a slightly different question , that of "How do I work on shooting acceptably well with my DA/SA bottom feeder ? "

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

1. Dry firing (DA flavor ).

Don't do as much as I should

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

2. Decock between every shot. Continue until shooting acceptable group sizes , within acceptable distance from POA .subjective standards vary as to how good/ close is good/ close enough.

This one I really can't do. It's a long story but my finances are such that the only actual range time I get is when my church sponsors training for our security volunteers. I don't think it's feasible to decock in the middle of a training drill. I might be able to take some time after class to do that though

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

3. Practice transitions , ie DA shot followed by SA shot. Decock between each two shot string. Continue until the subjective good/ close enough.

That's what I do now in training.

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

How close is close enough ? At the low end , if aiming center of mass at 7yds , confidently place hit in torso.

That's what I do now but I want to do better because I know damn well that if I ever have to do this with someone shooting back at me my "Mad Skillz" will be significantly degraded

Originally Posted by Biggfoot44

At upper end , shooting a reasonably realistic / reasonably challenging qualification or defensive type course of fire , all the hits are in a single group , without an outlieing sub-cluster of hits .

I can do that with the Shield but not with the 4006