We've been discussing in another thread in these fora, the "21 foot rule". This is the distance that someone with a knife can successfully attack a man with a gun.

I've often heard about J-frames: "Good for its intended purposes; 5 to 7 yards or closer."

So the J-frame is basically good for (if you believe the above statements) distances that will clearly get you injured or killed.

So what is wrong with the above?

J frames have a better range than depending on the shooter. I prefer the 30 ft. rule.

I can hit an 8" plate at 24 yds with either my 36 2" or my 642 1-7/8" barrels. So I disagree with people who say 21 feet is a practical limit for a J-frame. Neither gun is a target gun but if you put in the practice time you can master the accuracy of j-frame. I do find that the airweight is noticably harder to keep a good pattern with its sights so I put a Crimson Trace lazer grip on it and it is much easier to keep a tight group.

Mythbusters just did a show on the -don't bring a knife to a gunfight- rule and found that a perp with a knife can indeed close and stab a gunman at about 21 ft; however, most of the time the shooter got a shot off.

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

(Wrong forum?) :-)

Well, first off, if you look at the original stuff from Tueller, and then the follow up material from others who have worked on the topic, 21 feet from a determined attacker with a contact weapon (knife, club, beer bottle, whatever) is WAY TOO CLOSE.

Second, if one work with their J frame and develops appropriate proficiency and mindset, using decent ammo (as I often said, I have gone full reactionary and prefer WC/SWC for such, although I would seriously consider the Black Hills standard pressure loading with the Barnes all copper HP), it cane be a functional weapon well past that distance. FOR ME, a J frame .38 is a BUG only except in very limited circumstances, so that analysis is a bit off, but there can be some for whom it is a primary for a lot of good reasons.

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NHI, 10-8.

Actually, that is the distance within which a person carrying a handgun openly cannot react fast enough to draw, shoot, and stop a knife-wielding attacker before the attacker can get to him/her. If a person is carrying concealed, I'd move that distance out to 28-30 feet.

The people who post that about J-frames are wrong. I regularly shoot my Model 37 at 25 yards with better than "minute of bad guy" accuracy.

ECS

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Lack of common sense and valid facts.

I dont have the accuracy that some people here have, but I can and do regularly keep all my shots from my 642 in the black on a B16 Target(5 1/2in black) at 50ft. Using the 642's regular sights and with the CT LG-305 I keep most in black on the same kind of target at 75ft with a couple fliers.

Its the people who dont practice with their firearms who make foolish claims as to the lack of ability of any firearm.

As for the 21ft/28ft rule, whichever distance you subscribe to, it has been beaten to death multiple times and as stated above/earlier Mythbusters did a show on it. If you need visual confirmation.

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Disabled Combat Veteran OIF

like many have said, my J's are capable of accurate shots at distances greater than 30-40 yds. with a little practice you can shoot a J at 50 yds. and put rounds on target, with iron sights. the 21 foot rule only applies if i don't see the attacker sooner. if a guy (or gal) is brandishing a knife, or club, and threatening me at 50 or 100 feet, i'm gonna be ready to engage. be damned the legal aspect. judged by 12 or carried by 6... not a hard choice to make.

This is a topic for an entire book, but...

Try to avoid being 21 (or 30) feet away from a knife-wielding nutcase with your gun holstered. Of course, you can't always anticipate when trouble will find you, so train and be prepared. The J frame you carry is better than the heavy (fill in the blank) that was too much of a bother to wear that day.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

You will definitely be armed with a J frame - 5 rounds of quality ammunition is not unarmed. Your best weapon is your mind. Situational Awareness is everything. The game is to know there is a threat present well before it gets within 21 feet of you. My personal preference is about 1,000 yards with an M-21 :-)

This about J frames and other "belly guns" is a popular belief among those too lazy to practice with their small guns.

getoff,

In this state if you fire TOO FAR AWAY and you'll probably be going to the JOINT. (civilians operate with different rules than LEO'S, you're not an OFFICER OF THE LAW.)

While in the joint, you'll really learn knife fighting and self defense, or you will be carried out.

YOU MUST be in fear of imminent danger of substantial SERIOUS INJURY or DEATH to you or OTHERS. (the OTHERS can really open up a can of legal worms on interpretation of events)

YOUR interpretation of the facts may not be the same as Law Enforcement or a JUDGE/JURY.

STAND YOUR GROUND is not in effect everywhere or every place, and INCIDENTS HAVE VERY SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION.

Be Alert, Pay Attention, and be ready to Rapidly Exit the Troubled Area.

CALL 911, AND BE A GOOD WITNESS.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Consider the timing of this event... the Bad Guy will be closer to you than 21 feet when you finally clear leather and begin to shoot. In actuality he will likely be almost in contact. Therefore the idea that J's are not accurate at 7, 10, or 15 yards is irrelevant.

Up close and personal is a most common event.

BAD BREATH DISTANCES.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I saw that. But he was carrying hammer down over an empty chamber and had to rack the slide to get off a shot. I think he would have done better with a DA pistol or revolver.

What knife-wielding BG is going to announce his intent from 30 feet away?

Ding ding ding! The BG might be rubbing shoulders with you.

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Sure you did

I agree J frames can be sufficient as a BUG gun, if I did not, I wouldn't carry one for that role. I like mine a lot, it fills that role in much more comfortable way than anything else I've carried.

I also agree with the 21-30 foot rule. It does not take but once seeing a human being gutted, this time with a box opener, trying to hold their guts in to convince you of the threat a knife constitutes.

That said, I'm reading some of the 30 plus yard J frame comments with a twinkle in my eye...maybe you can, maybe, in a perfect environment. The 7 yd comment is aimed at the stress filled environment you are in when confronted with a deadly weapon and jerking the trigger rather than slowly engaging it as is done in stationary practice. I have seen a crime scene where two officers who were "good shots" in qualifying and a BG dropped 70 plus used pieces of brass within 4-7 yards of each other and no one got a scratch. The moral being adrenalin makes us all lesser shots.

Me personally, I want all the accuracy and round advantage I can get, which is why a J frame will never be my sole carry unless it's impossible to carry anything bigger.

As others have said, the more realistic J frame scenario is your J jammed in the guys gut going off while you are defending with your other arm. The guy's going to have 30-60 seconds of 100% performance unless Head or CS shot before your rounds affect him. Plan on defending and minimizing the damage, not dropping him and walking off untouched.

JMO YMMV.

Statesrightst, thta's good info, a lot of thta on this thread. But ref: the snubbie, I think we could mention that after the one shot- maybe you should try to move the muzzle, fire again, move muzzle fire again- the ol' fire til he drops...The more holes, the faster the ineternal bleeding puts him out. Not to mention more possibilities of hitting the spine, etc.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

The 21 foot rule assumes the BG is in full attack mode and you are not aware of his intent until he crosses that threshold. Part of the appeal of a small revolver esp with a covered hammer is that you can have your hand on it and even fire from your pocket.
My grandfather was a LEO for over 40 years and never had to draw his gun but he carried a J frame with a covered hammer in his overcoat pocket and there were many times he had someone covered but they never knew it.

J frame mindset: Get to the head as soon as possible. Then again, that should probably be the "any handgun" mindset as they are a, relatively speaking, weak weapon.

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Centennial Every Day

I've yet to see a quality-made handgun that doesn't have more inherent accuracy built into it than 99% of it's users will ever be able to get out of it. When you add in the stress of a dynamic, life-threatening encounter, that 99% figure goes down much closer to 0%. Comparing handgun accuracy at typical fighting distances when the operators are under severe stress has about as much practical value as comparing the impact of the color of the shirts those operators are wearing. In other words, the operator's mindset, skill level, physiological state, and amount of advance warning of the attack will have a lot greater bearing on the outcome of the event than will the inherent accuracy of the gun he/she is shooting.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

My 940 is more accurate @25 yards than my Glock 26, just gotta practice.

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Still got the shovel

Anyone who thinks a J-frame snub is only good for short range doesn't know Bob Munden ...

Bob Munden -- Impossible 200 Yard Shot - YouTube

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I'm with the banned ...

There's practiced range accuracy and then there's "HOLY ****" accuracy. The latter tends to be a little disappointing.

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Dem's fightin' words wabbit!!!

It does not make a difference whether you have a J or a K or a Glock or a Desert Eagle. The main problem is having the reaction times sufficient to recognize the threat, react by drawing your weapon and shooting. Your body is going to move in slo-mo initially and the BG will already have started his move toward you. You have to be able to react faster than you will ever realize. With the threat in your face you must be able to move in a fluid motion and hope nothing gets snagged. I was in three shootings and the distances varied from 4-30 feet. My anxiety level was so high that only by training was I able to get off the first shot, but I did each time. Another thing remember you will probably fire your weapon from no more than one foot in front of you instead of arms extended. If the BG is charging from 21 or even 28 feet there will not be enough time for a sight picture or to use your laser. You must practice and practice and then practice more. Oh yes then practice some more. Just because you can draw fast that alone does not ensure a shot to center mass.

DING! DING! DING!!!



Circle8 for the win!



.

This is so very true.

It is also true however; that some of us HAVE TO STAND OUR GROUND! What about the guy with crutches, or; in a wheel chair?

In my case, at the young and tender age of 62; running and attemping to flee is not an option. I've had both knees replaced, and a shoulder replaced. Additionally I have breathing difficulty due to suffering two massive pulmonary embolisms some time ago. I can walk OK, but I can't run.

Every thing you have said is also true.

I too carry a J frame as a BUG. Unlike you however, I carry one as a EDC in addition to the one as a BUG. It is what works best for me.

Having survived a gunfight in 1996, and after several reconstructive surgeries to my left hand; I now have only 50% grip strength, and one less finger. I can not "weak hand" shoot a semi auto in my left hand; nor operate the slide if I have a weapon malfunction. I can operate, shoot and reload any of my revolvers with either hand. Thus, I feel revolver(s) make the most sense for me.

I have a 7 shot 2¼" barrel 357 Magnum as my EDC gun in fall and winter; and a 5 shot snubby 357 J frame in spring and summer. I also have a 5 shot J frame 38 Special as my BUG. I carry both primaries with 357 Mag ammunition, all reloads, both speed loaders and speed strips; carry 38 Special for obvious reasons.

Just my $0.02 about what works for me.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

I carry a 642 as a back up weapon, both on and off duty. I qualify out to 25 yards.

How about the "1 in 1 billion gonna happen to you - rule"

I've heard the 21' Rule over 20 plus years ago. Took it for what it was, just another scenario that I put in the "toolbox". Does it change how I go about my daily life, no, not really. I don't walk around this world trying to keep a distance of 21' from any and everyone I see. It was and is intended for LEO's in the course of their duties to be prepared for this type of event and to keep aware of the dangers.
Read less, train more and stop worrying about things that most likely will never happen to you. We can all present "What if's" until we are blue in the face. The key is training and being aware.

Whoa there, step off that high horse for a second....

Not everyone is as street wise as you are. I think of the 21 foot rule as an wake up call for anyone who thinks someone a distance away isn't a threat.

Perhaps some kook pulls a knife in a crowd and a novice thinks 'well he can't hurt me he's a good 10 paces away...' Nope, wake up call! Someone can cover that ground before you could get a shot off....

Or maybe you walk in a bank that's being robbed and the robber turns and sees you. Can you get out the door or draw your gun? I follow a 30 foot rule, the length of my living room.... If Mr. Bad Guy is that close, I'm on high alert. Further away and maybe I'll just slink away without him noticing....

Not a "High Horse" whatsoever. I just don't worry about a 21" rule, or what ammo I shoot in my house for fear of over penetration, or whether or not I am "printing" or whether this new super duper self defense hollowpoint is better that the other brand. Nor do I worry about which Navy Seal lubricant is best this week or if a photographers vest makes me a target. Or if a CCW badge is a good idea (it's still not)
Shall I continue.......

Too much emphasis is put upon "what if" scenarios and internet gun forum lore. If you put all that emphasis into "TRAINING" and I mean actual training at the Range instead of throwing lead downrange you will be far better prepared than reading about a 21" rule here on the S&W Forum or whether or not a fanny pack makes you look gay (it does)

Amen szuppo!

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Bob

SR and Circle8...both great posts.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

I agree 110%!.

Just saying the 21' rule is nothing more than saying even when a guy is waaaaay over there, he can still get ya.

So practice that way and be aware of it. Expand your danger zone to something more than arm's reach. Seems like we agree.

We ran an interesting drill in one of our local matches. Shooter faces downrange with target at 5 yards. Runner stands 7 yards away and 90° to the left of shooter, and slightly behind. Runner then runs toward shooter with objective of touching shooter on back. Shooter waits until runner moves, then draws and engages target. Shooter wins if he hits target kill zone before being touched. Everyone gets a chance to be shooter or runner.

Approximate winning results:
Shooters - 20%
Runners - 80%

Maybe 40% of shooters got a shot off before being touched - at least half missed the kill zone. Nobody got a second shot off. Of the shooters that won, over half had "slow" runners. So maybe 10 % of the shooters were both fast and accurate enough to get an accurate shot off - and they likely would have gotten cut anyway.

This didn't prove a lot except maybe just outshooting the guy was not going to work very well. It has been my experience that nobody escapes getting cut in a knife fight - the winner is usually the guy that accepts that and manages to avoid lethal cuts while administering his own. Maybe the best way of handling a knife attacker is simultaneously fending off the knife while getting your gun into action, that is, defending the knife with your weak hand arm (use the outside of the arm) while point shooting with your strong hand - several times.

Buck

Training is good advise,.... not letting 'em get closer than 21' is good advise too. Know in YOUR mind what your plan is and whenever someone does have ill intentions towards you put your plan into action. Make haste slowly but react. Only YOU can save yourself.

The times when I ran this drill with a shock knife welding attacker for increased stress, the momentum would carry them into you. They are 3yds out before you even clear the holster. Best to backpedal and sidestep quickly while firing to arm extension.
This really pushes the envelope when you have a 5 shot pocket-carried gun.

Okay, with that said, anyone want to comment on motor nerve shot placement to shorten forward momentum?

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Bob

I've heard that the best way to drop someone was a shot to the
pelvic bone (hip/ waist area.) Keep in mind that if they have more
than a knife or a club, etc. they would still pose a serious threat.

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Ogy

If you think you are going to be able to shoot someone in a specific area during an encounter you are mistaken. You don't get a nice clean sight picture and time to place your shots in a nice tight group. Center mass until the threat no longer exists.

I share that situation with you, regarding in my condition I must stand my ground, so I consider myself fortunate to live in Texas with strong "Stand Your Ground" provisions. It is not designed to give someone the right to go looking for trouble, and is not likely to be changed. I too carry a J Frame for backup, a S&W 38 Spl airweight. In Texas if we are handicapped we do not have to wait for someone to assault us with their fists before warning them, drawing and acting in self defense. I do not intend to become a victim of being shot with my own guns. I would be apprehensive regarding living in states with a duty to retreat. Retreat is not an option for the handicapped nor for someone who is protecting another person who is also handicapped. Fortunately I have not yet been involved in a gunfight as a civilian. I am currently following a case in Dallas where someone with a permit acted to stop an attacker who was randomly attacking customers, and this attacker was unarmed. I believe in Texas that this will be no billed by the grand jury if it is prosecuted. In any case there will be significant legal expenses, and if one is not prepared for that, their choice is just to not carry. If a handicapped person with significant medical expenses is prosecuted and sent to the "joint" the cost to the State would be a lot more than the regular cost of maintaining inmates. I have not been to the "joint" but I have been in places worse.

Almost impossible to defend against an assassin.

Against other thugs, your judgment, training, and skills will come into play.

The 21-feet thing is just one of many issues to weigh.

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WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

Movies and tv are a joke on this. You always see a BG holding a gun on someone two feet away after already shooting someone and telling them how they are going to kill them etc. My chief was a old retired chicago street cop. He demostraited to me how quick he could take a gun away from you if you are in arms reach. Then he had me try it to him. I was/am a big slow type. Once you practice a little it works pretty good. Who ever movesw first is likely to win. Most of us already have seen yul brenner in a old western have a guy clap his hands when he supposedly see`s the other guy start to draw and how the guy will draw and have the barrel in between the guys hands before he can clap, right? It works! Well this is another version of that. If someone is dumb enough to hold a gun on you and is within arms reach it works well in reverse. You clap your hands over his gun but you do it with your hands offset. Assume you are right handed. Your left hand should be the hands width forward of your right hand as you clap them over the gun he is holding on you. Once you move you dont stop there but continue to follow through. Your left hand shoves his right hand away from the grip as your right hand pushs the barrel to your side away from you. He will not be able to hold the gun as it will break his trigger finger if he could.
Belive this or not I have seen this work sucessfully with a already cocked revolver! You will end up with the gun and the barrel will be in your right hand. Now if you want to get cute, its easy to also immediately swing it back and hit him alongside the head buffalowing him! I have seen this work! After doing this, you never will hold a gun on someone close, but will make them step back aways untill the cavery comes. I did just that one time to two guys.

Mas Ayoob encourages pelvic shots, but not as a specific target. He says the pelvis- and the privates- are excellent targets. Assuming you have time to display your weapon, he says nothing is a better deterrent than seeing a muzzle aimed at the privates. The problem with pelvic shots (remember they are essentially center-mass, just at the lower level) is you need to really damage the pelvic bone to make them drop. So many things to consider, like, a 22 probably isn't going to do enough damage to the pelvis to stop him- someone mentioned back-pedqaling when the attack comes, and that's strongly emphasized by SD instructors I've heard. I, too, have bad knees, shouldetrs, and need to be especially aware of surroundings. If aware enough, I hopefully can back-pedal fast enough to draw- and as I raise the pistol I will NOT wait til I get to heart-level- I will begin shooting at the knee-level probably, and fire as my gun-hand rises. Hit the thigh, the pelvis, the privates, the belly, the chest- obviously with that action you are risking what is behind your target. I don't know what I will actually do should the day come- but I do know I'm gonna try to be SA as much/often as possible. I know some have strong opinions about only shooting at the chest- I have heard ''experts' say different, and I think I'll listen to them.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

I see no one has considered the element of surprise, with you or with the BG.
Does make a difference.....

That's it in a nutshell. People too lazy/busy to practice.

I like to shoot. I retired from 20 years of LE about the same time I retired from the NG. I ran the marksmanship unit for the AK NG and was a firearms instructor with the Anchorage Police Dept. I like to shoot.

When I retired I wanted to move back to Wyoming and buy a place where I could shoot in my yard any time and as often as I wanted. I did and I do shoot quite a bit. I carry a 642 in my pocket (no holster) and I practice with it A LOT.

I've always been the type who walks around with my hands in my pocket. I still do.

I walk around my back yard range drawing and shooting shootgun hulls laying around. I even have shot some ICORE and Bullseye matches with my 642 (didn't win, but I've learned to shoot my pocket revolver).

As to the 21 rule; Never paid attention to it. Might as well be the 100 yard rule if one doesn't practice.

But I would consider the 21 foot problem being speed more then accuracy. How fast can a baNdit cover 21 feet vs. how long it takes you to get your revolver in action.

Using a shot timer, and my hand on my gun in my pocket, I like to keep my first shot about 1/2 second, hitting the "kill zone" in a target at 7 yards.

I just reciently got back from a road trip to Portland to visit my daughter. We went shooting. She asked if I was really as fast as Grandma says. (Grandma being wife, her step mother).

I handed her the shot timer and said "lets see". She got behind me and hit the button. When the "beep" went off I drew and fired. .45 seconds.

Another thing I like to practice, and deminstrated for her is drawing and firing when someone has the drop on you.

I had my daughter point her gun at her target, I told her to get ready, finger on the trigger, safety off, (remember she's pointing at her target), When she sees me start to draw she was to fire, the ideal was to see who gets the shot off first.

I ask her is she was ready, yeap, I told her I was going to draw, she said OK, I'm ready, I fired, she said she wasn't ready. I did this three times, and always got the shot off first.

This is while she was knowing what I was going to do, few bandits expect people to draw when the bandit has the drop on them.

Its really simple, its faster to act then re-act.

There is no trick. I'm 64 (will be 65 in 10 days), I'm not in shape. I AM NOT A PISTOL SHOOTER, mainly a rifle shooter, I have to work hard to keep half way dicent with a pistol or revolver.

This can be seen if you go to the matches we have, I shoot some sort of action pistol match every other week. Don't win much, I'm too slow, mainly in the reloading department. Accuracy isn't too bad, but I'm slow moving from target to target.

I do dry fire a heck of a lot.

The point being, its not 21 feet, its whether one wants to take the time and effort to practice. I'll admit, if I lived in town and had limited access to a range, I probably would be too lazy to go often.

As to where to shoot. Read Captain's Fairbairn - Sykes' book "Shoot to Live".

Fairbairn was the chief of the Shanghai Police dept when gangs ran the city. He was involved, one way or the other, in over 600 shootings.

Two things you will get from the book, bandits, when shot, even with a 45 seldom go down. There is no such thing as a guarinteed killing shot with a pistol.

The second thing is if one is "gut shot" though they may not die or stop right away, they normally drop what they have and grab their stomach.

We all know that if we've been hit in the stomach.

It ain't about the gun, its about what you do with it. Practice is the name of the game. You don't have to be young and in shape. I'm not. Besides being old, I have several stints in my blood vanes and have COPD. I ain't gonna last long in a fight, but I bet I can last 1/2 second.

I spend a lot of time attending my granddaughters' sporting events, vollyball, basketball, track, etc. Those young ladies are in shape and fast. The fastest of the lot can't cover 21 feet in 1/2 second.

As a side note, and un-related. I'm a firm believer that SD pistol/revover practice should be with one hand. In my LE career, and my time as an infantryman in Vietnam when I used a revolver or pistol, I can't remember a time where I was able to use two hands, something was always in the other hand, flashlight, door knob, mirror, something.

PRACTICE IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

With all due respect Captain, you will not be drawing and firing in 1/2 second walking through a crowded mall, looking at a bird in a tree or stepping out of your car. I am amazed with your speed, and it really is impressive (I'd like to try but I'm sure I will be WELL over a second to draw and fire with my hand already on the gun...) but we need to remember the element of surprise.

Bad guys often come out of nowhere. Purse snatchers are not seen running toward you. Bad guys sneak up on you sometimes. The 21 foot rule makes me think well outside my normal safety zone of 8-10 feet. That guy with the shifty eyes wearing a hoodie and dark glasses on the other side of the street? Yeah, he could be a problem. Look away for a second and he could turn and start sprinting toward you. And your hand may be pointing out a landmark while you hold a door for your daughter. Even if you got your gun and made a lethal shot, the bad guy can still live for 30 or 40 seconds without a heart.

I think it's great that you are practicing, and I will practice more too, but don't believe that a quick shot means you are safe within 30 feet... or maybe even 40 feet. But I DO believe you are more prepared than 98% of the people out there, including ME!

Thank you for your service, and for inspiring me to train a new way.

OK, lets assume you are correct and there is no "awarness" on my part.

Which would be better, to assume it can't be done and not practice, or you assume maybe you can pull it off so you constantly practice.

Of the two assumptions, which would give you a better chance of survival?

And the worse case, I mention I like to shoot, this pactice allows me to enjoy my sport.

Ok, from now on, if some guy is running at me from 21' away with a knife I'll just pull out my knife, extend my arm and let him impale himself.

Then I won't have to worry about shooting from too far away (legal issues), missing, etc. If he pulls up before impaling himself, then I'll be able to draw and get off the shot, unless of course he's running the other way.... Either way, its over.

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But then, what do I know?