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Old 06-25-2012, 06:12 PM
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Just curious how many out there actually carry a backup. I don't right now because I carry a Glock 19 and spare mag.. Do you carry in case your primary fails? In case aggressor takes it? I've thought about adding the lcr as a backup, but don't want to turn in Burt Gummer.

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Old 06-25-2012, 07:40 PM
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I always carry a BUG on duty, almost never off duty.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:51 PM
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On duty: I normally carry a Glock 33 (not a Smith I know) worn on the ankle. Spare magazines are on the other ankle in a Galco ankle safe. Off duty: I carry the Glock 33 in the same way and I also carry a 340 PD in my pocket with a second speed strip in the other pocket.

A few of our guys carry the LCP inside their vests or in a pocket holster. I applaud these guys because they just recently adopted the back-up, on duty carry. If I am going to carry the LCR, for the same size (roughly) I will take the mini-Glock any day. I am not knocking the LCR, but 5 more shots of .357 Sig......instead of five shots of .357 magnum in the LCR, well, you begin to understand where I am coming from now.

You really have to try to find the best place for you to carry the BUG on your person. There are pros/cons for anywhere you carry, but just remember a BUG is better than nothing (?)......nowhere......(?)

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Old 06-25-2012, 07:55 PM
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Good question, but for me, carrying a "back up" would be too much. Yes it would make sense/help if my primary malfunctioned, but what if I'm carrying a back up, and that also malfuctions on me. Should I carry a back up to my back up...etc..?

If you CCW a hang gun, then that gun should be of quality, and one should be maintaining the proper maintenance for it. Other wise whats the point


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Old 06-25-2012, 08:07 PM
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I don't realistically think I would carry one either. I need some comfort lol

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Old 06-25-2012, 08:37 PM
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I don't realistically think I would carry one either. I need some comfort lol

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Exactly, unless there was a zombie outbreak....lol
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:55 PM
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I carry two guns. The second is not necessarily a BUG but.....A second gun.

If the front jeans pocket or jacket pocket, I have an immediate indisputable advantage over having to draw from concealment.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:57 PM
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I carry 2 guns, unless I'm going into a really bad area, then maybe 3. I know of multiple situations where guys got killed because their primary failed or they were trying to reload and the stress made them too slow.
Odds are, you'll never need the first gun, but you don't carry a gun for probabilities, but possibilities.

642's were made for front pocket carry, then the primary is no big deal. Two gun carry is no big deal or strain. A 3" .357 and a 642 for example are a great combo. The primary can use the 642 ammo. One of my favorite summer combos is a 6906 and a 642.

The BUG is insurance, it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the trouble of it or not. I'm into being prepared to the hilt, but that's just me.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:28 PM
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Some people don't feel they need a little extra insurance. Those are the same folks that make fun of and ridicule those of us that do. I getting a little tired of it myself.

Just because someone was a cop for umpteen years or super duper ex soldier doesn't mean they have all the answers. Problem is some of them think they do. They don't.

I've learned over the years that there are very few "experts" in any field. An expert knows it all. Very few people know it all. They merely think they do.

My life experience an my current physical condition dictate what and how I do it. Not some expert or former somebody.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:39 PM
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I carry 2 guns, unless I'm going into a really bad area, then maybe 3. I know of multiple situations where guys got killed because their primary failed or they were trying to reload and the stress made them too slow.
Odds are, you'll never need the first gun, but you don't carry a gun for probabilities, but possibilities.

642's were made for front pocket carry, then the primary is no big deal. Two gun carry is no big deal or strain. A 3" .357 and a 642 for example are a great combo. The primary can use the 642 ammo. One of my favorite summer combos is a 6906 and a 642.

The BUG is insurance, it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the trouble of it or not. I'm into being prepared to the hilt, but that's just me.
I'm the same way. I figure it will be just my luck that I will need more than 5 or 6 rounds or more than one gun.

I frequently carry two j frames and a reload for each. Why? One reason is my wife has no desire to carry but she can shoot my j frames well. So I can hand one to her if needed.

We are caring for her father (alzheimer's). I'm only one man and I may not be able to protect them both when out in public. So my wife may have to.

Frankly, I fail to understand people that settle for what they feel is "good enough" based on PAST experience. As we get older past experience will give you wisdom and some foresight. But physically things WILL be much different.

I would rather be over prepared.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
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Some people don't feel they need a little extra insurance. Those are the same folks that make fun of and ridicule those of us that do. I getting a little tired of it myself.

Just because someone was a cop for umpteen years or super duper ex soldier doesn't mean they have all the answers. Problem is some of them think they do. They don't.

I've learned over the years that there are very few "experts" in any field. An expert knows it all. Very few people know it all. They merely think they do.

My life experience an my current physical condition dictate what and how I do it. Not some expert or former somebody.
Understandable, and just for the record my "zombie" comment was not ment as a stab at people who do carry more then one gun, nor do I feel like I'm a "expert"....etc

I'm sure in different states, and different areas whre people might live, it might be more necessary than other places. I live in south FL, and I personally feel like I do not "need" to carry more then one gun. Maybe its because of the area I live/work in. I can tell that if I lived in the area that I grew up in, in NY, I would be carrying 2 guns.....
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:00 PM
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Some people don't feel they need a little extra insurance. Those are the same folks that make fun of and ridicule those of us that do. I getting a little tired of it myself.

Just because someone was a cop for umpteen years or super duper ex soldier doesn't mean they have all the answers. Problem is some of them think they do. They don't.

I've learned over the years that there are very few "experts" in any field. An expert knows it all. Very few people know it all. They merely think they do.

My life experience an my current physical condition dictate what and how I do it. Not some expert or former somebody.
You are right, it won't be long before we see the usual I live in a dream state so I don't need a BUG or the proverbial I wouldn't go anyplace I might need two guns stupidity. Some of us don't have that luxury. I'm always finding myself working in bad areas. East St.Louis, 9th ward etc it comes with the territory...so a one size fits all answer is inappropriate.

My thought is do what makes you comfortable, I'm not going to down you for carrying only one gun, but that does not mean it's the right decision for everyone else. Do your thing, I'll do mine. JMO.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:01 PM
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Understandable, and just for the record my "zombie" comment was not ment as a stab at people who do carry more then one gun, nor do I feel like I'm a "expert"....etc

I'm sure in different states, and different areas whre people might live, it might be more necessary than other places. I live in south FL, and I personally feel like I do not "need" to carry more then one gun. Maybe its because of the area I live/work in. I can tell that if I lived in the area that I grew up in, in NY, I would be carrying 2 guns.....
Well said...I appreciate a flexible thinking person.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:05 PM
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Two guns. For the most part I can carry two guns with two different ways of drawing them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:25 PM
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I carry a bug. G26 on my ankle.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:45 PM
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Occasionally - probably 20% of the time. When I carry 2, it's usually a G26 + a J Frame. Sometimes 2 J Frames.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:47 PM
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Well said...I appreciate a flexible thinking person.
, theres another thread about carrying a bug for a bug. (1 = none, 2 = one, & 3 = enough) or something like that.

They also talk about carrying a knife and flash light. Thats just WAY over the top for my life style. I go to school in the morning, and work at a private school during the day/night.

For A LOT of you guys that live in the mid west states..etc, and own a truck..etc, and live in a area where the population isn't "a alot", AND go hunting on a weekly basis, then YES, I can this this not being a problem.....
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:25 AM
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I habitually carry two guns off duty as well as on. A model 60 rides in my left back pocket for a draw with my weak hand if needed. This is in addition to whatever else I am carrying as a primary. I also carry a pocket knife (always have) and a pelican 1910 flashlight. I don't notice the light at all because it is so small.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:53 AM
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I always carry a Kel Ted p 11 9mm and a Kel Ted p3at .380 everywhere except into work and stick model 10 HB .38 in the car every morning but I have 3 children and live in a pretty bad area so I follow the "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" way of thinking
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:04 AM
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One at a time Oh yea plus a 3 blad old timer
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:25 AM
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Personally I choose to carry only one EDC weapon, a 9mm M&P Shield. While I recognize and appreciate that others feel the need to carry a BUG, I don't personally find it necessary to carry a backup. Unfortunately my circumstance is also complicated by the fact that my employers are highly ANTI-GUN so I have to lock mine up before heading into the workplace (in my case it's better to be unarmed than unemployed in this lousy economy).

If I did choose to carry a BUG I'd likely double up with my alternate EDC weapon, a Colt GM .380, in an ankle holster. The GM .380 is small but very accurate...
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
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Just curious how many out there actually carry a backup. I don't right now because I carry a Glock 19 and spare mag.
You'll wish you did if that Glock ever chokes. Semi-autos and spare mags don't negate the potential need/desire to carry a BUG.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:46 AM
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One night for a test outing I carried 4; a Para Carry3.25 (45) iwb, an old 49Bodyguard in front pants pocket, a Tomcat on left ankle and a LCP in coat chest pocket. I was not weighed down. I was/am recovering from a stroke, and realize I can no longer use my size and strength to defend my wife and self, so 2 things 1) wife is now CCW and 2) I often carry a bug also many people know I carry, the BUG in seldom ever mentioned!
P.S. I don't like feel of ankle holsters- but they work(except when wearing shorts). Ivan
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:17 AM
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Always carry a backup, when traveling in car i may have 3 on me, 4 if the wife is carrying. Along with 2 knifes, max length of coarse. You never know who you might run into.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:59 AM
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I carry two guns always, often three guns. Not for back up, but for access.

I carry a Glock 23 on my right hip.

The problem with belt carry (and especially pocket carry) is that the weapon is difficult to access when seated (especially when belted in the car). On the other hand, ankle carry is easy access when seated.

Note: If you are seated (especially in the car) you might as well have left your gun at home if it is in your pocket. It will be nearly impossible to access.

But ankle carry alone is not a good solution. To access from the ankle while standing is slow and puts you in a vulnerable position.

The answer, of course, is to carry both ankle and hip (or pocket).

Both should be of good service calibers. One is not a backup for the second, but it is an alternative.

So right now I have a Glock 23 on my hip, and a Glock 27 on my ankle. Both in .40 caliber.

Also a S & W 340PD in my pocket. No spare ammo though.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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The only time I ever carried more than one gun was when I was deployed, an M-16 with basic load and a 1911 with as many mags as I could get my hands on. Unless you're a LEO or on a security team protecting gold, diamonds or VIP's, why would you need more than one? Seems to me it gets to a point where carrying 2-3 guns and ammo for them becomes more of a hindrance than advantage. If I found myself in a spot where I needed more than one piece, my primary would be either my Remington 870 or DPMS AR-15a2. I'd have my full size M&P along, (17+1, two spare mags), but it would be strictly secondary.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:27 PM
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If I can't get to my primary for whatever reason, I can get to my alternate (perhaps a better term than "back up"). The odds of either of my revolvers malfunctioning are slim, but I can draw the second one faster than I can reload.

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Old 06-26-2012, 01:37 PM
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I carry 100% of the time where legal (even around the house), and I do carry at least one reload and a flashlight. (Majority of defense scenarios are in low light as we all know). I occasionally carry a second gun, usually a J-frame in an ankle holster, but not often. I do like Packards argument for doing so and feel like I should do it more often, I just find the ankle holster itchy and uncomfortable after a long day. I rarely have occasion to find myself in what would be considered a "bad" area. If I were LEO I would definitely always carry a BUG.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:39 PM
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Basically if you are a LEO a BUG would be prudent and wise. As a civilian, I feel comfortable with one. Civilians are not required to go into harms way as a way of making a living, and also are not thought of as being armed to those who do not know them.

I feel more comfortable with my designated carry weapon that I practice a lot with and at least one extra reload than I would with two separate weapons (especially if they are not identical). Confusion and fumbling when seconds count is not a good thing!

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Old 06-26-2012, 02:04 PM
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I carried two firearms for 25 years working and still feel Nekked without two firearms now. It may not work for everyone but it works for me.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:28 PM
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I only carried a backup gun for a week due to extenuating circumstances. My normal carry piece is a combat modified by me Colt Gold Cup .45 series 70 (Yes I know BOO HISS BOO this is a S&W forum) Its normally carried inside pants holster on my strong side with 2 spare mags with appropriate social use type ammo.

I was working doing a favor for my buddy keeping his gas station open evenings till 11 PM. till he could find a permanent employee to run it. That work period just happened to occur at the same time frame 10 bad news people including 4 murderers broke out of the jail which as the crow flies was only a couple miles away. The garage was located just at the edge of town and that garage was the only thing open after 7 for about a ½ mile in either direction. A good place to hit for a crew like that.

For that time frame I also carried a well proved out Walther PPK .380 in an ankle holster. All was well the cons were caught, one only a short distance away and the rest in the next couple of weeks.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:16 PM
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Default I carry 2

I carry a 642 with Crimson trace with +p's Front pocket and a Sigma .40 with Crimson Trace. Iwb. OR i swap out the .40 for a Shorty .45 OWB. Sometimes I put a extra belt just on the holster and that allows me to use an OWB holster like a IWB IF I want! i AM 65 , can't run due to hamstring injury and have to carry Oxygen Tank everywhere I go. Due to my age and disabilities makes me a easy target. SO i don"t DO reloads, I just pull the "OTHER" gun..
642 is primary.. .40-.45 BUG. (Vietnam Vet.)
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:23 PM
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One all the time,two some of the time,but rarely.
Depends on where I may be going.Went to a funeral today at a church 1/4 mi. from my house. Only had a sodbuster pocketknife. Didn't know I had that until it fell out of my pocket whern I took my suit coat off.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:41 PM
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One thing about civilians carrying a back-up or alternate handgun that hasn't been discussed: Police have radios and can call for backup (more police) if they don't like their situation. Civilians don't have backup a radio call away. We are our own backups.

Just sayin'.

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Old 06-26-2012, 08:58 PM
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Kanewpaddle:

I am no expert and I don't pretend to be one on the internet.

I will tell you that cops and soldiers that have been on the job for so long have experience, however similar or different for that matter. Experience counts.....a bit......

So, please understand the only gospel of any knowledge (for myself) comes from the man above....

TAKJR
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:09 PM
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My NAA Black Widow with Chong Vang grips always rides in my right front pocket. My other guns varies by mood/situation - Colt DS or Cobra, Smith 649, Smith 442, Smith 36, Glock 17 (when I travel through North Philly to take my daughter to Children's Hospital), Kahr PM9, etc....but always the Widow!
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:19 PM
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I carry every gun I own, all at the same time.*













* I only own one gun.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:43 PM
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I carry one, with one reload. Crime in my area is low. On the few occasions when I have had to investigate a strange event on my property then a handgun becomes my bug and a long gun becomes my primary. My hat is off to those civilians who can regularly carry two or more. I find carrying one gun difficult at times.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranch Hand View Post
I carry a 642 with Crimson trace with +p's Front pocket and a Sigma .40 with Crimson Trace. Iwb. OR i swap out the .40 for a Shorty .45 OWB. Sometimes I put a extra belt just on the holster and that allows me to use an OWB holster like a IWB IF I want! i AM 65 , can't run due to hamstring injury and have to carry Oxygen Tank everywhere I go. Due to my age and disabilities makes me a easy target. SO i don"t DO reloads, I just pull the "OTHER" gun..
642 is primary.. .40-.45 BUG. (Vietnam Vet.)
Ranch Hand you bring up the very good point of your physical condition. This may be the single biggest factor in someone's choice of what they wear, how many guns etc...

With the oxygen tank and lack of mobility you are a "Stand and Deliver" kind of guy now. It sounds as if you recognize this and have adjusted for it. I see this as a good course of action. Identify weaknesses and compensate for them.

I say you carry what and how many of whatever makes you feel comfortable. Nobody knows what anybody else is going to need or what situation they will be in.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAKJR View Post
Kanewpaddle:

I am no expert and I don't pretend to be one on the internet.

I will tell you that cops and soldiers that have been on the job for so long have experience, however similar or different for that matter. Experience counts.....a bit......

So, please understand the only gospel of any knowledge (for myself) comes from the man above....

TAKJR
I understand.

I apologize if I came across wrong. I was a little grouchy the other night.

The word "expert" is source of contention with me. Probably because I've met so many of them.

I am surely no expert myself. And I don't ever want to come across as one. I've carried concealed for 30 years but didn't carry daily until 20 years ago. And I'm still learning and refining the process.

I have three friends that own area gun shops. I worked at one a couple years part time. It was great and I learned much. But I also met some of the sorriest buttheads that ever carried a gun.

And they were all "experts". "I'm ex military so I know what I'm doing" Or "my dads a cop". PLEASE!!

Ive seen and heard some of the stupidest comments and remarks in gunshops.

I worry more about these "experts" just as much as I do bad guys. I don't want to get shot by accident!

And most frustrating is that when you get a concealed pistol license from this state, there is a reference to the Revised Code of Washington which tells you all the do's and dont's. You think they read it? No.

Sorry for the rant. I just wish people would understand and realize how serious this is. If they did, we would't have so many accidental shootings.

And us "older" guys must realize that relying on past experience is smart, but failure to adapt to an ever changing world is not.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeb21 View Post
I carry one, with one reload. Crime in my area is low. On the few occasions when I have had to investigate a strange event on my property then a handgun becomes my bug and a long gun becomes my primary. My hat is off to those civilians who can regularly carry two or more. I find carrying one gun difficult at times.
Ain't that the truth. And you don't hear people mention how much of a pain it is very much. But it is a pain isn't it?

I used to think that if a person didn't carry two or more guns they were just plain lazy and not serious.

That was a long time ago and now that I'm older and still have some brain cells left, I see where I was wrong.

I live in the Seattle metro area. It ain't a nice place. Any given day, I can be in downtown Seattle or up in the mountains and I feel that I need to carry some fire power.

I've been bit twice and assaulted twice. They weren't real serious incidents but couldn't have been.

One way or another, I'm going home at the end of the day. If someone steps over the imaginary line in the sand, they won't like the outcome.

But that's me. If I lived in Sleepy Hollow, maybe I wouldn't feel the need to carry more than one gun.

Actually, it's a shame that we have to carry guns in the first place.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:10 PM
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Kanewpaddle:

No apology necessary. I have had many "experiences" both with other cops and gun/gun shop "experts" that I have crossed paths with that make me cringe too. In any profession, there are people that have degrees in their minds, rather than on paper, and "this gun is better than that gun" or "shoot them and drag them inside"......statements/mentality/comments are abundant. I know. I hear it all the time.

For myself, I carry what I feel is comfortable for me. I don't knock any gun (unless it is real junk) or caliber for anyone else.

I once went to a local range and when the attendant handed me my target holder, the first words out of his mouth were: "If you shoot the metal clip, it will cost you fifty cents!"
To say I was pissed at that statement.....was an umderstatement. Had I not wanted to shoot so bad, I would have returned the holder, spoken to the manager, and demanded my range fee back. I am no Jerry Michulek, but I don't hit target clips either. I have not been back at that range, ever since.

I once had a woman see me read a gun magazine at a local 7-11 while I was in uniform. She was in shock that I read those "kind" of magazines. I told her it is my life on the line and it is my right to read them. She looked at me a "second" time and left the store.

I also had an offender laugh at me when he saw me remove my ankle gun and place it in a gun locker, prior to entering the lockup. He could not believe that I was "that" paranoid of a cop.

Paraniod or not, I intend to keep on living and I don't plan on treating so-called "experts" as Gods either.

That's why I feel experience counts....a little.

Sincerely.......

TAKJR
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:19 PM
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And one more thing..........

I was a small arms repairman instructor at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland, in the U.S. Army many.....many years ago. Never......ever did we ever.....have anyone suggest (or stated one ever needs to do this) that you need full-length pipe cleaners to clean out the gas tube (which are sold today) for the M16..A1..M4...series rifles. If there was EVER a problem with one EVER....it was simply replaced.

Hint: I NEVER needed to replace one in the field, way back when.

I understand changing with the times, but to sell anything to make a buck today?

Full-length guide rods for the 1911?

That's another money maker..........but not for me....obviously......

Amazing...but experience does count (saving you pennies for other things......).

Ok....I apologize. I forgot this is the Smith & Wesson forum.

A piston-driven AR....that's cool! A POSITIVE sign of the times.

TAKJR

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Old 06-27-2012, 06:26 PM
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I typically carry more than one, but I always tell each gun, she's "the only one for me".

A jealous gun is a dangerous gun.
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:07 PM
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I typically carry more than one, but I always tell each gun, she's "the only one for me".

A jealous gun is a dangerous gun.
Sweet talk her. Tell her everything will be fine.
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:35 PM
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I have carried two handguns for over 35 years. I feel naked without my second handgun which is most often a 5 shot S&W 38. From time to time if the situation warrants it I also carry a rifle or shotgun in the car depending on where I am going or threats in the area. I would rather have the extra weapon and not need it, than need it and not have it.
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:39 PM
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Thumbs up Always two---or more

Today a 296 and a 642. Tomorrow? Because I have been a little puny since radiation treatments in the spring, mostly carrying Ti guns in 44 Spec or Mag or 45ACP for primary. My 625-10 has seen some carry time lately too.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:48 PM
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I spent over 30 years on the Job. I carried at least 2 handguns every day, from the first day I Graduated the Academy, till the day I retired.

This included evfen when I was carryijng a rifle as my "primary" weapon, I always had 2 handguns.

Now that I am retired I still never leave the house with out 2 handguns on my person.

I carry a rifle in the vehicle and an extra handgun as well, as a lot of bullets.

Guns are TOOLS, designed to do a task.

For me that task is to save my life.

IF it ever becomes necessary I want to have the Tools on hand to do the job.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:02 PM
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Only one for right now, if there was a situation in my area such as riots etc, I may carry more. If others want to carry 2 or more all the time, that's a judgement they make based on their situation, more power to them.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:08 PM
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NE450No2:

You are a man after my own heart. I met a Chicago tactical officer once who was giving our (suburban) department some advice on how to investigate a triple-homicide that occurred in our town (in the Denny's Parking lot) in a well-off suburb.....NOT the West-side of Chicago! Imagine that! I was the officer-in-charge that evening and the paperwork that followed (along with the extensive investigation) was mind-boggling (to say the least). My first words to him when I saw him wearing two firearms were......"Two guns.......my man!" His response to me was......"Yup! Reloading sucks!"

Anything you do to increase your odds of coming home.......is paramount.

Ever watch the cable show "Gangland?" How many guns do you see the bangers carry, stash, or hide in a dope house?

If I can carry grenades......I would.

The era of gunfighting has not past. Bangers do it every day, without hesitation. Innocents are always victims. More African American criminal offenders kill innocent African American citizens than ever before. More innocent Mexican citizens are killed in Mexico by Mexican criminal offenders (normally Mexican drug cartel members) than ever before.

We need more people with the mind-set like yourself, or like (the gone but not forgotten) Bill Jordan, Jim Cirillo......etc., etc. They were "gunfighters" that fought for lives of honest, "law-abiding" citizens. They killed because they up-held laws, not denegrated the laws.

Yes.....I said "killed," not "stopped." Lets face the music.

Some people think Ted Nugent is crazy. Nope. He is a true American that believes in the right to self-defense from pure-scum of society, period.

Did you ever see the "Sons of Guns" episode where he visted their shop? They gave him a custom 1911 as a present and as they attempted to present it to him, Ted (politely) produced about four guns from his person.

So........beware of men that know how to use their tools.....(no pun intended.)

Thanks for your service in law enforcement.

When I finally retire...... I will still have a bunch of guns......and my dog....always at my side.

"You are either b a sheep...or a wolf." (From the movie Training Day.)

TAKJR

Last edited by TAKJR; 07-03-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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