That's most worthless excuse I ever heard.

There's no such thing as an AD and if you keep your stinkin finger off the trigger, you won't have such problems.

No excuse in the world will substitute proper, basic gun handling skills.

People that don't carry with one in the chamber can't blame their decision on the gun. They can only blame what they don't have between the ears.

Come on folks! I ain't that freakin hard! If your going to do something, DO IT RIGHT!

If I may chime in..

I thought carrying a 1911 in condition one was dangerous.

My lack of knowledge was the culprit.

A woman gives a most excellent explanation how safe it really is.

Please watch this if you are not familiar with the 1911.

Conditions of Readiness for the 1911 - YouTube

I carry my SR9C loaded and safety on.

When I carry my 686, every chamber is loaded.

There are times when it is appropriate to carry "empty chamber."

Anyone that insists on one method and one method only of carrying is stuck inside the box.

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Centennial Every Day

IMHO, a defensive draw with a firearm should be able to be performed quickly and efficiently with one hand, as well as require as few "steps" as possible. Not only does carrying with an empty chamber require more steps to bring the firearm into action, but it also requires two hands or an awkward operation (against a belt, teeth, etc.) to charge. Risky at best.

I primarily carry a 1911 or a double-action handgun, and I always carry with a round "in the pipe" and with the safety on if it is a single-action. Of course, in the case of a DA revolver, there is always a round in the chamber

Times when it's appropriate to carry "empty chamber" do not include when carrying for self defense.

And yes, I insist that's the only method you can use. If you don't, I'm going to get back in my box and hold my breath until you do.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Semi Auto
Chambered round
Full magazine
Spare magazine

Why is this even being discussed??????

I can safely say there is no way in heck my Ruger LC9 is going to misfire. Maybe if it were dropped off of a building and landed just right -- the safety (which I use) plus long, fairly hard trigger pull, make it pretty darned safe. It's hammer-fired, and the hammer is recessed. Then there are things like the pop-up round indicator.

I don't care for the trigger myself, but there's no worry whatsoever of a ND.

If you are somebody paranoid of carrying with a round in the chamber, but still want to, I cannot recommend the LC9 enough. It's not a range gun, but it will do the job within 7 yards easily. That's all I care about.

...the last two paragraphs of Skeeter Skelton's
article...

...and from today's news...

Click Here

He's just an idiot. 1) A gun needs to be in a proper holster with retention. This is why i think pocket carry is a bad idea. 2) when you pick up a gun or handle one DO NOT grab it by the trigger! Another bad idea. 3) if you want to carry old guns that were iffy designed even for their time (Steyr Hahn, Nambu, and a lot of other turn of the century guns) dont be surprised if you shoot yourself or others. Just because it was made doesnt mean it was a good idea.


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I believe the late Jeff Cooper once said "“Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.”

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

How about some more;

"Unless you are one of the unfortunates who is forced to wear a decorative pistol with an unloaded magazine, there are three possible conditions in which to carry your 1911.

Condition Three. Chamber empty, hammer down. This requires you to manually cycle the slide before firing. To return the gun to its carry position after firing, you have to drop the magazine, empty the chamber, drop the hammer, reload and reinsert the magazine, all without shooting an innocent bystander. Condition Three is the slowest-into-action of any method of carrying a 1911 and, as such, is a dangerous concession to those whose nervous systems are conditioned to revolvers whose hammers are always at rest when not in use and which are not equipped with the operator-controlled safety systems of the 1911.

Condition Two. Chamber loaded, hammer down. This requires you to cock the hammer with your thumb before firing. It also requires you to very carefully pull the trigger and lower the hammer over a loaded chamber before returning the gun to its holster. The technique for manipulating a Condition Two carry is best practiced out in the country in a freshly plowed field, where the bullets will not ricochet off the pavement or the occasional rock every time you re-holster your gun.

Condition One. Cocked and locked. Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, thumb safety on. This requires you to snick the safety down before firing and snick it back up when you’re finished. Simple. And as safe as any mechanical safety can possibly make a gun, which is to say as safe as is consistent with practical readiness. Condition One is the fastest way to get your 1911 into action, the least prone to mistakes, and therefore the only way to go."

Jeff Cooper

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I think it was the holster in this case.

...let's talk risk reward...

...for being in the "highest state of practical readiness" ...the gentleman in the Sparks movie theatre now probably faces...

...thousands in medical bills...hopefully he has insurance that will cover it...

...a probable lawsuit by the theatre chain...especially if he carried past a "No CCW Allowed" sign...(yes a private property owner has the right to disallow CCW)...

...Individual lawsuits from everyone in the theatre for endangering their lives...

...loss of his CCW at least temporarily...I'm guessing permanently...

...if he is charged and convicted of a crime with a possible sentence of over one year...he loses his right to keep and bear arms permanently...

...all because he had to be in the "highest state of practical readiness"...

I'm sorry, but did you find out what kind of handgun the guy was carrying? Semi auto, revolver, cap and ball? and yes, he probably faces all those things you describe. Our actions always come with consequences, good or bad.

So far, nothing youve said or cited changes the truth. A 1911 style pistol should be carried cocked and locked.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Right. The ND that injured the carrier in Sparks is because he is a dullard. He deserved what happened and all the consequences (although a civil suit from the theater is a really low risk). He needs a severe beating with his clown shoes.

I carry a pistol in my pocket almost every day, but in a holster designed for that purpose. I carried a 1911 as a duty and off duty pistol for several years. No problems occurred. The ONLY ND I ever had was on a range in a controlled environment trying a technique that sucked for me; because of the setting it did not create a safety hazard, and it was still my fault. That was well over 20 years ago, and I still remember how stupid it was.

If you are not ready for a fight when you put that gun on, put it back in the safe and do without. There may be a time and a place to carry a sidearm without one in the chamber and a full magazine (or cylinder), but those will be rare times at the most. I cannot think of any time in my life it would have been appropriate.

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NHI, 10-8.

BTW, MY 1911 hasn't gone off without me wanting it to in 30+ years. How do you explain that? Luck? or possibly discipline, training and practise?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

mine has been well behaved too. Thats beside the point in the Sparks case. We don't know what his gun was

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it just needs more voltage

Agreed. Using that as an example for not carrying cocked and locked was a bit of a reach. The only way I can come up with to make a 1911 fire when dropped is to carry it with a round in the chamber, hammer down.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

thats certainly one way. "but" we are already running in to story changes ... early reports say he dropped it, later reports are that he sat on it which brings inadvertent trigger manipulation ala glock into play. Im thinking it was some flavor of 380 though. claims that he transported himself to an ER thereafter have remained unchanged.

if it weren't for the lousy timing .. it might be kinda funny

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it just needs more voltage

Well, Jim, that's a bit longer than I carried mine, but I would have to agree with you and the gist of what Jeff Cooper said - cocked and locked is the safest and most effective way to carry a 1911 if you want to have any chance of coming out of a gunfight alive. I just don't understand how people can think they will necessarily have time, or even a second hand to cycle the slide. The only reason to draw a firearm on someone is if you are in imminent danger of being killed. I've been in a life and death encounter only once, and it made me realize a couple things. One is that some people will try to take your life even if you give them no reason at all to. Secondly, in that situation, milliseconds can make all the difference. People need to learn how to use their weapons if they are going to carry, learn and pay attention to safety rules, and they need to carry a round in the chamber. To me, to do otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the realities of the situation.

Well, I was typing faster than I was thinking. It should read 30+ years, not 40. Heck, Im not that old!

But your right. Ive never understood why people feel it necessary to rewrite doctrine. It always bothers me because they write this hocum up, and some folks get ALL their knowledge from the web. Its a great disservice at least, and dangerous at the worst.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

This is the problem with mental midgets who want to CC. They just buy whatever they think is cool or comfortable and think its good enough or just as good. This thought process should not be used around guns. TV, laptops, jeans...sure maybe.....but not weapons. They dont bother to read up on how different guns have different applications and function. Ive talked a few people out of carrying certain guns because they were never designed for modern day CC and SD. They were designed as a sidearm for an officer and a last resort for a battle from 80 years ago. For all we know this guy could have been carrying a Tokarev or a more modern compact 9mm version, the M88. Neither are meant to carry one in the chamber because there is no safety and with the hammer down its resting on the firing pin which is resting on the primer. Modern guns, polymer or not, do not go off just willy nilly. And I dont care how many safeties the other guns have, they are stupid and useless. They can break, be deactivated accidentally, malfunction you name it it can happen. There are only 2 safeties that are most important on a gun.

1st safety....is what is located between the owners ears. If the owner cant rub two brain cells together to properly understand how his firearm functions and what he needs to do to carry it, if at all, he or she should not be buying firearms.(This is not rocket science people) There are a lot of smaller sub sections to this like knowing what type of holster works best for a particular firearm, how to PROPERLY wear that holster and when to junk it. How to dress around a gun as opposed to buying a gun around your dress. (there are compromises)

2nd safety......is the said owner's booger hook. Thats right, keeping fingers off of triggers solves 99% of NDs

All the other mechanical safeties are there just to fill that small percent between the first 2 safeties and the unforeseen

Every gun i CCW carry is ready to rock n roll within a split second the gun is unholstered. Having a very short window for a quick shot could save your life in a bad situation. I do prefer a CZ pistol with the double action on the first shot but i do carry the 1911's time to time with one in the pipe.

There have been more accidents with unloaded, unchambered guns. I carry one way and only one way its chambered, cocked and locked with my 1911's. My CZ's allow me to carry with the hammer half way down its locked in that position till i run the double action then its semi auto after that first round goes off. I know my CCW gun is loaded all the time. Never change between chambered and not chambered its a train wreck waiting to happen. I haven't had a problem in 40 years with my CCW carry.

CZ or 1911, the principle is the same. Due to living in Illinois, I am no longer able to carry anything, unfortunately. I did for many years and put a lot of thought, training, and practice into it. A self defense concealed carry gun is a personal choice, but, in my opinion, if a person has chosen a gun for that role that is dangerous to carry with a round in the chamber, they need to rethink their choice, as that is not a suitable gun for concealed carry.

When you're on a range and range rules or the range officer so instruct.

I can think of no other, certainly no other where there's even the SLIGHTEST possibility that I might need to defend myself from unlawful deadly force.

There are certain situations where holster carry is not the best option. Those that have been there, know what I'm talking about. If your gun is a striker fired, no manual safety gun like a Glock, empty chamber becomes a better option.

I understand that very few will agree with me on this and that's OK. Not many, fortunately, are put into the types of situations where this mode of carry is called for.

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Centennial Every Day

When would holster carry NOT be the best option?

kanew said "That's most worthless excuse I ever heard.

There's no such thing as an AD and if you keep your stinkin finger off the trigger, you won't have such problems."

I immediately thought- yes, that's why they technically call it a ND these days. Ayoob says he never calls 'em ADs anymore- and I'm pretty sure he had one, too.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

Someone once told me that there are those who have had an ND, and there are those that will. Sorry, but I'm not that pessimistic and it sounds like a sorry excuse when you do have one. I have no trouble keeping my finger off the trigger.

We all live by a set of rules. If you can't follow those simple rules, don't play with guns.

A carry gun with a 3lb trigger?? IMHO that is not a proper carry gun...

My Glock 19 and Glock 22 have 3.5lb. connectors.

They don't go off unless you pull the trigger.

You can't pull the trigger without drawing them.

You shouldn't be drawing unless you mean to shoot.

He is not likely to face any of these consequences here in Nevada. No a private property owner does not have the right to disallow CCW under Nevada law.

Ken

I carry a revolver and have 11 rounds immediately available...because I carry two revolvers. When I carried an M1911A1, it was cocked and locked with a round in the chamber. When I carried an M9, it was on safe with a round in the chamber. When I carried a CZ-75, it was cocked and locked. When I carried a Glock, there was a round in the chamber. With a Glock the holster must cover the trigger guard and be hard sided. (I used a Kramer horsehide IWB holster.)

ECS

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

I always carry with a bullet in the chamber, to each their own!

...what do you do with the rest of the cartridge?...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

I don't get the empty chamber argument. Bad guys are not in the habit of giving a lot of warning when they are about to attack.
When you are in the parking lot of Walmart and three or more thugs seem to come out of the woodwork you had better have one in the chamber. If they catch you off guard, you may not even have time to draw, much less rack the slide. But leave the chamber empty if you wish, it doesn't matter to me.

*
About the only one I that comes to mind is undercover cop where using a holster would draw attention if discovered.

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NHI, 10-8.

I carry my CZ 82 chambered, it has the double action first shot then it's semi auto after that. I carry my 1911 hammer locked back and chambered.
I do prefer my auto to be double action.

Down at Thunder Ranch years back, Clint Smith had our class practice one-hand chambering drills, strong and weak side. We worked our slides off belts, rigs, barriers, and upper legs to simulate having to rack and shoot with only one functional limb. It wasn't an easy task, and we weren't under stress or time parameters. A self defense situation that requires an immediate action/reaction under duress and time constraints might involve using a single hand, weak-side or strong-side ... having a CCW pistol without a chambered round could end in tragedy if a person is not extremely skilled in one-hand chambering drills. I don't think the majority of CCWs are skilled in that area, nor have many (any) tried a one-hand chambering drill, let alone practiced.

In the past, I've heard the bluster and bravado about being able to draw, rack, and shoot fast enough to compensate for carrying with an empty chamber. I always think of the clapping scene with Yul Brynner and Horst Buchholtz from "The Magnificent Seven".

I carry revolvers. No muss, no fuss. No worries.

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I'm with the banned ...

Wow, you guys just woke up this sleeping monster (of discussion) from 2012 huh???
Great !
Congrats!

+1. If you want to set yourself up to make an "actual" self-defense situation potentialy even worse...hey, it's your life!

More importantly, what if a failure to feed (ftf) or other malfunction occurs while trying to rack that round?
With one in the chamber, the all-important "first round" is always available.

Love these forums. Can get cantankerous, but still civil. I agree one should carry to one's level of comfort, but recommend one gets comfortable to carry chambered and ready asap. Practice with holster and carry choice, safety on/off, and magazine load should be done with habit.

Israelis learned the one hand rack the slide from a jarhead, they have been doing it at least since the 1911 was invented.

If the guy doesnt feel comfortable having a chambered round in his semi-auto, well thats good cause for swapping it out for a revolver as mentioned here. There is no good reason why a competent, well prepared, skilled gun owner should fear having his gun ready to go.
In life there are no second chances, the slide on my glock is harder than many think to singlehand cock...and there is a method to do this correctly provided you dont screw-up and end up the statistic cause of improper technique.
Having said the aformentioned, I would never carry without having my sidearm loaded, chambered and ready...but then again Im at the range 3-4 days a week, spend time with my firearms, and respect the fact that this is a perishible skill unless one keeps sharp and refining his skills.
My Smith and Wesson 586 6" .357 mag.w/hollow-pt. full grain hand loads is a no frills revolverI also have bedside...and will use it if the intruder has done something to piss me off and needs help checking-out with 1 shot.
I think a .38 special would suit your needs fine, get to the range and spend time learning about firearms and the respect we have for them and our 2nd ammendment right to bear them. God Bless the USA...NRA4LIFE.

I tend to refer to those who carry with empty chambers or worse, empty
guns as "cover." Seriously, though, whatever one carries, you must be able to draw and fire with one hand and access it with the weak hand also.

If you pull the trigger and there is no bullet in the chamber ... much like a tire with no air in it?

I carried a Colt Ser. 70 45ACP for years on duty and it was always cocked and locked. Glad it was one night during a foot chase jumping over backyard fences, when the chasee whirled around and pointed a weapon at me. I was running at the time and fired so quickly I didn't even remember clearing the holster. I never carry empty. But if you feel uncomfortable carrying that way, you gotta do what you're comfortable with.

The long-running and often horribly misunderstood C1 vs C3 discussion has come and gone many times on many forums. It boils down to a balance: we are balancing some possible slight delay in presenting the firearm against all the other risk factors. C1 might give some slight advantage in an actual gunfight, C3 gives an increased layer of safety during all those time you are not in a a gunfight.

As with so many things in the gun world, there are advantages and disadvantages to each type of carry. Different people with different equipment in different situations might find that a different solution better addresses their needs. C3/Israeli technique has met those needs for decades, and still does meet them in many situations. More importantly, the different advantages and disadvantages rarely matter in a DGU. The real trick is figuring out what your situation is and what advantages give you the best results. For some that might be C1, for others that might be C3.

BTW, for the speed freaks out there, well-trained C3 shooters are expected to draw, rack, and get a shot off in about 1 second. Lots of experimentation has shown that a good estimate is that it might add .2 seconds to a presentation for the average shooter.

For a good review, check out The Thinking Gunfighter blog article.

Speaking from my past, albeit limited, LEO experience; I see no redeeming quality in carrying unloaded ie the "Israeli draw" etc. It's like having a fire extinguisher empty and unpressurized, but with the chemicals and air compressor beside it. Just ain't the logical way to do it.