One more thing. I'm on a roll, yes.

"No Guns Allowed" signs are not neccesarliy posted because the business opposes guns. They are also posted for insurance reasons and to avoid litigation if someone was injured by a firearm while on their property.

So again, I oppose such signs and will continue to carry there if I chose to. I'm not concerned about their worries.

So why bother having a CC license?

I can't believe you don't understand. Concealment is everything. It lets me quietly go about my business anywhere I choose within the law to protect myself.

Open carry does not. Now this isn't a discussion about concealed vs open carry, but my point is that concealed carry negates the discussion about property rights vs the right to self protection. What you don't know won't hurt you.

I can't believe we are even discussing this.

A) He denied you nothing. You chose to enter the store under the conditions he set, which is his right. You, and you alone, decide whether or not you will enter the store under those conditions - regardless of how much you really "need" something.

B) See above.

Your own post displays the lack of logic - and common sense of people who keep saying they are being denied their right to self protection. If self defense is so important to you; if protecting your wife is so important to you; if carrying a gun with you at all times is so important to you - don't go in, no one is forcing you to enter!

Yes, it's that simple and it's that black and white.

No it ain't that simple or black and white. If it was, 55 posts later, we would all agree. But we don't.

What you don't understand is that a SIMPLE sign like "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone" would suffice instead of singling out gun owners.

I mean can you think of any more idiotic sign to post in your place of business? I bet not. That's because they don't care about infringing on our gun rights. So why should I care about their stupid sign? Because they own the place? I don't think so. Selfishness and stupidity need to treated as such.

And I can go/walk anywhere I please and have the basic God given right to protect myself anywhere anytime whether you or someone else doesn't like it. And no man can deprive me of that basic right. Nor should they try.

I maintain what I said earlier, if you don't know I'm packin, what's the beef?

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but all this talk about "rights" is giving me a headache. Let's face it...the only rights we have or will ever have are those recognized by the next person and given to us by whatever ruling authority we live under. Historically speaking worldwide there have never been "rights"...only what was allowed at the time. What we have is "ability". We are able to do what is allowed or made lawful up until such a time when the ruling authority changes their mind or is ousted. Where were the rights of the Jews in Europe in WWII? They didn't have any because the Nazi's wouldn't GIVE them any! How about the rights of any of the conquered peoples in history? All the slaves in history? The injustices of humanity are endless. These people's "rights" didn't come into play...only the reality of their situation. Some English monarchies required the populace to have personal weapons while others outlawed it entirely! Same place...different time.

I run a restaurant and can't believe the amount of people that thing they have the "right" to service...they don't. Misbehave and you are out!

We are lucky to live in a time of tolerance in a country that allows it. Only when we respect the choices of others can we then expect the same in return. If the sign says no guns then I have to respect that...take my gun off or don't go in...that's it. The alternative is worse. If no one recognizes your rights then you don't have any.

I carry everywhere I go legally. Even with places with signs saying "no guns", I carry. Only places like the post office, court house and some state land is off limits. The "no firearm" signs are not laws so if for some reason they find out I have one, they can ask me to leave which I have to or it is trespassing other than that I carry.

James

I guess I'm seeing this in a different way.
If you REALLY think that you need a firearm when you are
out and about, carry one. If not, leave it at home.
Since we're talking about businesses, if you carry, then
you are the only one that knows it.
It is ALWAYS about whether you think you need to carry.
I would imagine that many otherwise law-abiding people
in Chicago carry, every day. They know they're breaking the law,
but they want to live, too.
Your conscience is the final rule, not a sign or ordinance.
JMHO, TACC1

Try doing all those things on the same visit ... Just don't carry a firearm, you might get in trouble.

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I'm with the banned ...

Not until we discuss +P!

But thank you, it is a good debate. I'm most intrigued with those who acknowledge that the CC laws have specific statements about the "No Guns" sign, agreeing that in quite a few states that it "unlawful" or "forbidden" to carry in an establishment where such a sign is posted. Yet these folks feel that it is not breaking the law unless you get caught doing so.

And to those who say "I do not care if it is breaking the law I'm carrying anyway" I say: Why have a license in the first place?

The law is meaningless to you - save your money. You cannot enjoy the freedoms a law allows without also respecting it's restrictions.

<slinking back in> Since I haven't stated this on THIS page and it seems a lot posters may not have seen my inquiry prior.......
WHY would you want to do business with an owner who has a "no gun" policy posted on his door?
<slinking back out>

So you wouldn't go to the Post Office, or see your kids in school?

We really don't see much of this in New York. The Post Office, Federal buildings, and schools are off-limits. Occasionally you will see a night club that wands the patrons (but usually no signs saying "no guns").

I don't frequent night clubs (or strip joints), I have no kids in school, the only Federal buildings are the Post Offices, and I send most of my checks electronically. The last time I went to the post office I forgot to leave the gun in the car and I didn't remember until I got back to the car. I try to remember about the post office.

But other than that, the "no guns" postings are non-existant in NY and a non-issue for me.

Private businesses where I have a choice to do business or not. There are not a lot here. Ironically mostly gun stores.
But the movie theatre in Aurora, apparently.

Maybe you sound go to the local community college and take a history class/refresher. This Country was founded based on "certain inalienable rights" given to us by God. Beliefs like yours lead to a Totalitarian State. After all, the State gives you the Right,so the State can take them from you, right?

I do not buy that viewpoint and neither did our Founding Fathers. Maybe I'm naive, but I still mean the oath I took and love the Constitution I swore to uphold. It is how God meant for man to live.

And there's the reason why it's so simple and black and white. You do not have the right to walk anywhere you please, that's an incredibly stupid statement to make. To whit: try walking into your neighbor's house in the middle of the night and then get back to us on how it went.

As far as the context of this discussion, you still do not have the right to "walk anywhere" you please. When you enter private property, such as a business with a GFZ, you do so with license of the property owner. That includes any rules he sets, including GFZs, which is his right.

It's simple: Is your perceived "need" more important than the 2nd amendment? Yes or No? There it is, black and white, no gray, no obfuscation.

As far as your last comment is concerned: funny how the people who scream the most about their "rights" are the same ones that brag about violating the rights of others. And please explain your motivation for supporting people who establish GFZs, I'd like to hear it.

There is one local gun store that has a sign that says, "All guns must be in a case and unloaded. No holstered guns allowed. Any violation would be considered a threat." (The wording might be a bit off, but the sentiment is accurate.)

They have an indoor 100 yard range (rifle/pistol) and the local police practice there. I don't know how they handle the "holstered weapons" issue with them. The usually show up in civvies or wearing a blue "police" tee shirt.

What worries me about this discussion is the expressed intent of some to ignore the No Guns Signs, even if ignoring the sign is a violation of local law. I am concerned because this attitude will provide additional "ammunition" for the anti gun crowd. Yes the pun was intended.

As I stated back in post #2 if your sense of morality tells you that it is wrong then just don't do it. The anti gun crowd will ALWAYS have ammunition to use against gun owners hence the use of the word "anti". Some of that ammunition may be justified but more often then not it is ignorance.
It is obvious that the preponderance of posters on this particular forum, including LEOs are of a different viewpoint from your own. That's fine I respect your view. It does not make me feel any less safe nor am I concerned that good people may or may not be concealing a weapon on their person. Actually I take comfort in it.

Store signs do not necessarily carry the weight of the law. Unless there is an ordinance saying that a "No guns" sign does carry the weight of law, then I would say it does not.

The same as a "speed limit" in a shopping center. If you speed in the lot they can choose to declare that you are trespassing and refuse you entry, but they cannot charge you with speeding.

I suppose that a sign that said, "Those carrying guns on these premises are trespassing." then they could call the cops and charge you with trespassing. I'm not sure it would hold however.

We see signs in stores all the time that say, "We are not responsible for [almost anything]". That does not make them "not responsible" it only (they hope) discourages people for suing them for their responsibility.

"Maybe you sound go to the local community college and take a history class/refresher. This Country was founded based on "certain inalienable rights" given to us by God. Beliefs like yours lead to a Totalitarian State. After all, the State gives you the Right,so the State can take them from you, right?

I do not buy that viewpoint and neither did our Founding Fathers. Maybe I'm naive, but I still mean the oath I took and love the Constitution I swore to uphold. It is how God meant for man to live."
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States Rightist

I hear you, understand what you're saying and agree with the idea of rights as an ideal or a law or philosophically....even God given! They do exist in that context (regardless of whether I go back to school). BUT...laws and ideals don't stop bullets, rapes, beatings, murders, ect. What happened to the rights and laws in those circumstances? The rights have to be honored by the 2nd party in order to have any effect.

My point, however poorly stated, is that rights can only be given...not possessed. This is only a point of view and others will disagree.

Not sure why FTG is so upset, calling people stupid, illogical- what happens when someone gets shot and the 'victims' get angry? Haven't they tried to sue the gun companies? There are all kinds of lawsuits that shouldn't be brought, much less heard by a court.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that- even the post office- some whacko walks in and shoots 35 customers- why NOT sue for not being able to protect ourselves? If obama can sue SC, other states for wanting voters to ID themselves- if he acn sue AZ for protecting themselves against illegals which he failed to do- then I da doggoned well oughta be able to sue for denying my right to self-defense.
Shall not be infringed....examples are useless in some discussions, the one thing I agree with FTG on is- it's plain and simple- you deny my right to self-defense, I should have recourse.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

I can't explain my rationale here (but I'll try), but for some reason I don't treat a business with a sign the same as a honoring a person's wishes in their home.

If someone asked me not to bring guns in their house I would honor that.

But a large or private business owner asking me to come in and spend my money doesn't get that right. What they don't know won't hurt them.

Please point out, by directly quoting one of my posts, where I called someone stupid.

Secondly, how is someone denying you your rights? You chose to enter the GFZ on your own accord. If this isn't correct, please provide detailed accounts of you being forced to enter any store with a GFZ. Make sure in your account you describe the number of people holding you hostage, the kinds of guns they held to your head or alternatively the number of people that knocked you out and physically dragged you kicking and screaming against your will into that GFZ. When you can do that, then and only then, will I concede that your rights were violated.

I'm waiting.

Thanks,

No, that makes a lot more sense. I had a feeling considering that Corps symbol by your name, you might not have meant it the way came across.

Thank you for your Service.

I've read most the posts on this here thread...And I'll be damn'd if I know
how some of y'all ever got this far in life....It all sounds like no one ever carried a gun before all this CCW came along.

Folks have been carrying weapons concealed on there persons for a long time...Mabee all the way back to the jawbone of an *** days, go figger.

When a man can't decide for himself when and where he ought to be heeled or not
without makin' it a bigger issue than the national debt.

If I feel in my gut the need to defend my family or myself from attack I think I'll be able to do so.

Besides, I don't patronize places where me and my kind ain't wanted.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

You just want to argue. Well your preachin to the choir buddy. And you know exactly what I'm getting at. Don't play dumb.

My right to survive superceeds your property rights. Plain and simple. Right? Or do you just not get it?!

Thats just common sense. Before there were property rights there was the right to protect one's self. Be it spears, slings, or firearms, that right has been in existence since way before Jesus was born. No man has the right to take that away. Period. If you try, God help you.

We're done here. I've only tried to explain this 5 or 6 times and your hung up on PROPERTY! Where's your compassion?

Where could I get a sign like that??

There's not any "no guns allowed" signs at the walmarts here in Mo, some even sell ARs.

There's very few places I've seen around here that have "no guns allowed" signs and when I encounter these places I don't do business with them and I spread the word that they are anti-gun establishments.

I don't think there is a need for CCW permits, I should be able to carry my firearm on me whether its concealed or not and without a special permit. All the permit does is generate revenue for the government.

If you do get caught carrying into a gun free zone in Mo its not a criminal offense and you can only be charged with trespassing BUT your firearm is concealed so I don't see how anyone would know you were armed or not.

In NH it is agains the law to carry when a no weapons sign is posted. Yiogo

I live in the state of Iowa.

In this state the signs posted by businesses have no bases in the law. It is NOT "illegal" for me to enter these places of business armed - concealed.

I am NOT breaking any "laws".


So, despite the opinion of some here to appear to be adamant about "property" owner's right I shall continue to ignore silly little signs.

They may be the opinion of the business owner; they may be the overworked opinion of the legal department; or they may actually believe it will keep the bad guys from entering their establishment. I really don't care.

My safety comes first.

Well, I'm not an LEO, or even a lawyer. However, I have been in such establishments before with my CCW weapon and permit in place. I read the signs, I'm an adult, I made the conscious decision to be there, and if caught, I'd apologize and leave the premises. BUT, I make a concerted effort to not be made. CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED. This won't be an issue if the CCW holder does not make the gun print, show openly, or otherwise raise suspicion with a shop owner. KEEP IT COVERED, BUT ACCESSIBLE. That is how CCW is supposed to work, regardless of your location. I respect their right to post the sign, and I also try to do my best to be discreet in this regard. Don't give 'em a reason, and they won't HAVE a reason.

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MARK

Most of the time i am out the no carry no gun signs are in a location that you wouldn't notice them, unless you were intentionally looking for them.
To me that's a store owners attempt to straddle the fence. Just like the bookstore my wife and I go to.. The sign is down in a corner of the store window hard to see. The "old" NO SMOKING sign is right at eye level post at the door handle. So figure it out guys.
I am 65 lungs are bad on oxy. 24/7 , Right hamstring tore 5 year ago can't run due to that AND the lungs, eyes are such I need laser help on the gun since can't see the sights and the intended target at the same time.
Wife and I always pick our spots in a restaurant, Agree to what we will both do IF an armed encounter is to occur, and our possible choices for our reaction..

The wife checks me out for 'printing' And I carry 2 ., A 642 with CT and a Sigma .40 with CT or one of 2 .45's-4513TSW or Shorty .45.
The reason I give all this irrelevant info to you is for this statement.
UNLESS the NO GUNS sign is posted NEXT to the NO SMOKING sign in the same BIG letters, I never "look " for the No Guns sign.

The wife says IF I am stupid enough to let my guns be seen, and caught, i shouldn't have them anyway.

This is the "BIG" end of the pool kids.

Just lately a man walked in to his daughters birthday party, with a shotgun at a Cracker Barrel 6 blocks from my home. . Hunted down his wife and 2 children Killed all 3. Cops shot him as he came out.
Thing is NO one stopped him from Killing in a public place.
I have faith in my judgement and my training. The debate of NO GUNS vs ignoring the sign is a very MOOT point to me..
The Doctor lady in Texas with the LUBY"S shooting started the CCW for all of us. Google it up and see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre
I have "carried " since 1970. it was 22 years before the wife found out. And then that was only because she was going back thru our luggage after I had packed. I didn't care to debate the issue with her at all ever. But she was in agreement.
At work for years the debate of not being able to carry a gun concealed, since we were at that time a NON CCW state always came up.
I would say " you only know that I have a gun on me if I pull it out."
So till then no law has been broken.. You don't know if I have one on me right now , DO YOU??
the answer was always "NO"..
I simply am speaking from a common sense survival approach vs the Philosophical debate approach.
" The FACTS ARE" if someone else had a weapon at the time, its a good bet less people/ children would be dead.

Ranch Hand is right in so many ways.

First off chain stores/malls make corporate policy in their corporate lawyers' offices in West Overshoe, safely locked behind a security door with access limited to only those that work in that office building.

Meanwhile several thousands of miles away, there are store managers or mall managers (my BIL was one of these) who have to deal with the public, can't hide behind a security "barrier" . . . but must post the signs mandated by corporate.

To wit: One chain theater location had the no guns sign ONLY on the inner exit door . . . no way to see it until you are leaving the theater. Another chain theater posted theirs at ground level on the outer door . . . unless you crawl up the stairs you'd never see it. I see both of these as a "protest" by the local manager (who disagrees with corporate) but in strict compliance with the corporate mandate.

I know of two Costco locations where the managers have gun permits . . . they aren't posted (never been in a posted Costcos and I've been to many in FL, CT, MA and NH) and aren't likely to ever be posted.

For the record: Any store employee can "trespass" any customer by ordering them to leave for any reason whatsoever (true in any state) and failure to do so is a crime . . . has nothing to do with firearms! MA and NH have no laws that make signage binding.

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MA Gun Law & NRA Instructor

Just to play devil's advocate, this is a state by state basis. In Iowa you can post signs until you're blue in the face about conceal carry but it's not law. It'd be similar to "NO (insert here) ALLOWED". No laws are being broken. The clerk/owner can ask you to leave at which point you must comply. If not at that point you are breaking the law.

In my case, if an unplanned stop happens that I may know has a sign (only one place I've ever been at a mall) I either don't go in, or go about whatever I had to do there and leave. It's concealed, and more than likely will stay that way. I CC to protect me and mine, not be LEO of any kind. If it's offensive for others to know I CC I appologize they don't understand, but it may be offensive that I don't like they're bratty child etc.... Still offensive, they don't know, and neither are illegal.



The debate can go on and on, I'll back out now and let whoever judge.

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Always more room in the toybox

To me, those "No Guns Allowed" signs are kinda like saying "Don't Expose Your Genitals". Duh! I mean if I go into a store I'm gonna make sure that my gun isn't exposed.

Disobey either sign and you could get into trouble.

Jeffy-
That's not the way I interpret it? "No Guns Allowed", to me, means NO GUNS ALLOWED, whether exposed or concealed?

I'm sure it does; I'm just looking for loopholes.

Also, it depends how you define "gun".

Jeff,
Yur right ya know...I've carried a handgun all of my adult life, long before all these concealed carry license laws came about.

My father told me when I was young man and talking about carrying a gun,
He said son,"There's a few things a man doesn't do in public...Count his money, pull out his **** or show off his pistol."

That advice has worked for me for over 40 sumthing years.

As far as gettin in to trouble goes...I jest plan on being alive,
to be tried by a jury of my peers!

I's rather see my grand-children lookin at me through the glass on visitin day,
than stairin at my headstone or me standing over one of their graves and knowing I failed them by not being prepared to defend em.

All My Best,
Su Amigo
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Wow! This topic comes up on just about every gun forum out there.

As much as I think that "no gun" signs are silly and that business owners should be prohibited from banning guns, that's the way it is right now. We have this silly thing going on called property rights. Just like I can't bring a gun into your house if you ask me to leave it in the car, you can't take one into a store if they ask you to not do so.

From my reading, in some states, like Ohio, the crime is ignoring the sign. In my state, the crime only occurs if the proprietor asks you to leave and you don't and about all that can happen, unless you are really stupid, is that you will be given a ticket. Sadly, or joyfully, the laws vary greatly from state to state.

I'm not a cop so I can only carry in 36 states. The laws vary so widely from state to state that it isn't funny. The states with the newer carry laws seem to have the most restrictions. Here on Jasoom, where concealed carry has been codified for 80 years or more, I can carry in bars, churches, and sporting arenas. Even schools may be legal, if you have a good lawyer, but that has never reached the appellate level so no precedents have been set.

When I started carrying 30+ years ago, no one gave a hoot. I was in college and the chief of the campus police told me that carrying on campus with a state license was ok. So I carried, openly at times, and no one cared. Stores, bars, classrooms and not a word was said.

The times they have a'changed.

Hi Dave, you can go a long way and live a long life if you have common sense. Your father did you right if he you told you stuff like that. In one sentence not only did he talk about guns, but he implied the importance of modesty, humility, respect, decency, being a man, and of course good ol' common sense.

I'm honored to make your acquaintance Sir.

Thankyou for your reply.

Afectuoso Saludo

AMEN!! Been my philosophy too.

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Sheriff Russell Cottle. ret

Same laws apply where I live.

Carry everywhere. If I see a "no firearms allowed" sign, I do a two point evaluation. Does this establishment have armed security personnel? A metal detector checkpoint at all entrances? If the answer is no, then I ignore the sign, as any rational person should.

It all depends on how the statutes in your state are written. In Missouri, it is NOT the "law that one cannot carry into a posted area".

Generally speaking, you can be asked to leave for ANY reason, whether you are carrying a firearm or not. That is the "penalty" for doing business with a private business owner.

Yes, and that applies if you refuse to leave for ANY reason.

If a person is carrying a concealed firearm, how, exactly, will a proprietor know that the person is carrying? It's unlikely that the person will be wearing a t-shirt that has, "I'm carrying a concealed handgun" written all over it. Also, do you have an example of the media shouting "CC holders ignore warning signs, etc....", or is this simply something that you assume will happen?

I pretty much agree with this. As responsible citizens, we should strive to respect private property owner's rights as much as possible (whether we carry a firearm or not). I expect folks to follow my rules when they are on my property, and subsequently, I believe it's perfectly valid for them to expect me to follow their rules on their property, especially when I have made the CHOICE to be on that property.

With that said, I DO allow for the fact that there are certain parcels of private property, or institutions located on private property, where some of us have no choice but to be on certain occasions (a hospital, for example) and where we are actually paying this private property owner a sometimes substantial amount of money for them to provide their unique services or products to us. In some instances, these establishments are located in less-than-safe neighborhoods or areas where you are at risk just walking to the building from the parking garage. In such cases, I reserve the right to place the safety of myself and my family above the wishes of the private property owner, and "ignore" the signs as long as it isn't unlawful to do so.

So in summary, while I certainly don't think we should go out of our way to not respect a property owner's wishes, I also believe that we sometimes have to make the most prudent decisions for ourselves and our families, even if they contradict with a property owner's wishes. My first responsibility is to myself and my family, a property owner's wishes are secondary to that.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

By watching for bulges in strange places.

You have a right to survive, you just don't have a RIGHT to do it on MY property. I checked the deed and yer not on it. If you are on it and don't have my permission, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you hunting on it and you are hunting, you are tresspassing. If I don't want you carrying a gun on it and you are aware of it, you are tresspassing.

This far isn't a can I prosecute or not prosecute situation yet but they are facts. When you are on some one elses property including business and not welcome and you know you are not welcome, you are tresspassing and you know it just by definition.

With that in mind I don't think any one desearve's a second of consideration or mercy, nothing more than the bare minimum it takes to have them jailed and prosecuted. Gun or no gun, permit or no permit, same as any other low life thief or deliberate tresspasser. Jail 'em, the quicker and harder the better.

With all of the phones, lights, knives, and other garbage people carry around on their belts now days, it would more abnormal if a person DIDN'T have an odd "bulge" here or there. If a business owner asked everyone who came in with a "strange bulge" to leave, he/she likely wouldn't have many customers left.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Gun bulges are different. Unless it is super deep concealment, concealed carry is only concealed to the casual observer.

I submit that 99.9% of the people you will see during the average day are "casual observers". Most of them wouldn't notice if you were carrying your gun openly, much less concealed. But I digress, a PROPERLY concealed firearm, even in an IWB holster, is very difficult to discern.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Hope you have metal detector checkpoints set up at all your doors. If not... try putting up a sign that details what you've said here. See how well your business does from there.

I expect that his business would not last long in Texas. For one thing, he is on the wrong side of the law if his sign does not meet the requirements of Texas Law. He has the option
to put up a legal sign or verbally ask a permit holder to leave.
It appears to me, that some people think that any old sign will do, and that is not the case in Texas. If you are a business and want your property rights to exclude someone with a permit it has to be posted with a legal 30.06 sign or else he has to verbally give notice to anyone going into that business he thinks may be carrying, in which they can leave and no arrest will take place. When a business searches someone without probable cause that raises other issues. And if he has an employee in Texas, the owner cannot restrict the employee from having a gun in the vehicle. If he owned an apartment complex, he does not have the legal right to put up a sign violating a persons right to have a gun in their apartment or home, nor from carrying to and from their vehicle. Not even a Federal Housing Authority can restrict a person from having a weapon for self defense.

So when someone says on their business property, it depends on what kind of property it is, and what state it is in. Of course if the property happens to be a liquor establishment, then he would probably have a "legal" 51% sign posted. I only know of two such legal signs in Longview, Texas,
at two retail stores. I have not been in them since I saw them, and won't drop anyone off at their stores. I could care less, if they go bankrupt, while I order products I need over the internet or at stores that don't have such signs, and I do not fail to warn people coming down here, that there is a lot of crime in their parking lot and on their premises.

Howdy Folks,

I don't know Jack...But sounds like he's a havin trouble with errant trespassers and unruly hunters at his place of business.

Best of luck with solving those issues there Jack.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"