I don't know Jack either, but I would sure like him to explain where in the Constitution it says a property owner has all that power.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Why would that be in the Constitution? Most of the Constitution is about what the government may or may not do. Property rights have been part of common law centuries, if no millennia.

They are supported by the law that says that they can prohibit the carriage of firearms in their establishment.

I think all of this is a hoot...There's a business that I sometime frequent.

A side entrance has one of those little pistol signs in the red circle with the diagonal red line across it
at eye level on the glass beside the doorway.
The main entrance, nor any other entrance has any such signage of this kind, period.

Had a fellow ask me what that meant.

I said, I think it means to use the front door! Gees....





Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Exactly. No "right" exists that hands that power to a property owner.

We do not observe (imply, accept, recognize) common law. We are governed by a type of "maritime" law.

A business owner is granted the ability to post his business for no CCW by the statute that recognized the ability to carry concealed. As a business owner, he may refuse service to anyone, with a valid reason. He may NOT refuse service based on race, religion or disability.

A private individual on his or her property may refuse access to anyone they like. Now here's the kicker; that same person may not search you, test you or require you to change your religion. He has no force of law, implied or invested. He may simply deny you access to his property. If you refuse to leave, he may have you arrested for trespassing. Anyone that would place them selves in that position is a fool.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Maritime law? If you don't leave a crew member in your car, anyone who comes along has salvage rights?

Here on Jasoom, I can arrest a trespasser under common law.

And then your property will be his property.

I'm not making this up. Better do some research before you give everything away.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

The Constitution was written to restrict GOVERNMENT power, NOT the power of the individual. Read it and you will find that nowhere in our Bill of Rights does it attempt to establish what rights you and I do or don't have, rather, it attempts to restrict government power over certain inalienable rights that our founders believed we were all endowed with. Individual sovereignty and property rights were at the very heart of our founding principles.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Help me out here. Where are these property rights written? Where does it say a property owner has the power of arrest?

I've been trying very hard to find something that details these property rights I hear so much about. Please point me in the right direction.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

You live in Missouri. I live on Jasoom. Different laws.

About 30 years ago, there was a jeweler who was acquitted after shooting a fleeing robber because, it was argued, that he was attempting to effect an arrest and the law allowed force to be used to effect said arrest. Of course, the media screamed.

How's that?

But isn't that the same power of arrest any citizen may enact? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it didn't benefit him to be the property owner, did it? He was given the same consideration any one would have gotten that tried to stop a robbery.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

That refers to an individual citizen. Nowhere does it say "Property Owner".

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

FOG,

I don't have the foggiest idee where the hell Jasoom is...

But, shooting fleeing felons is sticky wickety business at best in any locale.

But, laws do differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

I seriously question a citizen or a LEO being found justified in using deadly force to attempt an arrest for misdemeanor trespass on private property.

One might attempt to hold a trespasser for LE...But, if the perpetrator decides to walk away, whatcha gonna do?

Some jurisdiction have statues allowing merchants to detain shoplifters and theifs...But trespassers, I would question that.




I really like living in the free state that I do.

We don't have all those big city problems...No signs in my town.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

The law doesn't allow for that.

Under the law, I may detain him, using any force short of deadly force.

I like my state where one need not worry about where one carries a gun.

BTW, Jasoom is between Casoom and Barsoom.

Oh, really.
Hum, I'm guessin' that's sumwhere's between Scotland and Austin P's mojo. Right?


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

You seriously believe you can use force to detain someone for the crime of trespass?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Not at all. Don't they teach celestial navigation anymore?

I'm not sure celestial navigation will turn that one up.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Now yur jest jerkin our lariat !


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I wouldn't touch your lariat. I don't swing that way.

Where is it written that you have a right to breathe? Where is it written that you have a right to eat or drink? Where is it written that you have a right to use the internet?

The truth is, the MAJORITY of our rights are not "written" anywhere, and they were never intended to be. Our founders believed that rights of free men, such as the right to own property and to rule over that property, were "self evident" and "natural" - in other words, they believed all men were endowed with these rights by virtue of their being. Subsequently, they drafted the 9th and 10th Amendments to our Bill of Rights to forever codify those beliefs:

Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

As to "property rights" themselves, here are a few things our founders had to say about the subject:

“Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: First a right to life, secondly to liberty, and thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can.” Samuel Adams

“Property is surely a right of mankind as real as liberty.” John Adams

“No power on earth has a right to take our property from us without our consent.” John Jay

“As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights.” James Madison

"A right to property is founded in our natural wants, in the means with which we are endowed to satisfy these wants, and the right to what we acquire by those means without violating the similar rights of other sensible beings." Thomas Jefferson

"All men are created equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; among which are the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing the obtaining of happiness and safety."
George Mason

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'" Thomas Jefferson

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Well done.

Your right, those things are not written anywhere. It is assumed. Along with all those assumptions come exaggerations, misconceptions and outright mistakes. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your rights end where mine begin. No one has a superior standing because of class, wealth or religion. Those that set back and thumb their suspenders and talk about their property rights really don't know of what they speak. Owning property does not give you a superior standing in the eyes of the law. Even defense of said property is only now being reinforced by Castle Doctrine laws.

If you really want a demonstration of property rights, miss a couple of property tax payments, then you'll see the real owner of your property exercise their rights.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

How'd this argument get to this point. You give up a little when you put an Yes, We're Open sign on the door. Now we're talking about citizen arrest, or if we can shoot someone, because someone entered your business you didn't like. Ask them to leave and stop being stupid. You want people to not carry put metal detectors at all the entrances. Or board up the door.

Nobody said that owning property gives the owner "superior standing". But a property owner DOES enjoy rights on his property that he can't be compelled to share with others, and there is no personal right that can supersede that "authority" on said property. I've said it before, and it rings just as true now; you don't have a 1st or 2nd Amendment right on my property unless I say you do. That doesn't mean you would ever give up your right to self defense if I invited you on my private property, but it DOES mean that as a condition of that invite, I can mandate that you may NOT be armed.

Even so, the Constitution prohibits that same government from seizing, entering, or searching that property without cause (due process and a warrant). So while property taxes are mandatory in some locales/states, that fact is not sufficient to compel you to forfeit your Constitutionally protected rights.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Yes, you can do those things. And at that point, it becomes a decision on my part whether to comply or not. If you assume the responsibility for my protection, I might consider it. The same with the first amendment. What inducement do I have to give up that right? Will you also require me to renounce my religion? You see, it can't be just the gun thing. It has to be all of them. We believe them all to individual rights, so if you can remove my first and second amendment rights, how about three and four?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

A private property owner can't "remove" any of those rights, however, he/she CAN deny you access or admittance to the property based on whether or not you agree to voluntarily forfeit those rights. So your "decision to comply" is actually your decision as to whether or not you wish to enter said private property. Face it, we "give up" certain rights by entering private property nearly every day. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is reality.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

The First Amendment has no impact on what restrictions non-government entities put on other non-government entities.

If you wish to enter my house, I may require you to start every sentence with "Waka-waka" or I may require you to convert to Pastafarianism. My house, my rules and the only thing that you can do about it is to choose not to enter. However, the First Amendment protects you from the government requiring you to say "Waka-waka" or worship the flying spaghetti monster.

Do you now see my point? I have to give them up, you can't take them from me. You, as a property owner, do not have that right. You can't make someone give up their rights. (you probably know that in Missouri, you can't willingly give up your rights). In the case of an employer, I accept a job from him I forfeit some of my rights. I get paid for that.

The Martian up a few posts prior thinks his property rights give him the right to use force to detain a trespasser. What do you think about that?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I'm not a Martian, I'm from Jasoom. Please, get it straight.

The law supports my ability to use force to detain a trespasser. Pretty simple concept.

The only right that you have in my house is the right to enter if invited to do so. Everything else is a privilege.

This discussion has is not about private property but private property with public access.

In your home, you can do anything you want within the law. If you want to bar certain people, fine. If you want to block all exits in your home, fine.

Can't do that at a business. You cannot bar certain people. You cannot block fire exits. And you cannot make people speak a certain language. All you can do is ask them to leave.
But you better have a good reason.

If I enter your business carrying concealed, neither you or anyone else knows. No big deal.

If I enter your private property without permission then I get what's coming to me. But this also is a non issue. I have no reason to enter private property.

If you were my friend and invited me, you wouldn't put such restrictions on me because you would likely be carrying yourself.

And frankly, I don't care about someone's property rights when it comes to protecting myself. My welfare is worth more than someone's property. That's how it should be. And that is how it was meant to be.

It's semantics. I can tell you, "you may enter my property, but only on my terms". You can either say, "okay" or "no thanks". In the end, if you say "okay", it's irrelevant whether you "gave up your rights willingly" or if I "compelled" you to give them up - the result is the same - you were stripped (albeit temporarily) of your rights.

In Missouri, a citizen, acting on his own accord, may "use physical force to effect arrest or prevent escape only when and to the extent such is immediately necessary to effect the arrest, or to prevent escape from custody, of a person whom he reasonably believes to have committed a crime and who in fact has committed such crime." (RSMO 563.051.2).

So under the LETTER of the law, it would be lawful for a property owner to make such a detainment, HOWEVER, I believe if you search case law, you will have a hard time finding rulings that support the idea that it is acceptable for a citizen to use physical force to detain another person for a mere infraction or misdemeanor trespassing crime.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

Yes, but in some places your property MUST have signs CLEARLY posted. If not then YOU have just confronted someone with a gun that entered your property unknowingly.

And if he decides to produce a firearm to protect himself, now what are you going to do?

Like I said, I have no reason to enter private property. But if for some reason I did and was confronted by an armed man, I would seek cover and produce my own gun.

Someone that tries to "detain" me by using force will be met with equal or greater force.

Where I come from, we approach people in a respectful manner until given a reason not to. Detaining someone only escalates the problem. If they come back, call 911.

So your contention is that willfully breaking the law is okay.

Assuming he has a valid CCW permit, even if a sign was posted, he would not be "breaking the law" in Missouri. Of course, other states have different laws in that regard.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

What law?

This coming from someone that wants to "detain" someone on his property by use of force.

Only federal and state law keeps me from carrying anywhere I want.

And don't be a hypocrite. We ALL break the law in some way whether it be exceeding the speed limit or failing to signal a lane change to lying on our taxes. In some small/big way, we all cheat a little.

I have the right to protect myself anywhere. Even if I'm not carrying a gun.

"Sorry honey. I was on Fat Old Guys property and he wouldn't let me protect myself so I got stabbed"

How would you like to tell your wife something like that?

Here it falls under "defiant trespass" which is a crime. However, usually the manager just asks you to leave. Be that as it may, even if the manager doesn't spot your gat, undetected crimes are still crimes.

The law that says that you may not enter private property unless you respect the conditions set for entering said property.

The law says that I can do exactly that.

So now we're comparing criminals/trouble makers to the average concealed carrier?

It isn't a crime here. Why do you assume your state laws apply to me?

Are you sure your not with the Brady Bunch?

Sure it is. From the Revised Code of Washington:

So if a store owner posts a sign saying, "No Guns" or words to that effect and you enter with your gun, you are complying with the conditions for access to said store. Consquently, you would have no defense to a charge of Criminal Trespass in the Second Degree.

The difference between your state and other states is that the other states specifically mention firearms and signs in their laws.

I was just at a gunshop today buying another pocket holster. Sign outside said guns must be unloaded but no 30.06 legal sign. I made my purchase, notified the clerk that I needed to test the pocket holster and did so. Their sign is not a legally enforceable sign.
Attempts, in Texas by a property owner, to unlawfully detain someone can result in that property owner being charged with kidnapping. The property owner may not decide what sign is legal as it is defined in the Texas statutes. If he tells the customer to leave, the customer must leave, but the property owner has no right to detain that person. On a previous occasion however, when they learned that I bought 4 handguns in the past two years, but not at their store, one of them told me that sign applies to people coming in to pawn their guns. Now in Texas, if he had wanted to he could ask me to leave, and I would have been required to do so. But that applies to anyone, gun or no handgun.

Attempting to restrain someone is like me blocking a vehicle in to a handicapped spot because they don't have a handicapped decal. I might want to do that, but doing so might result in me being charged with unlawful detainment.
Property owners, often have biting dogs, That is fine, as long as their dog stays on their property, but if I am in the street and the dog attempts to bite me I would shoot it. These same property owners do not want to pay 6 months of wound care, for my treatment, (diabetic), and the taxpayers of Texas would not appreceiate paying for it either, I want burden the VA with my treatment in such a case and I want pay it so its one or the other. Recently one told me that a good way to get killed is shooting someones dog. I told him someone shoots at me I don't usually miss and I shoot back. The right of that property owner ends where my leg begins if am in the street. The property owners rights do not extend to any part of my leg.

Well, that's fine because I'm not talking about unlawfully detaining anyone.

Anyway, everyday I thank the Lord Almighty that I don't live in Texas because open carry is no-no there and apparently local government can make up their own rules.

I was not born in Texas, but I thank God every day that I live in Texas, where our state actually carrys out the sentences we have on the books. As for Open Carry, if they had it I would not open carry as I prefer the element of surprize.
I never want to live in another State myself, but occasionally travel to Oklahoma, Lousiana and Arkansas. Attempting to prevent someone from leaving a store based on a legal unenforcable sign, would be a problem for a business owner.
You can ask them to leave, but you can't legally detain them.

I also llke the State laws of Florida, have been there but have never lived there. Texas is unique, regarding laws that allow one to protect property at night I think. There are a lot of criminals who don't like Texas however, because they can't just run off with the loot here, as they can in some of the other states. Other significant advantages for property owners is the Texas Homestead Exemption. no other State comes close except maybe Florida. The SYG laws and deadly force provisions are about the same.

I don't know of any places in Texas that is a problem for CHL holders, as there are in some southern states where there are a few anti-gun mayors who try to harrass CHL holders. There used to be some problems when people were harrassed without permits for having a weapon unless they were traveling. That was fixed when the Castle Doctrine was extended to ones personal vehicle, so lots of people carry weapons in their vehicles who may or may not have a permit.

Yup, we're all purty proud that ya don't....


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

If you read the law concerning the Post Office you can't even have a gun in your car in their parking lot. In Oklahoma, government buildings where government business is conducted are off-limits to concealed or open carry (after 1 November 2012) by licensed civilians. The city hall building where I work is posted "Possession of Firearms Is Strictly Prohibited," but it is secured by armed security officers. I ignore the signs.

ECS

PS. I'm one of the security officers.

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

I just don't go into businesses where they have such signs. The hospital I use (when necessary) is posted, but they have armed guards, too.

ECS

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Agreed. I was born in the dictatorship of Massachusetts. I may not wear a 10 gallon hat, but after the army brought me here, and I changed my residence. I'm a proud Texan. Where I have the rights not the criminal.

I have read most of the posts in this thread. This has really been a great discussion, with varying points of view and state laws. After the 1st page or so, I thought Dave needed to chime in on this. I was glad when he did, and he certainly didn't disappoint. If you don't get caught and there is no evidence, then it didn't happen(or at least I didn't do it!) The only reason I wasn't born in Texas, is because, in Texarkana, back then, the hospital was in Arkansas. Now they've moved onto the Texas side, I wonder if I can get that changed?

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Interesting discussion no doubt but I have a question. Virtually every gun store I have ever been to has a sign on the door stating that ALL firearms must be unloaded and cased BEFORE entering. This isn't Target or Costco, we are talking your local gun shop. If you are legally carrying concealed do you comply? Given all the comments about merchants that do/don't have the right to restrict carry and the various political agendas associated with each side of the argument how do we reconcile the gun shops putting this restriction in place???

Of the few LGS's I do business with, none of them are posted in that manner. That said, there are a couple with signs that read something like, "All firearms being brought in for repair, trade, or appraisal MUST be unloaded and cased. This does not apply to concealed firearms carried by CCW permit holders.". In fact, the Cabela's store in Hazelwood Missouri has a sign similar to that on the door.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER