Gun shops do it out of a sense of self preservation. I've been in more than one gun shop where a couple guys will be talking and suddenly one of them say, "Ya think thets sumthin? Ya needz to see my new Stremheiser 380!" and out comes his Roscoe from under his shirt. Usually panic ensues and I do a low crawl out the door.

The sad reality is that many gun owners are morons and don't realize that they are morons.

I understand "why" they do it the question is do you comply at the gun store? Why or why not?

Capt Steve,

If the gun store sign says "No Concealed Carry" or "No Loaded Concealed Carry," I don't go inside. The gun store I frequent most often has an indoor range and a sign that reads: "No Handling Loaded Guns in the Sales Area." I can live with that.

ECS
Captain, Armor
United States Army (Retired)

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Seems like no one wants to answer the question. The signs I am talking about, and I have seen them in half a dozen gun shops/indoor ranges from San Diego (Discount Gun Mart/indoor Range) to Tucson (Murphies Guns), state: "ALL Firearms must be unloaded and cased before entering" - no mention of concealed carry or any other disclaimers.

While I understand any number of reasons for the signs from morons to insurance issues it strikes me as incredibly hypocritical for a gun shop/range to implement one of the most onerous restrictions on carry we all encounter. When Target or Costco does it folks get up on their hind legs and start chest thumping about the second amendment. When the gun shops do it no one seems to care. What is the difference?

For the record I will enter a gun store with such a sign posted and comply with their wishes, I leave my gun secured in the truck. I have no concern for my safety while shopping there as every employee has a gun on their hip and presumably knows how and when to use it. I will not walk in to any other business that is posted no carry as my own often not so silent protest against their policy so in that respect I am not all that consistent either.

In South Carolina, the law specifically spells out what a sign must say/read, what size the sign must be, and where and how high the sign must be placed.

My CCW instructor said he has seen plenty of signs not comforming to the law and thus technically it should not be a violation to carry inside that business since they did not comply with the law with legal signage. But he also said it was up to you whether or not to take that next step and decide to carry inside. He said you might leave your gun secured in the car and go inside and tell them you will not shop their again until they reverse their policy and maybe even point out that their sign is not legal.

Criminals are not going to respect any sign prohibiting guns, whether the sign is legal or not. I don't see why any store wouldn't allow law abiding citizens to carry inside the store. I don't want to do anything stupid or dumb to have my carry permit taken away, so it's almost like an indictment of carry permit holders as someone to be feared instead of being an ordinary customer shopping in a store. Would these same stores put up a sign saying no sex offenders allowed inside our premises? Aren't those people dangerous too? Why would stores want bank robbers or any type of robbery convict in their stores? Maybe they should put up signs for those people too; they would be a danger. Maybe if stores could keep out all of the bad guys with signs, then we wouldn't need to carry inside their store. Perhaps that's a trade-off stores would consider?

Sorry...enough of the rant.

As stated earlier in the thread. Texas has a requirement for the proper sign to restrict carry. A cheap old sing with a red cross over circle doesn't cut it. If its the wrong sign I ignore it. If you use the proper sign, I honor it, but I honor it by not going in and giving them my business. One of the main reasons I always refuse a invite to go to a bar is the 51%. I'll do my drinking at home.

Seems like many are concerned about the size of the sign, as opposed to there being a sign to begin with?

Concealed means Concealed Period.

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AA

We all know those signs make the crimials say "****, they have a sign I guess I'll go rob and shoot someone else." So it must be safe inside.

concealed is concealed

Wisconsin has a similar provision--you have to leave an area if the owner asked you. The problem in my area is the posting of signs, especially in malls.

For example, one furniture store in our local mall permits CCW owers to carry, but they also have an entrance to the main promenade area of the mall. They post a sign on their door, only as a warning to those leaving their store area.

Same thing with the bookstore, but with a catch. They allow firearms, and have a separate entrance. But they do not post anywhere. My concern is that a clueless legal license holder could enter the side door, and the enter the promenade and never see a sign.

Since I only patronize those stores that permit firearms, I don't have an issue. It's the owner's loss of revenue, not mine.

If you think I am going back to the car to leave my gun behind,
because the barber shop now has a no concealed weapons sign,



you are crazier than me!!

I - need - my - hair - cut - !!!

I would never use any store in a shopping mall that has legally posted signs in Texas. The only ones I have seen in Texas were at Sears and JC Penney. There are too many other places to buy products plus foreign suppliers over the internet, for me to provide any economic support to such stores in malls with legal no gun signs. What do I care if they call go bankrupt? They create their own problems in a rough economy. But I go the additional step of encouraging my friends not to shop with them either. I usually talk about how dangerous their parking lots are with criminals hanging out there.

Keep it concealed and no one knows. Not a real big deal. I do try to avoid patronizing such businesses though. So if I happen to infringe upon the rights or those store owners by having my firearm concealed upon my person in their premisis, yes my personal protection matters much more.

I agree 100% "Concealed" means concealed. If you do not see my weapon it should not be a problem. I carry in most places that are posted and I don't see a problem.

Yeah I just bought a 12 Gage Shot Gun, a Glock 30, a Walther 380 just recently and i did not buy them at the gun store where
they have the none legal no gun sign. One of them there has
told me the sign was really not for me, with a CHL but it still
makes me uncomfortable. I do not know of a single gunshop
where i live that has a 30.06,30.07 (as of Jan) or a 51% sign.
But those are the only three that I have to legally comply with.
Now if I am ever in the gun shop that has the sign about
disarming and they say anything to me, since they know I
have a permit i will leave immediately and never stop by again.
I did buy one gun there quiet awhile back.

I worked for Walmart for 6 years. I personally sold Ar15s,mini 14's ect. I'm not really defending Walmart they certainly have their share of bad in my opinion. But the not selling guns was a business decision. The used sales demographics to determine the profitability on a store to store basis. Most of the stores that I know of no longer have a posted no carry sign. Walmart is in business to make money, not enemies

Depends on state law. If the law makes it a crime to ignore no carry signs if discovered you can be arrested, charged and tried. Conviction may include fines, jail time, loss of permit and maybe the gun or worse, if it's a felony say goodbye to your gun rights.

Here in Arkansas it is not a violation of law to ignore the signs. If discovered, all that can happen is the property owner can order you to leave. If you refuse you can then be charged with simple trespassing. But every state will be different.

Knowing the criminals choose gun free zones, and knowing in my state ignoring the signs is not punishable by law, I do ignore them. I would not be so quick to do so in a state with severe punishment for ignoring gun ban zones. Saying "The Second Amendment protects me" will do you zero good in court.

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No life story has happy end.

Yep! People complain about Walmart ammo and now guns. The Walmarts in 30 mile radius around my city stopped carrying all that in 1999

The Walmart in Willow Grove is the closest one near me, and it sells ammo. I use to consider their ammo prices great, but now I can get better deals online, including with the cost of shipping added.

Never been to that one but then again I don't exectly go looking for them. Either way none sell guns and haven't in almost 20 years

Never gamble more than you can afford to lose. Concealed means concealed, just be sure it's concealed real well if you choose to go there. In gun shops I believe they will be more able to spot a CC'er than most other places, and they are usually a place I would like to be able to go back to, so I play their game, most of the time.

Amazing that this thread was reactivated after 3 years and the opinions are still divided. Personally I try to avoid a confrontation, if the business doesn't want me and my gun in their business I will accommodate them and shop elsewhere. Haven't found a store yet I couldn't do without. I don't run with scissors either.

Seems like Walmart provides long guns and ammo for the Texas market. I was there today, they had no 45 HP's for a semi but
had regular 45 rounds. They have a good selection of long guns and shotguns too.

They have walmart with guns and ammo in Pa, just not in or around Philadelphia. And to be honestly their selection is pathetic. I can see why they stopped selling firearms. Ruger 10/22, Mosburg 12G, a AR and some type of lever gun....not exactly a selection. Any LGS will have a much much better variety

The Walmart I worked at in state college pa actually sold reloading supplies and components. We sold Sierra and hornady bullets and Alliant powder. Rcbs equipment. It is rare to see this but it was profitable so it was allowed. That is the key word"profitably "

I carry where there are no gun signs, only because KS has a law that enables a retired LEOSA permit holder to carry anywhere an active officer can carry. If I go into a building that has security, such as x-ray and metal detectors, I show my credentials to the officers manning the machines and am allowed to bypass them and enter. This doesn't include jails, prisons, or places where a judge prohibits firearms in their courtroom.

Speaking as a Texan, there are only two signs that I pay attention to wherever I go.
One is the 30.06 sign, a specifically legal sign that WILL result in the prosecution of a CCW carrier if caught. It is very rare that I actually see one of those, and I go a lot of places.
The other sign that I find to be VERY ubiquitous is the one that states exactly as follows:
"NOTICE: The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $10,000." (Emphasis on the word "unlicensed").

I very rarely even see a 30.06 sign (I don't shop at liquor stores), and I most often see the "unlicensed possession" sign.

In other words, I carry my defensive weapon wherever I go.

And by the way, I went into Walmart the other day knowing the company's objection to weapons on premises, BUT, the sign I saw on the main entrance door was the "unlicensed possession" sign, not a "no weapons allowed" sign.

I carry concealed, and I conceal well, so unless I know I have to go into a Court House for some reason, I just carry, Period, and don't worry about it.

My right of self defense trumps the right of someone who doesn't want me to carry my gun in their store anyway, because their demand denies my right while my demand to carry for self defense doesn't affect them one little bit as long as my weapon stays holstered... which it most certainly will unless I am called to defend myself or someone else in imminent danger. In that case, the only thing I want to hear from that store owner is "thank you very much".

On the other hand, some store owners are just plain stupid, so if I was in a "no gun" store where the owner was being attacked, I think I might just have to "ride it out" and let things unfold just like the store owner wants it to.
Store where armed citizen saved employee during stabbing posts 'No Guns' sign

You can always give Them a Business card like this one to show how You feel.

Yes, I saw a "no weapons" sign at the entrance to a hospital in Maine where I had an appointment yesterday for an exam. I was carrying concealed, but entered anyway. In the waiting room, I had a change of heart and asked my wife to put my gun in her purse because I suspected the doc or nurse would see or feel it and I didn't want to invite trouble. In Maine you don't even need a CC permit anymore so my wife was not breaking the law. As it turned out, the nurse would have seen it because she gave me an EKG.
I agree the worst that could have happened had they seen the "micro" is to ask me to leave. I have been in other exam rooms in other clinics with no "postings," the nurse saw my gun and laughed, saying that she also carried. No big deal.

ZOMBIE THREAD

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Forum consigliere

Nope, you are not alone... I think I went into one once just out of curiosity but in my book as a small-business owner they are anti-american in their purchising and labor practices.

Wish all you want, the law says the store is private property and the owners, subject to a few exceptions, can decide who comes in and who stays out. The Constitution and laws of the country make this decision, not a disgruntled gun owner. If the owner so decides, you can be trespassed off permanently and then it does become a matter of public record. Letter to the judge, a letter to the local cop shop, and a letter to you. If you object, send a letter to the owner. The owner can then decide if offending 3% or 4% of the population is worth offending the other 96%. On my property, my rights do supersede yours. You don't like it, stay off my property. I don't know you and with all the mall ninjas out there, why should I trust you with a gun on my property. If I don't know you , I probably won't hunt with you either for the same reasons. As an aside, I can forbid your gun and still carry mine, or allow my employees to carry. But I carry concealed and you won't know.

We argue that shootings in gun free areas are rare and declining and are actually aberrations . Makes it hard to walk into a gun free hardware store and justify walking past the sign. Nowhere does the Constitution give you the right to ignore the rights of another. Surprisingly, the original gave the states the right to control guns as opposed to the Feds, and guns could be controlled.

The People's Republic of Illinois has two different concealed carry laws, both exist solely because the feds forced them on the politicians. The first in time is for retired LEOs, and the only restriction on place of carry are the federal restrictions: prisons, federal courthouses, commercial airliners, etc. The 2d is for anyone who wants to pay the fees and do the training and is not disqualified due to convictions, mental illness, etc. That one lists target rich (OOPS! Law calls them "gun free") zones. These include the fed restrictions, plus adds schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. (Read - anyplace that has a history of mass shootings). These 2d restrictions do not apply to ex-LEOs carrying under the first permit. Basically, retired LEOs with the permit can carry anywhere off-duty LEOs can carry.
Therefor, the "no guns" signs do not apply to me except in unusual circumstances. Obviously, I do not patronize stores with such signs, and I politely tell them why. I do carry at church and at my grandchildren's school, both prohibited to holders of permits of the 2d type.
Did your state adopt a law to implement the Retired Officer Concealed Carry passed by the Feds? If so, is that law in compliance or in conflict with the federal law? If not, do the state restrictions apply to retired LEOs? Good questions for attorneys in your state.
Just thought I would add another flavor to the discussion.

I carry these for those occasions.

Attached Images

Card.jpg (96.1 KB, 26 views)

I myself would avoid these "gun free zones" for 2 simple facts. #1 they don't deserve my business and #2 is the fact that they are easy targets for criminals. I do not want to be in a situation where it is easy to be a victim due to the store owners negligence.

You make a fairly general assumption that those not carrying concealed or open are offended by others who chose to carry.

Yup but remember that the criminals, who are carrying a weapon of any type don't give a lick about your rights. We law abiding citizens do. And in those states that do NOT put the force of law behind those "no gun" signs, the person carrying on your property is not a criminal. And they will remain a law abiding citizen when you ask them to leave and they leave.

Not a Constitutional scholar here. But I do believe individual states ARE approaching the issue in different ways. And personally, I am comfortable with that versus a Federal intervention as the alternative.

And from what I see posted from time to time on this forum there are plenty of states that I just would not want to move to.

Oh, and yes it is an old thread but still a relevant discussion and probably always will be.

I am happy to report that Missouri is in full compliance with LEOSA as it applies to retired officers . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Every time i read a forum on this subject makes me happy i live in Texas.
At Walmarts where i live they do not use the 30.06 or 30.07 sign. In Texas
that would certainly cost them business and if they really did want to prevent legal carry in their store they would use them. Once this past
month, when carry my Glock 45 cal and my S&W Revolver with speed loaders, a speed loader fell out of my pocket in the checkout line. The
cashier looked at me disapprovingly when she saw it, and when i bent
over to pick it up don't know if she saw the Glock. Anyway i said to her
that if the Government did not keep bringing in criminal illegals and
ISIS sleepers i would not have to carry so much artillery around.
So don't blame me, blame the government is my view. I will honor any
legal sign but i would change my shopping habits when i see a legal sign.

I would and do C/C at some of the stores you are talking about , The bad guy wont care about their sign he will still come in and open fire . I just ask dont tell . If they see it which they never have and say or ask I would leave . If the cop pulls me over if he doesn't ask I DON 'T TELL . But I'am polite and keep hands on the wheel. Now no schools or court houses things like that .

I believe in Va. if it becomes an issue where the location is private property and ends up in court you can lose your CC permit. Of course the usual,schools, government buildings, etc goes it's a given and you can or will be charged and have a day in court.

Seems most mass shootings happen in gun free zones

The constitution doesn't "give" any rights...it recognises,affirms,protects etc but it doesn't give
I am a small business owner as well and understand your point of view. I control every aspect of my business as I see fit and make no appologies but when two rights collide I would say that the right to protect ones self outweighs ones property rights in a open to the public business

He is committing a trespass the second he steps past a sign. While the law says he needs to be told verbally before legal action can start, he has committed the trespass-and like it or not, can be permanently banned from the property as a matter of public record. Get the letter from the cops, and it moves up to being a crime.
You are arguing your personal philosophies against the law. You can and will lose if push comes to shove. You maintain your right to self defense by not passing the sign. No one forces you to cross the line.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trespass

The gun sign clearly says you can enter, but not with a gun. Owners rule.

The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property | Chron.com
Bill of Rights controls government actions , not the small business man or even the big box. Gun carriers are not a protected class when it comes to entering private property.

Unless your state deliberately orders an exception, carrying past a sign is wrong. The laws I read provide an escape for the carrier if he misses a sign and requires a verbal warning. But the trespass starts when you pass the sign, and you are in the wrong legally.

I live in a small town, and if I start getting banned, I have to start shopping out of town. You do what you want, but you are wrong if you ignore the signs. Argue it any way you want, you are wrong when you carry past a no gun sign. And rude.

If you try arguing that you are obeying a higher law, you will discover that written law will prevail.

Sometimes..........It's like....





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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Just like some States regulate whether you can carry open or concealed, or not, some states like Texas regulate the type of
signs your business can or cannot post. Also some states like
Texas regulate which signs you can or cannot enforce. In Texas
if you do not want someone carrying that has a permit you have a choice, follow the State requirements for the sign. This past
year the State reduced the penalty to a misdemeanor
for entering a property that has a legal enforceable sign.
A sign in english won't cut it, either, since the sign regulations
require your sign to be in both English and Spanish to be
enforcable. As a matter of principle though when I see a no
gun sign even that is not enforceable i let my friends know and
encourage them not to shop there. I have no problem avoiding
spending my money there. In other States any old no gun sign will do. If i open a business I may not like the State regulating
which signs i may use, or whether the sign is enforcable but thats the way it is in my state. I will say i really like our Texas
laws.

Precisely. Old saying, "Your rights end where my nose begins."

I'm not typing a big long response. I'll let the Missouri State Highway Patrol explain it to you. Page 4. I'll quote one passage:

"Carrying a concealed firearm in any location specified above is not a criminal act. However, you can be denied access to the premises or may be removed from the premises for doing so."

Missouri Concealed Weapons Law - MSHP

There's some other very good information in the brochure about Missouri's very friendly gun rights . . .

Drops mic.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In Ga. unless it is a Federal building it is of course off limits. State building either have to have a Metal detector or someone searching you or a prison. If the building doesn't meet these requirements you are allowed to carry. You can be ask to leave and if you don't then you are trespassing which is a misdemeanor. It depends on your state laws. I'm 5' 10" 185 lbs and CC a 1911 Govt and no one ever knows I have it.

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Aim Small Miss Small

I have never been to Missouri but if I were going to go to the trouble to
ask someone visiting me to disarm and leave their weapons in the parking lot, i would also search them, have them remove any pepper spray they
might be carrying, in sharp objects like scissors. Most all the items that
a Federal Building don't allow. And if some big shot from DC came to
visit me working for the census or whatever, i would also require them
to disarm, including the Secret Service, since they are not the police
and not on official business. I certainly don't trust them around me
carrying guns since all the reports are out there about drunk agents.

Life is so much simpler for us here in Texas.

Your opinions?


Retired cop sues deputies over gun arrest | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com

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Sure you did

Target stores announced they do not want any firearms carried in their store. This also includes off duty police officers. I wrote and argued with Target and they would not back off of that. So now, none of us will ever go into a Target store again. I also tell everyone I know, including all the PD and SO cops out here and we will never shop there again.

I am pretty sure we have hundreds of folks who will never go in there again. I will keep spreading it to everyone as well, hopefully you will no longer shop there.