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Old 08-16-2012, 07:29 AM
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Default Carrying where "No Guns" signs are posted.

I read time and again how folks think that it's not against the law to carry where the sign is posted. That it's "The store owner's rules and I can be asked to leave but it's not The Law".
It is law that one cannot carry in a posted area. The penalty is that one may be asked to leave by the shop owner. And if one refuses, the cops will be called.
A big deal was made in Ohio when the CC law was extended to bars (or restaurants that also serve alcohol). All of us trumpeted "hey - just post a sign. We'll either leave our guns outside or go elsewhere." Now I read a lot about folks pointedly ignoring this.

And when the media shouts "CC HOLDERS IGNORE WARNING SIGNS AND THE LAW - NONE OF US ARE SAFE" it won't be pretty.

I have to ask - when I see one of these signs it is damned obvious that the owner of this private property does not want anyone carrying a gun on their premises. Why would anyone ignore that property owners constitutional right? If your property is posted "no trespassing" how would you feel if you looked up and someone was standing in your yard? It's the same thing.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:04 AM
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If you feel this way don't carry if posted. You can't regulate what other people will do or not do. As far as the media using any indiscretions against gun owners happens all the time. I'm not really understanding where you want this discussion to go. There will always be otherwise law abiding citizens justifying the carry of their weapons in places that do not allow such carry. There will always be people who drive 5 miles over the speed limit. I guess some think that the safety of themselves and family, along with the 2nd amendment trumps what a sign may or may not say.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:08 AM
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... along with the 2nd amendment trumps what a sign may or may not say.
This is one direction the discussion could take.

Who is to say that the 2nd amendment right trumps private property rights? You are saying in essence that if I post my property "no guns allowed" or "no fishing" or "no whatever" that you have the right to ignore my rights.

And that ain't right.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:12 AM
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I will not give my business to a shop owner if he has a signed posted. Sure, you can "secretly" carry in, but WHY would you support a store like that?
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:33 AM
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I dropped my Costco membership in Phoenix because they posted signs forbidding weapons. I will not frequent Target or many other places due to their stances on weapons or other Liberal political bias.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
This is one direction the discussion could take.

Who is to say that the 2nd amendment right trumps private property rights? You are saying in essence that if I post my property "no guns allowed" or "no fishing" or "no whatever" that you have the right to ignore my rights.

And that ain't right.
I agree with you 100%. This issue is not just limited to gun vs property rights. I see people who are more than willing to impose on someone else and violate their rights so that they may enjoy their own perceived rights. This just shows a lack of respect for our fellow citizens. Common courtesy should dictate that people respect each other. If you don't respect me, don't expect a friendly reception.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CigarGuy View Post
I will not give my business to a shop owner if he has a signed posted. Sure, you can "secretly" carry in, but WHY would you support a store like that?
I totally agree with this. The correct solution to "gun free zones" is capitalism. Let the market decide that GFZs are a money loser, by gun owners not giving their money, businesses will stop doing it.

Of course, this takes a concerted effort by gun owners. Which is a big "if" due to so many that think seeing some movie is more important than the 2nd amendment.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
This is one direction the discussion could take.

Who is to say that the 2nd amendment right trumps private property rights? You are saying in essence that if I post my property "no guns allowed" or "no fishing" or "no whatever" that you have the right to ignore my rights.

And that ain't right.
You are correct! I still remember a comment made by a professor in a business law class I attended: "yes, you have rights...but only until they begin to infringe upon my rights." This is something many people fail to understand.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:30 AM
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I'm looking at this as what right does the shop owner to tell you that you don't have the right to protect your family or yourself. I agree at not supporting those businesses that don't support your carry rights. At the same time there may be a situation that you don't have a choice but to do business with said shop. As such I think a person's right to be safe trumps someone's antigun agenda.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:33 AM
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I will not give my business to a shop owner if he has a signed posted. Sure, you can "secretly" carry in, but WHY would you support a store like that?
I agree with that statement so much I won't buy ammo at Walmart anymore...they sell it because its profitable and in their best business interest but remember when they got rid of all evil guns? I still go in but won't buy anything gun related...my local gun store has everything I need and is a kindred spirit.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:39 AM
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I agree with that statement so much I won't buy ammo at Walmart anymore...they sell it because its profitable and in their best business interest but remember when they got rid of all evil guns? I still go in but won't buy anything gun related...my local gun store has everything I need and is a kindred spirit.

NOT a WalMart shopper, either. For anything. I thought I was the only one.
I give my ammo biz to my local reloader.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:42 AM
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I'm looking at this as what right does the shop owner to tell you that you don't have the right to protect your family or yourself. I agree at not supporting those businesses that don't support your carry rights. At the same time there may be a situation that you don't have a choice but to do business with said shop. As such I think a person's right to be safe trumps someone's antigun agenda.
Find me one example of a business owner telling you that you don't have "the right to protect your family or yourself." Find just one.

No one is forcing you go into that business - that is purely a decision made by you, no one else.

As far as you comment about having no choice but to do business with said shop, my bet is that is extremely small number of instances, and even then you still have choices.

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Old 08-16-2012, 10:52 AM
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Who is to say that the 2nd amendment right trumps private property rights? You are saying in essence that if I post my property "no guns allowed" or "no fishing" or "no whatever" that you have the right to ignore my rights.

And that ain't right

I would not equate a no fishing sign to a no guns allowed sign. Fishing isn't recognized in the US Constitution. I'm also not espousing that a ccw holder disregard a "No Guns Allowed" sign. I believe as stated by previous posters that I just would not patronize those establishments. In reality though if cc was done right how would you know anyone was disregarding the sign?
Although a restaurant,movie theater or retail store is privately owned it is dependent on public patronage to exist so I'm not sold on the no tresspassing or fishing comparison.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Lenny_D View Post
Who is to say that the 2nd amendment right trumps private property rights? You are saying in essence that if I post my property "no guns allowed" or "no fishing" or "no whatever" that you have the right to ignore my rights.

And that ain't right

I would not equate a no fishing sign to a no guns allowed sign. Fishing isn't recognized in the US Constitution. I'm also not espousing that a ccw holder disregard a "No Guns Allowed" sign. I believe as stated by previous posters that I just would not patronize those establishments. In reality though if cc was done right how would you know anyone was disregarding the sign?
Although a restaurant,movie theater or retail store is privately owned it is dependent on public patronage to exist so I'm not sold on the no tresspassing or fishing comparison.
In some jurisdictions, the No Guns Allowed sign has the force of law. Are you telling me that you would violate the law?
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:17 AM
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In some jurisdictions, the No Guns Allowed sign has the force of law. Are you telling me that you would violate the law?
I'm not "telling" you what I'd do. I would tell you that the last three big media grabbing headlines about mass shootings have ALL occured in gun free zones. You make up your own mind and I'll do the same.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:28 AM
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A couple of thoughts:

There is a concept called "higher law," which states that some rights trump man made laws. It's recognized in our system, English Common Law and Hindi law among others. The right to defend yourself and your family is one of those higher laws.

The your lawn or home analogy is completely off base, you do not live in you sub shop, it does not have the same legal standing in many jurisdictions as your actual home.

I rarely, if ever go into someplace where no carry signs are posted, however, I'm sure all of the dead in Colorado wish someone had been able to defend them. Gun free zones simply do not work and endanger the public. In the end, your right to be an anti-gun loon does not trump the public's right to protect themselves. I do not see where this even deserves debate.

Most of the above I addressed from a principle/theory standpoint. That said, I agree with most on here, the polite thing to do is go to a similar business that does allow CCW and respect the sign if at all possible. Why create strife if you can avoid it?
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by hudsonvalley View Post
I agree with that statement so much I won't buy ammo at Walmart anymore...they sell it because its profitable and in their best business interest but remember when they got rid of all evil guns? I still go in but won't buy anything gun related...my local gun store has everything I need and is a kindred spirit.
My comments following here only apply to Texas!!!
I just came from a Walmart Store and I carried. I do it all the time. In Texas if a store really does not want someone with a CHL to carry there, then they can post a legal 30.06 sign or a 51% sign. Otherwise its a suggestion. If anyone there thinks I am carrying and asks me I have an obligation to leave. But I agree with other posters, if I see any kind of no gun sign, if it is a legal sign I just don't go there, if it is
not a legal sign, I probably won't shop there either.

To me its like a yellow sign with a speed limit posted on it.
Thats a recommended speed, and is not enforcable.

Even if a business has no sign at all and confronts you about not carrying there, you are required by law to comply. But why shop with any business which wishes to compromise my
safety by requring me not to carry. Does anyone think for a minute that such a business would accept liability if a criminal assaults you on their property. I feel that they ought to be held liable once the no gun signs go up if anything happens on their property such as a criminal assault.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:01 PM
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My take on the Wal-Mart gun issue is Wal-Mart got a bad rap. Two of our three local Wal-Mart never stopped selling firearms. The third one did and I asked the manager why. His answer was, "We did not sell enough guns to make it profitable. We can make more money selling auto care items in that space." Sarah Brady and VPC may have touted some of the Wal-Marts dropping firearms, but I do not believe it ever was a corporate policy. They were only dropped if local management chose to do so.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
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Even if a business has no sign at all and confronts you about not carrying there, you are required by law to comply. But why shop with any business which wishes to compromise my
safety by requring me not to carry. Does anyone think for a minute that such a business would accept liability if a criminal assaults you on their property. I feel that they ought to be held liable once the no gun signs go up if anything happens on their property such as a criminal assault.
I agree 100%
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:39 PM
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I totally IGNORE all such silly signs!

AND, it is NOT the same as posting your private property with NO HUNTING signs!!

We are talking about places where the public is invited in to buy whatever they might be selling. You are talking about your private property.

One local stop-n-go type gas station put up a sign that guns were not welcome and I went in and handed the owner one of the little cards explaining what I had to do get get a CCW...as compared to his customers who don't have a CCW. I explained that I would not be back as long as my sidearm was not welcome!

Next day the sign was gone......

I will not be a victim in a restaurant sitting on my hands if some nut case drops by to get even with his wife/etc.

You do whatever you feel is right. I'll carry unless it is illegal!
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:53 PM
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in some states the sign has force of law, others the sign is just an opinion.
I rather like the states where the sign has no force of law. Not so much that I may carry in spite of it, but rather to save wear and tear on my holster when I travel. its in, out, gone, and cross em off the list for the next time through.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:09 PM
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If your weapon is truly concealed, no one will know that you are carrying unless there is a critical situation that requires you to pull, at which point I would think everyone would be grateful except possibly the offender. I don't think much about it and I don't check every door I pass through to check for signs prohibiting firearms. I used to be more self conscience about CCW, but I am comfortable with it now. I don't worry about printing because I pretty much dress around my weapon.
It seems like a lot of the places that have the "no firearms" signs, are the places that I would think would welcome a person with a legally concealed weapon, such as banks and such.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:21 PM
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Carrying onto the premises of a "No carry" establishment is a moot point until a person has to voluntarily make the firearm visible, or somehow allows the CCW to be seen. It's another lawsuit waiting to happen.

"No carry" policies in commercial establishments have nothing to do with usurping individual rights ... they are proprietary conduct policies, not far removed from "No shirts, no shoes, no service" ... I have a right to do most anything I want on my property, from cutting the grass, to letting my dog dig holes, to relieving a full bladder on the black walnut tree out back. If I go into Store X, I have to comport myself differently based on that store's policies. Are my rights violated or impugned in any way? Absolutely not. If Store X requires no carry, okay ... I either patronize Store X armed only with non-firearm items (flashlight, knife, pepper spray, etc.), or go to Store Y.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:37 PM
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Here in AZ if one carries in a store where a sign asks that you not carry, it only becomes a problem IF they notice your hidden handgun and they ask you to leave. If you do not leave, then you are trespassing. What ever happens after that, happens.

So,, if you carry some place the management does not want you to carry, AND they discover you and ask you to leave, be cool and leave, no harm no fowl
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:25 PM
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<shaking head> I still don't understand WHY you would WANT to give stores like that your business. I mean, isn't it enabling bad behaviour?
Anyways, I'm done, I'll just slink away now......
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:32 PM
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So what I'm reading from quite a few is that it's not cheating unless you get caught?

And as far as there being a difference between my private property and someone else who uses their private property to conduct business - no there is not. People are "invited" as long as they comply with the law and the rules of the establishment. If the law says that if I put a "no guns" sign up you are not allowed to carry in my establishment then you are not invited if you have a gun. Pretty simple concept.
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:58 PM
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<shaking head> I still don't understand WHY you would WANT to give stores like that your business. I mean, isn't it enabling bad behaviour?
Anyways, I'm done, I'll just slink away now......
Oh don't misunderstand - I walk away from these places.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:19 PM
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I have one concern - that is can you see the sign?

I was in a national chain jewelry store, then I saw someone post that the place was a sheeple zone.

When we went back, I had to really look for the sign -- I had to be suspicious -- once I saw it, I stayed in the car and let the wife do her business inside.

We found a different store after that.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:24 PM
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My second concern - and I am not a lawyer and recognize that local laws will impact this -

Say you are knowingly inside a no carry posted place of business and have to use your firearm.

Are you not subject to civil lawsuits from everyone in the place - owner, employees, customers, the "victim" -- those walking by, those in the next business owner.
You knowingly put their lives at risk.

I am not saying not to do it ... what are the odds ... better to be judged by 200 than carried by 6 (or something)

And, I /believe/ many situations are deescalated by display of the equalizer - where no further action is needed.
Walking away is always a good outcome.

My policy is to first avoid, then flee ...
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:37 PM
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<shaking head> I still don't understand WHY you would WANT to give stores like that your business. I mean, isn't it enabling bad behaviour?
Anyways, I'm done, I'll just slink away now......
sometimes its an inconvenient position, such as trips far from familiar territory. you will eventually find yourself low on coffee somewhere you've never been before. lacking local knowledge you have no real way of finding gun friendly shops. Sure, you have the option of turning around and heading to the next closest place your GPS or smartphone lists, which also may have a sign and repeat the procedure till you finally find one after wasting a few hours of your life.
Now in your own stomping grounds, its largely a different story where you had better know where the sanctuaries of reason are.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:54 PM
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So what I'm reading from quite a few is that it's not cheating unless you get caught?

And as far as there being a difference between my private property and someone else who uses their private property to conduct business - no there is not. People are "invited" as long as they comply with the law and the rules of the establishment. If the law says that if I put a "no guns" sign up you are not allowed to carry in my establishment then you are not invited if you have a gun. Pretty simple concept.
Obviously it's not a simple concept, since the opinions are widespread. From many people's point of view your sign, unless it's followed up by armed security guards you've hired to protect occupants in a store, amounts to a negligent and willful failure to protect their families and them from the ever increasing possibility of a nut shooting the place up. Their right to protect themselves and themselves trumps your political views.

Business owners rights are not the same as homeowners rights, I've said that once already. Yet, many seem to try to compare them, which is fallacy.

You seem to be trying to make this a simple black and white argument at it's not.
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:43 PM
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Simple for this old guy---I don't go in,
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:27 PM
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I think I've made my feelings know on this before, so just an afterthought.

It scares the beejeebers out of me at the thought of a loaded, unsecured handgun left in a car. If it comes out of the house with me, it stays with me until it goes back in the safe.
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:50 PM
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I always honor the sign. I have a choice to leave my gun in the truck or go elsewhere. Just don't give them your money.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:01 PM
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Obviously it's not a simple concept, since the opinions are widespread. From many people's point of view your sign, unless it's followed up by armed security guards you've hired to protect occupants in a store, amounts to a negligent and willful failure to protect their families and them from the ever increasing possibility of a nut shooting the place up. Their right to protect themselves and themselves trumps your political views.

Business owners rights are not the same as homeowners rights, I've said that once already. Yet, many seem to try to compare them, which is fallacy.

You seem to be trying to make this a simple black and white argument at it's not.
You and I do disagree. I say the business owner's rights as they pertain to their private property are the same as the homeowner's.

And by posting their "no guns" sign, they are putting you on notice that you are not to carry a gun on their property.

And offering you the opportunity to stay out of their place of business if you do not like it.

It is very simple.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:15 PM
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Everyone has great Opinions and all valid here in Texas the sign displayed must PC 30.06 compliant sign By simply making a sign the owner is in violation as "they" must post the proper" In Texas, a business must post a PC 30.06 compliant sign to keep out CHL holders who are armed. The law is VERY specific about wording, font type and font size, color contrast, and sign location. Unless a sign complies 100% with the 30.06 requirements, anyone who is armed and carrying under the authority of their CHL can ignore the sign and walk right past it. Of course since in Texas CCW gun carriers must not let that weapon concealed in a maner to be seen by others.
of course to simply have CCW Permit here in Texas you must meet at leas the following:
HAVE NO FELONY CONVICTIONS - LIFETIME
O CLASS A OR B MISDEMEANORS WITHIN THE LAST FIE YEARS
PASSED BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL FINGERPRINT AND BACKGROUND CHECKS
NO DELINQUENT CONDUCT WITHIN THE PAST 10 YEARS
NOT DELINQUENT IN CHILD SUPPORT, STUDENT LOANS, OR STATE/LOCAL TAXES
Lastly we must be courtious to and always infrom any law enforcement offcier we have the permit if we have a weapon on us or in our car Etc. You may save your life be keeping your cool no matter what a LE officer is doing to you.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:50 PM
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So what if they put up a "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED"(or some other religion) sign? I'd consider self defense to be as basic of a Right as a religion. You guys now think that the offending party should stay away?
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:01 PM
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So what if they put up a "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED"(or some other religion) sign? I'd consider self defense to be as basic of a Right as a religion. You guys now think that the offending party should stay away?
No as there are no provisions in the law for such a sign. There are specific provisions for posting a sign where a CC holder may not carry a gun.

That is if the CC holder wants to be a law-abiding citizen, of course.

Some seem to be confusing the right to bear arms with the privilege of having a concealed carry permit.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:07 PM
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No as there are no provisions in the law for such a sign. There are specific provisions for posting a sign where a CC holder may not carry a gun.

That is if the CC holder wants to be a law-abiding citizen, of course.

Some seem to be confusing the right to bear arms with the privilege of having a concealed carry permit.
There are no provisions in FL law that says I can't go into a business with some sort of sign. So I'm good right, you're just talking about other States?

Last edited by hatt; 08-16-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:21 PM
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2ndshift presents a- interesting situation. The store is the only one in the area with what you may really need- it's posted 'No Firearms.' My first thought- oh man, now what do I do?' 2nd thought, Ok, I'll disarm, it's his property.
But that brings to mind something I've mentioned before- if someone robs the store while I'm in there, my wife is hurt or something- then I should be able to sue the property owner's pants off for denying me 1) my 2ndA right but more importantly 2) denying my ability to protect my wife.
I really wish someone would bring a suit for that situation- the CO theatre is a perfect 'playground' for a class-action suit.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:26 PM
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2ndshift presents a- interesting situation. The store is the only one in the area with what you may really need- it's posted 'No Firearms.' My first thought- oh man, now what do I do?' 2nd thought, Ok, I'll disarm, it's his property.
But that brings to mind something I've mentioned before- if someone robs the store while I'm in there, my wife is hurt or something- then I should be able to sue the property owner's pants off for denying me 1) my 2ndA right but more importantly 2) denying my ability to protect my wife.
I really wish someone would bring a suit for that situation- the CO theatre is a perfect 'playground' for a class-action suit.
It is indeed. I would imagine after the trial convicting "it" of multiple murders, the civil suits will begin.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:27 PM
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There are no provisions in FL law that says I can't go into a business with some sort of sign. So I'm good right, you're just talking about other States?
Beats me, I'm in Ohio.

As a CC holder it is your responsibility to be aware of local laws, right? You may want to read your manual.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:33 PM
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Beats me, I'm in Ohio.

As a CC holder it is your responsibility to be aware of local laws, right? You may want to read your manual.
Well played lol. I thought you were playing all the angles at one time and you proved there was a additional angle you could play.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:46 PM
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You and I do disagree. I say the business owner's rights as they pertain to their private property are the same as the homeowner's.

And by posting their "no guns" sign, they are putting you on notice that you are not to carry a gun on their property.

And offering you the opportunity to stay out of their place of business if you do not like it.

It is very simple.
Try walking around your store nude and let me know how that works out. Have sex with your wife on a display couch in your furniture store business hours and see how that goes. Got sot faced, falling down drunk in your store and see if you get charged with public intoxication. Clearly your home with the blinds closed and your business are not the same in the legal system. Just as the second poster told you, you have your position and that's all it is, your position, it is not the only logical one. Obviously many people on here, don't think your position is the only one.

As I said in my original post, I generally avoid places with signs to be polite and avoid the hassle, but that does not mean I fail to see both sides of the issue. I tend to go your way more times than not, but at times for example, when I am driving out of town, need gas and see thugs all over the parking lot, I could care less what your sign says and I'm not running out of gas to appease you either.

I'm not trying to hassle you, but your argument is the simple part of the debate, not the answer. If it were a clear cut deal, the consensus would agree with you and it's clearly split.

Either way, good post, it's led to an interesting debate.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:02 PM
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Here in the 49th and final state to allow concealed carry of guns, the law is clear.

If the owner posts a sign it must be 5"x7" minimum, and can say just about anything as long as it conveys the idea that you shouldn't have anything that could be construed as a weapon.... So just about any sign will work.

The punishment for ignoring such a sign is a fine of $200.

I know I'm not turning around and walking away in most cases. I am concealing and nobody knows.

I DO believe any business that REMOVES my right to defend myself should be responsible for my protection while in their establishment.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:13 PM
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This topic always cracks me up. There is no logical basis for establishing a gun-free zone. It accomplishes the opposite of what is intended, making an area more dangerous, not less. The people putting up such signs are being foolish. One of the C's in CCW stands for concealed. Keep it concealed and the foolish will be none the wiser. For those of you all bent out of shape over concern for the foolish one's property rights, well gee, I have to admire your sensitivity, if not your opinion.

Last edited by aphelion; 08-16-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:45 PM
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I'm looking at this as what right does the shop owner to tell you that you don't have the right to protect your family or yourself. I agree at not supporting those businesses that don't support your carry rights. At the same time there may be a situation that you don't have a choice but to do business with said shop. As such I think a person's right to be safe trumps someone's antigun agenda.
Not trying to be mean...but I think this is a strange mentally for an LEO.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:07 PM
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As has already been said, comparing property rights and the God given right of self protection is not a valid arguement nor does it make sense.

If you posted a no tresspassing sign on your PRIVATE property, I would not tresspass. If I did I would expect to be approached. But either way, you would never know I was armed.

If you owned your own business and posted such a sign, I might enter if I chose to do so. And again, you would never know I was armed.

If I had to defend myself on your property, the last thing I'm concerned about are your property rights.

The right of self protection and preservation trumps any and all such property laws.

I defy and oppose anyone who tries to prohibit me from protecting myself because they don't like guns. Of course I will abide by Federal and state laws but that's it.

One major factor that some of you are forgetting is CONCEALMENT. If I was open carrying then maybe you would have a valid arguement.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:09 PM
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Not trying to be mean...but I think this is a strange mentally for an LEO.
What's so strange about it? That's normal thinking to me.

No man or no sign has the right to deny you the right to protect yourself unless they are supported by law.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:14 PM
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And what about the people at the Colorado theater shooting? Where were their stinking rights?

Everybody is worried about their sorry property rights! What about those who died or were injured?

Your property rights or anti gun sentiments do NOT supercede human flesh and blood!!
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