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Old 08-20-2012, 06:19 AM
Jeff1000 Jeff1000 is offline
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Question Massachusetts Reason To Carry Concealed

Hey guys, first post looking for some feedback.

I'm in Worcester, Massachusetts trying to come up with a strategy to secure a license to carry (Class A License). The chief of police has a reputation for never issuing a Class A without the restriction of "just for sport and target". I deeply resent this and find it unacceptable.

I've been trying to come with a reason (to write on the application) as to why I need a license to carry a concealed handgun. This is what I've come up with:

"For all lawful purposes; to exercise my second amendment rights, and for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as stated in the Declaration Of Independence."

I'm trying to keep as simple as possible with the most compelling argument possible. Any thoughts on this? Thanks!

Last edited by Jeff1000; 08-20-2012 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:28 AM
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I don't have any idea how this application system works, but 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' actually comes from the Declaration of Independence. Hopefully someone will come along who has had success in a 'may issue' situation.

I wish you luck; it must be very frustrating.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:00 AM
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But of course you're right, it's in the DOI. Believe it or not I actually knew that but I had a mental lapse. The second amendment is in "The Bill Of Rights". Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, it is a "may issue" situation and it's potentially very frustrating.

Here's a local news story about a lawyer with a clean record (and a more compelling reason than myself to desire to carry) who was turned down by the chief. I wonder what chance I have, probably zero. It seems that if this lawyer wasn't deemed suitable who exactly would or could be?

Suit aims at policy on guns - Worcester Telegram & Gazette - telegram.com

In another article I read that Chief Gemme automatically puts the "sporting and target" restriction on all first time appliers. This is just wrong: unelected bureaucrats choosing winners and losers.

Anyway, I appreciate your well wishes and reply. Thanks.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:15 AM
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You could cite that Worcester has a crime index if 12 (scale of 1 to 100 where 100 is the safest).
You could cite that their rate of assault is three time the nation average and the odds of being victimized by violent crime in Worcester are are 1 in 103.
You could cite that their crimes per sq mile are 5X the national median.
You could explain that the rate of violent crime decreases significantly in "shall issue" states and Worcester's unconstitutional policies contribute to their high rate of crime.

Unfortunatly, I'm sure you're wasting your time. At least they make a good seasoning sauce... oh wait, that's not them. Move.

Worcester crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s&wchad View Post
You could cite that Worcester has a crime index if 12 (scale of 1 to 100 where 100 is the safest).
You could cite that their rate of assault is three time the nation average and the odds of being victimized by violent crime in Worcester are are 1 in 103.
You could cite that their crimes per sq mile are 5X the national median.
You could explain that the rate of violent crime decreases significantly in "shall issue" states and Worcester's unconstitutional policies contribute to their high rate of crime.

Unfortunatly, I'm sure you're wasting your time. At least they make a good seasoning sauce... oh wait, that's not them. Move.

Worcester crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout
Thanks for your help. I'll keep that data close to the vest.

I'm going to give it a shot (no pun intended). I really only have a need for HD and the shooting range, but that's not really the point is it. If I have a need to carry I'll carry whether I have a Class A or not. These nanny state liberals certainly don't give a rat's *** about my rights or my safety.

I understand the concept behind moving in that each state, in this case city, is like an experimental lab and if you don't like a certain jurisdiction you can simply move since the Constitution is still intact (relatively speaking of course). I simply don't want to move though.

Anyway, thanks again.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:40 AM
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Give GOAL a call. They can tell you whether anything is possible, and give the name of a lawyer who handles this (if there is any possibility). You might also consider applying from the location of your place of business, if it is different, or moving to another town.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:17 PM
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1: "Because the local PD refuses to issue me a LEO"
2: "Because I'm 68 years old and have no other way to defend myself against the druggies mugging people in my community"
3: And, finally, "Because the 2nd A gives me that right".

Or you could move next door to Vermont avoiding all this and living in a state with a very low crime rate.

Just one of the reasons I left the Bay State when I graduated from HS.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:40 PM
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Since your changes are zip anyway, why don't you tell him that you wouldn't have to apply for a CCP if he would do his job. At least you might have some satisfaction. Of course this suggestion is tongue in cheek.
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:02 PM
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I heard this on another forum:

"Personal protection inside and outside the home, further training, sporting, collection, all lawful purposes."

I decided that quoting crime stats would be like telling the chief that he sucks at his job :-). The second amendment thing is not news to anyone and may make it seem like I'm a gun nut with an agenda.

Thanks for the further replies.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:31 PM
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You are making the assumption that he is logical and is willing to listen to reason. Most likely, he simply doesn't want, and isn't going to allow, anyone to carry in his jurisdiction. Regardless of the Constitution, your rights, logic, or any good reason.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:58 PM
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The trouble with dealing with people of authority, especially sheriffs or police chiefs, is that they see any reference to the Constitution or Declaration of Independence as a potential confrontation. They're generally not in a position to defend their rules or regulations. Their argument is simply, "That's the way it is!". You're not going to sway him with truth or logic. Why don't you just pack up your family and move to Alaska? We don't have those silly permits up here.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
You are making the assumption that he is logical and is willing to listen to reason. Most likely, he simply doesn't want, and isn't going to allow, anyone to carry in his jurisdiction. Regardless of the Constitution, your rights, logic, or any good reason.
I think that sums it up but I believe behind his decision is a political motive. Most chiefs jobs are appointed, therefore to keep their jobs they reflect the ideas of the local select board members. If issuing cc permits upsets these folks, they are not going to do so.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
You are making the assumption that he is logical and is willing to listen to reason. Most likely, he simply doesn't want, and isn't going to allow, anyone to carry in his jurisdiction. Regardless of the Constitution, your rights, logic, or any good reason.
Exactly correct John, I know that, but I still want to give it my best shot. Thanks.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:40 PM
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This is an excellent question and thread, Jeff. I had the same question in my mind when considering a non-resident MA CCW permit.

There's a pretty interesting thread on USACarry.com that might give you additional insight:

Difficulty in obtaining Non Resident Carry Permit (Class A) in Mass?

In the end, "personal protection and safety" was the only justification I could come up with, which I suspect won't cut the mustard, so I saved myself $100/year and gave up on the idea.

- Dave
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:22 PM
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You might well be right. However to some people it might sound similar to, "Bite me"! Ah knows muh rights?
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:29 PM
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It's sad that one of the birthplaces of the US has become such a cesspool and the exact opposite of what the Founding Fathers envisioned.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:38 PM
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It's probably just easier to MOVE.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff1000 View Post
I heard this on another forum:

"Personal protection inside and outside the home, further training, sporting, collection, all lawful purposes."

I decided that quoting crime stats would be like telling the chief that he sucks at his job :-). The second amendment thing is not news to anyone and may make it seem like I'm a gun nut with an agenda.

Thanks for the further replies.
I'd think the fact that the police chief sucks at his job would be the best reason
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:16 AM
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Default Mass. unrestricted class A LTC

Jeff, I'm live in Western Mass. and had no problem in my city for an unrestricted class A LTC. Someone I know went to get an unrestricted class A LTC in a city where the police chief will not issue one unless you are a LEO. When he stated that he qualified for one according to Mass. law he was told if he wanted to carry, to join a gun club with 24 hour access, which is the same one I belong to. He was also told by the PD to just say, he was on his way there to go target shooting if any LEO questioned his carrying.
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:48 AM
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Jeff, I'm live in Western Mass. and had no problem in my city for an unrestricted class A LTC. Someone I know went to get an unrestricted class A LTC in a city where the police chief will not issue one unless you are a LEO. When he stated that he qualified for one according to Mass. law he was told if he wanted to carry, to join a gun club with 24 hour access, which is the same one I belong to. He was also told by the PD to just say, he was on his way there to go target shooting if any LEO questioned his carrying.
We shouldn't have to play these games to exercise rights granted to us as an American citizen.

The law abiding citizen is immediately put on the defensive to explain why his rights should be granted. My rights are as clear as the Bill of Rights. What's not clear is the reason the chief has for limiting my rights.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
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We shouldn't have to play these games to exercise rights granted to us as an American citizen.

The law abiding citizen is immediately put on the defensive to explain why his rights should be granted. My rights are as clear as the Bill of Rights. What's not clear is the reason the chief has for limiting my rights.
Just to add, it should be turned around to "why are you restricting my rights rather than what is my reason for my wanting a LTC". My rights are as plain as day, what's not clear is the chief's rationale for restricting my rights. The law abiding citizen is immediately put on the defensive to explain his rights (reasons) that are as clear as the Bill Of Rights. What's never clear is why is the chief is restricting those rights. If my record is clean, and I want to exercise my second amendment rights, the only explanation I should need is the Constitution, yet we're being forced to give a reason for the rights that are granted to us as an American citizen. It's more like what right does the chief have to restrict my rights, and not the other way around.

Last edited by Jeff1000; 08-21-2012 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:37 AM
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From the police chief's point of view, issuing a permit is a no-win action.

If you never cause any trouble with the gun, he gets no kudos. If you do cause trouble, "Why the hell did you ever issue a permit to that moron in the first place?!"

So it is safer for him to never issue a gun permit, or to issue one with restrictions so that if you do get in trouble it will probably be by ignoring the restrictions...that is, "not my fault". In other words it is not in his best interests to issue permits with no restrictions.

I think you have only two reliable options: First, get some high ranking official in your pocket and have him put pressure on the chief, explaining that it is in his best interests that you be issued a permit.. Or, black mail. Find out who the chief is/was having an affair with and advise him it is in his best interests to issue your permit.

The key here being "in his best interests".

Clearly he feels issuing permits are not in his best interests. You need to convince him otherwise. Is he an elected official? Maybe form a gun owners group that votes. (Or black mail.)
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
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From the police chief's point of view, issuing a permit is a no-win action.

If you never cause any trouble with the gun, he gets no kudos. If you do cause trouble, "Why the hell did you ever issue a permit to that moron in the first place?!"

So it is safer for him to never issue a gun permit, or to issue one with restrictions so that if you do get in trouble it will probably be by ignoring the restrictions...that is, "not my fault". In other words it is not in his best interests to issue permits with no restrictions.

I think you have only two reliable options: First, get some high ranking official in your pocket and have him put pressure on the chief, explaining that it is in his best interests that you be issued a permit.. Or, black mail. Find out who the chief is/was having an affair with and advise him it is in his best interests to issue your permit.

The key here being "in his best interests".

Clearly he feels issuing permits are not in his best interests. You need to convince him otherwise. Is he an elected official? Maybe form a gun owners group that votes. (Or black mail.)
All good realistic points here. Thanks.

What I don't get is since when is the chief responsible for my actions? What if I just watched someone die and I didn't act because I wasn't armed, then it seems to me the chief should be held responsible for not issuing me a license, but both arguments are ludicrous. Bottom line, the chief is in no way responsible for my actions just as a gun is not responsible for a killing.

Also, it's probably not in the chief's best interest to continue to conduct business as usual since the crime statistics in the city of Worcester are deplorable.

Back to the real world of human nature, corruption, and politics: I believe you're absolutely correct.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
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...What I don't get is since when is the chief responsible for my actions? ...
He is not accountable for your actions; he is accountable for his.

So you shoot your neighbor. You are responsible for your action.

But he provided the permit. He is responsible for issuing the permit which provided you with the gun with which you shot the neighbor. So the question to him is "Did you thoroughly vet this individual before issuing the permit? Did you know of the previous bad blood between this individual and the now-dead neighbor? You should have known--all the other neighbors knew."

When I applied for my permit in 1977 (issued in 1978), not only did I get an FBI background check, so did my references (two were cops and were already cleared). Also they sent a cop around to interview my neighbors and see if I were a trouble maker. The process took 9 months. They performed a due diligence that your police chief probably does not have the budget for.

So maybe if you bury your chief with enough paper affadvits from your neighbors saying you are a stable and responsible individual, and a note from a psychologist saying the same, he would feel secure enough to issue a permit with no restrictions.

I guess I would write to him and ask what kind of documentation would make him feel secure enough to issue a no-restriction permit. I'll bet no one has ever asked him what would make him feel at ease enough to do so.

I might write:

Dear Chief,

I would like to apply for a no-restriction carry permit. I can provide notarized letters from my neighbors, my co-workers, my employer and my granddaughter saying that I am a stable and responsible individual.

I can provide a psychological evaluation stating that I am fit to carry a fire arm.

A FBI background check will find that I have no criminal record.

Would that documentation be sufficient to issue a no-restriction permit? If not, what additional information would you require?

Regards,

Your Loving Neighbor...
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:42 AM
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MA is "unique" wrt the Constitution (it does NOT apply here, my chief even said so to my Wife), their power over whether or not you can even own a gun, and the convoluted process required.

Asking about this on a national forum will get you lots of answers which will NOT help you one bit in MA to get your LTC-A!

IIRC you already asked this on the proper regional forum where experts (including myself) who actually understand the process and application of those laws actively participate. There is a thread there (northeastshooters.com) which is a Sticky, written by a MA firearms attorney (who was later banned from the forum) on how to deal with the application process and what to write.

Worcester is a real problem for residents getting unrestricted permits, but I'll admit to not knowing the current status in Worcester.

Also in MA what will work for those that are connected vs. those that are unknowns will be different even in "red/black" towns (see thread on rating towns in regional forum). In >30 years, my Wife and I have never put down anything more than "All Lawful Purposes" and never written a letter in justification. We live in a "red" town, but we are well known in the town and both serve in various capacities as appointed officials. Most others that are unknown would be rejected if they merely put that on their applications in this town.

Also be advised that MGL only allows a business OWNER to obtain their permit in the town they have the business in, everyone else (employees) must get their permit only from the town they live in.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:43 AM
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Packard, I think that an unelected bureaucrat (like a police chief) is just creating strawmen arguments to deny law abiding citizens their constitutional right to arm themselves, for whatever reason (which is not clear at all). My rights are clear, his objections are unclear, and yet I'm put on the defensive to provide evidence, beyond my lawfulness, that I have a right to my right. It's ridiculous, and the chief knows, but it doesn't matter. All that matters is the agenda.

The bigger picture is that liberal philosophies are opposed to the second amendment, and Massachusetts politics is liberal to the bone, and these politicians are the people that appoint the chief of police.

Every excuse, argument, road block, straw man argument is designed to deny the citizen's right to exercise the second amendment rights. It has nothing to do with safety, the chief's accountability, or any other excuse they can come up with. It's about a liberal philosophy that is lawless in not respecting the law of the land which is the constitution.

Best Regards.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:14 AM
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I wouldnt expect much from the people of mass that keep re electing politicans such as bawney fwank.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:37 AM
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I wouldnt expect much from the people of mass that keep re electing politicans such as bawney fwank.
Quoted for truth!

MA media is totally anti-gun, no help there, they will spin anything to the anti-side no matter what you do.

MA residents/voters are anti-gun or totally ambivalent and this even included lots of gun owners. Very few "CCW", most merely possess guns for hunting or target shooting. ~250K licenses in MA (required for mere possession) but the state rights group only has 12-15K members! Legislation is what GOAL does (per their corporate charter) but we don't have enough "friends" in the legislature to accomplish anything and I don't expect that we will ever have the numbers to do that. That should tell you a lot.

www.comm2a.org has a charter of filing lawsuits in Fed Court and they have been working with SAF to accomplish some good where we can't do anything legislatively.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:09 PM
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I missed the thread on NES, but LenS is very well versed in the laws and process in MA to get a LTC.

To show members of the forum how whacky the law is, LenS lives in a "red" town, which means that it's very hard to get a LTC for other than target and hunting. I live in a neighboring town, which is "green". It all depends on how the police chief feels about the subject.

Which is why the work that Comm2A is doing is so important.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:37 PM
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Jeff ... Waxing poetic about the 2nd Amendment on the application is a guarantee that it will be rejected. You'll be viewed somewhere between a wise-acre and a trouble maker.

Keep it simple ... something along the line of "all lawful purposes" or "personal protection". Your best advice will come from a knowledgeable FFL or lawyer in your area who has played the game before.

I lived in CT for many years, and it was originally tough to get a CCW because applicants had to go through their municipalities first, then the state. Numerous local authorities simply refused to sign off on the city permits. I believe several class action suits were filed over the years, and once the state law was changed, the process became significantly easier. I also had a non-rez MA permit for a while, but decided not to jump through the inane hoops every year, or pay the outrageous fee. MA is not a state I anticipate visiting ever again, so I'm not particularly concerned.

Good luck with your application.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:06 AM
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Jeff ... Waxing poetic about the 2nd Amendment on the application is a guarantee that it will be rejected. You'll be viewed somewhere between a wise-acre and a trouble maker.

Keep it simple ... something along the line of "all lawful purposes" or "personal protection". Your best advice will come from a knowledgeable FFL or lawyer in your area who has played the game before.

I lived in CT for many years, and it was originally tough to get a CCW because applicants had to go through their municipalities first, then the state. Numerous local authorities simply refused to sign off on the city permits. I believe several class action suits were filed over the years, and once the state law was changed, the process became significantly easier. I also had a non-rez MA permit for a while, but decided not to jump through the inane hoops every year, or pay the outrageous fee. MA is not a state I anticipate visiting ever again, so I'm not particularly concerned.

Good luck with your application.
Thankyou Sir, "keep it simple" duly noted and taken to heart.

Also, I appreciate everyone's responses. Thankyou so much for all the help. It's been my pleasure and honor to talk to you fellow Patriots. Thankyou so much!
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:32 AM
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I feel your pain being a resident of MA. If it weren't for my job, family and friends, I would be out of here in a heartbeat due to these ridiculous laws and restrictions regarding guns. Thankfully I live in a "Green" town, and wasn't even questioned about my reasons for wanting to obtain my LTC class A. Unfortunately that doesn't get rid of the many other ridiculous hoops this state makes you jump through in order to buy guns, magazines, ammo, etc.

Hang in there, and if all else fails with this shmuck of a police chief, head about 1.5 hours north west to my "neck of the woods". The worst thing that you'll deal with is the 4 week turnaround to get your LTC after you hand in that paperwork.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:53 AM
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I feel your pain being a resident of MA. If it weren't for my job, family and friends, I would be out of here in a heartbeat due to these ridiculous laws and restrictions regarding guns. Thankfully I live in a "Green" town, and wasn't even questioned about my reasons for wanting to obtain my LTC class A. Unfortunately that doesn't get rid of the many other ridiculous hoops this state makes you jump through in order to buy guns, magazines, ammo, etc.

Hang in there, and if all else fails with this shmuck of a police chief, head about 1.5 hours north west to my "neck of the woods". The worst thing that you'll deal with is the 4 week turnaround to get your LTC after you hand in that paperwork.
Thanks macski, I sympathize about the laws. Congrats though on your LTC Class A.

I have some questions but they're a different topic (if that's ok). I was wondering if it's feasible to conceal carry a full-size M&P9 or 40? I don't like compact pistols and I don't want to own one. I've really got my eye on the 40 though. What's the story with the M&P45? Can I legally own one of those in Mass?

This is open to anyone who wants to reply. Thanks.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:13 AM
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I have heard of plenty of people conceal carrying FS guns without a problem. It's not an option for me because of my smaller frame, which is why the m&p9c is perfect for what I need. But to each his own.

And yes, I do believe S&W makes both a MA compliant 45 and 45C
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:14 AM
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Jeff, I'm live in Western Mass. and had no problem in my city for an unrestricted class A LTC. Someone I know went to get an unrestricted class A LTC in a city where the police chief will not issue one unless you are a LEO. When he stated that he qualified for one according to Mass. law he was told if he wanted to carry, to join a gun club with 24 hour access, which is the same one I belong to. He was also told by the PD to just say, he was on his way there to go target shooting if any LEO questioned his carrying.
A practical solution. I understand you would rather have your license without restrictions, but this is a good place to start.

FYI, I think the practice of restricting first-time issues is not uncommon. It was used here in Indiana when I received my first permit decades ago. After that, the permit was renewed without restrictions. Probably an "old way" of doing things.

I would sure give what Tekoy suggests a try, rather than doing without. I also agree with others that your best approach by far is to forego any Constitutional/legal mumbo-jumbo and just deal with the facts. I thought this was good:

"Personal protection inside and outside the home, further training, sporting, collection, all lawful purposes."

I agree that Chiefs are essentially in a what's-in-it-for-me position. You have to deal with them with that in mind. Good luck!
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:15 AM
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OP, you're probably going to get shot down with the reasons you propose. You want an LTC-A because you fear for your life. Then cite examples of incidents in your community and where you go, your personal experiences that put you at risk. Stay away from the rights and second amendment stuff. Good luck!

The 45c is not MA compliant. Check with your FFL.

Last edited by icemn; 08-22-2012 at 10:18 AM. Reason: addtl info
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:27 AM
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I have heard of plenty of people conceal carrying FS guns without a problem. It's not an option for me because of my smaller frame, which is why the m&p9c is perfect for what I need. But to each his own.

And yes, I do believe S&W makes both a MA compliant 45 and 45C
Thanks, great to hear. I didn't mean to inadvertently disparage your choice of CCW. I was just talking about my own psychology. I'm sure the compact and Shield M&Ps are terrific firearms and perfect for some, as it seems to be for you. It might even turn out that when I gain more experience I might prefer a compact handgun. Thanks again.

Also thanks to icemn and M29.

Last edited by Jeff1000; 08-22-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:34 AM
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Thanks, great to hear. I didn't mean to inadvertently disparage your choice of CCW. I was just talking about my own psychology.
No offense take whatsoever. I know what you meant.

And Ice was correct, there is currently no MA compliant 45C
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:49 AM
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Can you see who has a class A license and see what their applications contained?

I would think maybe if you carried large sums of cash with you at all hours of the day and night, perhaps you operate a vending service and collect the coins and transport them to the bank. Perhaps you often receive cash payments from selling food at ball games and make daily deposits. Perhaps you need to go in the dark alleys to take meals to the needy. Perhaps you sell expensive jewelry at swap meets and could be a target.

Chances are whatever need you come up with will not be investigated too far. I'd come up with a realistic need though.

Just don't tell the chief you carry large sums of cash resulting from your drug sales in seedy neighborhoods...
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:24 PM
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Can you see who has a class A license and see what their applications contained?

I would think maybe if you carried large sums of cash with you at all hours of the day and night, perhaps you operate a vending service and collect the coins and transport them to the bank. Perhaps you often receive cash payments from selling food at ball games and make daily deposits. Perhaps you need to go in the dark alleys to take meals to the needy. Perhaps you sell expensive jewelry at swap meets and could be a target.

Chances are whatever need you come up with will not be investigated too far. I'd come up with a realistic need though.

Just don't tell the chief you carry large sums of cash resulting from your drug sales in seedy neighborhoods...
Lost Lake, Thanks for the reply.

I deeply resent the entire idea that I have to come up with a reason why I want to exercise my right as an American citizen. The proof that I'm law abiding should be the extent of it (clean record).

This is literally a nanny state situation where I have to ask my daddy (Chief Gemme) if it's okay if I buy a gun. Please daddy, please!

My reason for wanting a license is nobody's business, including Chief Gemme. I'm not going to grovel, beg, or make up stories to please my daddy. "For all lawful purposes." Whatever the chief decides is his problem. I will exercise my second amendment rights whatever the chief dictates. It would just make it a heck of a lot easier if I could legally purchase a handgun.

These nanny statists certainly don't give a damn about my safety or my rights. Rant off.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:34 PM
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These nanny statists certainly don't give a damn about my safety or my rights. Rant off.
You are just a number - hopefully, a productive little worker bee. If you die, there will be another worker bee along soon enough to take your place, and another one to take his. The big people understand this because it is a principle that they believe applies to us - not to them. The little people (like you and me) would prefer to at least have a chance to keep buzzing around the hive a little bit longer.

"Rights" are a joke to them. They have been abusing rights with impunity for so long they are sure it will never end. When there are never any consequences for your wickedness and criminality, there are no worries!
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by M29since14 View Post
You are just a number - hopefully, a productive little worker bee. If you die, there will be another worker bee along soon enough to take your place, and another one to take his. The big people understand this because it is a principle that they believe applies to us - not to them. The little people (like you and me) would prefer to at least have a chance to keep buzzing around the hive a little bit longer.

"Rights" are a joke to them. They have been abusing rights with impunity for so long they are sure it will never end. When there are never any consequences for your wickedness and criminality, there are no worries!
You had to remind me huh? lol

When the utopian statists get their high speed rail built then we'll really be buzzing around like bees. Drones.

Best Regards.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:16 PM
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I'm not real old yet, but I do know that oftentimes it is much easier and more productive to play the game and get what you need, than to stand your ground, fight on the basis you are right, and prove your point.

Idiots have an endless supply of patience to wear you down.....
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:36 PM
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You are just a number - hopefully, a productive little worker bee. If you die, there will be another worker bee along soon enough to take your place, and another one to take his. The big people understand this because it is a principle that they believe applies to us - not to them. The little people (like you and me) would prefer to at least have a chance to keep buzzing around the hive a little bit longer.

"Rights" are a joke to them. They have been abusing rights with impunity for so long they are sure it will never end. When there are never any consequences for your wickedness and criminality, there are no worries!
I don't know, there are more who think like you than you think...
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:40 PM
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I'm not real old yet, but I do know that oftentimes it is much easier and more productive to play the game and get what you need, than to stand your ground, fight on the basis you are right, and prove your point.

Idiots have an endless supply of patience to wear you down.....
I agree with you on the most part Sir. I just mean that I'm not going to jump through hoops or grovel, or make up stories to appease the chief. I'll fill out all the forms, submit the necessary paperwork, and let the chips fall where they may. I will be respectful as long as the chief is respectful towards me.

My main point is that whatever the outcome I'll still get what I need. I am, afterall, going through the process that the state considers to be legimate. If I was the criminal type I wouldn't even bother.

Anyway, sometimes this stuff just gets to me and I rant. That's what happened. Like a lot of Americans, the most important thing to me is my freedom.

Best Regards.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:42 PM
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I don't know, there are more who think like you than you think...
I really hope so for my own sake LOL. Seriously, it's very soothing to hear that. Thanks.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:20 AM
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The M&P 45 FS and 45c are both on the current approved Roster. See here (pg 10)
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/...ter-4-2012.pdf

I've owned the M&P 45 FS for a number of years now (bought it as soon as it hit the Roster) and it is a great gun once you get a trigger job (5#) done on it!

However, the Roster is IRRELEVANT to the buyer . . . if a FFL is willing to sell you something off the roster, just buy it and don't tell anyone where you got it. The Roster restricts what handguns a FFL can transfer to a MA resident, NOT what a MA resident can own/buy. [All penalties fall on Dealer not owner.]

MA chiefs are immune from liability for their actions or inactions and they behave accordingly! They are allowed by MGL full "discretion" to issue or not and restrict or not under "suitability" (both "" terms are spelled out in MGLs).

MA EOPS Official Position is that neither Heller or MacDonald apply to MA and therefore it is "business as usual". [I am not kidding, this is a true statement.] Therefore, the 2nd Amendment is null and void in MA until such time as a USSC actually rules against MA directly!

In a proper holster with a GUN BELT (no other type of belt), CCW'g a FS 45 shouldn't be a big deal. I carried a FS 1911 for a few years, Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 or Brommeland pancake holster. The Milt Sparks VMII is an awesome holster, I bought one for my M&P 45 since I carry another gun in the same type holster and love it. You will wait and it's not cheap but worth it.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:30 AM
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I'm about as liberal as they come, but this is plain wrong. Every state should be a SHALL ISSUE state. It's ridiculous that all you have to do is live in the wrong state to not be able to get CCP. Perhaps it really should be a federal license, but then it would get bogged down in red tape and bs. I love Massachusetts, but right now I'm glad I live in North Carolina!
You ought to gather a group of applicants and bring a class action lawsuit against the state!
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:21 AM
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The M&P 45 FS and 45c are both on the current approved Roster. See here (pg 10)
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/...ter-4-2012.pdf

I've owned the M&P 45 FS for a number of years now (bought it as soon as it hit the Roster) and it is a great gun once you get a trigger job (5#) done on it!

However, the Roster is IRRELEVANT to the buyer . . . if a FFL is willing to sell you something off the roster, just buy it and don't tell anyone where you got it. The Roster restricts what handguns a FFL can transfer to a MA resident, NOT what a MA resident can own/buy. [All penalties fall on Dealer not owner.]

MA chiefs are immune from liability for their actions or inactions and they behave accordingly! They are allowed by MGL full "discretion" to issue or not and restrict or not under "suitability" (both "" terms are spelled out in MGLs).

MA EOPS Official Position is that neither Heller or MacDonald apply to MA and therefore it is "business as usual". [I am not kidding, this is a true statement.] Therefore, the 2nd Amendment is null and void in MA until such time as a USSC actually rules against MA directly!

In a proper holster with a GUN BELT (no other type of belt), CCW'g a FS 45 shouldn't be a big deal. I carried a FS 1911 for a few years, Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 or Brommeland pancake holster. The Milt Sparks VMII is an awesome holster, I bought one for my M&P 45 since I carry another gun in the same type holster and love it. You will wait and it's not cheap but worth it.
Thanks Len, great information, I appreciate it.

I noticed that Pullman Arms in Worcester, MA had M&P45s listed but they were sold out. I guess lots of shooters are thinking like me (and you for that matter).

Your post was so thorough the only follow-up question I have is what's the difference between a "gun belt" and a regular leather belt. I looked at some pictures and they appear like regular belts, to me anyway.

Thanks again!
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:24 AM
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I'm about as liberal as they come, but this is plain wrong. Every state should be a SHALL ISSUE state. It's ridiculous that all you have to do is live in the wrong state to not be able to get CCP. Perhaps it really should be a federal license, but then it would get bogged down in red tape and bs. I love Massachusetts, but right now I'm glad I live in North Carolina!
You ought to gather a group of applicants and bring a class action lawsuit against the state!
You're right spirit!
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