There is so much back and forth with these guy it's hard to tell who's full of it and who isn't. I think they all are to some degree.

I've read many articles by Fackler, Dodson, Sanow, Marshall, and others. Nobody agrees on anything! But their all experts!!

That's why I like Clint Smith. He seems smart enough to stay out of such nonsense.

Ahhh Grasshopper, you very wise in your conclusion . Have a good night buddy.

What was the original question again? I forget ...

Let us look seriously at the word 'expert' shall we? Let's break it down to it's basic structure.
"E X P E R T"
'Ex', suffix. Meaning ' no longer', 'former', 'used to be'. As in 'Stupid Ex-husband' , 'Psycho Ex-wife/girlfriend' or '(insert word) Ex-boss'.
'Pert' or 'spert'. A small amount of liquid launched at speed by use of pressure through a small opening.
EXPERT= Has been drip under pressure of his own self importance.
Does that make me an expert? No. I'm not a 'has been'. More of a 'never was'.

__________________
Field Researcher. IGC

Personally, I like the big slow lead bullets, the 44 special. Everyday I appendix carry the 29-2, with 6 inch barrel, in a Dale Fricke holster. My night defense is the FNP 45 Tactical,15 round. Does this work for anyone else? Probably not. Carry what works for you - just practice.
Be Safe!

I would like to ask one question. Have you asked yourself what gun you really would like to have in a gunfight? Maybe the extra few ounces would not feel so heavy if you ever were in a situation where your gun was what kept you and your loved ones from being killed or worse. I carry a 1911 45 ACP lightwt. commander. It feels light as a feather to me.

I'm 79, 0verweight, flabby, asthmatic, with bad knees. I can do the 100 yd waddle in about 5 minutes. Run is not an option. I practice a lot with a range of my handguns. Right now I'm trying to master a news-to-me Colt combat commander. I've put about 300 rounds down it, and think I can begin to handle high recoil ammo (Federal 230 gr HP) in an emergency.

Just hold up a 38 next to a 44 spl or 45acp. Its pretty easy and keith44spl is right. This thread needs PICTURES.

These threads are always fun...just dont step in the bull****

I also knew this was the reason behind the belief. The article is a opinion only, it presents no facts that the reason for conviction was solely due to the use of handloads. It makes it seem that way, but it does not give the whole story nor all the facts. As I mentioned, name a case or file number which proves the person was found guilty based entirely on the use of handloads?, there is none. All that M.A. says is not fact it is his opinion. He has chimed in here a few times. He is a expert witness but his articles are not proof of anything. Another of his articles in one of the Gun Mags had several errors.

But this is all OT anyway. The choice of caliber and or what ammo is up to the individual.

"May the odds be forever in your favor"

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Still Running Against the Wind

When I testify in court as to ballistic evidence and matters of such...It is my opinion, only,
of my experiences and findings.

Don't go around toot my own horn 'bout it neither.


Now, back to the OP, when I was jest a nubbin and the old fellers my Dad

ran with seemed to favor the .44 Spl. , .45 ACp and the Long Colt

cartridges for a purty good reason...It had saved their bacon sometime or

another in some fight where ya win or lose for real.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Damn! This subject gets folks all het up. Do not know what your experience level is but I defy anyone to challenge the following:
1. The best gun is the one you have when you need it.
2. The best gun is the one you can hit with-reliably.
3. When you are talking about caliber, there are just 2 things that have been proven over and over again through out the history of firearms:
Bullet placement is king, bullet penetration is queen, anything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.
The 2 calibers that have killed more folks than any others are:
1. The 9mm, in full metal jacket configurations-of course this is due to its use in so many wars.
2. The .25 ACP, FMJ, again due to its large use by civilans good and bad.

Your choices are not limited to .38, .44 and .45. Your choice should be dictated by what you will be carrying almost all the time, and your ability and willingness to train with the weapon/caliber combination.
If you choose a 22LR and train so that you can place your shots under pressure, a handfull of those rounds in approximatly the right place will ruin anyone's day.
I am actually considering the Kel-tec PMR, lighweight, 30 rounds of really high speed 40 gr HP 22 Magnum rounds should be offputting to most hostiles. I have a couple of hundred rounds through it now, and I kind of like to see all those holes in the target in a couple of seconds.

For your personal protection, unless you are a web type gun guru, is going to be something you will carry. This lets out the larger calibers except for exoctic revolvers like the S&W 296, or 325. Or the mini 45 autos all of which are expensive and difficult to master for a novice.
Even the tiny 5 shot single action 22 mags are remarkably effective, if you put at least one of them between the BGs eyes.

So you need to decide your level of personal committment and your ability to pay to make that committment work for you. DO NOT listen to the gabble of the caliber kings and princes, make your own choice, and stick to it. Maybe after you can slam 10 22 LRs into 3 inches at 5-10 feet under stress you may want to up your caliber committment-but why? Someone who can do that scares the **** out of me, and I have been carying weapons professionally for a half century now.

Reading the post above, it makes some good points. However, there are a couple of flaws in part of the logic.

Lethality is one sense, is not relevant. Who cares if the guy dies two hours after he's killed you or a family member? What matters is incapacitation, and it that, caliber does play a role. No credible person is going to advocate carrying a .25 or FMJ round for SD.

There are a lot of people on here who carry N frames, commander sized 1911's etc regularly and that's not unusual, for gun people, web guru's excluded. So to say no one carries them except in exotic varieties fails the smell test.

Any service caliber with modern HP's will do the job, pick the one you shoot the best.

Yup, yur right, right thar!!!

Ya got to be able to hit sumthin' to make a difference....

Practice & practice sum more I always say....

I can't tell much differance in accuracy of any of the cartridges in this discussion...

But, I do favor the larger offerings as better fight stoppers, especially when it's my hide on the line.







I can kinda shoot a lit'l bit....With either hand or both at the same time, if need be.

Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

As has been stated several times, shot placement is what is most important. I have carried a 1911 and a J frame and K frame 357 loaded with a +p self defense round. The 3" j frame is easier to carry then my full sized 1911. But I practice with all 3. Carry what you shot the best , continue to train with what you shoot best and continue to buy what you think is your next best carry weapon cause they are all fun to shoot. This is one question that will not go away; it will return in a month or so.

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Carpriver.

Oh Goody Pictures

I just chronographed the 45 ACP and the 327 Federal Mag but can not find my data on the 38 spl +P

Anyway, the factory 45 +P 185 gr is going 980 fps avg. ( I duplicated the load also with Power Pistol) The new SA XDs 45. Over 200 rounds and has not missed a beat. FMJ. HP, Lead, Limp wristed, gansta style, sideways, upside down Nice gun.

The 115 Gold Dot 327 Federal (6 shot) is smoking along at 1300 fps.

These are from short barreled guns.

The Buffalo Bore (or equivalent) FBI load of 158 gr LSWCHP out of a Alloy gun is just plain brutal to shoot. I'll take the 6 shots of the 327 Federal out of the steel gun any day.. Might as well shoot 357 Mags out of a J frame.

So, whatever works.

"I don't always shoot playing cards, but when I do (i use real ones) and I turn them sideways."

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Still Running Against the Wind

Now Rule,

You know I can't see 'em turned on edge....Jest barely can see 'em flat!

Face cards is 'bout all I can make out now-n-days...Jacks er better to open, ya know.

Shot this'n jest for this thread & you ol pard, whilest I was workin on sumone's new rig.


Six in a hurry....At twenty feet with a 3" Colt Defender, .45 ACP



Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Remind me not to challenge Dave to a duel anytime soon.............

Or play cards, he marks the damn deck!

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Implied, but not stated, is the reliance on a one-shot stopper. None of the pistol calibers are definitive on that criteria alone. However, throw multiple hits into the situation and the equation changes considerably.

I can consistantly put 5 rounds of .38 Special into the target area in less time than I can put 3 .45s.

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You are what you learn.

Or a card game!

I realize this thread is dated, I got linked over here doing some research through Google search and when I read that quote above I was laughing my a-- off and needed to make a comment.

I have a soft spot for the .45 pistol caliber and in fact presently carry a G39 .45 G.A.P. (just shorter than the a.c.p. round)
However I'm going back to a .38 special J-Frame. And not because it's easier to carry, I simply no longer trust semi-automatics I have yet to get through any range session without multiple malfunctions and my last time out I had one that was catastrophic, meaning I could not clear it with a simple re-rack.

I started out on a revolver and got sucked into the capacity and of course the .45 jive. And the truth also is it's really no fun shooting my .45. I've come to the same opinion as many have and that is shoot the biggest caliber you can comfortably and hopefully proficiently. But the truth is unless you can go every week and do at least 50 rounds you will never get that proficient.

I got me a 642 Davidson performance center on layaway and once I pay it off the G39 is history. Some 150 grain Underwood wad cutters or some Hornady 110 critical defense or Federal Personal Defense Low Recoil 110 Grain Hydra-Shok and I'm good to go. Two speed strips on one side and the 642 ridding shotgun on the other side. Draw and point under 2.5 seconds.


.38 special serving America faithfully since 1898.
Life is good..

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Mulebuk Sam and the Governor

There may not have been any actual court decisions (or even arguments), but that don't mean there won't be.

Use the biggest you can carry and use accurately. I use a G27 with a 357 Sig barrel because I get better accuracy than I did with the 40 S & W barrel (1" vs 2-3" @ 7 yards, 3" rapid fire)

Purely in terms of the cartridge itself, I consider the .44 Special and .45acp interchangeable. It's the firearm that makes the difference. You're going to have AT MOST six shots from any .44 Special firearm you're likely to carry, whereas that's usually the MINIMUM (apart from certain revolvers) for the .45acp. In a five or six shot revolver, flip a coin. After that, it's between a revolver and a semi-auto for the .45.

On a pure cartridge level, I prefer the .38 Special to the 9x19mm, since you can throw a heavier bullet faster with lower pressures than you can with the 9x19mm. On the other hand, you're not going to see a 15 shot .38 Special revolver any time soon. I'm currently carrying a Glock 19 while I fiddle around with a holster for my new .45. While I prefer the 158gr. LSWC-HP "FBI" load, nobody not on fire is going to thank me for getting two 147gr. JHPs to the body and one to the head.

Ultimately, it's going to come down to YOUR assessment of the threat. If you live in rural Nebraska and reasonably believe that the biggest threat you're going to run into is a rabid dog, a Smith 36 may well be the best choice for you.

On the other hand, if you live in Cleveland, and you figure that there's an 80% chance of riots, and a 50% chance of a terrorist attack this summer, you may switch from that 36 to a 3 1/2" M1911, the way I did.

I am no x-purt and have never been an officer. My take on going armed is, how dedicated are you to the concept. A small .380 or a snub may be all you are willing to carry. I personally think any gun beats a pocket knife or a stone picked up off the ground. If you are willing to carry a .44mag with the attendant dress and concealment issues, more power to you. Where you live has a lot to do with what you can conceal. If you carry that is a good thing as everyone is safer for it. I own a lot of handguns and don't judge anyone for their choice of model or caliber. My mom would have been disappointed in a display of arms in public but would have felt better knowing one was discreetly armed.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Nobody really wants to get shot. I once saved myself from a thorough butt-whomping by sticking my trusty bug-to-my-bug .25 colt in the guy's ear. I've told the story here years ago.

I have .38 'j' frame and think that they can 'barely' get into the really effective range of velocity and penetration. .38s have stopped a lot of people, but you don't hear about all the people that they wound and don't stop, especially with snubs.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

As far as " wounded but not stopped " ? We can say that for all calibers , pistol to rifle . As has been said many times it's all about shot placement .
There's a lot of bad guys taking a dirt nap because of the 38 special . I have read that the NYC used it from 1927-1997 . There are still law enforcement in distant lands using it .
Is it the best ? No , but none of the calibers mentioned receives that distinction . The stories go on and on in favor of one caliber or the other . It really comes down to the individual and what he shoots or has in the past shot the best .
Find out what works the best for you , then practice, practice . I don't just mean going to the range and go " bang----bang-----bang " . Try different calibers in some tactical training . I have done so with 45acp , 40s&w , 357 mag and 44 mag ( full factory loads ) . The 44mag was the most challenging but also the most rewarding , for me . Best of Luck

I guess I will bring some life back to this old thread.
I have carried an LCR for the last couple years and it is loaded with 38+P. I never was all that great at shooting it consistently. I decided against the 357 mag for carry because it was quite the handful along with the over penetration of the round.

Recently I have seen a few threads on the 44 caliber and how so many really like the round. Then I saw a thread about the Charter Bulldog being a well built, dependable and accurate gun. I always thought any caliber in a revolver that started with a 4 would be a hand cannon which I didn't want any part of. The 357 was a bit more than I enjoyed shooting let alone what 44 might be like. But many said the 44 special had less recoil than a 357.
So I bit the bullet, sorry for the pun, and bought a new Charter Bulldog for under $400 otd. My first shooting was 240 gr Remington Target rounds. I was really surprised the recoil wasn't bad and not near like shooting 357 in a 20 oz. S&W 640-1 revolver.

I am loving this Bulldog 44 spl shooting 165 gr Hornedy and my own handloads. I am can shoot this gun with much more accuracy than the LCR and probably the 640-1.

Reading the caliber comparisons between the 38spl, +P and the 44 spl I like how the 44 spl performs.

This Charter Bulldog is now my main carry. I shot close to 200 in one range outing and no discomfort at all and this little dog is accurate if I do my part. It works out well for CC and is only 3 oz. heavier than my LCR.

Yep I am really liking my new best friend with a 44 collar.

Guns do not kill people. People kill people. Use the gun you are best with, or have at hand.

Is a baseball bat or a machete better when dealing with zombies?

I prefer the 44 special for its versatility over the 38 Special. I'm driving everyday so I trust the 44 hard cast wadcutter over the 38 hardcast wadcutter for barrier penetration.

Beyond that I like the 165 grain lighter 44 specials which I figure should be easier and more accurate beyond 12 feet.

Cost and practicing is a problem however since I don't handload. My solution is use my Smith 638 and 38 special as a trainer and I will probably be getting some sort of Smith J frame in 22LR as well.

I find with my slightly heavier fabric deep pocket summer shorts I can even carry my classic 3-inch Charter bulldog in pocket although I might want to switch out for the small Magna grips and a Tyler T.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

After paying $48 for my first box of fifty 44 spl target ammo I went and bought the dies and reload my own. Much cheaper. less than a 1/3, than store bought for sure.