How about some opinions on using a derringer as a CCW. Either the classic style or one of the modern designs. Something about .38 cal.
I realize only 2 shots, but how do they compare in dependability with a revolver, or subcompact 9MM semi auto.
Thanks!
Steve W

A friend just bought one, in .22, and made himself a pocket holster for it. It's an interesting little piece but he's also got a .38 snubnose that
would do everything, except being concealable, better than the two-shooter.

Another friend told me he's got a collection of derringers, started in the
days when he didn't have a lot of money to buy guns with.
I have never seen one of his, or seen him shoot one. He said most of his shot to different points from each barrel.

I think they make better collectables than using guns.
Have always liked the look of the old High Standard .22 caliber derringers but have never managed to convince myself to buy one.

I have a nickel Davis derringer in .38 Special that I use more for my Cowboy Mounted Shooting costume than for actual shooting. The trigger is way too stiff for any kind of accurate shooting. It's literally a belly gun; you have to be close enough to stick it in the other guy's belly to guarantee a hit!

7 yard target with two rounds of Hornady Defense Loads and two rounds of Winchester HPs. Both ammo shoots to the same points. Lower barrel is dead on upper barrel is 3" low.



I have been using various High Standard Derringers for over 40 years. I carried a .22LR model as a back up on the job and got my first .22 magnum High Standard Derringer about 10 years ago. They are not the best choice for carry but they do have two separate rounds, two separate barrels and two separate firing pins. A blocked barrel, dud round or loss of one firing pin will not leave you unprotected.

I have recently acquired the .38 special BTJ derringer. It is about the same overall size as the High Standard derringer but heavier and a little thicker. I do like the ability to use the wide range of .38 special ammo that is available.

Mark

I would NOT carry a two shot anything as my primary CCW. Having said that I'll relate a personal experience.Without all the filler, the story is, I was shot down and captured by soldiers of the NVA.I had previously carried a privately owned Python through two tours in the "Pearl of The Orient". Knowing the Army was getting tough on privately owned weapons[POW]I chose not to risk the confiscation of my gun the third time around,I started looking for alternatives. I had about settled on a J frame lightweight until I gave a thought to my High Standard .22 Mag Derringer.Testing on blocks of laundry soap and wet phone books showed me that the .22 Mag Winchester 40 gr. jacketed HP was as good or better than the .38 Spl. To put a point on it , I smuggled the High Standard into country. When captured by two stalwarts of the NVA, they took all 3 of my knives , my .45 pistol, my wallet[Geneva Convention card] my cigarettes,lighter and my boots.What they didn't find was the High Standard hidden away inside my flight jacket. After several hours of walking the wrong way[for me!] they took a break on the trail. One went into the woods to answer the call of nature, the other was eating a rice ball. Since he wasn't going to share any food with me,I mimed that I wanted a smoke. He gave me my cigarettes and lighter. When I put them in my pocket he looked askance at me. The last thing he saw was a.22 Mag in the eye.His partner came running out of the woods with his AK in his left hand and his britches in his right. My next shot hit him in the collar bone and disabled him 'til I could get the first ones AK.Two observations,first their mother raised stupid children, second, the .22 Mag,when well placed IS DEADLY.Again, I wouldn't want one for a primary carry gun but as a deep concealment back up I trusted my life to it and it did not fail me.I still have the High Standard but if I need deep back up these days I carry a NAA .22 Mag revolver.I hope I haven't bored anyone with this recollection. Nick

If i were Adam or Eve...maybe.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I had one of those a few years back, I carried it a couple of times, but decided I did not want have to get within knife range to use it.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

It's better than a rock...........

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

The Bond Arms derringers are quality pieces, and probably the only brand I would want to own...but they cost about as much as a small revolver and they are HEAVY! They are, IMO, a niche gun for almost all average gun owners, and could be a fun piece...but I don't see them as a serious CCW gun.

Unless you really like them they don't make sense w/the selection of modern handguns in .32, .380 & .38.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Nick

Thanks for the read on being captured. Although I've never had to use a 22 mag for defense, bill Jordan also wrote he thought the 22 mag was a damn deadly caliber. Your story seemed to prove the point.

Glad you're with us today to have you share your story.

Les

I have a Davis .32 mag. and an American Derringer .41 mag. They are both fun to shoot, in a painful sort of way, but I wouldn't consider either of them for CC. Unlike the High Standards, and their clones, they are single action and cocking their hammers and working their safties are not a good set up, unless you are shooting someone under the table or in the back.

I agree with GKC. I shot a Bond Arms 357. It was too heavy. The quality was nice though. It shot both barrels to point of aim.

I despise them and think they are worthless for self defense. But that's just me. Too many better options exist to simply settle for one.

I had a Davis 38 and it hurt to shoot. Accuracy was amazingly inaccurate and the gun broke after only 20 rounds.

Saw a guy shoot himself through the palm of his left hand with a NAA mini 22 mag because he was trying to get used to drawing and shooting the little gun fast.

Also saw a guy buy one for his wife and immediately took it out to the range. The gun was so little and awkward for her that she was dangerous with it. And she couldn't hit the target which was five yards away!

No thanks.

Not to deviate from the thread, but that is an amazing story. Someone should put together a good collection of Vietnam Veterans Memoirs before they start leaving us in large number too

Thanks to all for the replies, I'll stick with my S&W 642.
To Smokey04 thanks for your service and the facinating post!
Steve W

Smokey04,

Bored anyone!!?? That was the best "It happend to me" story I have ever heard! I'm glad for your sake you chose the derringer over the .38 and the NVA didn't find your High Standard as they almost certainly would have found the SW.

I read one other High Standard story years ago where a man was in a barber shop when two thugs burst in and began to rob the customers and barber. The HS man managed to shoot both robbers in the head, one died instantly and the other was left seriously injured and out of the fight.

God bless. Thanks for your service. Great survival story, and welcome home!

Gray_Rider

I have a Davis .22 Mag derringer. It has a heavy trigger and is hard to cock the hammer back quickly, but has about the same pattern as the HS pictures above. I found that beyond the three yard limit the .22 mag bullets start to tumble. The fireball and report is quite substantial too!

I rarely carry it as a CCW, but it is a fun little gun to shoot just the same. Usually I carry it as a 3rd gun to my KelTec P32, SW 642, Glock 26/30.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!

I have had a couple HS in 22Mag. I'd love to have another.
The weight of the HS is almost the same as a j-frame, and
would pull down any piece of clothing I carried it in.
They're great to Have, not to carry. P32 or NAA Mini-Mag
are better, and easier to conceal. JMHO...
TACC1

Nick, no, you did not bore me. I thank you for your service. Yiogo

I like my 2 shot Bond Arms derringer.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I briefly owned a 45 Colt/410 Bond Arms Derringer. I must confess I was pretty disappointed with it. The 45 colt was fine, but inaccurate (I wasn't expecting much, but I think due to the very short amount of rifling due to the 410 shell space, no spin was imparted on the bullets). They flew pretty far afield as to my point of aim.

The 410 was the surprise. I fired buckshot rounds from it and what I would call a duplex load (had three lead discs with some #4 shot as well... I think, don't hold me too that). The buckshot and the discs bounced off my pine target stand. I didn't expect that. Were I to do it again, I'd get something in 9mm/.38.

Don't under estimate the power of a NAA 22 Magnum. When I take my dog out for a walk in the mornings and sometimes late at night I usually drop a NAA 22 Magnum Pug in my front pocket in a holster. I carry it with Hornady Critical Defense 45 grain FTX .22 Mag. ammunition in it. The picture I have attached is the first time out with it at the range. All rounds were fired at 7 yards, and at that distance there was some keyholing of the rounds. But you can see after my first few rounds it can be very accurate once I got a feel for it. Closer up it's spot on. I feel very confident carrying it for my short trips around my neighborhood. Other then that my 640 Pro goes with me when I venture out into the real world.

Attached Images

Pug shooting 004.jpg (84.5 KB, 72 views)

Not long ago a guy at the range had a .22 Magnum derringer that he was actively using for concealed carry. I asked to see it and he offered to let me shoot it. Neither one of us could get it to go bang with the ammo he was carrying. He was absolutely horrified and my distrust of derringers was reinforced. If you're gonna use one, make sure it functions properly and will fire the ammo that you're carrying in it.

Dave Sinko

I have or had all of the calibers of American Derringer, 38,357,44 mad, 45 acp,45 colt, they shot extremely well and with improved triggers are very accurate. The most accurate are the Buffalo Arms derringers 357 mag, made in the late 1980, by a LEO. They are legitimate 7 yd head shot guns. Davis , now Cobra, make reasonably accurate derringers which can have their trigger pull improved by the company. I have the cobras in 38,380,9mm, 22 mag and also have a pair of High Standard 22 mag, top barrel is dead on, bottom is 3-4" low. I have never had one fail, ( do not DRY fire, it will damage them, bearing falls out, safety would not work till replaced.) As for CC I would prefer an AA12 or a slicked up Saiga- 12 with 00 buck, that said I have many custom holsters and I put them all over for fun!! I would if all I was wearing was a bathing suit, but I prefer to go only down to a 638 or two for walking to the mailbox. I want to try a NAA 22 mag rev since I really like Hornady's Critical defense load in 22 mag. They do require practice just as a 500 SW does. New shooter-NO! Some one who carries most every day for 37 yrs OK. I have found that when you can not change clothes ( OR Scrubs) a 638 can make your pants fall down. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Derringers have an old west appeal, but if you want a really small hide-out gun it seems to me something like a Kel-tec p32 would be better.

Less than 10 oz with 7+1 shots of 32 acp would beat a two shot derringer IMHO.

Another Zombie Thread.
Thanks for resurrecting it, as I missed Smokey04's story when the thread was new.

As others have written, derringers make a good backup. I have both a Cobra 9mm O/U derringer and an NAA MiniMag and both shoot extremely well (as short barreled as they are).

I did consider the Bond Arms 45LC/.410, but when you have so many lightweight 9mms out there now-a-days, why settle for a heavy 2-shot option as a primary?

+1 on the thanks for the thread resurrection: I'd also missed Smokey04's story. Wow!

My experience is that my Bond Derringer is utterly reliable (centerfires with fixed barrels are funny that way ), both with its original .45 Colt (only - none of this shotshell nonsense) and its .45 ACP barrel sets.



Size is pretty small, tho the thing is decently heavy. It's great IWB or in the pocket with a Remora.



I presently have thinner rubber stocks on the derringer, and like them better for carry.





A couple of barrel inserts (bought a single set of six with two other derringer owners - came out to under $20 for each of us) allow the use of .22 LR for practice (which is pretty helpful, actually - these guns do require some practice with regard to drawing and cocking them).



I've only fired the .45 Colt barrels with handloaded .45 Colt and .45 Cowboy rounds (see below) and gotten decent results with higher pressured stuff, but I've found .45 ACP handloads and factory loads are decently speedy out of the 3" tubes.

For instance:
Hornady 200-gr +P TAP - 895.6 fps
Winchester Ranger Talon 230-gr +P 853.5 fps

That should leave a mark.

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Now go make God proud...

I have a COP derringer(4 shot) that's new in the box in 357 Magnum. IMO: It's far too bulky to actually carry.
Jim

I also just saw this thread and glad as heck that SMOKEY made it back to tell the tail.

It worked out well for him due to the dumbness of the enemy in not finding that little gun. With that said the only two shot weapon I would want to trust my life to would have barrels measured by gauge not caliber (Remember the 4.10 is a bore size) This is a case where bigger barrels are better than small barrels.

We had an incident here a couple years back when a legally licensed derringer was dropped and it went BANG in a public space and put the anti gun crowd into indignant overdrive.

IMHO guns that are just a little bigger, carry more shots, hopefully much safer and in most cases are much more accurate are far better to carry.
Hey whatever floats your boat, it’s your decision, and for me I want bigger oars on my boat!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I carried a HS .22 mag as my "Onion Field" gun. I still occasionally drop it in my pocket for mowing the lawn. As smokey04 demonstrated it is an appropriate last ditch weapon. When I bought mine the only option that was in the same size category was a .25 or .22LR pocket auto. The Buffalo .357 was just out, but not as likely to survive a good frisking. The COP was a brick. As so many others have noted, there are better options today as a hideout and MUCH better as a primary.

If the Onion Field reference is obscure to you, get a copy of Joe Wambaugh's book of the same name. Unlike most of his stuff, it is non-fiction.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Regarding the first part of the post I quote, I'm aware of two accidental shootings with dropped NAA mini-revolvers. When I considered these together how frequently I'd find my NAAs to have somehow moved their hammer off the between-the-chambers notch even while riding in pocket holsters, I traded my pair off.

Regarding the second part, "Amen, brother!" I have my Bond Arms derringer, but it's really unusual for me to carry it for precisely the reasons you mention.

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Now go make God proud...

I did the same, back in the day. I hadn't heard of any real world experience with the effectiveness of the .22 mag out of the little HS, but Smokey's experience confirms my suspicions. It was comforting to have that little piece hidden on those long, lonely nights.

Many years ago, I tried a derringer as a backup gun. I do not recall the brand, but do not think it was a known piece of junk. On my first shot it misfired. Upon recocking the gun both barrels went off. It was a 38 special and both going off was fairly unpleasant. I returned the gun to its owner, thanked him for the opportunity and have never handled a derringer again.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

I love resurrected threads!!!! Good job Professor Frink!

WELCOME BACK SMOKEY04/Nick! Glad your time at the Southeast Asia Tea Party was successful. Your choice of weapons proved dramatically correct and I'm proud to have read your story! Well done!

The High Standard "over-under" .22 magnum derringer is an iconic weapon, for the most part completely different from any other derringer ever made, and the only gun that I am aware of that when properly holstered becomes an NFA Class III item. Well, actually, it's the holster that the NFA "aow" aka "any other weapon", $5.00 taxed (and thus, arguably, it is registered, I guess) weapon. The gun itself becomes a "concealed gadget device" when placed into the Galco wallet holster.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...WwaAY6EX-iy998

I'll give you some references from Google - some lead to discussions on this Forum and some to other discussion boards, ATF notes, etc.:

https://www.google.com/search?site=&....0.k-0vUhl0d-8

Other "wallet holster" that reveal grips, or reveal slides on small pistols, do not fall within the purview of the ATF restriction. If the gun is totally invisible, for all intents and purposes, as it is when fully enclosed in that Galco holster, it needs the $5.00 tax to be paid. If you're interested then skim through the pictures that are in the page with the holster I pictured above and you'll see a wallet rig on a Beretta Jetfire or 950BS single action pistol that comes pretty doggone close to making that gun invisible but, even then, the hammer does show. So I'd be uncertain about that one.

So the little High Standard .22 Magnum goes from a cute little hideout gun (great choice, again, Nick!!!) that is very hard to notice to a gun that is still hard to notice (though not quite as disappearing as it was for an unholstered one carried by Nick in his jacket) to a quarter of a million dollar felony if you're caught with one in a Galco wallet holster. I'd call that iconic!

I agree with Nick, it's not my first choice for a concealed carry gun, not when I can tote a 642 around all day in a pocket holster; however, on the other hand, I have two such derringers, and I have carried one of my High Standard .22 WMR derringers in a Galco wallet holster in the pocket of my bath robe for a very long time - so when I'm bopping around the house in skivvies and a robe I still have a gun available quickly - only no felony, guys, I paid the 5 bucks and I do have the NFA tax stamp!

I also have a very old Remington .41 rimfire derringer, nickel plated, gorgeous little devil, that I have never fired and possibly never will. I have fired Davis derringers, American and Bond derringers, all at cowboy action matches, and NAA teeny tiny derringers (I have the tiniest;. 22 Short only!), and for a host of reasons I would never carry one as my concealed carry handgun. They're bulky and shaped funny, unless you have them worked on they're very hard to cock, recoil with any good SD caliber is silly, and getting the second shot off after that first one is problematic at best - except at cowboy action matches with tricked out guns and light loads and then we all suddenly look like speed shooters. Bond suggests a .45 caliber derringer with .410 shotshells is a great snake gun - I prefer to avoid the snake but I'll settle for any revolver over the derringer. YMMV.


***GRJ***

The Bond Arms stackbarrel derringers are really wonderfully made. I managed a gun store for two years between college and law school, and I can tell you that Bond Arms is the exception to the rule in that regard - your experience sounds closer to the norm.

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Now go make God proud...

I agree with that statement completely. My dislike of them for SD purposes has nothing to do with their quality. They really are excellent.

***GRJ***

I notice plenty of HS derringers offered for sale on Gun Broker. They have increased in value since I acquired mine. I think I paid $200 for each of them. One seller is selling a wallet holster and included this caveat that I felt compelled to share:

Another seller is included a Jackass Leather (Galco's original name) wallet holster with the derringer but he fails to mention the ATF issue - I am surprised that Gun Broker has not spotted that issue.

***GRJ***

Thank you all for the "high praise" on my all expense paid tour of the land of the stinking rice paddy. I felt that the HS was a good choice at the time. There are so many alternatives these days I wouldn't consider a .22 Mag. I've not studied on it but I think my first inclination now would be the Colt .380 Mustang PocketLite[I have two of the originals]
That history lesson from 44 years ago should have noted that it was the last of 3 tours in the RSVN. It ended on 11 Feb. 1971for me with a spectacular helicopter tree landing! Two hundred feet later[helicopters do not "hang" in trees] the aircraft was up side down and facing backward from the way it went in. My Crew Chief/ door gunner and my co-pilot were both badly injured. As the smoke cleared after nearly 7 hours of ugliness with the soldiers of an NVA Battalion, our unit came in and recovered us. The hero of that battle was, and shall ever be, Saint John M. Browning. A beat up, issued ,Rem-Rand 1911A1 saved ALL the bacon that day! My three,including me, and one co-pilot from another downed aircraft are still alive and raising cane as old " Air Cavalry Scouts".If interested, go to Jouster.Com forums and look for "Service Stories", "Where were you on 1 Feb. 1971" it is a recounting of the heroism I posted for my Crew Chief. Sorry, I don't know how to post a link. Thanks again ,and all of you please know how much we appreciate the welcome given our returning troops these days. Us'n old farts know how important that is. Nick

SMOKEY04……what a story….I'm glad you came out ahead on that
event in your life, welcome home……I carried a .38 derringer somewhere around 35 years ago…..there were a couple times I tried to fire it……just to see how it would work, and it didn't…..I got rid of it……..been thinking about a small deep cover gun, that is not really a derringer, but is a 2 shot……not looking to highjack this thread, but anyone have any experience with the double tap?

Semper Fi!

20 some odd years ago I carried a couple of different derringers, .22 Magnum and a .22 LR. Both were fun guns, but knowing what I know now I cannot recommend a derringer as a primary CCW. A 45 or 38 caliber as a deep concealment second back up maybe, but not as a primary weapon. I'd rather just have a knife. You're gonna be that close anyway, and you get more opportunities with the knife than the two shot derringer.

Buford, thanks for the term I was struggling so hard to find.

I have spent lots of time and money on guns and training and carry a full-size gun every day.
My wife will tell you I can frequently be heard saying, "If I can't take my gun, I ain't going."

But every so often I find I must go somewhere without my sidearm. So out come the Onion-field-guns:

They are not really derringers but 1 shot is better than none and 5 shots can come in pretty darned handy.
The NAA has killed several critters including a deer that was injured by a car.

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A real sucker for the J-frames

Quote:

Other "wallet holster" that reveal grips, or reveal slides on small pistols, do not fall within the purview of the ATF restriction. If the gun is totally invisible, for all intents and purposes, as it is when fully enclosed in that Galco holster, it needs the $5.00 tax to be paid. End Quote


Sounds like a job for an Exacto knife.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I find it amusing that while there is seemingly endless discussion about why a j-frame 38 with ONLY 5 rounds is inadequate as a carry gun, some people are obviously comfortable carrying only 2 rounds in a derringer. On another forum I was picked on for saying that my now favorite EDC is a Ruger LC9s with 8 round capacity, by folks who think anything less than about 15 round capacity is foolishly risky. Personally, if I am carrying, I see no advantage to using a 2 round, exposed hammer, wildly inaccurate firearm when in the same size I could easily carry my LCP with 7 rounds. Or in a slightly larger capacity, but still easily concealed, carry my 642 or my LC9s. Maybe derringers are nice as a novelty in one's collection, but that's about as far as I am willing to credit these impractical guns.

I currently own and carry a Bond in (two bbls) 45/410 and 38/357. This gun is perfect for me as I use it when out on my property working. Beautifully made and utterly reliable. I most often carry the 357 bbl 2.5" as it is pretty compact but stout to fire!
Well made gun with a specific purpose for me = WIN!

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Regards
Paul

Without seeing a pic of the holster being referred to, it can't be said whether or not it's one that is covered by NFA, or if the Seller's disclaimer is accurate.

I take any "ATF regulations" quoted in auction listings with a grain of salt unless the regulation number or a link to it is cited.

My experience as a C&R FFL holder in CA has shown me that many citations of firearm laws, are an interpretation by the seller, which is usually inaccurate. A classic example is the wholesale refusal by many FFL's to sell a C&R firearm to CA because they think they are covered by the same restrictions placed on modern firearms... not so.

Simply being a Wallet style Holster that fully encloses a firearm so it doesn't "print" does not automatically make it an NFA item.

THIS is what the BATF lists for Wallet Holsters under the NFA.... the key determining characteristic being the holster has hole to fire weapon while in the holster.

To stay on topic... I feel having a derringer is better than having nothing at all, but that's based on my years of experience of using one in Cowboy Action Shooting and feeling that I could accurately use it. But I sure didn't like relying on it solely as my primary form of CCW, I did so only until I was able to afford and find something better suited.

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Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222