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Old 12-17-2012, 10:43 AM
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Default plan for an armed intruder/hostage situation

I just received an email from someone I know who works for a large non-profit organization that has responsibility for over 100 children a day for after school programs. What with all the talk of Connecticut tragedy, she wanted to know what was the organizations plan for an armed intruder.

Here is the plan for an armed intruder/hostage situation

-Call 911
-Take Cover immediately
-Instruct children to remain on the floor until police give instructions
-Cooperate with the armed individual. Do not approach them. Move SLOWLY.
-Do not try to be a hero and overpower or threaten suspect.
-Do what is possible to ensure the safety of the members and staff.
-Notify the Director
-If person is an intruder, ask for ID and direct or accompany to the office.
-report suspect's location at the faclity, type of weapon and provide a description.
-If hostage situation develops, remove all bystanders from the area.
-Take attendance.

I won't include the emailers comments, but would be interested in hearing your opinions.
Thanks,
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:57 AM
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A lot of classroom doors have windows. If this is the case, would have the children line up along the wall where they cannot be seen from the outside of the door.

Once an intruder enters the campus space the campus should be placed on lockdown. Are classroom doors routinely locked?

When I worked for one factory, we had a place assigned in case we had to evacuate the building (fire). Each group had someone assigned to determine if the entire group was there. In case of a fire, you don't really want to send someone back inside to look for someone. It was considered importand to know who was/wasn't outside.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:01 AM
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One of the basic ideas that our country was founded on was the right to defend oneself against aggression. It's saddening to think that now we have a checklist to run down to teach us how to be sheep, but no plan at all for defense of self, fellow man, or property.
Even our govt. has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists, but somehow in our private lives, they expect us to do just that. Very sad.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:09 AM
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Translation: cower in a corner and hope the police will save you.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moe l. View Post
Translation: cower in a corner and hope the police will save you.
Here's a little snippet I came across...

My old grandpa said to me ‘Son, there comes a time in every man’s
life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually
it’s when he becomes too old to take an *** whoopin.’
I don’t carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep
from being killed.

I don’t carry a gun to scare
people. I carry a gun because sometimes this
world can be a scary place. I don’t carry a gun because I’m
paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.
I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to
see the evil in the world.
I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the
limitations of government..

I don’t carry a gun because
I’m angry. I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest
of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don’t carry a gun because
I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed,
and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don’t carry a gun because I am a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go
to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don’t carry a gun to make me feel
like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take
care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.
I don’t carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron.
Free citizens must protect themselves.
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call
someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take an *** whoopin’…..

author unknown (but
obviously brilliant)
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:22 AM
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First call 911, after that with the factor of protecting kids no one size fits all. Where is the threat? What have we for cover etc?
My biggest pet peeve has always been being told to comply automaticly when someone waves a gun. If we could hit the reset button and tell those kids to scatter odds are some would have survived. It couldnt have been any worse.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:27 AM
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I've been under the impression the WORST thing you could do is comply with a gunman. At that point you could trade places with a sheep at the slaughter house because you'd typically have the same odds of survival. If it were me, I'd run like hell and take as many with me. We all know how difficult it is to hit a moving target. At least you'd have a chance at survival.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:26 PM
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There is no one plan that fits every situation and location. They must be written site by site and with input from local first responders.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moe l. View Post
I've been under the impression the WORST thing you could do is comply with a gunman.
I am sure they are trying to buy some time till the police arrive.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:05 PM
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My former school district ran a Code Z drill once a year, in the event of an intruder in the school building. It basically instructed staff to lock each classroom door, move students to a part of the classroom away from the door, wait for further instructions via the intercom. Should an intruder have been able to gain access to a classroom, I would have been tasked with defending my students and myself with a fistful of dry board markers and two dozen tattered copies of "Catcher in the Rye". The Code Z plan was woefully reliant on taking cover and anxiously awaiting for first responders to get on scene to identify and neutralize the threat. It was a rather unrealistic safety plan in my opinion.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:13 PM
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There is a large difference in what adults, whether armed or unarmed would do in this situation and what someone caring for 100 kids would do. They will HAVE to comply in some manner with the intruders demands, since a teacher will certainly be unarmed. This is a nightmare scenario, and I don't know that there is a standard response that would cover everything.

All the above suggestions are good. I will add one more....Pray....HARD.
Jim
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:06 PM
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Brings to mind the old poster "In case of nuclear air raid."Several instructions such as move away from window etc. and ended with" bend over grasp your ankles and kiss your ---goodbye"
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:22 PM
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ranks as option Z
Option A ... get the little lambs OUT and as far AWAY as possible.
Option B ... if option A is met with resistance, break as many bones and rupture as many sensitive glands as possible or die trying while the children continue the pilgrimage to safety.
Option C ... Offer to help the intruder in achieving his objective. IF you talk a gun off the nut case PLUG HIM TILL THE MAG RUNS DRY
Option D ... call his parents and report his behavior.
Option E ... Call your parents and report yours.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:08 PM
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I do feel a drill to remove the target from the threat is primary. With a large group this is difficult, but can be done if one has control of the building and all are familiar with it. Heavy, lockable doors to classrooms(we had these when I was a kid nearly sixty years ago in hurricane country) and retreat rooms. But PREVENTION is key.
The primary fault with the concept is assuming "HOSTAGE SITUATION".
Assuming "the bad man will be nice if I do as he says" will probably turn out badly. What tactics are going to work that are worth risking the lives of the hostages? It's a huge disadvantage.
Avoiding a hostage situation is primarily accomplished by hardening a target. Providing an armed guard, and locked doors, rather than accepting the scenario of being taken hostage is what works.
Introducing a hole card, an armed guard, short circuits the threat in most scenarios.
Thanks, God Bless
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:32 PM
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The best thing is a trained armed teacher or guard. But what do I know?
That or disarm everyone in the country except for cops and military. Laws were broke in every shooting. All nuts will obey every new law and regulation.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moe l. View Post
I've been under the impression the WORST thing you could do is comply with a gunman. At that point you could trade places with a sheep at the slaughter house because you'd typically have the same odds of survival. If it were me, I'd run like hell and take as many with me. We all know how difficult it is to hit a moving target. At least you'd have a chance at survival.
I always love seeing the official police line when someone fights back against an armed robber and they say you are better off giving in. I got my pistol permit in 1995 because I was working overnights at a convenient store and every cop I knew would tell me to get one because by the time they got there it would be all over. Amazing that two weeks after I left the place was robbed.

I once worked for a large industrial mill and there worry was someone walking into the front office and either shooting up the place or taking the company President hostage. None of us were armed even though the head of security, the assistant head, and the head of operations were all ex cops. The President of the company's brilliant plan was that if someone went up front with a gun to send one of us with a camera to videotape what was transpiring. (Not kidding that was the plan). My boss refused to do it because the fact that our uniforms were strikingly similar to the local PD and we might catch a bullet and certainly would be in the way of the local cops and would put someone at risk. The response of having the head of security carrying a pistol concealed of the head of operations carrying concealed was laughed at because they thought too many bad things could happen.

I have worked doing higher end security for many places before and since getting into law enforcement and what I will tell you is that no company, school whatever likes to spend the money on security and when the budget gets tight it is the first thing to go because it is looked as being not necessary. We had a local school after Columbine get a security person, made sure entry was being made by the right people, but after the first school budget, that person was let go. There was a local department officer sent to a school as a resource officer, once money got tight they were let go. I worked part time for a company that made medical supplies which utilized a lot of gold and silver being on hand. We would find the safe which housed all the precious metals in it left open all the time, employees hanging out, kids trespassing etc. When I first started there everyone working there were ex or current cops and all was well. Then the budget got cut and the company got cheap and when I left I was the last person who had any real experience. Low and behold problems started including thefts, even by some of the security help who were little more than minimum wage slaves. Eventually they canned them all and the last I heard stuff is disappearing all the time now and the company can't figure out why.
When I worked at a psych hospital which was pretty upscale and most patients were there because they are private pay I found out exactly what happens when money trumps security interests. We had escapes all the time but because of the strict rules after they reached a certain point we were under orders not to follow. One guy got fired simply because a girl was trying to climb a fence and she was going to fall so he reached out and tried to catch her. (this place had children and relatives of state senators and the like) He put a black and blue mark on her arm where he caught her and even though there were witnesses they still tossed him. I left because because I was responsible for the security of the whole hospital while I was working and to save money they added on more jobs like having us collect the garbage from the whole place, all the while being told if an emergency comes up to respond ASAP.
The problem is that most places look at and hire security simply because it lowers their insurance and they fail to look at it from an actual point of stopping anything. Look at your mall cops and places like amusement parks and fairs. One job I had was working armed work collecting money with another employee at an amusement park. It was nothing to collect $30000 or more every night. The company didn't like the complaints it was getting from the public seeing armed guards (I wore a Model 19 and another guy who was a retired LEO who carried a Model 15). Eventually they got rid of us and went to unarmed guards but still people collecting all that money. We were paid well but the new guys were making $6.25 an hour in 1998. Thank God nothing ever happened.
Schools are making a big show of beefing up security right now and towns by having security, cops in every school whatever, but when it comes time to pass the new budgets and the towns and boards see what all that overtime is costing they will drop it, because nothing bad happened there. I don't know what the answer is, banning guns is the first kneejerk reaction as usual and they may get their wish the way some of the NRA backed politicians are already caving. In the end something else will happen and they will demand another law and so on and so forth. Should teachers be armed, I don't know I have seen some of the teachers out there and don't see it. More liberal places like NYC, California and Chicago won't allow that. I think though that people need to get their heads out of their backsides and take security more seriously. They have made the schools this way be their liberal policies and now they need to figure out how to fix them.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
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I am sure they are trying to buy some time till the police arrive.
And we have seen exactly how many people can die in the process of waiting for the cavalry to arrive. Too much has been made of calling 911 and now 20 kids are dead because the mindset of relying on others to save you has played out.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:14 PM
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That is essentially the recommendation of the experts for airplane hijackings prior to Sept. 11, 2001.

It was predicated on the assumption that the hijackers/intruders wanted hostages for bartering purposes. It was based on past experience where hostage negotiators and special operations teams were successful in wearing down hostage takers or if worst came to worst killing them while minimizing the risk of harm to the innocents.

As we learned on Sept. 11, some people don't want hostages, they want scalps. So, the thinking and tactics changed starting that day to fight back, even if people die it's better than being slaughtered like sheep.

The same goes for mass murder at schools, mall, churches, or any other public gathering. ------ didn't take hostages, he broke in and murdered his victims. -------- at Virginia Tech took hostages only long enough to kill them. ------- in Arizona killed people, he wasn't interested in hostages either. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

The plan you outline assumes that the intruder/hostage taker will meekly submit to directions by authority figures. If they were willing to do that, they wouldn't be intruders or hostage takers.

Here is thought.

Secure the kids as best as possible.
Find and engage the intruder.
Ambush is the best way, so be as quiet as possible.
If you have a gun and he won't submit to your orders, shoot him to the ground.
If you don't have a gun, a baseball bat is an innocuous item that no one objects to you having in your classroom. When applied to the arms or head or an intruder it will cause him to stop for at least a second. Take the opportunity to repeatedly hit him until he falls to the ground.

Don't be a passive victim.

Every employee of the school should be trained in this.

The ideal would be for a willing cadre of teachers, administrators, and staff to be trained and equipped with firearms.

Last edited by GaryS; 12-24-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:40 PM
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When the police get there they need to move fast. Anything you can do to facilitate that would be a good idea. Communication is also important. It's important for everyone at the police department, not just one or two guys, to know what you're going to do in the event of an emergency. Various plans call for teachers to have an emergency backpack or briefcase in the classrooms that they can grab and go. Ideally there would be a gun in there in my perfect world, but that's not going to happen. Other stuff would be first aid supplies, emergency contact info. for each kid who could potentially be in the class all day, etc. Also, if a room is locked and secure, someone can arrange a predetermined signal to let the cops known so they don't waste time on that room. Something they can see as they're running down the hall. Stakeholders should probably meet at least quarterly to share ideas and notes.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:07 PM
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CALL 911 !
what will be the responsive if the Police is 10-7 on another high priority call ??
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David LaPell View Post
I always love seeing the official police line when someone fights back against an armed robber and they say you are better off giving in. I got my pistol permit in 1995 because I was working overnights at a convenient store and every cop I knew would tell me to get one because by the time they got there it would be all over. Amazing that two weeks after I left the place was robbed.

I once worked for a large industrial mill and there worry was someone walking into the front office and either shooting up the place or taking the company President hostage. None of us were armed even though the head of security, the assistant head, and the head of operations were all ex cops. The President of the company's brilliant plan was that if someone went up front with a gun to send one of us with a camera to videotape what was transpiring. (Not kidding that was the plan). My boss refused to do it because the fact that our uniforms were strikingly similar to the local PD and we might catch a bullet and certainly would be in the way of the local cops and would put someone at risk. The response of having the head of security carrying a pistol concealed of the head of operations carrying concealed was laughed at because they thought too many bad things could happen.

I have worked doing higher end security for many places before and since getting into law enforcement and what I will tell you is that no company, school whatever likes to spend the money on security and when the budget gets tight it is the first thing to go because it is looked as being not necessary. We had a local school after Columbine get a security person, made sure entry was being made by the right people, but after the first school budget, that person was let go. There was a local department officer sent to a school as a resource officer, once money got tight they were let go. I worked part time for a company that made medical supplies which utilized a lot of gold and silver being on hand. We would find the safe which housed all the precious metals in it left open all the time, employees hanging out, kids trespassing etc. When I first started there everyone working there were ex or current cops and all was well. Then the budget got cut and the company got cheap and when I left I was the last person who had any real experience. Low and behold problems started including thefts, even by some of the security help who were little more than minimum wage slaves. Eventually they canned them all and the last I heard stuff is disappearing all the time now and the company can't figure out why.
When I worked at a psych hospital which was pretty upscale and most patients were there because they are private pay I found out exactly what happens when money trumps security interests. We had escapes all the time but because of the strict rules after they reached a certain point we were under orders not to follow. One guy got fired simply because a girl was trying to climb a fence and she was going to fall so he reached out and tried to catch her. (this place had children and relatives of state senators and the like) He put a black and blue mark on her arm where he caught her and even though there were witnesses they still tossed him. I left because because I was responsible for the security of the whole hospital while I was working and to save money they added on more jobs like having us collect the garbage from the whole place, all the while being told if an emergency comes up to respond ASAP.
The problem is that most places look at and hire security simply because it lowers their insurance and they fail to look at it from an actual point of stopping anything. Look at your mall cops and places like amusement parks and fairs. One job I had was working armed work collecting money with another employee at an amusement park. It was nothing to collect $30000 or more every night. The company didn't like the complaints it was getting from the public seeing armed guards (I wore a Model 19 and another guy who was a retired LEO who carried a Model 15). Eventually they got rid of us and went to unarmed guards but still people collecting all that money. We were paid well but the new guys were making $6.25 an hour in 1998. Thank God nothing ever happened.
Schools are making a big show of beefing up security right now and towns by having security, cops in every school whatever, but when it comes time to pass the new budgets and the towns and boards see what all that overtime is costing they will drop it, because nothing bad happened there. I don't know what the answer is, banning guns is the first kneejerk reaction as usual and they may get their wish the way some of the NRA backed politicians are already caving. In the end something else will happen and they will demand another law and so on and so forth. Should teachers be armed, I don't know I have seen some of the teachers out there and don't see it. More liberal places like NYC, California and Chicago won't allow that. I think though that people need to get their heads out of their backsides and take security more seriously. They have made the schools this way be their liberal policies and now they need to figure out how to fix them.
As someone who works in the private security field, in regards to this I can honestly say AMEN! However, most of the clients I deal with over the years hired security guards not only for insurance purposes, but for somebody to assume responsibility, risk, and liability for them. In other words, someone to throw under the bus at every opprotunity.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:53 PM
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Great input guys. I agree GaryS making the assumption that it is a hostage situation is the first mistake. They need a plan for an armed intruder that assumes he is there to kill everyone. You all gave me good ideas, but I am no expert so how do I get across to the leaders there that a new plan needs to be developed. Who in the community is available to call upon to provide expert advise. Do you just call Homeland Security or the FBI, Where to start? How do you fight those that say not to defend yourself or take an aggressive strategy. I'm sure that there are those that want a passive policy. How does one defeat that type of madness. Perhaps there needs to be a community wide policy developed for all schools and institutions. Anyone have experience with this type of thing?
Again thanks for your input.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:30 PM
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Well, all this macho chest-thumping about arming teachers and so forth is just silly --- slice a cross-section of National Educational Association members, and you'll find teachers and administrators willing to train to and use firearms as scarce as fat on filet mignon. Apologies to the few exceptions who are forum members, if it need be said, but as a class, public school teachers, college professors, administrators, etc., are mostly dyed-in-the-wool "hoplophobes", (Col. Cooper's coined term for irrational gun-haters), and are maybe one click above Buddhist monks in their aversion to using self-defensive or protective force, and are card-carrying sheep, for the most part. These are not the people we ought to look to, to defend schoolkids, or even themselves.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:46 PM
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Well, all this macho chest-thumping about arming teachers and so forth is just silly --
Probably a lot more than you think. The NEA does not speak for a majority of teachers. In fact, many that I know wouldn't be members if they had a choice.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:49 PM
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I wish I had a good answer for you. I have no faith in the FBI or any other law enforcement agency (outside of St. Louis County) to advise you to fight back. They'll all tout the standard line about "lock downs" calling 9-1-1, hiding, not resisting, and the rest of the failed techniques.

Some people have suggested putting police officers in every school in the country. That's financially impractical. Some towns would have devote all of their day shift personnel just to the schools. Or they'd have to pay officers overtime. Or they'd have to hire more officers.

The state of the economy just doesn't allow that. And funds for school security programs have been cut under the current President, so look for lip service from the federal government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonecove View Post
Great input guys. I agree GaryS making the assumption that it is a hostage situation is the first mistake. They need a plan for an armed intruder that assumes he is there to kill everyone. You all gave me good ideas, but I am no expert so how do I get across to the leaders there that a new plan needs to be developed. Who in the community is available to call upon to provide expert advise. Do you just call Homeland Security or the FBI, Where to start? How do you fight those that say not to defend yourself or take an aggressive strategy. I'm sure that there are those that want a passive policy. How does one defeat that type of madness. Perhaps there needs to be a community wide policy developed for all schools and institutions. Anyone have experience with this type of thing?
Again thanks for your input.
Stonecove
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:33 PM
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Probably a lot more than you think. The NEA does not speak for a majority of teachers. In fact, many that I know wouldn't be members if they had a choice.
And so, my preemptive apology to you, and others here, who are, I'm confident, the exception to the rule. Nonetheless, as George Orwell said, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." I'm unwilling to entrust my own sister, an elementary school teacher, who is pretty much a sheep, to take responsibility for bodyguarding schoolchildren. We need well trained, "rough men", not schoolmarms and bureaucrats, to intercede and kill assailants of schoolchildren.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:36 PM
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Prevention would be best, teaching faculty members ways to delay some wackjob would be the next step. Ever been in an enclosed area with a discharged fire extinguisher? You cant breath, fog them with it. Door jambs and get the kids out the windows and running away from the guy with the gun. School have an archery unit? Well arrows were dropping bad guys long before guns were. Scissors? They look like 2 knives pinned together to me.

Bad thing is, time is on the bad guys side.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:41 PM
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As a professional locksmith I've done quit a bit of work at local schools both public and private.

Most schools are wide open. You can walk right in the front door unopposed. Some require you to be "buzzed" in.

These schools have the best hardware. The best doors. Safety glass and closers.

IMO, if schools were in a state of constant lock down requiring any and all visitors to use the front door and be "buzzed" in, we would not have these shootings.

It would take considerable effort to shoot your way in. And once inside it would take more effort to gain access to classrooms and office areas if the doors were locked. In accordance with fire and building codes all doors must open outwards for emergency egress. So a door that does not swing inward cannot be forced in. Shoot the lock off the door? Unlikely even with a rifle. That's why cops use a shotgun with slugs.

Special locks and door releases are available specifically for these situations but are expensive. Every lock in the school can be locked and every door can be closed with a push of a button. But school budgets make this an unlikely expense.

The bottom line is once the bad guy is in, it doesn't matter what we do. Whether you hide or fight, somebody is going to get hurt. But if you can slow the bad guy down significantly, maybe the cops can get there before someone gets hurt.

It's no different than keeping the bad guy out of your home. If he gets in and you don't have time to act, you're at his mercy. If he has any.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:01 AM
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Come on guys. Don't get this thread locked too. Some of us would like to discuss this more.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:44 AM
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Most schools are wide open. You can walk right in the front door unopposed. Some require you to be "buzzed" in.
Sandy Hook had recently installed a state-of-the-art security system where everyone needed to be buzzed in. So he went through a window... No security system is perfect, just like no answer to this thread is going to be.

Recently Michigan legistlation passed the "right to work" bill and there was a large amount of upheaval. Because of that, my employer released a statement with precautionary plans for different scenarios (bombs, shooters, etc) and most of it was "watch for thigns that seem odd, go with your gut, get out of there and call 911". We are not allowed to be armed at work, but are very much a part of the public and have angry visitors at times. Taking schools out of the debate, what do other work places do to prep for these situations?
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:27 AM
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If you look on CNN.com, you'll see that it took the police 20 minutes after the first calls for police and other first responders to arrive. As we now know, a lot happened in those 20 minutes, none of it good.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:09 AM
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Why are security systems less effective in public schools than in banks? Because the education system culture is in denial, and we have perhaps entered a new stage of danger. (As a kid, my family never locked our house, nor did any of our neighbors).
Schools are behind the curve, but it isn't too late to correct. My job includes the protection of several adults and children in foreign countries and right here in the U.S.
Their private schools have armed guards, not because they care more for their children, but rather because the reality of threat has been visited upon them and they have accepted the reality, uncomfortable as it is to think about. This not rocket surgery, it's an admission of unmanageability, and a decision to correct the problem by using proven methods.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:36 AM
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I would say forget hiding and run in addition, you can't comply with a gunman, if you do he will take you to the place where HE wants to shoot you because for what ever reason he doesn't want to shoot you where you stand.
Maybe we need airplane cockpit style doors on our classrooms.
Or forget it all and find a way to get the mentally ill off the streets, that's the real problem.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:24 AM
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I havent visited any school in over 50 years. However I suppose they are every level of size and expense.
Overall the cheapest thing that would work is train teachers and arm them. I suppose something like 5 to 10 percent might go for that idea. The most expensive thing to do would be to put LE in every school. There are many small communitys can hardly pay a liveing wage for what they have. I like the grandfather system the best. Yesterday I typed what I thought the best or at least, a good idea here. It lasted less than 3 minuets before it dissapeared. I will clean it up politicaly and try again.
Maybe sombody here doesnt think I know what I am talking about. Maybe I dont, as I am a slow learner. However I do have almost as much security experiance as I am old (71 1/2) if you go by 40 hours a week.
Why not ask the POTUS for some of that stymulus money he wants to give away to set up a training program for the grandfather idea? That would be the cheapest thing to do. If he wants to improve on that idea himself he could easly actualy pay and employ maybe another 1/2 million new jobs to boost the economy.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:17 PM
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Well, all this macho chest-thumping about arming teachers and so forth is just silly --- slice a cross-section of National Educational Association members, and you'll find teachers and administrators willing to train to and use firearms as scarce as fat on filet mignon.
That makes about as much sense as saying cops aren't in favor of CCW because the National Association of Chiefs of Police says so.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:10 PM
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I am from a contry where it is not allowed to carry a gun or use a gun for home defense. I can only use a gun on a range (from .22 up to .357 for handguns). It takes from 3 weeks to 3 months to get a permission for a handgun. I can have the guns and ammunition at home locked in a safe. I should have very good reason to use a handgun against an intruder. I have to prove that this was the only way I would not be killed by the intruder......more or less. That is how it is here. Because an intruder knows that he is relative safe it is rare that it ends up violent. Normally they just want money and they do not want to kill people. It is very rare a person just want to kill.

But.....how often have you needed your "carry gun" for self defense? .....the importance of carry a gun for self defense.....it may be "overrated" compared to other risks here in life?

If you use a gun for self defense.....and maybe kill a person.....how good reasons should you have? .....I guess such a case will end up in the court? .....for an intruder in your house....is that a good reason.....even if he is unarmed? ....are there any rules for how to use the gun....e.g. first step point the gun a the person....and tell him to leave....and if not....a warning shot......and if not...then a hit-shot?

If you draw a gun...in a public area...without fire it......will such a case normally end up i court? ....and it will be evaluated if this was ok to draw the gun?
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:02 PM
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I am from a contry where it is not allowed to carry a gun or use a gun for home defense. I can only use a gun on a range (from .22 up to .357 for handguns). It takes from 3 weeks to 3 months to get a permission for a handgun. I can have the guns and ammunition at home locked in a safe. I should have very good reason to use a handgun against an intruder. I have to prove that this was the only way I would not be killed by the intruder......more or less. That is how it is here. Because an intruder knows that he is relative safe it is rare that it ends up violent. Normally they just want money and they do not want to kill people. It is very rare a person just want to kill.

But.....how often have you needed your "carry gun" for self defense? .....the importance of carry a gun for self defense.....it may be "overrated" compared to other risks here in life?

If you use a gun for self defense.....and maybe kill a person.....how good reasons should you have? .....I guess such a case will end up in the court? .....for an intruder in your house....is that a good reason.....even if he is unarmed? ....are there any rules for how to use the gun....e.g. first step point the gun a the person....and tell him to leave....and if not....a warning shot......and if not...then a hit-shot?

If you draw a gun...in a public area...without fire it......will such a case normally end up i court? ....and it will be evaluated if this was ok to draw the gun?
Your questions are difficult to give clear cut answers to because each State in the USA has its own laws. Some states don't allow Concealed Carry, most states recognize permits from a number of other States. Some states have a duty to retreat, some do not. Some have castle doctrines, some do not. Some are open carry states, some are not.

In most states one cannot use deadly force to protect property, but Texas is an exception. Any time someone uses a handgun in defense, legal proceedings could happen.

That being said, in Texas if someone is breaking in a door to get into a persons home whether he is armed or not the homeowner may use deadly force to stop the intruder. But after he is shot, one does not have the right to continue shooting once the threat is stopped.

In some states one might be compelled to retreat to the far corner of their house to retreat from the intruder, and are duty to retreat states. That used to be the law in Tennessee.

As far as how often does one really need his concealed weapon, if you carry it for 20 years and it saves your life one,
I would reckon it would be worth it. As for most criminals
not wanting to do anything except take money, if there
is an intruder breaking in, you don't have a good way to determine what his intentions are. So for me, if the deadbolt strong door is being knocked down, I would stop the intruder at the door coming in. I have never been to your country,
Denmark, but I have been to Norway many years ago.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:36 PM
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Sandy Hook had recently installed a state-of-the-art security system where everyone needed to be buzzed in. So he went through a window... No security system is perfect, just like no answer to this thread is going to be.

Recently Michigan legistlation passed the "right to work" bill and there was a large amount of upheaval. Because of that, my employer released a statement with precautionary plans for different scenarios (bombs, shooters, etc) and most of it was "watch for thigns that seem odd, go with your gut, get out of there and call 911". We are not allowed to be armed at work, but are very much a part of the public and have angry visitors at times. Taking schools out of the debate, what do other work places do to prep for these situations?
Most businesses are not well prepared either. Access control (keyless entry) is very expensive. So quite often only major corporations can afford it.

I've done work at banks, pharmaceutical companies, police departments, schools etc.....
If done right you can't even get in the front door. And once in the front door, quite often there is another door that is locked. And most of the time there are cameras recording everything.

I am not sure how the shooter gained access at Sandy Hook but one radio report said that he was let in the door by the Principal. Whether he did walk in the front door or crawl through a window, safety procedures were not followed.

Obama was right. We are not taking care of our children. But gun control is not the answer. I would gladly give $5 more per new gun purchase towards increasing the security of our schools.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:08 PM
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I think the key is that any security measure can can be beaten. Doors with locks, cameras, buzzed-in only systems, they can all be beat. Easily.

So we use them as a partial preventive measure. Just because you have locked doors doesn't mean you can let your guard down.

If an intruder gets in you need to have a plan. Hiding is a good plan until you are found. If an intruder gets past the front door and into a room, you better have a plan B.

I am pushing for a response cabinet, like a fire extinguisher cabinet, accessible to trained personnel, that contains the tools that they can use to save lives. Perhaps a taser, tear gas, smoke bombs, hand cuffs, a gun, rifle, maybe a shotgun that shoots bean bags if you want a less lethal choice.

If you had such a cache of tools, there is chance that someone in the school would be able to use them. If only one life were saved the response cabinet would be extremely valuable.

What would have happened if someone threw a couple of high density smoke bombs in the room that school shooter were in? So thick he couldn't see? He would have run out, and into what? Perhaps an armed Principal or an ex-cop custodian.

What I'm saying is at least make the tools for defense available so the poor victims have a fighting chance....
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:23 PM
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Just having some sort of training on how to handle this situation would be a big step in the right direction. In my county we have never been informed or trained on how to handle a hostile intruder. As a department we have come up with a plan, but nothing building wide.

This is a gun forum so we all are shooters, but I am sure we can also agree being prepared and using our minds is more effective than any tool like a gun.

TD
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:28 PM
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I think the key is that any security measure can can be beaten. Doors with locks, cameras, buzzed-in only systems, they can all be beat. Easily.

So we use them as a partial preventive measure. Just because you have locked doors doesn't mean you can let your guard down.

If an intruder gets in you need to have a plan. Hiding is a good plan until you are found. If an intruder gets past the front door and into a room, you better have a plan B.

I am pushing for a response cabinet, like a fire extinguisher cabinet, accessible to trained personnel, that contains the tools that they can use to save lives. Perhaps a taser, tear gas, smoke bombs, hand cuffs, a gun, rifle, maybe a shotgun that shoots bean bags if you want a less lethal choice.

If you had such a cache of tools, there is chance that someone in the school would be able to use them. If only one life were saved the response cabinet would be extremely valuable.

What would have happened if someone threw a couple of high density smoke bombs in the room that school shooter were in? So thick he couldn't see? He would have run out, and into what? Perhaps an armed Principal or an ex-cop custodian.

What I'm saying is at least make the tools for defense available so the poor victims have a fighting chance....
So..... How do YOU defeat a magnetic lock or electric strike with 1500 foot pounds of holding force?

If you have figured out how to bypass such locks, a few manufactures want to hire you as a consultant.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:41 PM
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So..... How do YOU defeat a magnetic lock or electric strike with 1500 foot pounds of holding force?

If you have figured out how to bypass such locks, a few manufactures want to hire you as a consultant.
Precisely Kanew, these assaults aren't trained SEAL operators, or dedicated armed robbery crews. These are deranged individuals emotionally driven. They might well have been reduced to pounding on the door in tears, because for the first time in their lives, they weren't getting their way.
Just a little time before they get inside the compound can make ALL the difference.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:26 AM
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So..... How do YOU defeat a magnetic lock or electric strike with 1500 foot pounds of holding force?
Just spitballing here, but I suspect that an automobile could do it.

Last edited by Cheyenne WYO; 12-19-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:45 PM
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Just spitballing here, but I suspect that an automobile could do it.
There's a solution for that too. Spitball back atcha.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:13 PM
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And if the door is too strong, what about the plate glass windows or the brick exterior. There are solutions to any problem, The problem is that, if we turn our schools, then office buildings, then malls, then hospitals, and on and on, into impenetrable prisons, all at taxpayer and consumer expense, the terrorists and bad people, both foreign and domestic, macro and micro, have won, because they have caused us to spend ourselves into poverty over something that can be handled by simply training more people to shoot back. Is it fail safe? No. But neither is anything else that costs a whole lot more money.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:10 PM
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I am a retired high school chem teacher. I taught in a suburban school. I taught for 35years. We went from all the doors open to front door entry only. Badges required for all personnel though I was retired by then (2006). We also had an armed police officer on duty during school hours. I think every school should have one at least. It has to be done. I can't picture some of my former colleagues handling a firearm even with training. It's just too much to expect. There's already too much to the job. Yiogo
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:31 PM
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And if the door is too strong, what about the plate glass windows or the brick exterior. There are solutions to any problem, The problem is that, if we turn our schools, then office buildings, then malls, then hospitals, and on and on, into impenetrable prisons, all at taxpayer and consumer expense, the terrorists and bad people, both foreign and domestic, macro and micro, have won, because they have caused us to spend ourselves into poverty over something that can be handled by simply training more people to shoot back. Is it fail safe? No. But neither is anything else that costs a whole lot more money.
Unfortunately our world has changed. Remember 9/11?

Domestic and non domestic terrorists will strike at our weak points unless we do something about.

If you make your home a safe place to live for you and your family, why wouldn't you do it where our kids spend 8-10 hours a day?

And the money is there. We just have to stop helping other countries and help ourselves for once.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:25 AM
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I think I saw something about a 9/11 thing. I also seem to recall that the national debt was about $4 Trillion back then, but that it quadrupled in the next 10 years as we tried to be all things to all people. It can't go on. Our unborn descendants already are on the hook for too much. Why not just let people undergo background checks and get training (with periodic recertifications) with endorsements like a CDL and give them a nationwide CCW that allows them to carry guns within their level of training? They can get a general license, then get an airplane endorsement, etc. It sounds very cost effective. Let's face it, we already allow pilots to carry on planes, and their qualifications are: (1) they are smart enough to know how to fly planes and meet some medical requirements; and (2) they took some classes on shooting. I know it won't happen, and that we will come up with some new taxpayer funded program to deal with this little slice of the problem until the next problem comes along.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:14 AM
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So..... How do YOU defeat a magnetic lock or electric strike with 1500 foot pounds of holding force?

If you have figured out how to bypass such locks, a few manufactures want to hire you as a consultant.
I do it every day I go to my kid's school. I push the intercom button and they open it for me. I'm sure the school shooter could have done the same thing, his mother worked there.

Or I could walk in after someone else got buzzed in.
I could have an insider let me in.
I could have an insider activate a fire pull station and the doors should unlock.
Or I could break the glass and be more noticed.

Could I get into a bank vault? No, but some people can and have done so. Nothing is impenetrable. Remember when that couple walked in to the Whitehouse dinner party? That is the greatest security in the world and it was breached...

Do you want to live in a world where you have 20" thick reinforced concrete walls and solid steel doors? I don't. Locks are a start, but not the end-all answer.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:59 AM
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You do it like its done in courthouses, etc. I did security work for over 35 years. You have a armed guard sitting at a desk at the entrance. You have to walk past him. You either show him a pass or he has a list, knows you or whatever. Some have detectors like a flyway gate. Depends on how big the place is and what they think you need. Security would vary from a retired cop or farmer sitting in his car in front of a one room school house (if they still exist) to uniformed officers walking the halls.
Security can be anything from a qualified teacher packing to the above. The way to decide is the school board has meetings with a local police chief or security experts to advise them. The cheapest way is to have volenteers that pass some type qualification standard and background checks. You would have a roster system set up to get ahold of your volenteers to scheduel. I would recommend maybe two half days a week per person if you had enough people.
Barring that, how about that stymulus money the potus is trying to give away? If he actualy wants to pay guards besides I am sure it would create a lot of jobs.
The school would need a safe where the guard could get stored rifle or shotgun or maybe vest if need be.
The system could be flexable for everything from volenteers to paid officers at large schools.
Once it was announced that ever school had security odds are few if any would be attacked.
Now the flaw with this idea is that good security works too well. You have no way of knowing of how many nuts you have thwarted by just being there. After long periods of nothing happening you are taken less serious. Expendses will be cut back and volenteers will feel less needed unless something actualy happens. Thats the nature of the beast.

Last edited by feralmerril; 12-21-2012 at 12:11 PM. Reason: add info.
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