Which would you choose.

I did some shooting with my new Benelli Nova. My goal was to road test it with various ammo and look at some patterns of home defense ammo. In the two attached pictures you will see the following:

One disk (target) with many holes. that is the Winchester super X - #4 Buck. 27 pellets (I counted 22 on my target so not bad. Note that I was a about twice as far as I would be if I was in my bed room (which is where this will reside).

One disk (target) has two different rounds through it. First, Federal PD132 low recoil 9 pellets of 00 buck. (see the green circle). I couldn't count 9, but it obviously kept a tight group. Note distance of about 30 ft. The big hole in the bottom of the target that is not circled is the flight control wad from this round.

The other hole on the target is a slug (plus). Winchester PDX1. It also sends three 00 buck along for the ride. Note the four holes in red. I've shot this at a closer range (more like my bed room of 15 ft) and the spread is not near as wide - so it expands pretty quickly with distance.

I'm leaning toward the Winchester 4Buck but it's hard to ignore that slug.

On a side note, I cycled a number of rounds through the gun and it performed very well. This is the first time I ever patterned a shot gun I was surprised that the target loads throw out so many pellets. I don't feel as good as I use to about hitting 50% the first couple times I've shot at clay pigeons.

Attached Images

	P1020459.jpg (64.5 KB, 93 views)
	P1020461.jpg (70.8 KB, 106 views)

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18-4, 15-4

Mostly it will come down to personal preference. At close distances - shotgun loads have little time for the pattern to spread so don't overlook how important aiming is. Slugs and various size buck shot will likely all be effective when properly placed at home defense range.

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M&PC FS BG Shield+ 642 686+

Between the two I would like the #4. Look at the Shotgun World Forums I think in the tactical forums. Lots of wound profiles in balistic gel. #4 is the smallet I will go for defense. The flite control is definatly good especially for targets further out. Across a room maybe not so much depending on what you want to accomplish. A six inch pattern on target would be a show stopper as well as a two inch with 00. One would have to pattern their particular round and find out what they like and go with that. I shot plain federal 00 last year at targets further out and liked the low recoil. I have shot thousands of rounds of skeet loads and depend on the M500 for home protection before the pistol.

I'm less concerned with shot size and more concerned with overpenetration , and damage to the woodwork. Ya have to realistically look at the furthest possible shot and see just how much spread your chosen gun/load have. A load of hi-brass #2 or BB shot thru the 20in IC barrel will hit virtually en mass at the furthest range likely in my house with little to no chance of overpenetration. And if they don't die instantly , they'll probably leak out before the ER picks all the pellets out.

I too am concerned about over penetration. Realistically the longest shot inside of my home is going to be 20'. The wad would barely have time to open. After seeing how effective #6 bird shot was on pheasant I talked to a hunting buddy who happens to be an MD. He told me that he has seen people in the emergency room that were hit at close range with bird shot and in his words "it makes a mess".

I switched from using 00 Buck to using 2 3/4" #6 bird shot 1 1/4 OZ high base loads for in home defense in my 20" Rem. 870. I live in a townhome and feel more comfortable that this will not penetrate walls.

A couple of years back I had the opportunity to fire two rounds of 3" 000 buck at a nutria in a pond. Out of my 26" O/U it was the most sever recoil I've ever experienced out of any long gun I've ever fired. I was also disappointed with the pattern, in that there simply were not enough pellets to create a pattern.

At any range you can legitimately claim defense, with a shotgun it makes absolutely no difference what shot size is used. It can reasonably be argued the smaller the better. Inside a house it would be rare for range to exceed 5-8 yards. At this distance pattern is still in the size range of, at most, 6-8".

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Everyone has to make their own decisions based on needs, constraints and comfort thresholds -- no one should be unduly begrudged that so long as the decision is researched and thoughtful.

I'll agree that bird shot to the face at point blank is almost assuredly a fight stopper.

But point blank and to the face a luxuries in a self defense situation. And humans aren't pheasants. And birdshot makes a mess because it's shallow penetration.

In short, it may do the job and it may minimize peripheral risks, but at the expense of increasing the primary risk: failure to quickly and effectively stop an attack.

Of the listed options: Federal reduced recoil 00 buck.

Good reading: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

At 20 ft,1 1/8 ozs of lead traveling 1200 fps is going to be lethal whatever the shot size.

00 buck. Absolutely no bird shot.

If you live in an apartment, get a handgun with the appropriate ammo for that situation.

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Centennial Every Day

More worthwhile reading...

Self-defense shotgun shell selection guide & FAQ

Pattern is one thing, penetration is another.

While at close distances the pattern of 200 pellets of #6 shot may be the same as 9 pellets of 00Buck, the larger pellets of the 00Buck have much more energy in them and will penetrate MUCH deeper into the target.

We're talking the difference between 9 pellets of 9mm at 1200 fps or 200 pellets of very small pieces of lead, less than half the size of BB's.

The birdshot may hurt a man, and may stop him, but the buckshot is devastating.

I don't mean to pick on you, as I have seen many posts here and elsewhere that seem to indicate that Total Shot Weight * Velocity = Some level of Damage. However, this is simply not the case.

Each pellet produces its own wound channel, and those wound channels are equal to the weight of each projectile times the velocity (something you did point out).

The easy DIY home test that can also be used to settle a minor score with a buddy is to measure out 1-1/8 oz of BBs, and then find a 1-1/8 oz or slightly smaller rock; after that - throw them at each other until someone gives up.

I guarantee the BB thrower gives up first, regardless of distance you choose to play the game. The increased velocity gunpowder produces only serves to increase the difference in damage caused by the larger single projectile.

Trusting ones life to bird shot is trusting that pain alone will stop an attack, as the smaller projectiles simply do not have the ability to reach anything vital enough to reliably "force" the stoppage of an attack. It is an individual choice, but I would suggest that anyone (even without the bolstering of a drug induced state) who is breaking into a home is already at a heightened level that would keep them from feeling the pain that would be crippling to you or I sitting in from to of our computers.

Two pretty good reads there. Thank you all and thank you hapworth.

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18-4, 15-4

Agreed, but unless I'm missing something you seem to be challenging Lost Lake's post, but read in its entirety you and he are saying the same thing.

I think you're right and I think I was doing too many things at once.

My apologies Lost Lake.

I personally keep Winchester PDX 1 in one of my 870's and Hornady 00 Buck in the other. The 870 that has the PDX1 in it has 00 Buck in the side saddle and the other has slugs in it's side saddle. Any of the above mentioned shells will be devastating to an attacker. But I do not ever put bird shot in my guns for defense.

Check around the net and you should be able to find Doc Roberts' report on ammo selection someplace. The most recent edition is from October, I think. based on testing, he is a big fan of Federal #1 (Flite Control, I think) buck. Although I have a decent amount of 00 and 000, if I were getting more ammo I would seriously consider that #1 load. For LE, I would start with a good slug and pretty stay there, due to the need to deal with cars. #4 is iffy, and probably too small. I would not go smaller under any circumstance, and the #6 may make a heck of a mess, but cannot be counted on to adequately penetrate to the vitals, especially through heavy clothes.

Probably the best choice in terms of ballistics is a short AR (10" or so) with a can, and a good ammo choice from Doc Roberts' list. A short AR without a can is too unpleasant to be around; I heard one at most of 50 yards on "group therapy", and it was just too darned loud to be interested in using it inside.

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NHI, 10-8.

And one last good read: Shotgunworld.com • View topic - 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 3

Thanks guys! Likes applied.

There could be some argument made for the effect of the mass of shot contributing to the depth of penetration, i.e. if you shoot 1 projectile weighing 1.5 grains traveling at 1200 fps at an object it will not penetrate as deep as 500 of those same projectiles traveling in a group.... Basically at point blank range a single pellet will not go through a bad guy but an entire shotgun blast would...

But let's not muddy the water.

Once those pellets start spreading and ceasing to be one homogenous group, they will loose their inertia rapidly.

Who's the maker of the buck/slug combo rounds?

That's a Winchester PDX1. I was surprised at how consistently it makes that triangle with the 00 buck. I'm having a hard time seeing the point though given the size of that slug. At room range, they don't spread enough (at 15 feet, if you miss with the slug, you're likely to miss with all but one of the buck - if that). Still pretty cool, but I'm leaning toward the Federal PD132. Certainly appreciate the discussion.

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18-4, 15-4

Really? Someone breaks into your house and your concern is "damage to the woodwork"?

That sounds a bit materialistic. I'd be more concerned about cleaning up his blood stains afterwards.

I have patterned Federal 00 buck with the Flite Control wad and the only way I can describe the results is unbelievable. At 25 yards, the entire group can be covered with my hand and outstretched fingers (fired from my 20" 870 and cylinder bore choke). I think the catalog number is LE13200.

I have patterned a good bit of buckshot, factory and handloads, over the years and came to expect mediocre performance. That is no longer true. Aim carefully.

Mehhh! Blood can be mopped up off the tile floors and the throw rugs can be replaced cheaply enough. But the 100yr old tongue & groove knotty pine is worth more than some scumbags life. With 25ft the furthest possible shot inside the house , it's a 1 1/4oz load of hi-brass 2s for him!

Or Glaser Safety Slugs outta the .45!

I keep 00 buck in mine. I have a buddy who accidentally shot himself in the back of the head with a 12 gauge while bird hunting ( only he could pull that off) and lived after a few days in the hospital. Has a 2 inch wide strip from base of head to the top where he will never hair again. The birdshot, mostly due to the angle I suppose took all the skin off and fractured his skull, but that was it. None penetrated the skull.

The new Federal LE 1 Buck with flight control is also, by all tests, superb.

This man has already done the testing for you:

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

So what's the point, that if I put a slug on target, it will bring down an intruder? If I get a pattern big enough to fire inaccurately and still hit the target, it won't have enough force or penetration to bring down an intruder? I've only been shot at once with a shotgun, the goof was twenty feet from me and missed, (with #6) but blew out a left side rear window. I'm grateful he was a bad shot.

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Halfway and one more step

I have yet to have to use it. But it looks good on a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 plywood. #6 shot repacked with hot glue out of an 870 sure does make a pile of kindling quick. Just make sure you end up with the same over all weight when making them up. Can get a hole box of 25 for $15. Another $2 worth of hot glue and an hour of spare time. Nice cheap hillbilly home defense round. Several vids on youtube demonstrating how its done and what it does.

I really have never understood all the hype surrounding over-penetration blah blah blah..... I could give a rats but if it goes through the bad guy, two walls and a door.

I know, I know....what about the neighbors or others in the house.....Never once have a heard a "true" documented story where this has ever happened other than on Firearm Forum about a friend of a friend of another friend........

Guess my neighbors are in for it if my M14 over penetrates.

Train more, worry less.

Plain 'ol 00 low recoil buck, (#1 if I can find it), at inside the house distance. At outside the house distances, (20-30 yards), Federal Premium w/Flite Control, after that, slugs.

Ballistically, there are advantages to a round that's more apt to stay inside the target, shred, tumble, etc., versus make a quick open-and-close pass through.

That being said, penetration is still king, indeed...

Personally I use standard 00 buck in the tube with slugs in a separate side saddle or magazine, I prefer Saiga 12's.

Avoid trying to stack the mag tube with alternating slugs and buckshot. You will never keep track in the heat of the moment and you will always have the wrong one under the hammer.

The general rule of thumb with a shotgun is 1" of spread for every yard traveled out of a cylinder bore barrel. Now this can go up or down a little depending on the round, barrel length and the use of choke tubes.

In regards to using bird shot in the house there are a couple of things that you have to consider. Incapacitation and lethality. Now would/could a load of #6 shot stop or kill an intruder? Sure but lets say that you get a less than optimal hit or due to the intruders clothing, say a heavy leather bikers jacket, as stated it may not penetrate far enough to do either.
In household distances using the general rule I spoke of lets say the bedroom distance it 15 feet. At that distance the pattern is only going to be roughly 5 inches so any misalignment of the sights or firing from the hip may cause bad shot placement. If the intruder at this point is not incapacitated he can do a lot of damage in the time it takes for you to get off a second shot.

In regards to the over penetration issue. Shot loads like #6's while they do mean things to the body do even stranger things to solid objects. Again using the general rule of one inch of pattern per yard traveled. At the 15 foot range the pattern is still pretty tightly clustered and about 5 inches in diameter.
Upon striking a hard object. like sheetrock, the leading portion of the shot tends to break through whatever barrier it hits or causes substantial damage which allows the trailing shot to pass through the hole/damaged portion into whatever is behind it.

Just something to think about.