At 3 AM this morning I was walking into the local hospital's ER b/c my wife had just been transported w/a serious case of flu (treated & released thank goodnes) when I heard someone holler at me from a distance. I turned and could barely see a dark figure about 20' away ask me for a cigarette. After 30 years as a LEO I believe this individual was looking for an easy mark. While I am a big guy, I'm well past 60 & walk with a cane so I may look like someone who will not fight back.

My hand was already in my pocket on my 442 and I pulled it out and put it behind my leg, a trick I learned from my LEO days. I told the guy in a very stern voice I could not help him and continued my journey into the ER unacosted. Nothing more happened.

When I got inside I ran into a sergeant I know and told him what happened. They never did find the guy and I'm glad things turned out the way they did, but that 442 was a very welcome companion early this morning.

Interestingly enough the hospital had a sign posted on every entrance prohibiting firearms. I'm really glad I ignored it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

All the more reason a thug would hang out in a place like that. Glad it worked out for you. Stay safe.

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It aint rocket surgery

Hey Old Cop, I too am glad your situation turned out to be a non-incident. I often wonder why they have signs posted to dis-allow self protection if they are not able to guarantee your safety. Good for you Sir!!!!!!!!!

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

Glad you're both safe. I took my wife to the ER 3 times last year --- usually in the late evening (migraines) but we'd never get out of there before 2:00 AM. I always had my Model 38 in my jeans pocket.

Happy to hear your both ok. I didn't see a sign either LOL...

My wife is a RN in a trauma unit and they have placed it in lock down at least 200 times since I met her in 2008. If the thug doesn't meet their maker the first time, the shooter/s attempt to finish the job, especially if the news reports them as being alive.

I don't agree with the prohibited weapons signs at hospitals, these thugs have no care for my wife and her friends. Three years ago she was missed by a stray bullet from the above instance. She told me that if she were allowed a small revolver, she could have ended the fire fight and ultimately that mans life.

My recommendation is to always carry a small two shot pocket pistol if you can't carry a sub compact or full size. I do!

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US Army 1997-2003

One has to do what they have to do.

Since I feel I am a responsible CCP owner, I also feel no conflict carrying in stores with gun free signs. I prefer to feel safe rather than to rely on a store greeter or other employee taking down a BG... (note sarcasm)

Seems the hospital was screaming for a BG to try something on a potential victim. Reminds me of Chicago and their gun free zones.

Signs can't stop acts of violence... they invite it...

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Doug;}
RSO from WA State

I'd think a former cop would know better than to pull a gun on someone for only asking for a cigarette. You've never had someone ask for something before? Where was the threat of death or bodily harm?

Had that been me I think I'd consider filing aggravated assault charges.

You might want to read the original post again. No one saw the weapon, no harm, no foul.

I wasn't there so I don't know the specifics of the threat he detected, but the fact that he's an old cop - and not a dead cop - makes me think his 6th sense is probably well developed.

I'm going to file "didn't read closely enough" charges.

Under the circumstances, you'd be right if Old cop had brandished; he did not, as clearly stated.

Don't know if you've spent much time around E.R.s -- always some bad customers either in them or lurking nearby, especially at night.

I'd've done the same.

Well done, sir. Thanks for sharing your story and how you handled it. Glad it ended well.

Good for you. And it's not always the humanoid types. Two summers ago, my wife and I were out for a walk ( we live in a rural area and I always carry either a 637 or .380 when we go for long walks)and were approached in mid-day by a really mangey, drooling coyote. I shot him at about 25 feet and he ran off. Later my neighbor killed it, and it was suspected of being rabid.

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John

Based on that theory, it's okay if I rob a bank and get away with it if no one got harmed and no one saw my weapon. I think teh FBI maight have a different view of that.

In FL, a gun "in hand" is in use. He therefore "used" a firearm against an unverified/unconfirmed threat. I see a lot of things I think are suspicious, but I don't pull out a gun every time I do. He drew his weapon...

In my profession (minister) I sadly spend more time than I'd like to in hospitals and ER's. Since obtaining my CHP a couple of months ago I always carry when visiting hospitals.

Old Cop, you were wise to carry and even wiser to be suspicious. I spent 14 weeks serving as a full-time intern chaplain at a large hospital in a suburb of Los Angeles...I've seen this kind of thing many times. There were actually 3 or 4 people who would hang out at the ER entrance at different times of the evening to beg for money. A couple of times someone someone leaving the ER got mugged. It got so bad the hospital had to place a security guard outside the door to run the beggars off and keep any potential muggers at bay.

Apologies, but that's false logic. No one is stipulating that doing no harm and not getting caught would legitimize bank robbery or anything like it. That's extreme in the absurd.

Again, brandishing -- menacing with a weapon, holstered or in hand -- if there is no reasonable threat, is an offense and rightly so. OP didn't brandish.

Strictly speaking, readying your weapon out of view is quite different from drawing it, which implies in view and aimed.

SMSgt
Are you serious right now?? Or just busting chops? WELL past 60 and walking with a cane, approached by a man asking for a cigarette at 0300?? . I would say he was totally justified
1SG

442/642/40 are some of the best cc guns going.

I agree ABSOLUTELY! Anywhere inside of 21 ft is the "Kill Zone". In this zone the bad guy can close the distance & stab/assault you BEFORE one can draw from concealment and shoot said bad guy. SMSgt, look up "Tueller Drill"!

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

To the person who suggested that I brandished (my gun was completely hidden) and overreacted I can only say I relied on my 30 yrs LEO experience. The hospital is in a bad part of town and I was completely isolated and vunerable. Normally I come to the aid of anyone asking for help but those words are almost always a preamble to a street robbery (part of my career was spent as a robbery Det.).

My purpose for posting was simply share what happened and to encourage members to carry responsibly, not to do what I did. My handicap leaves me unable to run so I simply prepared to defend myself if I could not get to the building safely. As has been suggested this kind of activity has been a problem in and around the ER here.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I think everyone is being overly polite to you.

So I will say it.

You are really making a fool of yourself criticizing a cop who has made it to retirement age.

Just think of what he has seen in all of those years. And hiding it behind his leg is no more threatening nor brandishing than having his hand on it in his jacket pocket because in both cases it was out of sight.

I spent 28+ years in the NYPD. You are ABSOLUTELY correct and so was OldCop. He did exactly what his training conditioned him to do. That's how Young cops get to be Old cops!

Well done, Old cop!!

To the OP, GOOD for you!! Cigarettes are bad for one's health. Asking somebody for one at 3:00 a.m. from the shadows is also bad for one's health. Your quick thinking probably saved you from a trip to the ER.

I had a similar experience about four summers ago in the mountains. Four fine examples of redneck white trash asked me for a cigarette and then a match. They were looking for trouble, and found it. It worked out just fine, like your incident did.

I hope your wife is doing well too.

This is another example of political correctness going beyond reason. Old Cop was sharing an experience that I for one think is a smart way to help me live beyond my 72 years of age. I will keep this in mind if ever in a similar situation. The smoker didn't know Old Cop was armed and Old Cop was in a better position to defend himself. I have a carry permit to protect myself and if I don't take it out and flash it, I don't see how anyone is harmed or even inconvenienced. Old Cop did the right thing and if he didn't post the event here no one would ever know it happened. How is that against the law?

Unbelievable! 99 out of 100 muggers start a conversation with the victim in order to close the distance and better size them up. Most ask for something to get the victim to relax and let their guard down, and yes, most of the time they prey on the elderly. Actually, what happened at the hospital is EXACTLY WHY WE CARRY! Its called self defense, protection of ourself and our loved ones. Good job Old Cop. SMSGT, get a life!

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Dennis
He's got a gun!

I am pretty sure SMSgt, Just posted that to get a response (Trolling). He has only responded one time to the 12 replies to his obsurd reply to OLDCOP.

Im overly surprised at the negativity from this thread. I havent been on here long enough to know any of you, but from Old Cops posts he seems like he is well educated and trained in safety and experienced as well. It truly is a shame but these days one cant be to careful. I will help anybody I can at any time, but asking me for a cigarette doesnt make me feel obliged to do a good deed. My town is maybe 8 miles, and a far cry from 10,000 people in population. My dad has had a guy try to rob his store twice while at work, one incident involved a guy asking for money for an alternator so he could get his family home. Dad took time out of working to go fix the car and buy his alternator rather than giving him money but the guy ran off before he could make it back from the shop. One of his employees was asked for some change for the drink machine at 4am after his shift. He reached into his pocket and was beaten nearly to death and robbed. Protecting your own life, is also protecting your families lives.

Old cop, you done good and I applaud you. I just bet there have been similar incidents that many on the forum could relate. No shots fired. No firearm brandished, but the presence of a weapon gave you the peace of mind and reassurance you needed to act in a reasonable, authoritative manner.

I also think it needs to be shouted from the rooftop that you had a 442, a lowly j-frame with "only" five shots with which to protect yourself. I have tried to carry 1911s, K-frames, N-frames, Browning HPs, and several others. The only thing I will be sure I have every time is a j-frame. Sometimes I even carry two of them. Somebody needs to erect a monument somewhere to the lowly j-frame. It has provided peace of mind for a lot of us for a lot of years.

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Georgia On My Mind

Old Cop: You did EXACTLY what your years of training and instincts told you. You saved yourself, and prevented some scroat from employing his nefarious schemes. While I am certain that you would have shot (and killed) this fool, i'm sure you were grateful that it wasn't required.

To hell with the "gun free zone." (It lets the criminally inclined know that they have an "open season" declared on the people seen as easy prey.

Scott

There have been a couple of references on this thread about hospitals being gun free zones.

I know what the law is for the rest of us, but wouldn't a retired LEO with a carry permit be an exception the the law that bans weapons in hospitals?

It really is a dumb law anyway. As you know, lots of really bad people inside as well as outside. Nut cases, felons, wife beaters, stalkers, etc.

I never have understood why it is my right to keep from being killed in only certain places, but a drunk who wants to kill me and whom I can stop by whatever means necessary on the street, has a license to kill me in a hospital or in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

20 feet? You must smoke 100s.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I suspect an old cop knows just fine how and when to use a J frame. I sure ain't going to second guess what happened.

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Centennial Every Day

glad the misses is ok. and it turned out well.

I think that he needs to read the post about street robberies...Old Cop was right on the money. Decent and polite folks don't beg for cigarettes in the parking lot at 3am.

Here is the street robbery post for those that missed it awhile back Street robberies and you - The Basics - Page 1 - AR15.COM

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On the Oak Savannah

That is a fine read you linked, plenty of food for thought -- thank you.

Nope, not a troller. I just have reservations about someone drawing a firearm without provocation, only suspicion. That guy who asked for the cigarette has the same legal right to be there as the ex-cop who draw his firearm as a precaution. Is this what we've come to, we draw a gun anytime someone asks us for something or approaches us? And all of you find that acceptable? Really?

Were it any of us, and someone saw us do that, do you not think a MWAG call might be made? I'm all for being prepared "to" draw. Maybe the ex-cop was lucky that no one noticed him remove the gun and hide it behind his leg.

So throw all the flame you wish, but I'm a bit leery of those who instinctively "draw" a firearm, seen or unseen, at anything they perceive as a "possible" threat. As an ex-leo he may have been able to talk his way out of it had it been reported, but I don't think the common permit carrier would have, not without more substantial indication of a threat to life beyond the a request for a cigarette or some change for a cup of coffee.

I'll stand firm behind my principle of drawing only when threatened with harm and not before. I don't need jail time for what I "thought" might happen.

Thanks for the story OldCop, and the lesson that comes with it.

I am the LEAST street-wise person in the world. I am trying to sharpen my skills though.

I have been approached by miscreants asking for cigarettes many times, in many poor locations, including just outside an ER in downtown Chicago. I was never carrying a gun, but by some grace of God I was never attacked. I've even had a couple of them 'surround' me (as well as two guys can do such a thing) and I got the heck out of there! Lucky for me I'm big, and my martial arts training taught me to keep distance and be ready and aware.

You know you did the right thing, in fact all but one of us knows you did the right thing. Now that I carry a weapon my stance when approached is holding one hand up instead of two like I used to do... The other is on my side arm.

Sorry to get off track and ramble on, I just wanted to say Thank You for your story and Thank You for your service to protect us all !

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Kirk / Spock 2020

SMSgt: No offense taken sir. I fully respect your right to disagree, hope you stay safe and do not become a statistic.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I can legally draw my weapon when I feel threatened.

This man's 30 years of experience has taught him when he is in danger.

Let's use some common sense!

You need to LEARN from this not try to pretend you know something better...

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Of course the guy had the right to be there at 3:00 AM.

He also had the right to ask for a cigarette.

Are you so naive that you do not know that the successful con man or street robber always starts off his initial contact with something that is totally legal and innocent in appearance?

The guy who is waving a 3 ft. long sword advancing on you from 100 ft. away does not get very far.

Survivors are those that are able to see early in the contact that all is not what it appears to be.

Now back to the case in hand. The suspected BG had the right to be in the parking lot.

OK.

The suspected BG had the right to ask for a cigarette.

OK.

Now tell me something.

If you needed a smoke, would you go to a hospital parking lot on a cold winter night, at 3:00 AM just hoping someone who smokes and has a pack on him will show up before you freeze your *** off?

How many non-smokers, since smoking has become the thing not to do, would you have to process before you hit the right combination of a smoker with some on him?

Falling for that line is as dumb as falling for the "My car broke down, can I use your phone" knock on your front door.

When almost every kid in grade school has a cell, the welfare people hand out free phones, etc., no one needs to knock on your door on a dark night asking to use your phone.

Yet there are people, and I suspect you are one, that will invite them in to use your phone.

Asking for a cig at 3:00 AM in an isolated area is the same thing.

I have a good story that happened on a very dark night almost 40 years ago in which I dragged a guy about half a mile with his arm clamped in my truck window, and it all started with a conversation that he had the right to initiate in a place he had a right to be.

Had I not caught on to the fact that there was another guy standing at the rear of my truck, I might not be here today.

A good story and one day I will take the time to write it down.

Wow! If I drew my pistol for every panhandler I’d be a busy man.

I never understood the pistol out and behind your leg thing either.
I was trained to keep the muzzle between me and the threat.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

Spoken like someone who has never faced the business end of a gun or survived a near-miss by a knife wielding moron outside of combat (given your screen name I assume you may have served in combat). I have experienced both as a civilian (never been a LEO), and thank God I survived. I am more than a little careful about strangers asking me for anything let alone at 0300 in an isolated location.

Yes, you are right...the guy asking for a smoke has the right to be there. However, his right to be there has no bearing on the situation or what Old Cop did. It has nothing to do with his rights...it has everything to do with the right of a potential victim to be proactive and protect himself. The weapon wasn't brandished...Old Cop didn't point the weapon at the stranger...he simply had it ready to go IF the need arose. Thankfully it didn't.

SMSgt, you are obviously entitled to your opinion and I hope you stay vigilant and safe...but don't give a person with 30+ years of LE experience a hard time.

In the real world a person should see a threat in someone wanting to get close to you when it doesn't seem normal. Wanting a cigarette or asking directions is the oldest trick in the book. Two wanting to get close to one person or one person wanting to get close to an old man is "disparity of force" and should be viewed as a threat. Larry

The OP's Spidey Senses started to tingle. Anybody who is saying he acted incorrectly is saying you should ignore your gut feelings. That doesn't do much for survival.

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- The Federalist #46 -

Well, I'll stand with those who think that when something doesn't feel quite right it's prudent to prepare for the worst, and a quote from, I believe, Mas Ayoob who once wrote that if you wait until you see the other guy's gun you'll likely see what comes out of it before you can react.

Without threatening or brandishing it is quite possible if the guy was up to no good that his feral instincts picked up on the OP's body language that said, "go find an easier victim".

And unless there was cop standing there to render a judgement call on the act constituting an offense there was no danger of 'jail time'; and if there had have been a cop there it would have negated the need for the action. I hope that with your view you're never put in situation that can go against you in a heartbeat since you'll be at the disadvantage.

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Qui plantavit curabit

I have answered a knock at my door in rural Georgia in the wee-wee hours on several occasions with a revolver in my hand, down by my leg, my body between me and the door. No need for the door-knocker to know I was armed unless I needed to let him know, and no need to give him the opportunity to rush me and grab my gun arm.

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Georgia On My Mind

Old cop; you Sir are a Class Act!

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

There is a world of difference of what one can do in a private residence vs a public place. Entirely different statutes apply for different settings.

For all you naysayers, I never said the OP should be arrested, only questioned his drawing a gun because someone asked for a cigarette. The perception of threat is what a "reasonable man" perceives; not you, not me, not the OP, but the those twelve "reasonable persons" that may be on a jury.

The point is not whether he was seen doing so, the no harm/no foul is irrelevent. Whether he "needed" to draw is a question that cannot be answered. His perception, base on his experience and training, compelled him to react as though he were still on the force, still making warrrant arests, etc.

What he felt was proper, what he may or may not have done while on the force, may very well put the common citizen who does the same thing in jail for aggravated assault.

I'm glad things worked out well for the OP. It may have worked out just as well with a holstered firearm--or no firearm at all, but that is not the basis of my original post.