After reading other thread on this topic I decided that rather than hijack another thread I'd put this up on it's own.

I wrote this up on another site after it happened and it went south over racial issues. I have been reluctant to post up anything further about it but I've been around this place now for just a little while and it seems that everyone in here is mature enough and has enough respect for the rules that there wouldn't be any problems.

Just let me stress that even though the other guy in this event was a black man that the events that unfolded and the actions we both took were not motivated by racial issues. I can guarantee y'all that I certainly had none and I didn't see even the slightest sign that the other guy did either. Both of us assessed the situation and made rational decisions using good judgement. Catastrophe was there by averted.

I ask that y'all keep your responses away from racial issues and comments and I request that if it does happen that the mods pull this entire thread. I only post it because I feel that it is interesting and that it demonstrates that the term "cool heads prevail" has some merit.

It was in the spring about 3 years ago when I was 65 years old. I was pretty involved in photography during that time and had decided to do a "survey" of some of the old abandoned houses along some of the rural roads in Texas. My title for this project was "This Old House" and was to include old abandoned houses, out-houses, churches and barns.

Although Hwy 6 between Houston and Waco has been very recently upgraded and widened it is still rife with many abandoned old structures like I was interested in. I set out that morning with fresh batteries and a new memory card in my digital camera and was making my way north stopping at every opportunity to capture another example of my subject.

I was on a stretch of the highway where the road bed was elevated about 7 or 8 feet above the land in that area. Off to my right I saw an old house that was long abandoned and leaning drastically to one side, looking like it was ready to blow away with the next good wind. I pulled over and got my camera ready and got out of my truck.

I was wearing my Glock 36, a compact .45auto and two spare mags OWB with a loose shirt not tucked in. I'm always very discreet when I carry and I've never been "made" in over 10 years of carrying every day. Sometimes I carry other calibers or other kinds of guns but when I'm on the road I always carry a .45.

I walked around the back of the truck and down the embankment and stopped at the 5 strand barbed wire fence and began taking pictures of the very interesting old house. When I had what I wanted I went back up to the truck and I was sitting on the tail gate reviewing the pictures I'd just taken when I see this guy come scrambling up the embankment. He appeared to be is a great hurry.

I jumped down off the tail gate and moved to the side of my truck. When he got to the top of the embankment he asked me in a somewhat heated voice what I was doing. He continued to approach me and I asked him in as calm a voice as I cold manage, not to come any closer. He stopped and wanted to know what I was doing on his property. I was very nervous and more than a little afraid. I am 5'5" tall and weigh 150 pounds. At the time I was 65 years old. I estimated him to be 6'2" to 6'3" and 220 to 230 pound. 30 to 35 years old. Not that it was a factor he was a black man.

It wasn't a factor for me but I wasn't immediately sure if it was for him or not. As we talked I determined that it was not. When I asked him not to come any closer I reflexively moved my right hand into position to draw if it became necessary. His eyes immediately dropped to my right hip. I was not printing but he may have been able to tell now that he was thinking about it that I was armed. He stopped.

I explained what I was doing and that I never went inside the fence. I never went on his property. He seemed to be thinking that over. He was clean shaven with a neat haircut and dressed in work clothes. He was dirty but explained that he was working on a tractor. He had on a blue T-shirt with a white police badge decal over the right breast.

I nodded my head in acknowledgement but I told him that that was not proper ID. He nodded but did not offer to show me anything further. If I had to guess I'd guess that he actually was an off duty police officer. His appearance, calm professional kind of behavior seemed to indicate to me that he was.

I held my camera out and set it down on the tail gate and took a few steps backward. I invited him to examine my camera and told him how to toggle through all the pics that I'd been taking. He stood there for what seemed at the time like a very long moment. I could see the decision making process going on in his eyes. I guess he decided to accept my story and with out another word he turned around and went back down the way he'd come up and disappeared.

I sat in my truck for 15 minutes trying to calm down and reassessing the events that had just happened. If either one of us had lost our cool it would have been awful. But we gave each other a chance and it worked out.

In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.

Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. The law makes provision for disparity in size and physical condition. Given the facts that he was twice my size and half my age, and the fact that my hands are so effected by arthritis as to render me unable to fight I would have been justified to pull and fire even if he had no weapon. I could not afford to let a guy that big and strong hit me in the head. It could easily be fatal or at least leave me permanently impaired. I had made the decision and the commitment to pull and fire if he hadn't stopped when and where he did. I was totally focused.

As a Vietnam vet I know what it's like to exchange gunfire with another human being. I've never been shot but I have seen the results up close and personal of the after effects of a fire fight. The instructors in CHL classes are not telling Noah about the flood in my case when they tell you how you will feel later if you have to shoot. Believe me....There are no mysteries for me in this. I have no desire to shoot ANYone for ANY reason. I don't think it'd be cool or make me tough or any of the movie guff that is so prevalent. I'd never shoot someone over a tv or a vehicle, that's what insurance of for. Only to save my life of the life of another.

Every time I think about this situation I am thankful that everyone involved kept their cool. I hope that this story will impress at least one person and help them to remain calm and focused in a potentially bad situation. When it happens to you it will be too late to have to figure out what to do.

Thanks for sharing a pratical story that we can all apply to our own everyday life. Im glad it all worked out for you.

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It aint rocket surgery

In Detroit, that's pretty much the way it usually goes too. It can get dicey at times.
I don't know the Texas area your referring to but Detroit Michigan has it's own culture to it. Not a good one either.
I personally think he was a bit on the aggressive side too, there's better ways to ask what someone is doing. I'm glad it worked out for the best.

in large part, private property rights are greatly respected in the west, including Texas.

his reaction to your 'invasion' or 'trespassing' is understandable. folks don't like strangers (including govt officials) stopping by unannounced taking pictures of their stuff.

may want to rethink this whole idea of taking pictures of other's places without permission.

This is a most excellent point. It would certainly have saved me some tense moments. Now I can see the wisdom of this but at the time I really didn't see anything wrong with shooting from the side of the road.

Live and learn, eh?

perhaps others reading this will learn something.

overall, i'd say you are lucky he didn't put a hole in your tires and leave you to fend for yourself. most trucks only carry one spare.

That's the hope. And yes I felt quite lucky to get out of that situation none the worse for wear. I can see where I brought it all on by my careless actions.

I've heard it said that we mustn't judge a man harshly for the mistakes he makes.....just for the ones he REPEATS.

I'm going to go against the grain here, but if I can see it from the road, I can take a picture of it. As long as you don't commit trespass, you haven't done anything wrong. I would, however, be a lot more conservative in my opinion if the dwelling was occupied. I would introduce myself and get permission.

I also think the gentleman was too aggressive. I'm glad it worked out.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

The guy may have been tired of people ripping off his property and have been willing to stop an theft before it started. Glad it worked out for both of you with no need for lead flying.

The structure I was photographing was uninhabited and abandoned. Windows all broken out an years gone. Roof gone in places. About ready to collapse. What I couldn't see from my vantage point was the NEW HOUSE that the residents of the old one had built and moved into. It was a nice house with a new barn and everything, and it was on the same property but I was unable to see it because it was hidden by a stand of trees.

The property owner saw me and I had no idea there was anyone or any other structure on the property or in the area. He 'splained it to me though. My mistake may have been innocent but it WAS my mistake and I won't be making it again any time soon I don't reckon.

A little bit of a hijack here but it's my thread....

Do yourself a favor and check out the McClennan County courthouse in Waco, inside and out. Lots and lots of history there!

Interesting story. I'm glad it turned out well and that cool heads prevailed.

I don't live close enough to any roads for me to be able to relate 100%. If someone were in a position to be taking pictures of my home, they'd be trespassing and I'd be ticked.

If I lived next to a road and someone was standing at my fence taking pictures of my house, I'd be one unhappy camper.

Now, I HAVE done something similar. A few years back I was real big into photography. Once while on leave I drove around taking pictures of the area. Mostly farms. I wanted some pictures of home to take with me over to the sandbox.

Whenever possible / applicable I'd knock on the door, introduce myself, and explain what I was doing. Every single person gave me permission to take pictures. Most of them were flattered that someone was interested enough in their home / barn / farm etc.

A few of them had one request: that I send them copies of the shots I took of their place.

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- The Federalist #46 -

The thread you mentioned might have been mine from a couple of days ago, "Glad I Was Packing My 442." You were wise to use your age and experience to settle this peacefully and you are to be congratulated on your calm under the circumstances. Using deadly force is always to be an absolute last resort, I had to use it during my LEO career and cannot recommend the exprience to anyone.

Thank you for taking the time to share this, my hope is others will learn from it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Since the guy never really identified himself you dont really know who he was or if what he said was true. Maybe he was up to something and thought you caught it on camera. His actions lean more that way. I take pictures of houses all the time as a part of my business and there is no law against taking pictures from the road. Many people dont know that though and a "heads up" is not a bad idea.

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It aint rocket surgery

This is a very interesting take on the situation. I never thought of it this way. I guess we'll never know....

If you was carrying a metal detector you would have got an earful. A claw hammer might be worse?

Lots of rural people get real tired of people going through their old buildings to collect antique bottles or whatever. Some people even take the old wood to refinish into some old looking bookshelf or whatever, or to sell at flea markets.

This guy checked you out, expecting an argument no doubt. He probably wanted to get close enough to get your vehicles license number and see if anything of his, or his neighbors, was in the back of your truck. And you scared him with the 20 foot thing and hand motion. Next time he tries to get a license number for himself and his neighbors he might be packing a pistol and maybe both will do the hand motion at the same time? That is when your jaws get tight and you hear your teeth squeaking. Think how bad you would feel if he drew and you shot him - and found out he had been burglarized numerous times.

Hopefully you were not accidentally standing in front of your license plate they way teenagers do when caught vandalizing. Okay, I read is again any you stepped to one side of truck with tailgate down - good he could see that the truck was empty.

Quite a few years ago a farmer in Iowa got so tired of trespassers he rigged a shotgun inside aimed at the doorway. His wife made him lower the barrel to leg level. It was quite a lawsuit that cost him his farm.

All I am trying to say is that you do not know what has been going on in that area, and how cranked up people can get when someone stops by their old building that has been repeatedly burglarized. First he rings his neighbors phone to say another guy in a pickup has stopped by his old house.

(For the sake of discussion I am taking the other side - have a good day my friend - backing up a few steps first, sounds better in court - stay safe - stay on pavement. As my father would say, "there is such a thing as being dead right". An old policeman once said "there are worse things than getting shot").

So you govern your life with whether you come in contact with someone who might take offense to your doing something perfectly legal and non-threatening? (Remember, this is just for fun )

Confronting someone in an aggressive manner is a bad idea no matter how bad a day your having. I under stand the frustration, I'm a landowner and a photographer. I have dealt with trespassers, and I've been questioned as to what I'm doing with a camera. ( I love rock houses)

I'm my opinion, the op did absolutely nothing wrong.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Go back and read it again. He is carrying extra magazines in broad daylight drive in the country. In 4 and 5 paragraphs from the end he says:
Quote -
In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.

Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. (let me say un-quote here)

Sounds to me he thinks he can get away with shooting a policeman in front of the policeman's property. Our court and jury system is not geared for this logic.
If he goes up that road again - and stops in front of old houses again - after his hand motion to belt - he will likely run into the farmers version of neighborhood watch. The person confronting him next time will be friedly, will not be alone and his backup will be carrying a rifle, not pointed at him. And they will legaly look inside his truck through windows without entering it. Everyone is free to walk on the road, it works both ways.

All he needs to do is get a longer lens on his camera and ask people first when possible. They will tell him how others feel.

He should not expect the farmer to have seen him leave his truck. Assume the farmer saw him after he was stopped and after he had gone down by the fence. In which case the farmer did not know if he had been past the fence. The farmer did everything right and he did everything wrong.

And if race was not an issue why bring it up?

(Lets do a gentle debate - the information seems needed)

In the last 30 years, I have been threatened by a kid who said he had a knife, a guy whom I think wanted to carjack me, and two guys who wanted to mug me for my money. All three times I was carrying a pistol or revolver. Two out of three times (Kid with knife and carjacker) were resolved without violence. The two guys who wanted to mug me got beat up. To their credit - one did get a punch in on me - and to prove what an idiot I was, it was in a city which does NOT allow folks to carry handguns.

All three times I had been surprised because my situational awareness was not where it ought to be, and I looked like a "mark". All three times could have been avoided if I had simply been paying attention.

My point is that never did I feel the need to go for my gun, because I immediately felt that I was at least partially culpable for getting myself into this situation. Most would-be altercations in life can be resolved with talking in a cool-headed manner. If that fails, I have my karate training. The gun is last on my list of tools.

That's my story and I want to make it clear to the OP that I am not making any judgments as to how he reacted. I'm glad it turned out that neither one of you got hurt, and I'm glad that you learned something from it. The day you stop learning, you're no good to anyone.

What I do want is more civility in our society. I talk to strangers. I like talking to people. Every time I do, they smile. I'm not talking trading recipes or political dogma, I'm referring to just saying "Hi" to folks and maybe treating them like fellow brothers and sisters, rather than people who are in your way, getting your saturated fat-laden belly bomber or pricey over-roasted yuppie coffee in the morning.

Do you remember after September 11th that strangers would talk to you at the gas pump? It's because we all banded together as Americans. We had a black eye, and they realized that we were in this together.

Now it's back to people flipping you off, or talking on their cell phones in the checkout line and not even acknowledging that the cashier is another human being.

Are you kidding me? Do we have to suffer another terrorist attack to start acting civilly, again?

Hello Walkin’ Jack
You sound like an honest man and a fellow handgun person. I really want to support you but you really need to write this again with no mention of race.
Then I will explain that barb wire fences are put where it is easy to drive the truck full of fence posts and wire, or where you want to contain the cows.
A real legal person wanting to extend boundaries checks at city hall for the road easement width. From center line of road it is half that. (yes I have had loud debates with apartment dwellers that want their dog to relieve their bowels in my yard).

(Second paragraph)
“it went south over racial issues”

(Third Paragraph)
“other guy in this event was a black man”
“not motivated by racial issues”

(4 th paragraph)
“from racial issues”

(tenth paragraph)
“Not that it was a factor he was a black man”.

(Something about this Paragraph)
It wasn't a factor for me but I wasn't immediately sure if it was for him or not. As we talked I determined that it was not. When I asked him not to come any closer I reflexively moved my right hand into position to draw if it became necessary. His eyes immediately dropped to my right hip. I was not printing but he may have been able to tell now that he was thinking about it that I was armed. He stopped.

Delos, I never felt that I could "get away with" shooting a policeman or anyone else. I was gravely concerned for my safety as I stated because of the disparity in our ages our size and our physical condition. He could have easily killed me with one punch. My only interest here was to survive.

I also stated that the the racial issue got out of hand on another site. I asked that it not be referenced in y'alls responses. It turned out not to play a part in the situation but I included it in the post because it may have been a concern to each of us until we saw that it was not an issue.

I did learn my lesson here and have not and will not repeat my mistake.

Thanks Jack, sorry if I in any way sounded pushy.

Absolutely no problem Delos. It is a complicated story with a lot of little details that had an impact on the over all outcome. It can be hard to always express everything properly on the internet. I'm happy to explain anything that may have caused confusion or misunderstanding.

I'm baaack!

Delos, you seem to give all the credit for reasonable thought to the other guy, and his "neighborhood watch". And we all know how succesful armed neighborhood watches have been. In the ops scenario, he did not cross the fence. While he may have crossed the property line, we do not know this.

I too carry extra magazines. I'm not sure what this has to do with it. I also adhere to the 21' rule. (and so does anyone aggressively approaching me)

As far as shooting a policeman in front of his own property, I'd shoot the Pope if he attacked me. I do not have to let anyone attack me.

While the OP mentioned the race of the individual, I was keeping my responses purely raceless.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Again some of you are assuming this guy was legit. His actions and silence indicate that things werent what they appeared.

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It aint rocket surgery

I'm just happy that cooler heads Prevailed and no one was hurt. From the O/P’s description it does sound as if the homeowner (?) was overly aggressive during the start of their spat. I would like to believe if the homeowner had approached the O/P and simply asked “may I help you?” which translates to what the hell are you doing the O/P would not have a story to tell.

I learned years ago to whenever you can start soft and work my way up to hard as needed. Cause you can't start hard and back down from there.

One thing I can tell you about folks like myself who raise livestock or farm in Central Texas is that anyone snooping around raises suspicions. We don’t know who you are and if you are shooting with a camera we don’t know where those photos will end up. We’ve had cattle rustled, equipment stolen and property vandalized among other things. I know of one fella who had bails of hay stolen out of the field last fall.

Out here it’s always best, and safest, to ask permission first.

Lets do some of it again. A recreational photographer would probably not know if he is in a high crime area. Actually I am the one trying to explain why someone might rush toward him a little bit faster than normal, if he is near an abandoned building. The sheriff or dispatcher always asks if the caller if he got a license number. When any farmer or anyone else has had burglary or vandalism and has frequently rushed out to get a license number, usually the vehicle drives away before he gets close enough to read the plate. Then they try harder, usually calling a neighbor down the road, depending on cattle or property loses. He might have occasionally seen a car come up behind him, slow to his speed, then speed on by. All they wanted was the plate number for the sheriff. If the plate was that of a parolee he will get a visit looking for stolen items. If the farmer checks and anything is missing the vehicle owner will get a visit.

I have been in the business of protecting property or people for a long time.

At various times in my life I have been the person rushing to get a license number, description, or any look at what is being loaded in a vehicle.

You can “forget” the stuff about “within 20 feet from a person they can rush you” with a knife before you can draw. If the person with the gun is that slow they better get something else faster. Trainers just want you to practice.

Maybe twice in a deep dark night I had a small handgun that was already in my hand. I also have done numerous other common tricks not appropriate to mention here.

So let me be the first to say “take evasive action”. A farmer rushing toward you in broad daylight will not often attack you. A police or security person will not shoot you in the back.

If you are in your vehicle and someone is breaking your window then shoot or drive.

If the photographer was to brandish a gun in that alleged 20 feet, that he may think he “might” be in danger, I know people who are faster than he can imagine, and he just gave them a reason to shoot. Stepping quickly toward a person is not against the law.

I do not know anyone who pulls a knife from 20 feet away. They wait until they are in arms length. Again “stand your ground laws” sound nice, and are legal. Politely take evasive action and live longer, unless you’re a police person. Leave confrontations to the police if you can. They have all those night sticks, stun guns and pepper spray on their belts for a reason.

On your own property - do what you must do, none of my friends or ex-employees ever bothered someone on their own turf.

When called, Police show up at your house in uniform for a reason.

Most of what you say, I completely agree with.

However, and their always seems to be a however, using the term "farmer" or "rancher" means nothing unless I know you. I understand that you and your friends have had bad experiences with trepassers. But that then governs all strangers you meet? This is still the United States of America. I can (and will) travel freely on the roads. If my truck passes your house and I stop and take a picture of a tree, you can feel free to come up and ask me what I'm doing. I'll be happy to tell you, and show you on my digital camera. Coming up on me in an aggressive manner would not be good.

Making the assumption that you are the fastest, best trained cowboy on the range could be a fatal mistake.

Civility is always the best policy.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

So you are saying - a few sentences up:
"Comming up on me in an aggressive manner would not be good".

And again in his 4th and 5th paragraphs from bottom the OP says:
"In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.
Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. The law makes provision for disparity in size and physical condition."
(End of Quote)

So now I ask you. The trainer says not to let anyone get closer than 21 feet. So are you and he saying you can shoot someone who gets closer than 21 feet.

Seriously, Trainers say things without saying the next step. What is the next step if he comes closer than 21 feet.

Read again what he said and what you said. You may end up in prison some day or you may cause someone else to end up in court sounding really bad, and end up in prison. Firearms trainers are not lawyers.

You cannot even point a gun at someone because you think he is bigger and getting too close.

I say take evasive action. So lets continue down that road. If you take evasive action and he speeds up you are getting on firmer ground but still not authorized to shoot.

If he grabs you or strikes you the court will look closer. Remember lawyers will be telling a jury of 12 how the law reads. They would like to hear that he said he was going to kill you and that he had the means to do that. Again not the real world that you and I know.

Do not put yourself in a situation where you were tresspassing and now you are accused of murder.

You have changed what your situation would be where you have yourself only on the road. That was not the original post.

Same thing when it comes to shooting a person because a trainer said you are in danger if someone is within 21 feet.

Lets pick a senario and stick with it. The broad statement trainers use is wrong. Why say 21 feet if you cannot do anything until arms reach? Read again what he said and you decide it he is not understanding his situation. Read again what I put in Bold.

Not to pick but if race was not a factor why mention it ?

I do not think if it turned out to be an unarmed police officer and you shot him for walking up to you that it would be just fine

If your that frightened of people you should not go snooping around THERE property

First off, retreating or evading is not an option, at least for me. I don't know about the OP.

You seem to be questioning the 21' rule, which is actually called the Tueller Drill. It has been an accepted method of deciding threat level since the mid 80's. Any aggressor inside 21' can get to you before you can draw your weapon from your holster. It's been taught in law enforcement since at least then. It's kind of like a "go, no go" gauge.

I understand you are looking at this as a property owner putting up with pesky trespassers. I'm looking at it as I'm peacefully going about my business, breaking no laws and threatening no one. All of a sudden, someone appears who I do not know and have never seen before. He is aggressively approaching me. I'm on the roadway and have with me tens of thousands of dollars worth of photographic equipment. I tell him to stop. He continues towards me. He has had his only warning and chose to continue attacking me. He would get shot.

In my state, I have no duty to retreat. I don't have to let them hit me, push me or draw first. Actions have consequences.

The scenario by the OP was that he was at his truck on the road when the confrontation began. He had walked down to the old house, but had not crossed any fences. Am I misunderstanding?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Thank you. I feel so alone here I was getting worried. No one has yet focused on his Stab, cut, assault words. An assault is swinging at someone and missing. If it hits it is battery. Either way it must be really serious to warrant shooting someone. Someone pokes a finger on your chest you cannot shoot them.
He is remembering wrong or his trainer was not very good at making his point.
In the late 1980's when a trainer first mentioned this (30 feet back then) he was only warning people to practice. He was not claiming there was any legal value to knowing that. (He was selling his martial arts class).

Your not alone. We just have two different views because we have obviously been on each side of this. Conversations like this help in gaining perspective. I've always been very cautious when out photoing, being very careful to not include children or private property without permission. I even carry cards to fill out granting permission. I can clearly see and feel the angst of the OP in this situation.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

You are changing everything in order to win a discussion. First you mention what police are taught.
Then you presume what the situation would be for you.

You say in your state you have no duty to retreat and I agree. But he went to great length to say how unhealthy he is and used it to justify possibly shooting an approaching person.

Then you focus on him being by his truck when the confrontation began.
He wrote at least a paragraph about that mentioning the star on the property owners shirt and not saying what the property owner said but did say what his reply was. I will go back over it if you really want. (Okay he said he was fixing a tractor and I assumed he was the owner not renter or helper). We can do all this again if you promise to stick to what he said.

I am trying really hard to have people understand their surroundings. He is in his own world thinking of his presumed legal rights, and he has been taught wrong. He is not thinking of the property owners rights or possible past problems. In many areas old buildings are being looted and practically torn down for antique anything.
The metal detector crowd goes through.
The antique bottle and shop parts people go through.
The Antique wood people go through.
Some times they use a crowbar to get in and it must be repaired or the next person thinks it is wide open so must be fair game.

Sorry, I just read this post. Yes we can feel the "angst" of the OP but if he is wrong it will not help him to agree.
Read his post a couple of times and he is screaming me me and will lose bad bad in any court. Any jury will listen really close to the property owner. If he is dead the jury will look real close at his widow and children, and listen to all the problems they have had. Again the fence is not necessarily on the property line, more likely just to confine animals.
Police would not have stun guns, batons, and pepper spray if all they had to do was shoot anyone they think is dangerous who is within 21 feet. They have all the less than lethal weapons because they have lost lawsuits or the public has insisted.

My first thought was, "How the hell did this guy get so close to me before I noticed him!"

Another good reminder to always stay alert.

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Centennial Every Day

And we are going to leave it at that.....

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Ogy