I've been carrying my M60 most of the time and have done my practice with it out to 25 feet. I'm wondering what others do, as I can't see firing at something that is much past that distance with a 2" j frame - but maybe I should reconsider that and start practicing at longer distance.

I practice with my L frames out to 75+ but must admit that I'm not really very proficent at those distances. I can the majority of the rounds inside a 12" circle (ie. 4 of 7) but need to do more work to get tight groups.

How about you? Do you target shoot at distances further than 20 or 25ft.?


Pete

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Don't tread on me

Hey Pete,
I usually practice with my M60 at the 7 yard (21 foot) line but I also do take 20 or so shots at the 50 foot line just to keep in practice with the snub gun. At the 7 yard line I practice mostly point and shoot double action and drawing from my holster, where as at the 50 foot distance I shoot single action and actually aim. I also like to shoot a few rounds of my carry ammo just to stay familiar with the recoil. I carry the BB heavy +P 158 grain LSWCHP's and they are a handful if practice is not done on a regular basis. Stay well!

regards,
Chief38

i usually practice from 3 yards out to 15 yards.OnE day i was out at the range with a couple oF other officers off duty sighting in our deer rifles and joking around about shooting my centenniel at 100 yards. I said i could probably hit a man size target and the bet was on. One shot one hit no warm up. Could I do it again? Maybe. I have read that some big name gunwriters can hit an 8 inch steel plate at 100 yards. Fun practice but not practical.

I have to agree to shoot at your target at a distance of 7 yards and practice getting to and drawing your weapon and point and shoot, 2 taps at the target center mass! Remember you only have 5 rounds, make them count! Practice drawing with an empty weapon at home, bringing the gun out and towards the target tap tap! It should become easy and fluid, one movement, as quickly as you can, your life will depend upon it when there is no other choice. If you use your weapon stats point to firefights happen within 3 to 7 yards, if you are 50 feet away , get the heck out of there.
You are carrying for self defense and you may have to draw and shoot someone. Practice so you do it without thinking.
Remember your brain and being aware of what is going on around you is your best defense TO AVOID getting into that situation. Keep alert, its better to walk away than having to draw and fire.
Just some things I learned as a third generation PO in NY, I thought I'd share with you. Any questions shoot me an email.

I do most of my defensive shooting practice 7 to 10 yards out. Point shooting, shooting with both eyes open, drawing and firing, moving and shooting, etc. I also stretch it out to 25 yards just for fun sometimes. Outshot my buddy once at 25 yards with my 442, he was shooting a Springfield XD .45 Tactical.

I'm now out to 50 ft with the new FS M&P 9mm as I'm still getting used to it. I still use 100 ft for the .357 Mag -- sometimes farther. If I can be accurate at those distances, closer shouldn't be a problem.

I practice at 7 yards/21 feet with my CCW, which is the recommended distance you'd better start shooting if seriously threatened. If I can get all my shots within an 8" circle, I'm satisfied, and I'm getting there. As I improve, I will go further out.

I practice at CLOSE ranges. 10, 15, 20 ft. Same as with my BG 380. Those are guns with a very specific purpose, so I practice with the intended purpose in mind.

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- The Federalist #46 -

With all these mass shootings happening lately, it's not inconceivable that one might need to take that long shot with a small CCW on a preoccupied mass shooter someplace who doesn't see you coming.

It's unlikely most of us will ever be in that situation, but we should train for it anyhow. Some may argue you should flee, and I don't want to be no hero, but history shows that the slightest opposition usually stops these cowards dead in their tracks and they off themselves before they have a chance to murder anyone else.

So yes... train for that long shot with your J-Frame, use the sights, and never assume that an encounter will only be 5-10 feet away.

I'd think twice about taking that shot at 50 ft. in a crowded place with scrambling people, a target who would likely not be stationary, and a 1 7/8" barrel.

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- The Federalist #46 -

I've been carrying my M340PD constantly in my non-dominant side pocket for the past few years. I carry it loaded with full power .357 Magnums, and I replaced the rubber grips with Eagle Secret Service stocks. Every range trip I fire a cylinder full, left hand only with these loads at bad breath distance. It's my BUG, so if I need it, it's probably gonna be up close and personal.
I have other J-Frames I will shoot at 7 yards or so. They include a M36, M60, M642 and M640-1.
The J-frame is now always my second gun. I practice at longer distances with my primary carry revolvers and Glocks.
Jim

Remember that the 21 foot rule was the minimum safe distance that a police officer could draw revolver and shoot an attacker armed with a knife - the minimum. At even closer distances, speed and accuracy and movement (and probably cover/concealment/obsticles in the path of the attacker) are even more critical and must go together. I also advocate practicing to hit at 25 yards with a J. Being able to hit accurate at 25 yards should translate to consistent hits at much closer distances.

There are situations were it may be safe to take the shot. Say you are on the upper floor or walkway of a large open mall (a prime mass shooter target), and you can clearly see the shooter below with back toward you in the middle of a wide open floor indiscriminately shooting at people. It may be better to take the shot then to hope he doesn't come your way while you and your loved ones try to escape.

It is believed by many that the shooter at the Oregon mall was stopped by a CCW holder in a similar scenario, who then killed himself (?) as soon as his fantasy world bubble was popped. I don't know if that's been proven, but it seems a reasonable explanation as to how he was only able to kill two people in a very crowed mall even though he was well equipped to cause far greater damage.

As I said, it is extremely unlikely any of us civilians will be in that situation, but if you carry and you are serious about practicing there is no reason not to train for the possibility. Some shooters can hit out amazingly far with the small J-Frames.

i carried a 2" m36 in the det.bureau for years...we had to qualify from 7,15,25 yards on a timed combat course...that little m36 sure made me look good

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

I am always suprised how difficult it is to hit wild game with a handgun? I practice at 15 to 35 yds with all my handguns, they all wear iron sights, the time before last I was bagging off the hood of my old Landcruiser at about 60 yds with an older Beretta 70s in 22lr, changing up to my Springfield Armory Loaded and finishing up with my old 27-2, that now belongs to my little brother, my buddy was surprised, he was shooting his AR with ghost rings and a 10-22, he declined joining my handgun fun, I am 56, he is 61.

He is a much better shooter than I, but he plays the 7yd game, lots of double taps, and shoots even 44 mags and has a very nice follow up even with the 44 mag. I had respectable groups with all the above weapons, but, when you back up to those ranges with a handgun, have realistic expectations, if your eyes water and you stop in the middle of a cylinder or magazine, you more than likely have just changed your POI, regripping, any of the above will change where those bullets go, don't beat yourself up, just keep practicing, and absolutely nothing is more fun than those 100yd shots on cardboard and hearing that bullet "whop" the target, my best group at 100yd was with a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, with the ACP cylinder, 4 shots into 6", not sure where the other two went, this was in field conditions.

The only real point of this is it is fun, but up close, it is so much easier, pick up that front sight, put it on the target and follow through, keeping it there, you will hit, its just that simple. The more important element is form, I shoot Chapman modified Weaver, when I pick up a 2 inch snub or a 7.5 inch colt, I have the same accuracy expectations with both, and yes I understand sight radius, but the rear sight is really your eye, as long as you hold your weapon consistantly with a repeatable form, the rear sights of your weapon will frame the Front sight, pick up and hold that front sight the bullets will follow. Billy

< 15'. Anything more than that in a defensive situation and my first plan of action will be to find a safe exit route, not make a long shot. Greater than 50' and I need to find me a rifle.

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I'm with the banned ...

I don't carry my J frames much, but as with my EDC semi, I practice defensive shooting with my 60-10 and 642 with 2 targets, from 4 and 7 yards up to both at 7 yards. When I am alone I try to draw and shoot two within 2 seconds, either one target twice or both once. I practice laying on my back, on one knee, roll and shoot, left handed, turn and shoot, stuff like that. Both have the same rounds in them, 38+P JHP.

I save the longer range shots for my non-carry 13-1 and M&P45FS.

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Marty 4513TSW 13-1 642 60-10

Distances and Practice along with Proficiency, change with your duties.

LEO"S need to show some proficiency at a higher level than a civilian.

Their job puts them in HARMS WAY daily, one by just wearing a uniform.

Civilians should always pay attention to situational awareness,
and probably RUN DON'T SHOOT.

LEO'S have government support and financial backing with shootings, civilians face more risks.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

About 5 yards.
Then realize how poorly I shoot it and go back to a full size autoloader.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

Practice at 25 yards and the need to practice at shorter distances becomes unnecessary. Shooting at the very short distances serves to mask shooting skill shortcomings. If one can shoot well at 25 yards, then 3, 7, 10, and 15 are not difficult. A J-frame will do surprisingly well at distance despite what some say, though it does take some practice.

I have to agree with the last post. Close practice hides flinching and poor sight regulation. I shoot my J frame at 25yds strong hand and 10 yds weak hand. Once you have shown yourself that you can hit at 25 yds hitting closer is a cinch. I recommend practicing for a hostage encounter as well.

J frames are certainly tougher to shoot but its not impossible. The biggest problem I've found is getting perfect sight regulation.

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Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

When I had one*, I practiced all the way out to 25 yards. It's better to practice for something hard, than being unprepared should you need to fire at longer distance.

In the case of a mass shooting, I could easily envision the need for a 25 yard shot.

*mine got replaced by a Glock 23 since it has nearly identical dimensions, but has more than twice the rounds of a larger caliber, and is easier to shoot.

Taught to shoot two ways, and still practice that way. Point shoot at short range 30' or less, aim and shoot at greater. Training includes point shoot first shot and raise to aim/frontsight. Advantage of pointshooting practice : in the dark, I can't see my frontsight, but I can see my target.
I don't bother practicing at indoor ranges unless they are open format(not shooting through a window).
Just for fun...Check out youtube hickok45, he displays some great long range snub shooting.

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Halfway and one more step

Five, seven, and ten yards.

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John

Wow - 8" plate at 100 yards would be a massive challenge for me! You would need to go through a couple of cylinders just to determine the drop at that distance? Wonder how well a .38+P would stop someone - or if it would stop someone - at that range?

Pete

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Don't tread on me

From three yards to 25 yards regularly.
Occasionally out to 50 or 60 yards.

J-frame, 25'+/- one handed dump 5, 80% in paper plate or better or I need more range time! With the weather getting better, I'm starting to play with the Contenders, and that makes point blank easier. Ivan

long line that piece.
Yeah, combat ranges are "usually" not long distance dedications, and it seems wasteful to drill for the "unusual".
set the primary role of your arms aside and embrace the other, much larger, side of shooting. it's fun.
if you think you might find some enjoyment trying to get a snub to interact with a target at 100 yards .. do it.
Don't bother trying to justify it, just enjoy it. You stand to learn a thing or two from the attempt. Such as whether or not you and your gun are capable and just how capable.
At these "impractical" ranges, its not so much the metal, though it does have its limitations, its the mental ... people could stand a few venues to develop this through some six gun zen

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it just needs more voltage

From contact distance to say 50 feet.

Point shooting from the hip and sighted fire out past the 15 to 50 foot mark.

I practice for the big suprize....Done used up all my mulligans.

Got shot in the ear one time, dang it!



.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Yeeowch, that stings! Reminds me of an uncle from Hemphill when one was discharged right next to his noggin' he said "boys, that makes mah ear rang! Kaint ya'll hyear it?"

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Halfway and one more step

From three yards to 25 yards, with the great majority being between three and 15 yards.

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Centennial Every Day

The late Stephen A. Camp in his book on airweight J-frames (available at highpowersandhandguns.com) has some great close range drills that I have found valuable. Out here in the desert, alone, possibly with car trouble, I can see a difficult situation taking place at ranges greater than 7 yds. I would definitely practice at 50' to 75', single action from a rest. The J's will do this; they have shown themselves capable of fine accuracy from a machine rest with a 158gr. police service load. Of course a service-size handgun would be better, a short lever carbine better still.

I practice mostly in the 3-yd to 7-yd range. I do so because it presents shots that I would encounter in my home-defense plan. That being said, I do go out to 50-ft, at times, just to see if these old eyes can still do it.

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GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

Using a standard paper plate at 3, 5 & 7 yards: Shoot your gun until empty as fast as possible, combat reload (speed strips or speed loader) and repeat. The goal is to keep all shots on the plate, not a tight group. Obviously you'll need to slow down some as distance increases.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I typically practice between 3 yds and 7 yds, mostly 7. Then I finish up by firing 10 -15 rounds at 25 - 30 yds.

For me, seven yards on average. I've actually done it further out with a Colt DS or a M&P snub because they both tend to shoot more like a service revolver.

Tweren't the ringin........It was all the blood on my new shirt.....

Look'd like I'd been to a hog killin!




.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I bet thats right, care to "Splain yourself Lucy", a couple of my LEO-Gunny dude friends have a few self inflicted, in fact my B I L has a real nice star on the bottom of his foot from chasing a coon with "black talons". Doc cleaned it up, taped it up, and told him to "shut up" about it. One of the girls my wife used to do hair for was married to an ISP Canine cop, I think he put a .40 though his hand, transferred to motorcycle and think that was a little too exciting as well. Good reminder to slow down and think, handguns are dangerous animals, stay away from the end with teeth! I see a lot of sloppy gun handleing, sometimes I just have to say, "watch where you're pointing that thing"!

.
Let's jest say....If'n I'm gonna take a peek around the corner....I's a lot quicker about it now!!!



.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

For my concealed carry weapon, I have a model 638 airweight snubbie. I usually start out by practicing a controlled draw and fire at 10 feet. That is for training to the movement for quickness and sureness. Then i practice at 7 yards (21ft) two handed, double action, both eyes open, aim and fire twice. After that I shoot some at 50 ft aimed careful fire, both double and single action. Remember, aim small, miss small.

7 and 10 yards is what I practiced most recently, indoor range they don't want you shooting at anything closer than 7 to keep people from chipping pavement and shooting the ceiling. I think the range goes out to 50 and thats a tough one with the black sites on that black target with my 442.

I'm on the Wet Side of you in Olympia. My shooting with my J frames is limited to 50 ft (indoor range).

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

There is no doubt that "J" frames and other belly guns are designed for close range however why not try longer ranges?

It is correct in stating that if the opposition is 30-40-50 yards away no doubt make an exit if possible but on the off chance that is not possible what now?
Remember you will not determine the circumstance, distance, number of shots fired or anything else in a SD encounter the other guy will and you will simply be reacting to his decisions.

If you think about it a 15 year old with a .22 bolt gun has you outgunned, generally speaking, if you are armed with most handguns. Again generally speaking most CCW folks do not practice at longer ranges because the statistics say so. I don't put a lot of faith in statistics because statistics are many times statistically wrong.

So the bad guy is armed with a .22 rifle you can either flee, best option if possible, start firing from a longer distance and hope to get a hit, close the distance with the shooter to your effective range or simply next time on the range or wherever try some longer shots, see what kind of holdover/bullet drop you are looking at. On the same token fire your real SD loads instead of plinking ammo and see what it does. You may surprise yourself.

I changed my tactics with my 442 and put on a CT laser grip. I have it "zeroed" at 7 yards. I like the thought of the laser at close distance and where quick site acquisition is a must. I still use the factory sites for all distances for a multitude of reasons but mostly the laser is tough to see in direct sunlight and never put all your faith in a battery!

Other benefits of the CT grip for me are it's very comfortable, soft to shoot, easy to draw and control and fits me well.

When practicing I tend to start close (10'-12') and work my out to 50'. Seldom to I practice beyond that. I don't often carry a J so much of my time is with the laser and from 10'-25'. It is a fine CQ weapon (especially with the CT).

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paws for friendship

I find this fascinating as a new handgun owner. I've been practicing with my 640 at 15-20 yards only. I figured that once I got good at that distance then I'd try the shorter ones but that my most likely scenario is dealing with a bear and I'd better be firing by the time it's about 50 feet from me if it's coming at me.

Of course I'm still working out how to carry my weapon comfortably and getting familiar with it. It's my first handgun. I appreciate the info in this thread, thanks folks.

You're wasting ammo past the 7'-10' you'll most likely encounter a threat, or deadly force situation.

Cougar Attacks United States and Canada.
Mountain Lion Attacks from 2001 to 2010

Lots of good information. People who are attacked are usually unarmed and do the best they can.
Mountain Lions (cougars) normally bite down on the back of head or neck and do not let go. They try to bite (puncture) neck or head. They try to shake to break neck and try to cut neck with claws. Typically if hiking with a friend that friend beats on it with logs or rocks until it lets go and runs. Anyone armed with anything has less injuries than otherwise.

It is one of many cases where range or accuracy is no big deal. One older lady tried to push a ball point pen in the mountain lions eye while it was biting down on her husbands head. She had no luck pushing the pen into its eye so eventually beat it off with an old branch until it let go and ran.

Exactly. It is also important to know YOUR limits, so practice at different ranges, then you'll know them and be able to make the decision informed. There's already enough going on; have the distance factor down to go/no go so the rest of your decision-making can focus on the specific situation.

Much good information in the link posted on the cats. I was not aware of many things brought up in the article...I live in an area where there are Cougars. Thinking I better read up some more on these guys and am thinking that my M686+ is probably a better carry piece around the farm!! Somehow 7 rounds of .357 sound more comforting than 5 rounds of .38 special!! Thanks for the post.

Many good ideas on distance and practice techniques were mentioned, thanks to all that posted, good information here.

Pete

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Don't tread on me

Most of my snubby practice is at 7 yards. I'll do a few runs on 8" plates at 12-15 yards and then put some shots on a B-27 at 25 yards. Just because the barrel is short doesn't mean I have to limit my options.