After a recent discussion on .380, I noticed this video as I was searching for various ballistic tests on multiple calibers.

Some of you may have seen it, some may not have. What struck me is how well the FMJ will penetrate.

As mentioned in the video, there are other variables (bone) that would exist.

.380 Full Metal Jacket in Ballistic Gel - YouTube

The gentleman has at least two tests done using JHP. The penetration was only 10" in one and 8" in the other.

As much as I despise the 380, FMJ may be a good option. However since it won't expand, you better be real good with your chosen platform and hit your target.

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The same is true with any round from a handgun, of course: if you want to be sure the person stops aggression right now, damage the heart/aorta or brain/upper spinal cord. Shot-placement and adequate penetration.

As I've said here before, I've never worked on a .380 FMJ shooting in which the bullet failed to adequately penetrate (even with massive assailants), but I've worked on three .380 JHP shootings in which they did. (I've also only seen one arguable overpenetration with a .380 FMJ in a shooting case, and that hit the first person in the lower leg.)

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Nice video. I've done similar tests in the past with the .380 and had the same results as far as penetration goes.

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there is some good advice in there where the 380 goes.
it just don't take well to whiz bang projectiles as other calibers do.

I'm not sure why the OP brings it up .. we just ran a 380 thread to death and the conclusions are just contusions.
There's almost no reason to carry a 380 as even 45 has found a home in a pocket sized mighty mouse

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it just needs more voltage

Oh man, I'm sorry! I forgot I had to run my posts by you and my reasoning for them BEFORE I post. It won't happen again.

No reason to carry a .380. OK. Weight, size, and bulk aside you're absolutely right.

With good placement, the .380 FMJ has the penetration to be lethal. It's been said over and over but a well placed shot with a .380 is better than a poorly placed shot with a .45. Hit an attacker with a few .380 FMJs and you'll do some damage. That's the point of the video. .380 FMJ can penetrate! Is it the best choice for combat? No, but neither is the .45.

What if .380 is all you have or you just happen to like the caliber? To each his own.

I'd love to watch someone try to shoot 3-6 well controlled rounds....FROM A POCKET SIZE .45! Those pockets must be on Shaq's pants.
Many people can't manage the recoil of a full-size .45 well enough to quickly place follow up shots. Pocket size guns aren't made in "big calibers for a reason....

Come on now. That's not the issue and you know it. Matter of fact we all know it. Even those that carry a pocket 380.

The issue is that people don't want to be bothered with a holster and they need a gun that will fit in their pocket. God forbid they have to wear a belt, pants one size bigger, a loose outer garment, or jacket.

No, it's just easier to drop a 380 in the pocket and go. So because they don't want to be honest and tell the truth they offer excuses. The same old excuses that simply don't work anymore.

Ever feel the recoil of a Ruger LCP or Kel Tec P3AT? I rest my case. And in the last several years more sub compact guns have been designed, manufactured and sold than ever before. So what does that tell you? I rest my case again.

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Springfield XDs - YouTube
there ya go

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it just needs more voltage

I knew you were gonna go there so I didn't!

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its almost too easy
to be honest, I dont have, nor have I test driven the XDs 45 personally. Ive been keeping an eye on it to see how it shakes down. Thus far they seem to be holding up.
The thing is, it really kicks the 380's puppy.
if this trend holds, and there is every reason for it to. there really will be next to no reason to make concessions down to 380

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I looked at the video and I have to admit - I like that gun!
However, the video said its the same size as the M&P Shield. Now, if I put my shield in my pocket its going to look like I'm awful glad to see somebody
Don't get me wrong, the shield CAN be pocket carried if one has BIG pockets and doesn't mind printing some, but I prefer mine IWB/OWD. Having said that, I'm going to be keeping an eye out for one because that looks like it would be a "sweet" carry option - when I'm not pocket carrying.

That's what it comes down to!

we also have to bear in mind that the thing is feeding off a mag full of trash can sized 45. some engineer somewhere has switched from walking to strutting for this achievement.
what would the same treatment do around a 40 cal, or a 9MM?
Kahr has been doing exactly that though I don't think they've every achieved the reliability of the XDs.
Of the issues that have been surfacing with it, they all seem to be cases of people running their guns bone dry and a few cases of minor mag issues.
I'm kinda anxious to see if Springfield will pursuit further trimming of the pistol to accommodate 40 and 9

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Seems to me like they can only reduce the platform size to a certain point before the pressure is too great for it to handle. A polymer framed .45 acp, the size of a LCP or Bodyguard(for example) seems impossible, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't carry one! Now that I think of it....I'm gonna just "keep an eye" on the xds for awhile. Lets see if one explodes in somebodies hand.

pressure is primarily contained by the barrel. The XDs seems to be on par with a 1911 in terms of barrel wall thickness while the chamber area looks to be a little thicker. The ability to hold pressure isn't the failure Im watching for. I'm looking for slide and frame destruction which doesn't seem to be happening ... yet. What is surfacing is a tendency of the new CCW set to overlook gun care. They take em out of the case, untouched from the store, straight to the range and burn ammo till they choke. When they do choke, they get a puzzled look when you ask them "did you clean it?"

In one vid, this guy just got his back from the factory. It honestly looked like Springfield gave it a once over, reassembled it, tossed it in a bucket of oil then wiped off the exterior. I think they've seen so many dry guns, they probably have a service tech who does this to make a point about lube.
he gripes and pitches a bit of a fit about it, but in a later vid you see the same guy showing you how to lube the XDs in sane fashion.

I've yet to see one that has fallen apart due to frame battering or cracked slides. If I don't see a few by this summer, I just might jump on one.

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it just needs more voltage

The .380 is a good gun to carry when you can't carry a gun, and its a heck of a lot better that nothing. I would much rather carry or have my wife carry a .380 than to go unarmed.

The endless debate.

I took the warden and two of my kids out to our little range this past weekend. I wanted the warden to fire a few guns and see which she would prefer to keep on her nightstand.

She didn't care for the 642 grip or long trigger.
She liked the 9c.
She liked the Shield.
She liked the 3913.
She liked the 4513.
She hated the BG380.

All of these are small guns, easily concealed. My son (11) my daughter (17) and the warden all preferred the small 9s and even the small 45 to the 380.


.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

The caliber wars rage on, some get heated if others do not agree w/their choice(s). My LEO experience has taught me well and I carry a .38 in retirement and sometimes even a .32 as needs dictate.

You should carry what you shoot best and something that will always be with you. Carrying is like insurance; you are smart to carry but hope you never need it.

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LEO (Ret.)

Which 380? One of the micro ones?

Dude. Smith & Wesson makes a pistol called the Bodyguard .380. Yes, it's roughly the equivalent to a Ruger LCP; perhaps a bit larger.

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Ah. I dont do abbreviations unless they are major ones : p

The Springfield XDs loaded with 185s is quite comfortable to shoot, and much nicer than going with 230s. At the SHOT show it was announced that the XDs would soon be available in 9mm and 40. The XDs is a great value for a large caliber pocket rocket. Although I prefer the Colt New Agent in .45 ACP, the XDs is smaller, lighter, and 1/2 the price.

As for .380, I owned a magnificent 1971 PPK/S some years ago. Made in Germany, and very James Bond. So much for being 007 ... the .380 bit my hand like an angry dog, and I swore off that caliber soon after. Is it better than carrying nothing? Yes. Perhaps even better than carrying something else, if you shoot it well. Personally, I think it's a caliber than outgrew its usefulness and was reintroduced as a gimmick for the casual carry crowd. No way I would want to shoot a lightweight polymer .380 after the all-steel PPK/S experience, and I'm not a firearms neophyte.

But what about carrying a lightweight J-frame? That's what I do on a regular basis, and an Airweight or Airlite with 158s isn't extremely fun to shoot ... BUT considering the bang-for-the-buck, I will take the .38 Special J-frame over the .380 semi-auto any day.

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I'm with the banned ...

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

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The choice is clear!

One very important statistic is missing. What kind of ammo was used in each shooting? IMO statistics such as the above mean nothing unless the ammo used is specified.

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There's nothing to suggest that the ammo used in these shootings is significantly different than the general mix of ammo gun owners load in their 38 special and .380 for self defense. What it means is that those who chose these guns appear to be defending themselves with eerily similar results.

I don't think the results are skewed or because of some type of ammo anomaly. If you look at the data for the .380 .38spc, 9mm, .40 and 45ACP, the results are all similar. Is it just that .380 owners are more sophisticated in the ammo they use than everyone else, thus making up for size deficit?

These type reports confirm what I have believed for quite a while... Hype about handgun caliber sells guns, gun magazines, ammo, makes for entertaining discussion and helps people feel confident in their choices, but doesn't necessarily deliver.

I wouldn't think it to be a case of anomaly either .. more one of normalcy.
the 380 is probably using a 90 grain bullet, the 38 is probably slinging 158's or 125's
I have a feeling that the 125 grain options influence the 38's track record with some improvement.

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You may have a point. However, the popularity of the 380 has grown immensely in recent years. Why? Mouse guns.

As I stated previously, it's the reasons/excuses that people give as to why they choose the 380. That's where I have a problem.

And last I heard the J frame 38 is still S&W's best seller and has been for years.

And there isn't a 380 made that will match the reliability of a wheel gun.

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A .380 may only penetrate 10 inches, but penetrating 10 inches of skull is generally effective.

Unless it bounces off. And if you're relying on a mouse gun to get accurate head shots, you're crazy and irresponsible.

Center mass is where it's at. But of course you knew that now didn't you?

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I found an XDS!...and an XD. I'm going to shoot them friday, and will post my impression of them that night.

I can see where it would probably bounce off your skull, being solid bone and all.

I can't quit laughing!

outstanding. I hope they leave a good impression upon you in terms of being viable carry pieces.
I'd kinda like to find a specimen or two to test drive myself.
Its only got a few more months to go in its real world shakedown period whereby I'll transition from piqued interest, to active pursuit

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it just needs more voltage

My Ruger LCP is much easier to conceal than my 640, and if .380 was good enough for James Bond I guess its good enough for me! Like most folks, I get a sense of security with 45acp but carrying a 45 is a bit tough. So sometimes I think the best compromise of caliber and size is something like the Shield or the Ruger sr40c, or back to a j-frame with 38+p where the only real concession is in the number of rounds.

You said to "see which she would prefer to keep on her nightstand"......if that's the intended use, then what does "easily concealed" have to do with anything?

Most people are trying to convince me the .380 is an easily concealed adequate self defense gun, my point is there are better calibers that shoot easier and are also easily concealed.

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

unless its a result of an inheritance. we all start out with a gun.
That first gun has a LOT to live up to as we ask everything of it.
The nightstand may be the primary role but since its the one and only it also will be tasked with CCW, range enjoyment, perhaps some varmint work, and everything else while we figure out what to use a gun for prior to adding to the collection to better fill these roles.
Im glad to see that various manufacturers are trying to address the addition of CCW related requirements into this age old mix.

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it just needs more voltage

Inconclusive vid, but thanks for posting. As for the silly arguments about caliber, gun size, etc... I'd rather have a 380 in my pocket than leave it at home with my 40. The 380 is simply an easy gun to carry under certain situations...although I am not as confident with its' performance as I am with my 40. I am much more comfortable with my 40 and prefer to carry it. However, it is sure nice to have both. My wife likes her 380 and shoots it well. She is much more comfortable walking alone in the country when she carries her 380. We all know that it is really very silly to argue about caliber, gun size, shot placement, bone, penetration, etc.... I certainly won't. Leave the disputes between the anti gun and pro gun folks. Fellow gun brothers and sisters....We need no division among each other. My wife and I carry what we have and what works best for us at the time. Say what you want about the 380 in comparison to other calibers....as we understand the differences. However, we also happen to feel it is formidable and worthy of carry vs nothing at all.

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Well, about the XDS...beautiful gun, and for a close quarters defense weapon it would be great - provided there are no more than 1 (perhaps 2) attackers, because the mag only holds 5 rounds. The grip is very aggressive, and I didn't like the way it felt in my hand. Muzzle rise was considerable, making accurate follow up shots more difficult.

Some are suggesting this as a pocket carry. I can't see it, unless it's in a cargo pocket - something I'm not a fan of. Current prices are also a turn off ...$869 at the two stores I found with it in stock!

I really wanted to like this gun, but, all things considered....I walked out with a new Glock 23 Gen 4 instead.

The absolute best choice for a gun for defense and a round for defense is the gun you have on you at the time it is needed and the rounds you have in that gun that are ready to fire. Leaving Your favorite cannon at home with its depleted uranium shells is never better than your .25 single shot derringer in your pocket. Ok maybe a rock is better but I digress.

jtpur. I agree. I have a few friends who ALL swear by their .45 acp, yet most of the time when we're together, if the shtf the only one armed would be me!
"It gets heavy"...
"I'm not dressed to conceal it"...
These are the most common reasons it sits at home, but my "Bodyguard" is ALWAYS on duty Sometimes it's just backing up my G23, but its always there.

I would call them wimps and shame them into carrying their larger gun or buying a smaller one!

I spent 5 hours in the sun when it was 90 degrees out taking money at a event. Had a full sized 9mm in a IWB holster the entire time.... that thing weighed 100 lbs by the end of the day.... But if I had my 442 at the time I would have been carrying that instead.

People just don't want to commit to carrying a full size gun. I can hear the whining now. "It's too heavy!"

Jeez, buy a decent belt and holster and get over it!!

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Two of my favorite thread topics are .380 threads and bear threads. Not at the same time though.

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C & L