my response to "no guns allowed" sign

[wheelyfun66]

Hey All,
I live in VT, which has Constitutional carry (no permit needed to carry a firearm concealed).

I have a permit for a neighboring state (NH) and frequently shop at a hardware/home builder's store located in NH.

After years of shopping there, I suddenly see a sign on the front door: "no firearms allowed".

I am, of course, carrying concealed.

I am on a mission to purchase 5 gallons of paint, an expensive infra-red heater, and various tools and wood for a project.

The first thing I do, however, is go to the aisle with tools in it, grab a nice Hatchet, and stick it in the loop of my carpenter's Carhartt pants.

After I am done shopping, while at the check-out, the clerk asks, "Are you buying that Hatchet"?

I reply, "no, but I saw your NO GUNS sign, and wanted some form of self protection while shopping".

He did not laugh....but seemed baffled.

I know, I know, I shouldn't shop there if I do not honor or agree with their policy.......but it is the "Live Free or Die" state, and I choose to shut up and carry concealed.

Funniest part was, I WAS carrying concealed while this occurred!
(I know that some will flame me for this....and I can accept that!)

[Protected One]

Well I'm not going to flame you. I think that was a hilarious responce to the sign.

[LoboGunLeather]

I kind of like that!

[Roldanis]

Nicely done sir. Thankfully in my state those cute signs carry no legal authority.

[jimmib]

good idea on the hatchet...to bad the clerk didn't pick up on it...I will not leave my concealed in the car to go into anyplace and have it stolen while I am gone...then another criminal has a gun...jmho

[gdnagle]

Now me I would have loaded the things into the cart and taken them to CS. I would then proceeded to explain to them this is the sale they lost by having the sign, while I was still carrying without their knowledge but I wouldn't have told them. Like most stores they don't know or care what other dangerous objects they sell, as long as it's not a firearm. Heck I bet you could have bought a .22 stud gun there with blanks.

[snubbyfan]

I like that, I'm gonna havta make a leather tomahawk holder for just such an occasion.

[jfd]

Haha, excellent!

[10mmauto]

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

And you made your Constitutional protest to the checkout clerk?

[S&W HE]

In my opinion a no gun zone is really a free to kill zone . I never feel safe in a free to kill theater, school, military base or other no gun location. And I keep in mind, when seconds count the police are just minutes away.

[pawncop]

Very creative, I like it. For those that ask "Why do you feel you need to carry in a hardware store" I would make the observation that I never know where evil is going to make it's appearance. Accordingly I will carry a sidearm anywhere I can.

I hope you find this helpful.

[wheelyfun66]

Originally Posted by 10mmauto

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

And you made your Constitutional protest to the checkout clerk?

What sort of "history" or "intel" did I know that "made me feel the need for protection"?

My good man, are you serious? Why do ANY of us carry a defensive weapon?

Oh, forget it. I just noticed that you are in NY state and are LEO. My bad. (And yes, my magazines hold more than 7 rounds(

[Ransom]

Originally Posted by 10mmauto

what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

Do you only buckle your seat belt on roads with a history of crashes? Do you deem it necessary to have a fire extinguisher in your home even though you may never have had a fire before?

[jfd]

Really, we have to think in advance of leaving the house whether we MIGHT wind up somewhere that having a gun to protect ours or our family's life would be prudent?????? I don't know about others but I'm not clairvoyant. I try to avoid trouble and bad areas whenever possible but evil exists all around us. Myself, and most CCP holders I know, value the life of ourselves and our family. That is why we carry. I'm not trying to make a statement by carrying or be a tough guy. I also don't want to have to shoot someone in self defense but if necessary I will.

I holster up when I leave the house and try to avoid locations where I have to unholster but do so if the law requires (banks, post office, court house etc).

As many others have said, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

BTW, never been to NY, not sure I'll ever need to go.

[Ransom]

Originally Posted by jfd

BTW, never been to NY, not sure I'll ever need to go.

I'm very unlucky in this regard. My dearest extended family members live in NY, IL, and OR. None of these states accepts my Missouri CCW permit.

[skrazo]

I don't want to be caught in a "situation" where I need my concealed carry weapon and don't have it. I don't trust Kooks and Wackos to allow a "timeout" while I fetch my weapon.

[islamoradamark]

because they got a sign and u are carrying consealed does that mean the hardware store person can shake u down? number 2 that sign dont mean nothing u got rights

[blujax01]

I cannot demand that one respect my 2A Rights and at the same time ignore someone else's Private Property Rights. Whether the sign is worded correctly in the appropriate font and letter height and "carries the power of the law" or whether it is "just a preference" on the part of the proprietor, the message is as clear as a "no trespassing" sign - and if you doubt the validity of those, find the threads about farmers and hunting season! I simply make note of it and avoid such places.

Easy-Peasy...

[dinooch]

I'm a firm believer in "keeping your mouth shut". I carry and don't ever say anything about it. The old rule of thumb is "a person shouldn't know you have a gun until they are shot". That being said, screw the hardware store, just go about your business as usual. Why make a scene?

[SgtLumpy]

Originally Posted by islamoradamark

because they got a sign and u are carrying consealed does that mean the hardware store person can shake u down? number 2 that sign dont mean nothing u got rights

What are these "rights" you speak of?

The right to enter someone's private property against their posted wishes? That's not a right that I extend to anyone. And it's a criminal act I choose not to engage in.


Sgt Lumpy

[redneckemt]

Gun owners are own worst enemy. Smart@ss comments and actions in protest of Gun Free zones do what exactly? Educate business owners not be jerks too the folks who just work their. Look at the Starbucks drama. Its the business owners business you don't like his rules tell him not his employees and take your business elsewhere, and make sure he knows why. Come on people the left is attacking us daily, don't give them an inch. Acting a fool hurts our cause.

[Jhawk412]

I can read the constitution and I believe all these laws forbidding keeping and bearing arms, whether a state law or hardware store "no guns" sign, violates the constitution. I simply don't let them violate my rights, unless there's a metal detector involved.

[redneckemt]

Originally Posted by Jhawk412

I can read the constitution and I believe all these laws forbidding keeping and bearing arms, whether a state law or hardware store "no guns" sign, violates the constitution. I simply don't let them violate my rights, unless there's a metal detector involved.

The Constitution protects your rights from the Goverenment. It does not allow you to go onto private property and do whatever you want against the wished of the property owner.

You have the right to take your business elsewhere. Not act a fool.

[Road Rat]

Originally Posted by blujax01

I cannot demand that one respect my 2A Rights and at the same time ignore someone else's Private Property Rights. Whether the sign is worded correctly in the appropriate font and letter height and "carries the power of the law" or whether it is "just a preference" on the part of the proprietor, the message is as clear as a "no trespassing" sign - and if you doubt the validity of those, find the threads about farmers and hunting season! I simply make note of it and avoid such places.

Easy-Peasy...

NOPE. The hardware store is open to the public. The farmers land is totally private. Apples and oranges!!

As long as the signs NO GUNS has no legal bearing and I keep my CCW concealed it is no ones business. Just the lawyers trying to do good.................and failing.

[Lost Lake]

Originally Posted by 10mmauto

But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

When my wife asked why I felt the need to pocket carry in my ski pants, I told her because my crystal ball was broken and I didn't know WHEN I may need to protect myself or her.....

.

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by Road Rat

NOPE. The hardware store is open to the public. The farmers land is totally primate. Apples and oranges!!

As long as the signs NO GUNS has no legal bearing and I keep my CCW concealed it is no ones business. Just the lawyers trying to do good.................and failing.

So you ignore the posted hours on the door, too?

"CLOSED"??? Not the law, just a preference...

I could continue to point out how wrong you are but it would be useless.

[sambuh]

Originally Posted by wheelyfun66

Hey All,
I live in VT, which has Constitutional carry (no permit needed to carry a firearm concealed).

I have a permit for a neighboring state (NH) and frequently shop at a hardware/home builder's store located in NH.

After years of shopping there, I suddenly see a sign on the front door: "no firearms allowed".

I am, of course, carrying concealed.

I am on a mission to purchase 5 gallons of paint, an expensive infra-red heater, and various tools and wood for a project.

The first thing I do, however, is go to the aisle with tools in it, grab a nice Hatchet, and stick it in the loop of my carpenter's Carhartt pants.

After I am done shopping, while at the check-out, the clerk asks, "Are you buying that Hatchet"?

I reply, "no, but I saw your NO GUNS sign, and wanted some form of self protection while shopping".

He did not laugh....but seemed baffled.

I know, I know, I shouldn't shop there if I do not honor or agree with their policy.......but it is the "Live Free or Die" state, and I choose to shut up and carry concealed.

Funniest part was, I WAS carrying concealed while this occurred!
(I know that some will flame me for this....and I can accept that!)

Hahahaha that was funny. And I carry when I see a sign that reads no guns allowed. I understand their position, but on any given day I'd rather be caught with it than without. Although, I try to avoid most of these places at all costs! (If I can)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[66snub]

In Michigan, the signs that these businesses post are not enforceable under law and are simply the wishes and preferences of the business owner. It is not against the law to carry in these establishments, and they may only ask you to leave if they find that you are carrying.

The illegal part is when you choose to, instead, stay at their establishment after being asked off of the premises. Then you are trespassing. That is when the law is able to step in. Not until.

If I get called to come and deal with a situation where a business has found that someone is CCW-ing in their establishment and no one has approached this person to ask them off, I will simply wait until an employee has asked that person to leave (in my presence) and then I will take it from there.

[MSG Glenn]

I carry wherever I go even if I think I won't need to. I have been unable to determine where that is. I avoid places that won't allow me to carry unless it's absolutely necessary that I go there. No gun signs have the force of law in WI.

[dougb1946]

Originally Posted by Road Rat

NOPE. The hardware store is open to the public. The farmers land is totally primate. Apples and oranges!!

As long as the signs NO GUNS has no legal bearing and I keep my CCW concealed it is no ones business. Just the lawyers trying to do good.................and failing.

I disagree . The sign has a legal bearing but you refuse to acknowledge it, and lose the moral high ground.

The business, like the farm, is private property. The owner does get to set the rules, within a broad framework of laws. You are not in a protected group. Saying that the signs have no legal effect is just a way of rationalizing poor behavior. The sign that you choose to ignore is the store owners polite way of informing you upfront that carrying a gun onto his property is against his rules, and that is trespassing.. He does not need a sign or a reason to trespass you. The signs laws just point out procedures, whether the store owner needs to personally tell you, and lets you know at what point the law drops the hammer. The trespass starts when you walk past the sign. That is the definition of trespass.

The reciprocal behavior is the store owner has a picnic in your back yard, because he doesn't believe in your property rights, or your neighbor climbing a fence to get at your swimming pool. Not only illegal behavior, but rude. Your rights end where the store owners begins. This is a situation that just calls for a MWAG call and spreading the trespasser on the floor.

Rationalize it any way you want, the law calls it "trespass", a centuries old crime that recognizes the owners right to control what is his. You do not have a legal or moral right to enter in violation of the rules. You don't like the owners rules, your legal and moral options are 1) go elsewhere, 2) convince the owner to change the rule, 3)explain to the nice cop why your right to carry trumps the owners rights. The cop will not agree with you.

Farmers land is not "primate" or primal, or primitive. Between clearing, leveling, ditching and draining, and fencing, being worked with modern equipment, and selling for 2 to 12 thousand dollars an acre, a farm is a high tech food factory, with the purpose of making money for the owner. The "No Guns" sign is precisely the same as the farmers "No Hunting or Trespassing" sign.

[worm5932]

I agree with the statement that gun owners are their own worst enemies. this might be a little off topic but I read a lot of stories about people excersizing their 2nd amendment rights and it going all wrong, and the police are to blame.

anyone who thinks its ok to do something like, open carry an AR through the mall because its your right, is an IDIOT. those circumstances are exactly why we carry a concealed weapon, if I were to see that I would be on high alert while I call the police. honestly, that kind of act could scare someone into cardiac arrest.

when I took the training for my license the lawyer who taught the legal part did NOT condone carrying where posted not to. what he did say was if there is someone drowning in a lake with a no swimming sign, you wont be fined for swimming in to save the person.
im in Illinois and don't actually have my license yet, applied last Thursday. my belief is I am an honest, law abiding citizen. I will carry my CONCEALED weapon and no one will be the wiser. no one other than my wife will know I have a firearm unless they were a threat and they were just stopped.

[zzclancy]

Don't worry about the clip on knife. It's the concealed gun that I'm going to shoot you with. The knife is just for decoration, I'm to old to fight with you.

If its not federal property, or a place with metal detectors I don't worry about it. You will never no, unless I need to use it. And to quote Hilliary Clinton, "at that point, what difference will it make".

[rock_castle]

Originally Posted by 10mmauto

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

Wow. Just wow.

[donmateo25]

I carry a folding knife on me which barely maxes legal length, I recently found out Pizza Hut is a "no weapons" zone. I still carry it in my jeans' change pocket as I always do. I do at the mall, too. We have police and armed guards here at home in the mall and schools, so if the requirement of police in the mall doesn't give cause to stay frosty, I don't know what does.

As much as I am thankful to have an awesome police force here, they openly admit they are understaffed and cannot contain the crime in this town, so I have no problem packing defense.

[Lost Lake]

Originally Posted by MSG Glenn

No gun signs have the force of law in WI.

Thats the way I understand it also.

If a sign is posted and you carry anyway, you are breaking the law and are subject to a $200 fine.

I've been taking my chances and carrying anyway. I can afford a $200 fine. I can't afford to be defenseless because some idiot posted a sign.

.

[jtpur]

Originally Posted by 10mmauto

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

And you made your Constitutional protest to the checkout clerk?

I see you have a badge next to your screen name. I would assume you are current or retired LE. Are you kidding me. You have never investigated a violent crime in a retail establishment. He'll I investigated a homicide in a drug store, bar, grocery store, cement plant and yeah a hardware store too. I failed to mention the other 100 or so homicide scenes I went to in 20 years.

[rayban]

I would have charged you for the hatchet.....after all, you "used" it to protect yourself.

[islamoradamark]

when carrying concaled it is a part of your body. if nobody knows no harm no foul as far as going on the farrmers land big difference your there carrying in open and looking to hunt. the other reason if there are metal detectors because there is a reason for that. or maybe the guy should not have a hardware store there lots of tools in there that can do alot of damage, more so than carrying consealed or maybe he just wants u to leave it in your car so he can steal it. lots of opinions here thats y we are here just my 2 cents lets not get excited

[JSR III]

Really, what if the sign said "NO BLACKS ALLOWED". According to some of you, private property, those are the owners rules and if you disobey you are trespassing.

Fortunately, the first amendment allows you to make such ridiculous statements. But also fortunately, the second amendment allows me the right to bear arms. Our forefathers felt that second only to freedom of speech was the right of free men to bear arms. The first thing that dictators do is disarm the citizens, gee I wonder why?

I drive an SUV with no trunk and therefore no place to secure my firearm if left in the vehicle. So I have a choice of violating my states carry laws or ignoring an illegal sign.

I choose the latter.

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

or an elementary school, or a movie theater or a shopping mall.

Like they say on TV, COME ON MAN????

[TexasArmed]

I observe legal enforceable posted signs like the 30.06 sign in Texas. I do not comply with suggested signs, like the yellow recommended speed limit signs. In Texas if the owner of a business property does not want you to carry he can simply post a legal sign on each entrance that complies with Texas Law. I am expected to comply with Texas law so I expect the owner's signs to do the same.

[Road Rat]

Originally Posted by blujax01

So you ignore the posted hours on the door, too?

"CLOSED"??? Not the law, just a preference...

I could continue to point out how wrong you are but it would be useless.

Sir, I'm sorry but this conversation is over.

You protect yourself your way and I'll do it my way.

[SgtLumpy]

When tresspassing is outlawed,
Only outlaws will tresspass.


Sgt Lumpy

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Lost Lake

Thats the way I understand it also.

If a sign is posted and you carry anyway, you are breaking the law and are subject to a $200 fine.

I've been taking my chances and carrying anyway. I can afford a $200 fine. I can't afford to be defenseless because some idiot posted a sign.

.

The problem with this logic is that you're also risking your license.

[Lost Lake]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

The problem with this logic is that you're also risking your license.

I don't believe so, but maybe you're right. I know it's just a misdemeanor fine of $200. If there are further repercussions I have not read them.

While I try to avoid places that restrict my right to exercise my freedom, I won't hesitate to carry if I determine it necessary.

Good point Rastoff, I will look into it!!

.

[Rastoff]

I don't know the fine points in WI, but here in CA they can pull your license for any reason. Do you think they will issue a license to someone who has demonstrated that they are willing to ignore a simple request? Wouldn't that make them wonder what other "rules" you'd be willing to ignore?

Me? I choose to respect other's wishes and expect reciprocation.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Road Rat

NOPE. The hardware store is open to the public. The farmers land is totally private. Apples and oranges!!

As long as the signs NO GUNS has no legal bearing and I keep my CCW concealed it is no ones business. Just the lawyers trying to do good.................and failing.

^^^^^^+1 There it is!

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I don't know the fine points in WI, but here in CA they can pull your license for any reason. Do you think they will issue a license to someone who has demonstrated that they are willing to ignore a simple request? Wouldn't that make them wonder what other "rules" you'd be willing to ignore?

Me? I choose to respect other's wishes and expect reciprocation.

Yet ANOTHER reason not to live in California!

[Chillock]

Originally Posted by islamoradamark

number 2 that sign dont mean nothing u got rights

The sign does mean something in the state of Washington (although I have not seen a lot of those signs, which I will tell about in another post here). In the state of Washington a business is considered "owner" of the property if they lease/rent, process of purchasing or have purchased the property. Therefore, it is considered "private property" even though they are providing a public service/service to the public.

If caught carrying, open or concealed at a facility that is "clearly" posted no weapons allowed, you will loose your right to ever again have a CPL. You do not have to be convicted of said charge, only to have formal charges brought against you (not an investigation) but formal charges.

Two things... First, this applies to ALL people carrying weapons, get this, it includes: criminals, you, me, the general public and LAW ENFORCEMENT.
Second, exemptions for LE to enter carrying a weapon: called to facility by owner or representative of owner or in the case of an emergency.

In other words, if LE is on their own time or lunch hour, etc. they can not carry on to said property.

[Chillock]

Just before New Years, Mrs. Chillock and I took our son (home on leave, about to head back) and a few of his friends out to lunch.
We found out later, there is a no weapons sign at the register to the left of where you stand waiting to be seated.

There was 8 of us. We were shown to our table, as the host came to offer drinks, he saw my firearm (most of us had taken off our jackets).

Host: Excuse me sir, I am sorry but we have a sign stating no weapons allow.

Me: Really? I'm sorry I didn't see it. Not a problem.

We all got up to leave. Sitting across from us, were 4 Deputies (I know 2 of them) just ordered lunch. As we got up, so did the Deputies. I turned to them and said, "it's okay Bob, we're leaving". Bob said no problem Rick, we're leaving too.

Host: No one has too leave (motioning to my group) they just can't have weapons in here.

Me: We understand that is your policy. We however will not patron a business with your policy. Plus, we will not leave weapons in our car.

Host (turning to the Officers): Your lunch will be right out. Are you leaving?

Bob: Yes, we are. We are not allowed to be here if you have a no weapons policy, unless you have called us for some reason.

Me, I grinned a little thinking how ironic. I turned to the Host and suggest he let the owner know, that bad guys won't care about the sign. But that we understood their policy and that is their business.

I was polite, did not have an attitude in my voice, nor was I disrespectful of the Host doing his job and following policy.

When we left the building, Bob told me, that sign means they cannot carry into the place when it is posted unless of course it is an emergency or called by the business for some reason.

Anyway, all eight of my group went next door to the BBQ place and had lunch. The BBQ place didn't have a sign.

[Chillock]

Originally Posted by Road Rat

NOPE. The hardware store is open to the public. The farmers land is totally private. Apples and oranges!!

As long as the signs NO GUNS has no legal bearing and I keep my CCW concealed it is no ones business. Just the lawyers trying to do good.................and failing.

In the state of Washington, it does not matter if the business is open to the public, if it is stated no weapons, you legally can not bring in a weapon. The store maybe opened to the public, but (in Washington anyway) it is considered private property. Therefore, no weapons means no weapons. And you can and normally will loose your CPL and not be able to have one again in Washington state nor possess a handgun concealed or open carry.

Just a suggestion, but you might want to check to see what is considered private property in your state.

The quoted example, is comparing apples to apples in the state of Washington.

I have to say, I agree with the state on this issue. We do own/operate a couple of businesses and we will run them the way we see fit. By the way, we do NOT have a sign that says "no weapons allowed". We have encouraged our kids to get a CPL.