Yes, I agree that fashion is a factor. So is what manufacturers compensate gun magazines to push in print, in the form of heavy advertising money if nothing else.

There's a lot of science available, some of it oddly contradictory depending on the study you read.

But I've owned .40's, 9mm's, .357's, .32 ACP's, and .38 Specials. I keep coming back to the .38's because I trust their track record, revolver simplicity and reliability, and my ability to shoot them without worrying about a less-than-ideal grip if some thug is all over me.

If somebody wanted to give me a .380 I'd be happy to try it, but I'm not familiar with it and would still carry a .38 J-frame.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

The original post said “which cartridge”.

I would point out that the 9mm cartridge is similar to 38 special when the same bullet weights are used.

In Europe they call the .380 by the name 9mm short.

So the original question is similar to asking what is better a 38 special or a .357 mag.

What is better a 44 special or a 44 magnum.

The cartridge is inseparable from its platforms, and thus this discussion inevitably entails semi-auto vs revolver.

The revolver is more reliable than most every .380 semi auto, and launches a much heavier bullet (158) at similar velocities to the .380's lightweight 95 grain slug.

Not a hard decision in my mind.

.38 special.
I am partial to the Federal Nyclads.
I have a couple boxes left.
They are no longer in production.

Me too, particularly in Airweight® revolvers. Federal® still makes the Nyclad® 125gr HP standard pressure. I just bought 4 boxes a week ago. My wife (64) really enjoys shooting Nyclad®s because of their low recoil.

__________________
David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

This is what they call a rehtorical question.

I want to know if a 380 is better than a .22 magnum? You can buy a .22 magnum firearm in any barrel length you want. That sucker really cranks.

Well, no one can measure "stopping power" since it does not exist. In order to kill, a bullet does it's work by exsanguination or central nervous system disruption. Period. "Stopping power" is a myth. A bullet that stays in its target but does not cause massive bleeding/cns disruption is worthless. A bullet that goes right through the target, yet causes massive hemorrhaging or destroys the cns will work fine.

I was involved in a case in Chicago in the early 80's where three guys conducting a home invasion shot the homeowner 6 times in the chest with a .38 special. He chased them off with a baseball bat and then called an ambulance. The bullets all stuck in his pectoral muscles and didn't make it to blood bearing organs, major vessels, or the cns. He survived to testify just fine, even though all 6 rounds dumped ALL of their energy into his body.

Don't buy in to "stopping power." There is no such animal.

Wow, this has turned into a really interesting discussion. Keep it coming and thanks to all who participated.

So if we don't call it stopping power, what do we call it?

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Call it something you can actually measure. In the posts above, there are various formulae for differing measures of energy. Measure kinetic energy, momentum, penetration in a standard medium, etc. Stopping power simply cannot be measured. It is far too subjective a term.

My answer........


.500 S&W :-D. Done.

I'd like to know several things. For one, the type of ammo he was hit with. Second, barrel length(s). Third, the range at which he was hit. And finally, how the subdivided hell did he develop such incredible pecs?

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

He was hit at arms length, from a Detective Special. They were using 148 grain wadcutters! Not the smartest of folk. The victim was a railroad worker and was in pretty good shape.

I might have said this before.

I was once discussing rapid fire with 6 inch barrel 38 special with a friend. I was impressed with the tight groups my model 19 shot rapid fire with 38 specials.

My co-worker friend had been on the Los Angeles Police Dept. He laughed and commented that wherever the first shot hit they all were going to hit, with a 6 inch barrel revolver in rapid fire.

He continued on telling me about an incident when he was on LAPD. His partner had gone in a liquor store to buy a pack of cigarettes and walked up behind an armed robbery in progress. To make a long story shorter the would be robber spun around and shot his partner in the chest with a 32. This was before bullet proof vests (late 1960s ?). The 32 bullet did not penetrate his partners sternum, but did knock him out. His partner said it felt like the whole room focused onto his chest. He was out cold on the floor. As my friend ran in the front door the would be robber ran for the back door. Finding it locked he spun around pointing his 32, but my friend was already shooting rapid fire. All shots missed in a tight group over the robbers left shoulder. Robber was standing totally paralyzed. Friend said he walked up and took the gun from his hand.

Two people totally incapacitated with only minor injury. The 32 bullet had gone about 4 inches downward just under his partners skin from the forward angle of his crouch and draw position. Very minor surgery to remove it from under the skin.

So the 32 was a one shot stop. We will never know just how many of the six shots that missed would have tilted-out the bad guys brain. Maybe the first one? Maybe all six?
(For those not familiar with pin ball machine language the “tilt” is the “total shutdown” that occurs when you hit the machine too hard with palm of hand trying to influence the travel of the ball).

Hmmm… In your next post after this one you mention it was two inch barrel and 148 grain target wadcutter.

My old Speer reloading manual number nine, first printing in 1974, third printing 1976, has some factory bullet chronograph charts on page 434.

6 inch barrel is the only listing for a hollow base wadcutter (no other wadcutters listed).
6 inch barrel, Ammo Brands S-R-F-W Chronographed at 725 to 748.

Now the lead semi wadcutter (SWCL) brand S (Speer no doubt) came out of a 6 inch barrel at 868 velocity. Brand W came out at 970 velocity. (Exactly the area we would expect).
Out of a 2 inch barrel the brand S in 158 grain SWCL was chronographed at 742.

(So I would expect a 148 grain target wadcutter from a 2 inch barrel to be over 100 feet per second slower than from a 6 inch. Maybe 650 feet per second?) (Read third paragraph again).

I must note that muscles are not the only thing that grows with heavy lifting. The tendons that connect the muscle to the bone also grow. The bones also grow. And the ligament that connects bones to other bones grows, with heavy lifting.

So I completely believe the above post. Target loads designed for mid 700 fps in 6 inch barrels not advisable in 2 inch for defense.

This same page lists a Speer 140 grain jacketed bullet coming out of a 2 inch barrel at 892 fps.
The manual warns against loading up the Hollow Base Wadcutter because the bullet can deform (in Flash gap I assume).

My Chiefs Specials are loaded with 2 factory 158 gr round nose lead (sorta easy on the ears & penetrate well), then 3 (ear splitting) 110 gr silvertip hollow points behind them (if needed).

Recently I was at a homicide where a rather large fellow was hit once with a .380 in the left collar-bone. The bullet deflected downward into his chest cavity and tore out the top of his heart. He died immediately.

When it comes to bullets, there really is no "one best," and as it has been said repeatedly, shot placement is key.

Handguns are notoriously poor man stoppers, but they sure beat trying to punch a guy.

If the criminal was dressed in animal hide similar to a traditional northern Alaska or Canada or Siberian Eskimo, then the heavier 38 special bullet would be more likely to be successful than a itty bitty .380 bullet.

In Southern California I assume a .380 would be adequate for skinny people wearing thin clothing.

Or, a 95 grain bullet is a bit light.

In the early military trials that led to the adoption of the 1911 45 auto, which included shooting cadavers and live stockyard animals, several basics were concluded.
(Or so I read)
An adequate military pistol bullet should be at least 40 caliber, at least 200 grains, and travel at least 800 feet per second. They chose to exceed all those minimums.

Police tests over the years concluded the 158 grain 38 special bullet to be the best inside our cities.

In much of Europe where the citizens have no or few guns, and hoodlums normally fight with knives, the 9mm short A.K.A. (also known as) .380 has usually been the police weapon, for many many years.

(Military bullets)
Up to and including World War one, horses, and Calvary saber charges were a reality. Like in the Civil War a Calvary charge would involve first revolvers then switching to sabers.
Being able to shoot the enemies horse was a big deal. It was logical for the early pre 1911 45 auto pistol trials to include shooting stockyard animals.

(Police Bullets)
In our cities penetrating vehicles was a growing issue. Later the safety glass in the windshield was the limit that ended speculation of a 200 grain police 38 special bullet. Policemen loved the 158 grain 38 specials, but demanded the .357 after it became available about 1935. They were repeatedly turned down by most city politicians. The 38 special with 6 inch barrel was very common up to about the 1960’s. It’s main problem was drawing it from a sitting position particularly from inside a vehicle. The clamshell holster that sprung open mechanically when a button was pushed inside trigger guard was favored for awhile. Still the long barrel would often hit the steering wheel in an attempted fast draw. Similar to gamblers of old west drawing around a card table and loosing the contest when long barrel hit the table.
Eventually the 4 inch 38 special in a high-rise belt holster became the norm. In a sitting position it could be drawn straight up from the waist.

For the perfect house gun the 6 inch 38 special with 158 grain bullet is probably still the best. And it points nice in a dark room. A painted glow in the dark ridge down the top of the barrel would be nice. Very nice to be able to move a relatively heavy bullet over 900 feet per second without using a lighter/shorter bullet with more powder, noise, flash, and recoil behind it.

One article claimed that in World War 2 photo’s of General Patton he faced the cameras with his left side slightly forward when wearing his pistols. On his left was his trademark long barrel Colt 45 single action.
General Patton's Pistols - Colt 45 and SW 357
On his right side in an identical holster was a shorter S&W .357 magnum that was only obvious to a close observer. He was and expert in pistols and considered the .357 his “killing gun”.
(Ignore his .380s at bottom of the above page).

The ultimate handgun expert. General Patton.

The 1912 Summer Olympics games in Stockholm,...

In addition to serving in World War I as tank-driving Colonel and in World War II as a badass General who wore a Colt .45 revolver on his hip, George S. Patton was an early American modern pentathlete. He finished 4th in fencing and 6th in equestrian but got 20th place in shooting, a true cavalry man. He finished the modern pentathlon in 5th place.
.................
(Okay, I admit he was before hollow point jacketed bullets were invented/perfected).
(I think he would have carried a Chiefs Special as a back up gun if they were available back in his time?) (But in wars, having lots of magazines full of bullets is sorta nice).

Is the .38 special excessively accurate.?
Was pentathlete Patton robbed of Olympic medal? | Sports | Modesto Bee

Published: March 23, 2013
By Joe Cortez, Modesto Bee

(This article is a few months old)
(Starting a few paragraphs down)
U.S. Army Gen. George S. Patton competed in the 1912 Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden. And if not for Patton's famous bravado, he might have brought home a medal.
As it were, he finished fifth.

According to legend, Patton used his .38-caliber sidearm instead of the standard .22-caliber in the shooting portion of the competition. The holes in the target created by the .38-caliber rounds were so big that some of Patton's later shots passed right through the same holes. But the judges ruled those shots had missed the target completely.

Helen Patton, the general's granddaughter, was the keynote speaker during opening ceremonies at the Pentathlon World Cup in Palm Springs in February.

Hmm…. Patton’s Olympic revolver was a Colt 38. (The word “special” is not used)
(Near bottom of page)
Couvi's Blog: MORE PATTON PISTOLS

One of Patton's guns that he often carried was a Colt .32 auto wasn't
it? The .32 acp was a widely used police cartridge in Europe along with
the .380 acp. It's hard to compare the .380 to the 38 spl without any
reference to the guns they are used in. Maybe the answer for the
individual is which one he or she can shoot the best.

Depends on if a war is going on at the time. Or whether or not one is on the front lines.

I doubt General Patton carried any large handguns when on American soil. Or when on any relatively peaceful American base in another country. Like when he was in England.

Conversely he probably did not carry a 32 as his primary handgun when crashing through Italy during WW2. Or in the North African Desert fighting Rommel.

The problem, as stated has a flaw. You have to consider the launching platform, especially when dealing with multiple aggressors. With the .38 Special you are limited to 5 or 6 shots, the .380 7 to 15 rounds, but the large capacity autos are fairly large and not in production, to my knowledge.
Bulk and size being equal, I go with the 9x19mm 115 gr HP.
Geoff
Who has a .380 LCP, a .38 Special M-38 a 9mm Kahr 9094n or a SWaMPy 9c, which is favored when confronted by gangs in Escalades but hard to conceal in the land of shorts and shirts.

Hmm... You are in Florida.

Naturally you want a 9mm in Florida with lots of anti gang loads. (Unless it is a gang of “children” under 18 years old. In which case it is easier to hand them your wallet and let them beat you because their criminal history will not be allowed in court and few of us can afford Zimmerman’s lawyers)

But is any pistol much good against an alligator or a giant snake or sharks?

And I hear the mosquitoes in Florida will argue whether they should eat you there or drag you off to the swamp.

If you ride a bicycle in Florida you can outrun the mosquitoes and can walk along the rivers with it between you and the endangered alligators.

Last night the TV said the ocean was rising in Florida. I do not want to go to any state where the ocean is rising. (When that happened in Long Beach California in the 1960’s they began pumping a barrel of water back down for every barrel of oil pumped up).

In Florida they also have those sink holes that swallow people and even houses. Maybe it is time to cap the water wells and start drinking the swamp water?.

(I am going to go back to bed and get up again on the other side).

and someone hit between the eyes by a 9mm will no longer have need of feet!

Here is the proof that the sea level is rising in South Florida.

PolitiFact | Debbie Wasserman Schultz says in South Florida, "we've had nine inches of sea-level rise since the 1920s"

Debbie Wasserman Schultz says in South Florida, "we've had nine inches of sea-level rise since the 1920s"

Woman survives gunshot between the eyes - today > news - People: Tales of survival - TODAY.com

Florida woman survives gunshot between the eyes

Sometimes a 380 pistol is not enough gun (and neither is a 38 special). Florida has Alligators and Lake Tahoe California has Big Bears. One Bear had a 44 mag bounce off his head.

700 lb. Bear Terrorizes Tahoe
Behemoth bruin terrorizes Incline Village homes
Peter Fimrite, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, January 10, 2010 700 lb. Bear Terrorizes Tahoe :: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic


August 16, 2010
Near Lake Tahoe There's a Bear So Tough, Bullets Bounce Off His Head
'Bubba' Is Blamed for at Least 50 Home Invasions and His Crime Spree Isn't Over
Near Lake Tahoe There's a Bear So Tough, Bullets Bounce Off His Head - WSJ.com

Police Issue Bullet Bounces off Pit Bull's Head - DogsBite.org

Police issue bullet bounces off Pit Bull’s head.

The problem with all these cute stories is that they are the exceptions, not the norms. Bad way to analyze much of anything. I'm aware of a verified instance of a man stopping a charging elephant by shooting it with a .38 snub. Doesn't really mean that the .38 is much of an elephant gun. Look at the norms, the usual results, that sort of stuff. When you do that you find the .38 and the .380 have very similar track records.

Tastes great/less filling.

But the kids do love their "What's best?" threads.

__________________
Now go make God proud...

It's not 9mm v 45 ACP so I'm a happy guy.

It's not much of an answer but I'd go 38 > 380 every day of the week if we're just judging the round. More bullet, more powder, very likely to be better and won't be worse. I keep it pretty simple.

Deciding what to carry I follow this rule: choose the biggest baddest caliber you a) can shoot comfortably without sacrificing accuracy, and b) will carry regularly and not leave at home b/c it's too big or uncomfortable.

The only variable after that in this case for me is capacity, though most choose a 380 for small size and end up at the 7-8 round range versus 6 for a 38. Every round counts, but it's not 6 versus 15 in this case for most people.

As has been said, given that this is clearly between a revolver cartridge and a SA cartridge the next choice opens up about 10,000 variables for discussion, so I'll stop with "shoot the biggest you can shoot well and will carry".

__________________
Chuck M

My first "for real" carry gun was a Ruger LCP. I still have it and it's a good little gun- the key word being little. Unnoticable when carried in a back or vest pocket. But it ain't got much "stopping power". Stopping power DOES exist, it's just hard to quantify due to too many variables. But IMHO the 38 spl definitely has more of it than the 380. For the sake of reliability and penetration I carry the 380 loaded with factory 95 gr ball at maybe 900 fps. My 38 spl load is a 148 gr WC or 158 gr SWC-HP at close to 850 fps: 55% or 66% more bullet (with a more effective shape) at only 5% less velocity. Or to put it another way, a "power factor" (momentum) of 125,800 or 134,300 vs the 380's 85,500.

look at .380 in any xtp ammo for best results

Things have been boring recently.

Time for a caliber war.

Well, it's been almost 2 years since this thread was started and then stopped attracting posts.

Of course, with all the current attention being given to this "caliber debate" thread topic of .380 ACP v. .38 Spl on different gun forums, it would've been just as easy to start a new one here.

Not that it would resolve the "debate" or provide any definitive "answers", of course.

If the moderators want to let this zombie thread remain open ... in the interest of relieving boredom for some members ... I'll offer my own opinions ...

I own several J-frames and a couple of mini-380's (LCP's, but only because they're smaller than the S&W Bodyguard in ways that matter to me).

I have some decent ammunition selections for my +P capable .38 J's, including 135gr Speer +P Gold Dot, 125gr Speer +P Gold Dot, 125gr Rem +P Golden Sabre, 130gr Win +P RA38B (same thing as PDX1) bonded JHP and some 158gr Rem & Win +P LSWCHP. I rather like the heavier bullet weights available in the quality hollowpoint loads made for the .38 snubs.

That said, I really like how the thinner, lighter & shorter LCP's can be carried in some of my tighter pants pockets. I have an assortment of good JHP's in .380, too, including the Speer GDHP, Rem GS and Win T-Series.

Given my druthers, based strictly upon caliber and some potential "performance" criteria, I'd prefer to take the .38 Spl over a .380 ACP.

However, I look at the .380 pistols as offering me an opportunity to be armed when one of my J's won't fit my manner of clothing (and I'm past the point of wanting to "dress around" my guns all the time).

Some enthusiasts in other threads have expressed how they want their off-duty or private citizen CCW choices to always meet the penetration "standards" used by one of the federal agencies that have developed their own testing protocols. Fine for them.

I've decided that the .380 will still meet my perceived needs for my LEOSA and retirement weapon requirements, even if they might not meet the common performance standards set for duty weapons/ammunition.

My choice. My accepted nature of a compromise.

Beats having to rely upon empty hands or a "tactical pen". (I'll adroitly sidestep the topic of carrying a lockblade knife as a "dedicated defensive weapon" for this thread. Take a moment and just imagine how ordinary folks on a jury panel might react in an aghast, shuddering manner seeing some "wicked" folding fighting knife displayed as evidence, as sharp blades can sometimes have an effect on people that guns might not evoke.)

To possibly "stir the pot" of this topic, I'll go out on a limb and offer that my LEOSA weapon choices for out-of-state road trips have become either a .38 Spl snub, or a snub and a LCP .380 ... versus a 9 or .40 ... and I'm considering only taking one of my LCP's for my next road trip.

Now, everybody go ahead and freak out ...

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Round n Round She Goes ! Where She Stops No One No's ! But Choose As If Your life Depends On Your Chose , Because It Does !

Fastbolt, Take a look at the HPR 90 gr JHP. According to the test run by ShootingtheBull.com it meets the specs set up by the FBI. I agree, the LCP is nice to carry.

This caliber debate can (and probably will) go on & on. But really I think the most effective caliber is the one you can get the most hit's with.

I carry a .380 most of the time, sometimes a 9mm & sometimes a .40, but those particular pistols in those calibers I do very well with.

Not all guns are the same.

WOW! Unbelievable resurrection!

I find it idiotic that people continually worrie about Caliber. Carry what you shoot the best. All this you hear about 380 isn't enough 9mm isn't enough is total bs IMHO. Guy I went to hs with died from 2 shots of 22lr. Over a 20 dollar bag of marijuana. Co worker of mine got robbed leaving the casino downtown took 3 rounds of 380 2 in the shoulder and one in the lower abdomen and was only out of work for 5 weeks. SHOT PLACEMENT PEOPLE !!!

Handguns are a compromise to begin with and I'm too old to dress around the gun any longer. Besides, social norms often require me not to appear armed. My EDC is still a J frame and that is unlikely to change. When required to dress up my M&P .380 comes out of the safe and I feel well protected with either firearm as long as the M&P continues to function 100%.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I am not an expert but a fairly good shot with handguns. With my J frame 38 I am lucky to get three out of five rounds on the target at 30 feet. With my .380 PPK I can make one ragged hole at the same distance.

__________________
USAF Retired/VN Vet

Why those results with the .38 spl? Recoil? Short barrel affecting accuracy?

__________________
Stay protected my friends.

Well, I've drawn blood with both the 380 and 38 Spl....Results was far less than needed.

If limited to a .355/.356 diameter light weight HP bullet or
a .357 diameter bullet of a heavier sharp shouldered SWC type....
I would opt for the heavier slug in 38 Special.


.
*In closing, from personal experience,
with handguns, I carry nothing less than a 44s and 45s .

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Walther PPK. 2 rounds of Buffalo Bore 90 grain JHP and 5 rounds of Buffalo Bore 100 grain hard cast.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Bob

GO TO YOUTUBE, AND VIEW ALL OF THE TESTS OF BOTH CALIBERS IN BALLISTIC GEL. THE OVERALL WINNER WILL BE THE SPEER GOLD DOT, .38 SPL +P, 135 GR BONDED, SWCHP. ITS DESIGNED FOR SHORT BARRELS, AND FEATURES LOW FLASH POWDER TO HELP MAINTAIN YOUR NIGHT VISION……

SUCH A COMPARISON WILL NOT ONLY ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHICH CALIBER IS BETTER, BUT WHICH LOAD IS MOST EFFECTIVE….

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THE RESEARCH YOURSELF, YOU CAN TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. I'VE TAKEN THE TIME TO DO IT, AND I BET MY LIFE ON A 642-1 STUFFED WITH GOLD DOTS…….

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Many years ago I responded to a "Man Down" call and found a very large male laying in his front yard quite dead. Not a mark on him yet witnesses insisted on hearing a shot before finding the victim. Upon exam at the hospital we found he was shot in the underarm w/a .22 that traveled across his massive chest cavity and lodged in his heart.

We only discovered the .22 b/c of an Xray. The armpit was hairy and the bullet wound sealed itself upon entry leaving only a spot of blood embedded in the hair.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)