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  #101  
Old 05-10-2015, 04:23 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Of course this debate is pointless. Everyone knows that .45ACP is the only proper caliber for a self-defense handgun.

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Originally Posted by mule69 View Post
I am not an expert but a fairly good shot with handguns. With my J frame 38 I am lucky to get three out of five rounds on the target at 30 feet. With my .380 PPK I can make one ragged hole at the same distance.
One ragged hole at 10 yards? Then this should be easy for you: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
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  #102  
Old 05-10-2015, 04:24 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Many years ago I responded to a "Man Down" call and found a very large male laying in his front yard quite dead. Not a mark on him yet witnesses insisted on hearing a shot before finding the victim. Upon exam at the hospital we found he was shot in the underarm w/a .22 that traveled across his massive chest cavity and lodged in his heart.

We only discovered the .22 b/c of an Xray. The armpit was hairy and the bullet wound sealed itself upon entry leaving only a spot of blood embedded in the hair.
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  #103  
Old 05-10-2015, 04:54 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Like Fastbolt, I too am a retired LEO/LEOSA permit holder. I am somewhat ashamed to say that during my law enforcement career I have gone through at least 10 different firearms, usually in the 9mm/.40/.38 special range, which for the most part stayed home because the guns ended up being too big or bulky for me to comfortably carry on a daily basis while off duty. That included a stainless S&W airweight bodyguard in .38!!

About a year ago I decided to get damn serious about what I was going to carry, carefully considering what was I going to realistically carry, religiously, every day. I did a lot of research and I have been carrying, pretty much all day every day, a S&W Bodyguard .380 in an Uncle George's wallet holster. It is confortable, I am confident in the gun and my shooting abilities, and it is what works for me. The choice I have made sure beats the Ruger P95, Glock 23, S&W .38 airweight, etc., etc. that ended up either staying home or, at best, stayed in the center console of my car instead of on my person where it belonged.
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  #104  
Old 05-10-2015, 05:00 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Of course this debate is pointless. Everyone knows that .45ACP is the only proper caliber for a self-defense handgun.
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!
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  #105  
Old 05-10-2015, 11:39 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Many years ago I responded to a "Man Down" call and found a very large male laying in his front yard quite dead. Not a mark on him yet witnesses insisted on hearing a shot before finding the victim. Upon exam at the hospital we found he was shot in the underarm w/a .22 that traveled across his massive chest cavity and lodged in his heart.

We only discovered the .22 b/c of an Xray. The armpit was hairy and the bullet wound sealed itself upon entry leaving only a spot of blood embedded in the hair.
IF YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN DUPLICATE THIS SHOT ON A REGULAR BASIS, THEN CARRY A .22. ALSO MAKE PRE-PAID FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS, SO AS NOT TO BE A BURDEN TO YOUR FAMILY…...
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  #106  
Old 05-10-2015, 11:46 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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The .380 is a child's cartridge.
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  #107  
Old 05-11-2015, 01:41 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
So if we don't call it stopping power, what do we call it?
Kinetic Energy because force is a vector while work and energy are scalar. Think of KE as the amount of work an object (bullet) does while coming to rest i.e. hitting a target.

So the best pistol cartridge would be the one with the highest KE greatest expansion and doesn't over penetrate.

Now everyone do their homework and tell me which one it is
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  #108  
Old 05-11-2015, 07:02 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by rjm6120 View Post

About a year ago I decided to get damn serious about what I was going to carry, carefully considering what was I going to realistically carry, religiously, every day. I did a lot of research and I have been carrying, pretty much all day every day, a S&W Bodyguard .380 in an Uncle George's wallet holster. It is confortable, I am confident in the gun and my shooting abilities, and it is what works for me. The choice I have made sure beats the Ruger P95, Glock 23, S&W .38 airweight, etc., etc. that ended up either staying home or, at best, stayed in the center console of my car instead of on my person where it belonged.
Yeah... I've got quite a few "best" caliber guns holding down the safe while the LCP is out working for a living.
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  #109  
Old 05-11-2015, 07:38 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Yeah... I've got quite a few "best" caliber guns holding down the safe while the LCP is out working for a living.
Awesome post, Phil.
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  #110  
Old 05-11-2015, 09:04 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Yeah... I've got quite a few "best" caliber guns holding down the safe while the LCP is out working for a living.
I think I'd rather get shot than shoot the LCP lol. It was one of my most painful guns to shoot. I think thats my main gripe about the small pocket .380's. But I understand in a scenario where you really need it, shooting comfort is probably the last thing on your mind.
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  #111  
Old 05-11-2015, 11:33 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by jdickson397 View Post
Now be careful here guys. I am asking about cartridge effectiveness and ballistics not about the model of handgun. Thanks.

The one you shoot the most accurately, one handed, and on the move. Shot placement is all that matters.

A CASE FOR YOUR CARRY CALIBER AND WHY THEY ALL SUCK
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  #112  
Old 05-11-2015, 04:50 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Well, I'm back from my road trip out-of-state.

Seems this battery bunny thread topic still has some juice left.

FWIW, at the last moment before leaving I packed one of my J's ... (M&P 340 w/lock , which is my favorite of the pair - and the other one is without a lock) ... in one of my suitcases. It never left the luggage throughout the trip. My LCP, on the hand, rested snugly in its pocket holster in my jeans whenever I thought it appropriate ... and whenever I wasn't sampling some local craft brews.

Now, lots of folks still seem to put a lot of emphasis on handgun size, capacity, caliber and even special ammunition choices.

Cool. Free country.

However, when I'm the one doing the qualifying or training, I'm still going to be looking at the individual's ability to know the applicable laws (and agency policies, for the cops), their familiarization and safe handling of whatever it is their using ... and what their targets look like when they're required to demonstrate their skills under some of the more difficult & demanding drills.

It's all well and good to be able to produce some excellent slow-fire handgun groups on targets which demonstrate good basic handgunning skills.

However, I've seen my fair share of skilled shooters (including other instructors and even competitors at the local or international level), who seemed to unpredictably lose their edge when they were faced with new and different shooting drills, courses-of-fire, differently done time requirements ... and having to make a judgment in an unexpected shoot/don't shoot situation (meaning surprise threat or non-threat targets).

So, caliber discussions are all fine and entertaining, but it's the user, and the circumstances for which the user has prepared themselves, that's probably still going to drive the user's demonstrated performance in any particular situation ... and also have an influence on whether or not their choice of gun/caliber/ammunition is as relevant as they may think it is, when the choice is being made in the luxury of the situation not being unexpected, chaotic, evolving & dynamic.

Just some thoughts, folks.

I don't shill guns, calibers or ammunition ... but I do tend to have an interest in how well a shooter makes the choice to develop and upgrade their ability to actually perform with whatever it is they've chosen, or been required to use.
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  #113  
Old 05-11-2015, 05:54 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Fastbolt,

Are you implying that a 30 handicapper needs a bit more than Ping clubs to become a scratch golfer?
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  #114  
Old 05-11-2015, 06:26 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Fastbolt,

Are you implying that a 30 handicapper needs a bit more than Ping clubs to become a scratch golfer?
Oh my, you're speaking a foreign language to me.

Now, if we were at my cigar club, one of the other guys could translate for me.

However, I'll take a swing at it ...

If you mean an amateur with such a huge handicap probably needs more than a high quality "forgiving" set of clubs in order to become a "zero" handicapper, let alone someone hoping to reach professional level... then yes, that's what I was alluding to ... I think.

Lots of folks generally prefer to "buy" the potential for better "personal" performance by substituting attention to equipment investment instead of personal skills investment.

Better equipment isn't a bad thing, though.

I used to prefer the "better quality" Rabbit's Feet when I was a youngster, meaning the larger, evenly shaped white/grey ones that weren't stunted and dyed some weird color.
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  #115  
Old 05-11-2015, 09:58 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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To the OP: it depends.

Barrel length on a .38 special (standard pressure) will effect the ballistics. A typical 2 inch barrel 38 standard pressure, in MY OPINION, is about equivalent in 'real world' effectiveness to a similarly sized .380 auto.

The .38 will have heavier bullets (158 gr.). The .380 will have lighter bullets at higher velocities (95 gr.).

A 2 inch snub nose and a 3.6 inch .380 auto are roughly the same dimensions length and height and weight. The .38 will be a little fatter. I'm comparing things like a 642 to a Sig P232, or a model 60 to a Makarov PM 380.

The .380 auto will have higher capacity. A .38 will have 5 shots and a slow reload. A .380, like a Sig P232 or Walther PPK/S, will have 8 shots and a faster reload. That's significant, IMO.


I really think it's a wash. Pick which platform you like, practice with it, and the differences will disappear.
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:19 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by RubenZ View Post
I think I'd rather get shot than shoot the LCP lol. It was one of my most painful guns to shoot. I think thats my main gripe about the small pocket .380's. But I understand in a scenario where you really need it, shooting comfort is probably the last thing on your mind.
I won an LCP at a recent auction. First time I shot it I was bleeding and had a bruised trigger finger. I have since put the Hogue grip sleeve and the Garrison grip extenders on it. It's a whole new gun now that fits in my hand.
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Old 05-11-2015, 11:18 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Interesting! I,have a bunch of .38 snubs (4 J. & 1 k) and two .380s. Run the 158s across a chrinograph and I think you will be disappointed in the velocity out of the shorties. Even so, a 42 is my favorite Cary piece. I like the Colt 1909 pocket when I want flat. I gave the LCP to a daughter.

Neither is a thirty or fifty yard - or feet for that matter - gun. They are ment to get someone off you, up close and personal. I have yet to feed my Colt a HP that it didn't like. Both work up close. Shoot for the eyes.

A little aside. S.N. was a real bad ***** in a small west Texas town. Three things. He might cheat at cards and dice. He was not the likeable sort. He had the only .32 gun in town that shot every time without jamming. Last I knew, he had killed five - all self defense, according to him and the occasional witness.

Better have a North American Arms .22 than nothing.

Jack

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  #118  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:17 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Trente Ocho Especial!

I was trying to make my answer different...
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Old 05-14-2015, 12:00 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Of course this debate is pointless. Everyone knows that .45ACP is the only proper caliber for a self-defense handgun.


One ragged hole at 10 yards? Then this should be easy for you: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:12 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Cute. Enjoyed it.

I've always liked that actor, too.

One way I sometimes try to put things into perspective for some of the guys & gals with whom I work (and help train, as an instructor), is to put them through some more demanding drills which they aren't expecting (and for which they're probably unprepared, not having had the chance to see other shooters perform them ).

Then, when the results are randomly placed misses and "beach ball" size patterns, I ask them whether they think any existing personal 'preference' for caliber (or even a favored brand of JHP) is something they think is really going to offset that sort of skillset issue.

Ditto not making the right choice in a "judgment" scenario, meaning correctly seeing and identifying a threat/non-threat (shoot/no-shoot).

Equipment (meaning caliber, capacity, etc) is still just equipment, and it's the user influence that's probably going to drive things in one direction or another. Not everyone seems as interested in focusing on making better choices for "improving the user", as they seem to do for improving the equipment.
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:29 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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IMHO, there are a couple issues that have to be considered.

1. All handguns are inadequate when you need to stop an assailant intent on killing you.

About half the time people who get shot react by thinking "OMG!?!? I'VE BEEN SHOT!!!! I DON'T LIKE BEING SHOT!!! I DON'T WANT TO GET SHOT MORE SO I BETTER FALL DOWN OR DO WHAT THE MAN SAYS!!!"

That's a psychological stop and all that's needed is a caliber big enough for the assailant to notice he's been shot.

It's the other half that are problematic the guys who get shot and keep coming. For those folks you need either a CNS hit to shut down the nervous system, or a hit in the upper chambers of the heart or the large arteries above the heart to create a rapid loss of blood pressure. It won't matter what caliber you use to achieve that, you just need one with enough penetration to get the job done. The FBI standard is 12" to 18".

2. A lot depends on barrel length, especially in small calibers. A .380 ACP load launching a 90 gr Hornady XTP at 1000 to 1050 fps will achieve 12"-13" of penetration with expansion to 1.5 times the original diameter. It will get the job done just fine. However it needs a 3.5" to 4" barrel for that to happen.

The current fad in .380s is in short 2.75" or thereabouts barrels that don't let a load like that generate enough velocity to get adequate expansion or penetration. If you're using one of those you're better with hollow points. You need more hits (statistically) with an FMJ to create the same wound channel area and get the same potential for a CNS or cardiac hit as you'd need with an expanded hollow point.

Unfortunately, those small .380 pistols are not so easy or fun to shoot, so people shoot them less often, shoot them less well, and get both fewer shots and fewer hits on target in any given period of time under rapid fire, stressful conditions.

I much prefer a PP or PPK/S that I can shoot very accurately and very well to a shorter, light pistol that is easier to carry but much harder to shoot effectively. And frankly all day carry with a PP or PPK/S is a non problem.

3. The same logic applies to the .38 Special. A standard pressure .38 Special in a 1 7/8 or 2 1/8" revolver will not perform like a standard pressure .38 Special load in a 4" service revolver. The latter will make the FBI minimum with a good load, while the latter will not. In this case, you need to be shooting a good .38+P load in the snub nose to get adequate performance equal to the standard pressure load in a 4' service revolver.

On the other hand, a .38 +P load in a lightweight .38 snub nose may be more than some people can shoot well. When I carry a .38 snub nose, I carry a comfortably gripped steel framed Model 36 or Model 60, and I keep it loaded with a .38 +P load. I know, based on lots of practice, that I can shoot rapidly and accurately with this combination and that if I do my part the bullet will do it's part.

I do not carry .357 Mag in my Model 60 because the marginal increase in bullet effectiveness is not enough to offset the loss in accuracy, or rate of fire.

4. With both calibers three things matter:

- bullet placement
- bullet placement, and
- bullet placement.

In summary, both the .380 ACP and .38 Special can be adequate loads - or not, depending on what you shoot them in and how well you are capable of shooting them.

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Old 05-14-2015, 07:45 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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The .380 guys should be comparing to .25 and .22 if they are looking for validation for their caliber choice, not .38.
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:08 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Of course this debate is pointless. Everyone knows that .45ACP is the only proper caliber for a self-defense handgun.


One ragged hole at 10 yards? Then this should be easy for you: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
I do okay.
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Old 05-15-2015, 03:05 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rock_castle View Post
The .380 guys should be comparing to .25 and .22 if they are looking for validation for their caliber choice, not .38.
It's not an issue of validation, but rather a straight up comparison.

You're also missing the larger point that not all .38 special loads are going to be adequate for self defense in a snub nose .38, just like not all .380 ACP loads are going to be adequate for self defense - especially in a short barreled .380.

.380 ACP

I've stated very clearly that to get 12" of penetration, you need a load that propels a 90 gr XTP at 1000 to 1050 fps, and that will take a barrel length of 3.4 to 3.9". The XTP works because it is a bullet with only moderate expansion to 1.5x it's diameter, rather than 1.6 or 1.65, but to do that it still needs sufficient velocity.

In other words, I'm also stating that all of the sub compact and micro sized .380 ACP pistols are a very poor choice for self defense, not just because they are hard to shoot well, but also because the terminal ballistics are not sufficient.

.38 Special, .38 +P and .357 Magnum

I've also clearly stated that in a snub nose .38, the .38 Special is just not adequate for self defense either. It will come up short in terms of penetration and expansion as well in a 2" barrel.

If you're going to carry a 1 7/8" - 2 1/8" .38, you need to be shooting .38 +P loads in it.

Velocity comparisons in .38, .38 +P and .357 in 1 7/8", 2 1/8", 4" and 6" barrels

I really enjoy the .38 and a I have number of them. To demonstrate the differences in velocity, I took a Model 36, a Model 36-10 (1 7/8" barrels), a Model 60 2 1/8" barrel), and 4" and 6" Model 19s to the range with standard pressure 158 gr .38 special, 125 gr .38 Special +P, and 158 gr .357 loads, using 10 shots over a chronograph to determine average velocity and standard deviation.

.38 Special 158 gr LSWC

1 7/8" Model 36: mean velocity 670 fps, SD = 16.88 fps
1 7/8" Model 36-10: mean velocity 670 fps, SD = 18.26 fps
2" Model 60: mean velocity 674 fps, SD = 13.41 fps
4" Model 19: mean velocity 748 fps, SD = 13.68 fps
6" Model 19: mean velocity 794 fps, SD = 10.47 fps

.38 Special +P 125 gr XTP

1 7/8" Model 36-10: mean velocity 929 fps, SD = 29.70 fps
2" Model 60: mean velocity 951 fps, SD = 24.11 fps
4" Model 19: mean velocity 1100 fps, SD = 25.18 fps
6" Model 19: mean velocity 1186 fps, SD = 30.09 fps

.357 Magnum 158 gr JHP

2" Model 60: mean velocity 1065 fps, SD = 8.60 fps
4" Model 19: mean velocity 1214 fps, SD = 11.69 fps
6" Model 19: mean velocity 1250 fps, SD = 23.85 fps

What does it mean for self defense?

With a standard pressure .38 Special you'll only lose about 45-50 fps going from a 6" barrel to a 4" barrel, and when you go from a 4" barrel to a 2 1/8" barrel you'll lose another 75 fps to a rather sedate 675 fps. Fortunately, going to 1 7/8" only costs you another 5 fps. But 670-675 fps even with a 158 gr bullet just isn't enough to get the job done.

With a 125 gr .38 +P load you'll lose about 85 fps going from a 6" barrel to a 4" barrel. However the big hit comes when you go from a 4" barrel to a 2 1/8" barrel where you lose a full 150 fps. Going shorter still to 1 7/8" will cost you another 20 fps, for a total loss of 170 fps compared to a 4" service revolver.

The good news here is that even at at 950 fps with the XTP you'll get expansion (as you are still 150 fps over the lower end of the envelope) and you'll get 12"-13" penetration.

With a 158 gr .357 Magnum JHP, you'll only lose about 35 fps going from 6" to 4", but once again you'll lose a full 150 fps dropping down to a 2" barrel.

Comparing the 158 gr JHP .357 mag to the 125 gr XTP .38 +P in my Model 60, I'm losing about 115 fps and 33 grains in bullet weight with the 125 gr XTP load, but it shoots precisely to point of aim at 7-10 yards with excellent accuracy, and the recoil is very manageable even over the course of a 100 rounds in a single range session. It's a load that inspires a great deal of confidence, and one that encourages a lot of practice. The level of recoil and the muzzle flash and blast are also not all that much more significant than the standard pressure 158 gr .38 Special and the point of impacts are close, so cheap practice with 158 gr LSWCs is a viable option.

In contrast, the 158 gr .357 load isn't what you can call comfortable on the first cylinder and it starts to hurt on the second cylinder full of ammo. The muzzle blast and flash are also obnoxious and it's not a load I'd ever want to fire indoors with no hearing protection.

-----

Based on years of shooting the .38 Special and understanding it's limitations, particularly in a short barrel revolver, I'm comfortable carrying a 5 shot J-frame with a good performing +P load, but I feel distinctly under gunned with standard pressure .38 Specials loaded in a Model 60 or a Model 36.

I don't feel less well armed with a PP loaded with 90 gr XTPs, than I do with my Model 60 with the 125 gr XTP +P load. The 90r XTP will get the job done, and I have 7+1 in the pistol, compared to just 5 (and a slower reload) in the Model 60.
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:41 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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BB57, the .380 isn't my first choice but take a look at the latest tests run by shootingthebull.com. He got consistent 12" penetration with expansion from several loads running the XTPs. Not bad for a gun that weighs 12 oz. fully loaded and slips in the front pocket of a pair of dress pants.
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Dandecoteau Dandecoteau is offline
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Well, the cartridges won't do much for you, unless you throw it really really hard at someone.
The bullet on the other hand, I'd say 38 special
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:47 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Default Consider This 380 ACP Ammo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
Yesterday it was 38 all day long. Today its dependent on the load. Both have gotten better but the 380 has improved the most. What you have to answer is what are you best at using? Oh and what ammo can you find.
Have you checked out Buffalo Bore's 380 +P 100 gr. flat nosed
hard cast bullet ammo? I keep looking for an independent review of this ammo but__BB's description of what to expect from this and he lists his "personal" 380 pistols and the stats__is impressive.
Over penetration is likely assured, however. (I think)
I received an answer if this kind of bullet was going to be manufactured in 9mm +P. Answer> "Soon".
This kind of bullet is often used for big game hunting.
If his description (still would like some independent review) is anywhere near accurate some of these 380s could do the job.
I fired a box of this in my P232 and it went without an issue__Bang every time.

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Old 05-15-2015, 08:53 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Oh, fun! We're back.

Now my contribution to the anecdotal info:

Gunshot wounds I have known:

.38 Special: One round 158 gr. +P JSP to armpit. Shootee outran shooter despite running into a large elm tree. Later passed out from blood loss while trying to attack yours truly with two knives.

.38 Special: One round (don't recall load) between the eyes. Continued to struggle (briefly) with other combatant, then collapsed. Was still alive in vegetative state when the other party was sent off for agg assault 6 months later.

.380 Auto: One shot (ball) to right temple. No penetration. Created beautiful symmetrical incision over top of skull & exited behind left ear. Walked out of ER with Excedrin Headache #380 2 hours later and lived to keep the gene pool safe for people dumb enough to play Russian Roulette with a semi-auto.

Three others for perspective.

.45 ACP: One round 230 gr ball between eyes. DRT

.22 LR: one HP round to chest: aorta severed. DRT

.30-30: one round 170 gr SP to chest at 3 feet: performed radical mastectomy but shootee was in good enough shape 3 months later to plead for leniency for the shooter when he was sentenced for agg assault.

Conclusions? I own at least one of each of the above calibers and am able to defend myself with any of them.

I normally carry a 642 for multiple reasons, none of which involve brute power or algebra. In short, it is reliable, concealable, chambers modern expanding ammo and I shoot it well.

There have been a few times I wished I had a gun, but the only time I wished I had a bigger gun involved a porcupine. There a several people alive today because they knew I would shoot them and therefore spared us both the experience.
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Old 05-24-2015, 09:38 AM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I have used snub .38 revolvers for thirty plus years. Never owned or used any .380 handgun and have had an aversion to them. If I had to use a bottom feeder that was less than 9mm, I would seek out a Beretta 81 or Walther .32 and buy Euro-spec 7.65 ammo by the case. One to the chest and one to the head. I read somewhere years ago that .32 ball penetrated better than .380 ball and had a little less recoil. YMMV.
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:41 PM
Shorty 45 MK2 Shorty 45 MK2 is offline
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I say neither as this thread is still going and not stopped!

Honestly, I feel ok with either even carry both, but would vote .38...
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Old 05-24-2015, 04:16 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty 45 MK2 View Post
I say neither as this thread is still going and not stopped!
Well, both calibers have had several decades during which to become a little entrenched in our consideration and experience. Hardly surprising.

Nowadays, however, the apparent heavy emphasis on what it means to be a "duty caliber" has carried over and affected how a lot of folks seem to try and view the .38 S&W Spl and the .380 ACP against the larger "service/duty" calibers.

The "yardsticks" often used to measure the potential effectiveness and "performance" of the usual duty calibers, and the ammunition available, have caused a bit of disagreement on the potential "effectiveness" of these small calibers for personal defense roles.

I suspect both are going to remain with us for some time into the foreseeable future.
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Old 05-24-2015, 10:52 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Never ceases to set me back when I read about the best caliber for self defense and the advice/comments that follow. To those that say a .380 is useless, I have to ask how and why you came to that assumption. And I do mean assumption. How many here have ever had to use a firearm, no matter the caliber, to even comment on what is or isn't effective. As stated in a few posts, is a .22 to the eye more effective than a .454 Casull miss? I'd think so. Time and time again I read about short barreled shotguns or AR's for home defense over a handgun and it makes me laugh. The "mystique" of a high powered firearm seems to take precedent over the users ability to use ANY firearm effectively. Doesn't make any sense. Guess my question is, how many here that commented have had a .380, OR .38, let you down in a situation of life or death dependent on that caliber? None? So, how can you base a decision on pure assumption? My father was an LEO from the late 50's up to the early 70's when he then went into homicide and did EXTENSIVE research on a per basis. His favorite saying was "a well placed .22 short is more effective than 6 misses with a .44". Think about that. Firepower is only as good as well placed shots. There are exceptions to every rule but to say a .380 is useless as a defense cartridge is absurd. There isn't a caliber on this planet that's useless if it finds it's mark. Is a .45 acp in the leg more effective than a .380 in the forehead to stop an aggressor? Food for thought.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:36 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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From the link I posted a couple of years ago. When the tally is complete there doesn't appear to be much of a difference!!

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%


.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%


OF COURSE, IN SOME AREAS YOU CAN'T BEAT A SIMPLE TWENTY-TWO:

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

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Old 05-27-2015, 07:36 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I am more of an amateur when it comes to studying and analyzing ballistic information. Numbers, as in the business world, can be made to relay to the reader whatever the presenter wants to portray- no matter what.

Just a dumb, quick comment- if the .380 is not a preferred defensive caliber, why would Glock sell two models here in the US for LEOs' only- the G25 and G28?

I would think if this caliber were not somewhat effective, even as a backup pistol, it would not even be offered. Who knows, maybe Glock should come out with a pocket .22?
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:10 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spistols View Post
...

Just a dumb, quick comment- if the .380 is not a preferred defensive caliber, why would Glock sell two models here in the US for LEOs' only- the G25 and G28?

I would think if this caliber were not somewhat effective, even as a backup pistol, it would not even be offered. ...
Glock originally developed those models for international sales to countries where the common population wasn't allowed to own guns chambered in calibers commonly considered to be military/police calibers. Since they didn't meet the "points" requirements for import into the US for general sale, they were restricted to "exempt" status buyers.
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Old 05-27-2015, 06:42 PM
Wyatt p. Tato Wyatt p. Tato is offline
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I did carry a J frame, but went to a .380. The .380 is easy to shoot, carries 6 rounds, six more can be reloaded more quickly that 5 in the J frame. The J frame has locked itself. The .380 has been 100% reliable. The .380 is pleasant to shoot, The J is not.
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:12 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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On youtube tnoutdoors9 does some 38 ammo testing in ballistic gel and some of it is quite interesting .

He also has tested 9mm and 45 I believe .

Worth watching some ammo doesn't perform as well as others and much has to do with barrel length which can reduce velocity drastically the shorter the barrel is.
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:51 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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According to the study that was referred to, it really doesn't make much difference what caliber is used so carry whatever is most comfortable, I do. I like my 9mm Shield but I have some really nasty Pow'rBall bullets made by Cor-Bon for my .380s that have both velocity and expansion and won't jam like other hollow points. If you're defending your home, get something bigger than a handgun and then you don't have to worry about this silly debate. If bigger were always better, the FBI wouldn't be going from a .40 back to the 9mm, would they?
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:43 PM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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.380 cartridges have improved considerably but if they were as effective as 9mm, .38 spl .40 or .45 police and the FBI would be carrying them. They don't have to stopping power unless hitting the Central Nervous System.

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Old 01-14-2017, 08:04 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:44 PM
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By Greg Ellifritz Alternative view of stopping power, it seems for handgun rounds that 32 ACP produces the highest % actually incapacitated by one shot with the 2nd lowest number of rounds fired.

Higher accuracy, better head or torso shot potential accuracy and very high end of fight potential.

I have shot 32 ACP and can say using a Walther PP it was amazingly accurate though the trigger was heavy and sights hard to see.

A fast shooting accurate small caliber gun might be the best on paper.
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Old 01-21-2017, 01:15 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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A lot of women prefer to carry a .380 simply because of the compactness and its light weight and ability to fit easily into a purse. Provided the woman is well versed in handling an automatic and the inherent danger of there always being "one in the chamber" it can be a good choice. My daughter carries a Baretta .380 and I told her to look at this video by Shooting The Bull and choose one of the XTP rounds that he favors.
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Old 01-21-2017, 01:56 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I had read that the 380 is basically a 9mm with a small Case so a 38 would be more powerful.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:15 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Originally Posted by e3mrk View Post
I had read that the 380 is basically a 9mm with a small Case so a 38 would be more powerful.
This is fact:

The .380 gets good velocity with a little lighter bullet. That's with a 3 3/4" barrel. A micro pistol isn't going to get that. I've mentioned in other posts that a lot of famous people that were done in by a .380 that wouldn't argue their effectiveness, especially at very close range. Ask Mr. & Mrs. Archduke Franz Ferdinand for one.

This is opinion:


As per stupid arguments that I've made in the past, I'd go for a heavier bullet in the .380 as long as it could get about 850 fps and with a bullet designed to perform at that velocity.
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Old 01-23-2017, 02:33 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Some modern .380acp ammo can approach the performance of standard pressure .38spl, and you typically get one or two more rounds in the pistols they are chambered for. The extra two rounds may, or may not mean the difference between life and death depending on the unforeseeable scenario. However, the .38spl+P is clearly superior to any .380 round out there for sure and most modern snubbies are built to handle the .38spl+P just fine.

Then there is the issue of reliability, which I know the OP did not ask about but which must be mentioned. Small .380 pocket pistols are not exactly known for their outstanding reliability, while the reliability of .38spl snubbies is such that's it's not even worth thinking about.

It's the reliability factor as to why I prefer the .38spl. over the .380acp. in a pocket gun more then anything.

Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 01-23-2017 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:08 AM
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fatcat3 fatcat3 is offline
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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I'm willing to bet that someone popped with ether one wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and would be preoccupied too care. Great camp fire/forum discussion but don't mean a tinkers darn in the real world.

What your willing to carry, so you have it when needed. What you shoot best.
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:52 AM
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Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto? Which cartridge is more effective for self defense - 38 Special or 380 Auto?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdickson397 View Post
Now be careful here guys. I am asking about cartridge effectiveness and ballistics not about the model of handgun. Thanks.
Here is a good read:

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

Summed up for those that do not want to click:

Quote:
Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.

While both the .380 ACP and .38 sp can obviously be lethal; the .38 sp is more likely to incapacitate an attacker when used in a BUG role.

BUG--Infrequently used, but when needed, it must be 100% reliable because of the extreme emergency situation the user is dealing with. Generally secreted in pockets, ankle holsters, body armor holsters, etc... Often covered in lint, grime, and gunk. By their very nature, usually applied to the opponent in an up close and personal encounter, many times involving contact shots. A small .38 sp revolver is more reliable in these situations than a small .380 ACP pistol, especially with contact shots or if fired from a pocket.
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