Now be careful here guys. I am asking about cartridge effectiveness and ballistics not about the model of handgun. Thanks.

If a labratory test were conducted where, under controlled conditions,
the EXACT same defensive scenario could be played out with the ONLY
variable being the calibre (.38 special or .380acp)...then we could obtain
an answer to this question. Anything else is simple a matter of preference
or opinion.

38 Spl, by a fairly substantial margin.

Either unless you miss.

The heavier bullet always wins.

38spl 158gr over a .380 95gr every day of the week..

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Compare typical loads. A 95 grn ball at probably 850 out of the typical LCP or similar 380 pocket auto, vs lets say the Buffalo Bore 158 SWC at an "honest" 850 fps out of a 2" 38 spl: the same velocity but 66% more bullet. The numbers come out different for different loadings in each caliber, but the 38 spl comes out way ahead every time. Even the 38 spl target wadcutter (148 gr bullet at 700 fps) has 18% less velocity but 55% more bullet. Calculating the power factor (bullet weight times velocity) is a good way to compare loads, assuming similar bullet performance.

Here you go

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Very interesting read, thanks for posting.

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Minimize the variables

In a lab? 38 special. Otherwise which ever one you shoot better with.

I have carried both the .380 and the .38 special for many years. I have to go with the earlier posters comments. I carry the .38 special simply because there is more bullet.
I read the above mentioned article and agree that bullet placement is key, but in a self defense situation, odds are one is not able to make that perfect head shot. Shoot center mass with a heavier bullet. My opinion only.

.38, no argument. Especially if you get into the +P range.

have to agree with the 38 spl.

The one you have with you when you need it...

I agree with that!

I've seen guys killed by both (and one shot to boot), and guys who have survived being hit by each. I've seen guys killed by .22 shorts, and guys survive .45 ACP. Shot placement is the key. But I'd still opt for the larger projectile at the same given velocity.

Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen . . . everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

The .38 Spl 158-gr LSWC and the .380 95-gr FMJ are both capable of accurate placement and adequate penetration (I've never seen underpenetration on a human target in a shooting case involving either). Which can you shoot most accurately with, with your gun? And which can you control better for those follow-up shots that so often seem necessary?

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Now go make God proud...

For me it is no contest. The 38 Special because of the heavier bullet. It's a no brainer AFAIAC.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

While the 9mm is close on a lot of comparisons, I think the .38 will beat out the .380 by quite a margin. I trust this guy and all of his data.
Ballistics 101 | All the ballistic charts. Finally, in one place

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Still just a kid at heart

I'll take the 38 for the reasons mentioned above and because the 380 does nothing for me at all.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I did not find this article at all interesting to read.

I cannot believe anyone is still doing this. Way too many ways to “Stack the deck”. What is next? Shooting some goats sideways through both lungs and timing how long they can stand up. (Inside humor)

Way too much recoil-spring-tension in the straight blowback 380 and the few dip lock models are really new. I am not weak but my wife’s 380 is really hard to chamber the first cartridge and very hard to clear a jam. It is the least shot safe queen in my house. I would sooner confront an intruder with any of my .22 rimfires than her 380. But I have enough real handguns.

The itty bitty case in the 380 cannot hold enough powder for a fair comparison. And you can put itty bitty bullets in 38 specials and shoot its socks off.

They divided the 38 special into standard pressure and +P back in 1974. The inexpensive revolvers and the aluminum frames worried some.
In 1974 the aluminum rims on my 10 speed bike needed to have the bumps tuned out once a month. Now I have a a couple of mountain bikes that never bend aluminum alloy rims.

So, like bicycle aluminum alloy rims, the aluminum used in modern guns is not your grandfathers aluminum alloy.

All my .38 special revolvers are +P rated. Even my aluminum alloy frame Chiefs Special.

Or, better stated perhaps, back when all guns were steel all major companies products could shoot maximum loads for that caliber.

Back when the 44 and 45 long colt was king you needed to stop the enemies cavalryman or his horse. The last time military horses were used was WW1.

The lower powered 38 special loads for old off brand guns is probably only 50 percent better than a 380.

I would estimate the 38 special +P is better by a factor of 2.
(My 1994 Speer reloading manual number 12 gives 380 cal a maximum of 3.7 grains unique for 100 grain bullet for 925 feet per second).
(My 1994 Speer reloading manual number 12 gives 38 special +P a maximum of 6.2 grains of unique for *110 grain bullet for 1165 feet per second)
(*no 100 grain bullets listed in 38 special +P)

More people can shoot better with the 38 special than any handgun anywhere near its power.

That 380 is too short a bullet to push air aside very far. Shoot it into gel at 30 and 50 yards and we can talk about bullet penetration and hollow point expansion.

Bullet energy.

Page 440 of my speer reloading manual number 9 has bullet energy calculation tables.
For the above loads that I last listed I calculate:

The 380 with 100 grain bullet at 925 feet per second comes out to about 190 foot pounds.

The 38 special +P with 110 grain bullet at 1165 feet per second comes out to about 331 foot pounds.

(And the really nice crisp single action trigger pull, if ever needed, is priceless).

(And there is a wide variety of bullets you can put in the different chambers of a revolver, with confidence they will be there when the trigger is pulled and hammer needs to drop).

(Okay I cheated, the 38 special +P used had a 2 inch longer barrel)

since the only thing we have as consistant objective data would be baljel....

the best loads in each caliber from the standard bbl length for police service guns used for each caliber the .38spl gets the nod.

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

Be careful with that!

Bullet energy is a manufacturer's marketing ploy. The 'energy' numbers sound much better than momentum numbers, but I believe momentum is a better indicator of a cartridge's effectiveness.

I have read that John Browning, George Luger and Paul Mauser preferred to use momentum to rate a gun's power.

MATH TIME!!!

Energy (in ft lbs) = Velocity (in fps) squared, divided by 450240 (constant) times bullet weight (in grains).

Example: 45 ACP, 230 gr load: 850*850=722500/450240=1.605*230=369 ft lbs.

Momentum (in lb-f/s) = bullet weight (in grains) divided by 7000 (grains per pound), times velocity (in fps).

Same example as above: 230/7000=.03285*850=27.9 lb-f/s

Compare those numbers with a 9mm:
9mm, 124 gr @ 1120 fps
Muzzle Energy = 345 ft lbs
Momentum = 19.8 lb-f/s


While the energy of these two rounds is very close, the momentum is much greater in the .45acp round, nearly 30% more.

The momentum is what keeps a bullet on course going through bone and tissue. You can easily see the difference shooting steel plates or bowling pins. While the 'energy' is nearly the same, the effect on plates, pins and people will be much greater with the .45.

Think about this: If foot pounds is the force it takes to move an object weighing one pound one foot......

When we shoot a deer weighing 100 pounds with a slug having 2,000 ft/lbs of force (and the bullet never leaves the deer)...

Why doesn't the deer get thrown back 20 feet?

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Kirk / Spock 2020

This is really a complicated subject. An air rifle BB will never kill a grizzly bear. No matter how fast you get that BB moving.

In truck driving school they teach that “when you double your speed your stopping distance increases by 4 times”.

And for some reason experienced hunters never hunt big game with anything less than 180 grain bullets. 200 is better.

Back in the 1960s or 70s I read every issue of Guns and Ammo magazine, and a few others. One article had a writer talking about arrows compared to bullets. He put up some bag of sand hanging from a tree limb (I do not remember the pounds - maybe 10?). He could shoot an arrow through it but not average bullet. It made for a good story that ended up involving sectional density I believe?
(If only Custer had read that article)

I'll defer to a different statistic ...

# of current S&W production revolver models chambered in .38 Special

vs.

# of current S&W production handgun models chambered in .380.

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I'm with the banned ...

I guess a straight-up comparison would be the new Hornady 38 spl 90 gr FTX "Critical Defense Lite" factory load at 1200 fps vs the Hornady 380 acp 90 gr FTX "Critical Defense" load at 1000 fps-- apparently the same bullet but 20% more velocity out of the 38 spl. Per their ballistic chart, that's 25% more muzzle energy, which (as Lost Lake pointed out) shows that energy figures are biased toward high velocity loads. I'm more of a believer in momentum (weight x velocity, aka power factor ) than energy (weight time velocity squared).

Good article. I'm glad the conclusion stated there's no one perfect bullet and no one real bad guy stopper. I have several guns I like to carry for one reason or another and I've been nervous that in the case of an attack, I'd wind up carrying the wrong one. Now I'd like to see an article where they compare the different calibers of hollow points vs. FMJs. I've talked to some shooters that would use nothing but hollow points for defense while others use nothing but FMJs.

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S&W Model 15-3

Decades of lab testing and actual street experience have shown that the 38 FBI load (158gh LSWCHP) is as effective a fight stopper as the 230gr 45acp ball round. Both Facker and the other school both agree on this. The 38spec FBI load is one of the few things they both agree on. Massad Ayoob discusses it at great length in one of his books. The .380 95gr hardball load and the military 38spec 130gr hardball load are probably pretty close to each other.

Assuming you can hit with both, the .38 special by a considerable margin. Shot placement is criteria #1. Adequate penetration is criteria #2. Everything else is academic. 38 special, especially in the +P loading, hits much harder with a heavier bullet.

I've carried both but my go-to gun is the thirty-eight. I can only go w/my experience and during my 30 yr. LEO days I had to use my .38 (FBI +P) and it just works.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

.38 spc. Only time I carry my walther is when I'm wearing a suit and want to look like I'm not carrying my 49.

Don't forget bullet design.....
380 will need a round nose to feed reliably, not enough speed for a hp....
38 Lswchp will leave a larger permanent wound channel.

Energy is Energy. Which ever round delivers the most energy to the target is the one with the most "potential" to do the most damage. Yes terminal Balistics have an effect on how the energy is used to affect said target.
Just look at energy developed and then take into account terminal ballistic qualities and pick the one best suited for the job at hand. There are no magic bullets.

My concern with a .380 would be will it feed hollow points? One may have to buy several boxes of ammo to test different designs. Naturally, this isn't a concern with a .38 spl revolver. Ammunition companies have come a long way with bullets designed for specific calibers/velocities which puts the odds in favor of better terminal performance.

I think I'd still go with a .38 spl, though.

Bill

If you're worried about it, carry both.

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But then, what do I know?

All I'm going to do is rehash what's already been said: A solid hit with a .22 is going to be more effective than a miss with a .45. The bigger bang of a .45 might be 'scarier' than the 'pop' of a .22, but bangs and pops don't stop bad guys.

There's rule #1 Accuracy is King.

The only time I would EVER recommend round nose (AKA FMJ) ammunition is in the .22, .25 or .32, while .22 HP bullets may work well in small game, there is a good likelihood that they will limit penetration in a human target, preventing vital organs being hit, the same with the mouse gun calibers, ASSUMING the .25 and .32 HP bullets function as HPs at all.

All other calibers from .380 and up should be using a good hollow point. I have seen first hand an execution using a .380 with FMJ rounds and about 6 of the 12 rounds were through and through, and this was on a LARGE man. So if your .380 won't fire HP bullets reliably, be prepared for over penetration issues.

Which brings me to my next point. Anyone using FMJ in the larger calibers is being foolish and is asking for collateral damages. In my 23 years of Law Enforcement, the shootings that I have seen with 9mm/.38 involve OVER %50 over-penetrations from using RN or FMJ, fortunately the thugs around here wouldn't know a hollow point if it bit them in the, as Forrest Gump would say: "Buttocks." (which is a story for another time).

Any caliber in the higher-powered category (I include the .38 sp +P and the standard velocity 9mm) should be carried with a quality modern hollow point, otherwise with these more powerful calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, .45 etc) you are almost guaranteeing over-penetration and risking any innocents that might be unseen down range, not to mention if a bullet over-penetrates, you are losing some of your stopping power since the bullet has enough energy/momentum to go through the target and beyond which is A) dangerous and B) wasted energy.

Rule #2. Penetration is Queen, AND a fickle bitch.

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Don

Ok, I went a bit off-track in my last post. To answer the OP's original question, if I were given the choice of carrying a S&W Bodyguard .380 or a 2" Chief's Special in .38, it would be the .38 with the FBI +P 158gr LSWCHPs without hesitation.

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Don

Why, the 38 of course.

It's cooler.

If you're attacked by a calculator or a gelatin Gumby run amok, then I'd say .38spcl is the way to go. However, in the link provided earlier in this thread, folks appear to be defending themselves against human attackers with eerily similar results using .380ACP to .45ACP.

.380ACP
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%


.38spcl
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%

Some might protest such findings due to a gazillion unaccounted for variables. I would say... exactly

I bet you still believe in fairy tales too.

Yesterday it was 38 all day long. Today its dependent on the load. Both have gotten better but the 380 has improved the most. What you have to answer is what are you best at using? Oh and what ammo can you find.

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A republic if you can keep it

And I think this is just hocus pocus muddy water science.

The .38 has much more momentum than the .380! Throw away the fake science 'energy' and 'one-stop-shots' and look at which round has more momentum and oomph.

Okay, if the energy chart thumpers don't believe me...

Shoot a thick phone book with a .38 and then with a .380. Or a metal plate, or anything at your range...

The .38 will rock that sucker a lot more than the .380! It's no different with a person. The bad guy will be rocked more by the .38!

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

You can put a lot more powder and more bullet into a .38 Special than the itty bitty shell of a .380.

Any time you can put more powder and more bullet in a gun it is better. Unless you have some special itty bitty ankle holster you really love.

One shot stops is a deep subject. There seems to be no two people with the same size adrenal glands. No two people on the same illegal drug combination in their system at same time.

However when You are walking down an Alaska stream, when salmon coming in to mate, lay eggs, and die….. Grizzly bears think every stream belongs to them. And unless you have the right rifle they usually do.

Over penetration is considered a bad thing in crowded cities. Out on the ranch it is not. Is it better to shoot half way through the lower body mass of an armed Alpaca rustler -- or shoot all the way through busting his spine or kidney or hipbone.

Ask yourself if you would go hunting Polar Bear with a 30-30. Some people have and still do.

As one hunting writer once stated “yes you can hunt elephants with a .270 rifle. However if you do not have a great first shot he might get really angry and charge. If so you have about a 7 inch triangle target (eye level?) bouncing up and down charging you.

If you shot him with a 458 magnum, and it stimulates a charge, you can shoot another anywhere in his head and he will go down at least long enough to throw your bolt again.

A bit like people and 45 acp or bigger. (Okay 45 acp or .357 mag or 40 S&W or bigger).

I say "depends" where you place the shot...

A 9 mm between the eyes will have much more stopping power than a 44 magnum shot placed on BG's foot!

It might be an even call? A 44 mag to foot is probably not going to leave much foot left.

I think that all other things being equal .38 spl is a superior cartridge because of shooting a heavier bullet at similar or higher velocity so you have a chance of good penetration and useful expansion both. Too many of the .380 loads on the market seem to either give very limited expansion and ok penetration or spectacular expansion and very limited penetration. There are many .38 spl loads, basically any of the popular duty or defense loads in the last 15-20 years, that seem to me to give a better balance of performance. Personally, I MUCH prefer .38 spl.

That doesn't mean that it is always the best choice for a particular situation though. Some people might shoot faster and more accurately with a .380 auto than a .38 airweight snub, so for them the .380 might functionally be more effective.

38 special has more potential.
the key here is to understand the ammo for each.
in a 380 you have a very tight budget. So much so that penetration can become an issue if an expanding bullet is used. Some, including myself, advise the use of FMJ ammo to those who must concede down this far.
38 special typically throws a 158 RN with far more energy.
It has a wider budget to play with and if its typical RN bullet is your base line, you might find that it over penetrates.
as a result, both are reliant upon surgical shot placement and will display similar results.
However, if some of the 38's penetration is traded for expansion, it may be balanced to provide a larger wound with adequate penetration to an overall advantage.

I would advise taking up reloading so as to give yourself access to a wide range of test samples to figure out what that balance point is

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it just needs more voltage

I'll repeat what has already been mentioned. :-)
Generally speaking.......................

A .380 is a round for an automatic

A .38 special is for a revolver.

Power about even, a tad more in a .38 with a heavier bullet.

What do you want to carry? an auto or a revolver? Which are you more accurate shooting ?

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JIM
NRA Pistol Instr

Like people said before,IT'S BULLET PLACEMENT. ANY BULLET NO MATTER WHAT FIREARM WILL EITHER KILL A SUSPECT OR MAKE HIM SAY AND ASK WHY DID I DO THIS FOR?

Jinx, I think you have presented the most cogent argument in the thread. If I can, please let me state it a different way....

"If you believe in the ability of the round you carry to protect you, then it will!"

I have read articles for over 50 years on which round is the most effective. The articles follow the current fashion of the pistoleros. Fashion? Not science? Nope, it is fashion. Most recently, the 40 S&W became fashionable. I think the 40 has gone beyond the fashion stage and we are back to recognizing its limitations.

I have carried primarily 38 Special and 45 ACP over the years, even some 9mm. I now only carry 38 Special. Why? Because I am most comfortable with it. I know how to make the revolvers I own work properly, the 38 will do what I want it to. Can't ask for more than that, and I do not have to try to keep up with changing fashion.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin