"standing your ground" while breaking into home?

[bunkshaner]

just came across this article, this guy kicked in the door of someone with the intent of robbing him (he also had a partner in crime both carrying pistols), feels he shouldn't be prosecuted because he was in fear for his life when he faced the homeowner. Are you freaking serious? If they allow this to happen it will surely cause a lot more of freaking laws hurting our rights while protecting criminals. Am I looking at this the wrong way? Does anyone else think this guy is an idiot?

COLUMBIA, SC: SC Supreme Court stops murder trial, orders hearing on ?Stand Your Ground? defense | Crime | The State

[Murcus]

It is common for the “stand your ground” laws to also have wording that the person who is “standing their ground” must be in a place where they have a lawful right to be in, and not in the process of committing an unlawful act. The mere use of the words that the perpetrator was fearful for his safety will not mitigate the fact he was committing an unlawful act. This will not go anywhere.

[Doug M.]

The actual issue being considered is not about the legal applicability of the defense, but about the procedural issue of when in the court proceedings it can be raised. I suspect that this is an easy case in which to conduct that analysis, since the applicability of it is such a laugher.

[nawilson]

Attorneys are paid to make arguments. They don't have to be good arguments. I am sure it won't go too far.

[TexasArmed]

Still thankful I live in Texas. When he kicked the door in before he ever got sight of me I would be shooting thru the door. Going to the door with a gun in the case of the criminal allows the criminal to get off the first shot. My home, my rules, if my door comes down he goes down with it.

[SMSgt]

In FL, SD is not a viable defense during commission of a crime.

[maddog909]

Any armed idiot breaking into someone else's property should be in fear of losing their life, that comes with the job choice of being a burglar. It doesn't legitimize the use of a stand your ground defense. If it did the criminals would be free to entertain their illegal enterprises. Can't believe that S.C. Courts let this get that far.

[Doug M.]

Folks, read the article more carefully. The question is not whether or not the defense could apply or be used here, which seems unlikely at best, but when it can be raised in the course of proceedings. I'd have to see the pleadings directly to be sure, but the article makes that pretty clear.

[dereksfl]

They can raise it, but they don't have a leg to stand on. (Pardon the pun) Since they were in a commission of a crime. Stand your ground will not apply, at least here in Florida that is how it shakes out legally.

[16thVACav]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

Folks, read the article more carefully. The question is not whether or not the defense could apply or be used here, which seems unlikely at best, but when it can be raised in the course of proceedings. I'd have to see the pleadings directly to be sure, but the article makes that pretty clear.

Guys -

Doug has identified the issue precisely. The only point that the SCSC wants to nail down is when the Stand Your Ground defense should be heard, not whether the defense is available to bad guys (it is not!).

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by TexasArmed

Still thankful I live in Texas. When he kicked the door in before he ever got sight of me I would be shooting thru the door. Going to the door with a gun in the case of the criminal allows the criminal to get off the first shot. My home, my rules, if my door comes down he goes down with it.

You might want to ID the target before you start shooting at it, through the door or not. Mistakes happen.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

You might want to ID the target before you start shooting at it, through the door or not. Mistakes happen.

I have a fairly strong dead bolted door. If it is being kicked down and nobody is identifying themselves as police or fire department, there is little chance of a mistake. The gunfight won't take place inside my apartment.

No, I won't be doing a visual inspection on who is kicking it down. With meth and crack addicts running loose because the jails are to full and some of them doing home invasions,
I won't be their victim for their next drug high.

[JJEH]

It's always the same. The Hobby- and Weekend criminals want to be so bad@$$, but when something happens to them they are either dead or act like cry babies... disgusting!

[Practical]

Why do we call them stand your ground laws rather than self-defense laws?

Stand your Ground seems like a confrontational term that prejudices people into thinking the person defending themselves is 'aggressive'.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by TexasArmed

I have a fairly strong dead bolted door. If it is being kicked down and nobody is identifying themselves as police or fire department, there is little chance of a mistake. The gunfight won't take place inside my apartment.

No, I won't be doing a visual inspection on who is kicking it down. With meth and crack addicts running loose because the jails are to full and some of them doing home invasions,
I won't be their victim for their next drug high.

Again, You might want to ID the target before you start shooting at it, through the door or not. Mistakes happen. If you are so unsure of your abilites with a gun that you can't wait to get a postive ID of the target you might want to reconsider the whole gun thing, IMO. Cooper's Rule #4 is there for a reason.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Practical

Why do we call them stand your ground laws rather than self-defense laws?

Stand your Ground seems like a confrontational term that prejudices people into thinking the person defending themselves is 'aggressive'.

Becauses "stand your ground" is designed to reduce the issue of preclusion or apparent necessity from the traditional self defense consideration.

[Mcwsky09]

Originally Posted by Practical

Why do we call them stand your ground laws rather than self-defense laws?

Stand your Ground seems like a confrontational term that prejudices people into thinking the person defending themselves is 'aggressive'.

I believe the legal term in Castle Doctrine or Defense of Habitation. Castle doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the stand your ground aspect is the result of a number of states amending the law such that you are not obligated to try to evade and flee in a case where an uninvited person enters your dwelling. That and saying castle doctrine sounds like a commercial for the SCA or a travel brochure to Scottland.

In tems of legal proceedings I have jury duty this week and while I have not been called to be screened for an active jury (yet) I did learn something. In the orientation material it says the opening and closing statements are NOT evidence and do not need to be considered in reaching a decision. Also interesting is that some courts do and some don't allow you take notes during the proceedings and you are not allowed to discuss the case with your fellow jurors until deliberations begin. even the questions asked during the proceedings are not evidence only the testimony given and the exhibits entered.

Also don't forget that our legal system is not about justice or even finding the truth, it is an adversarial system where the job of each side is to get the best deal they can for their client.

[J. R. WEEMS]

Well, hold on to your hats, the WH is now questioning the SYG law in view of the recent verdict in FL-- What else.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Again, You might want to ID the target before you start shooting at it, through the door or not. Mistakes happen. If you are so unsure of your abilites with a gun that you can't wait to get a postive ID of the target you might want to reconsider the whole gun thing, IMO. Cooper's Rule #4 is there for a reason.

Nope I won't reconsider the whole gun thing. You do it your way, I will do it mine, but my intention is to survive. I will not give the criminal an even chance if he is kicking my door down. You can go turn your gun in if you like. You won't find any case law in Texas where criminals have been able to sue home owners for getting shot when they kicked a door in.

In a small apartment, with another disabled family member at risk I will not give the intruder any chance if I can help it.
If it is the police or the fire department they can identify themselves. Where I live its a 99.99% chance its a meth or crack addict who is looking for a victim so as to fund his next high. So you do it your way, I will do it mine. And no I won't holler I have a gun. I simply wait till the door is clearly coming down.

Of course if anyone here or elsewhere wants to pay for an armed guard to insure that the person kicking my door in does not have an AK-47 their welcome to do so. Till then I will handle my own homeland security and protection, and let you handle yours.

[szuppo]

TexasArmed - Right on brother!


Semper Fi!

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Mcwsky09

I believe the legal term in Castle Doctrine or Defense of Habitation. Castle doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the stand your ground aspect is the result of a number of states amending the law such that you are not obligated to try to evade and flee in a case where an uninvited person enters your dwelling. That and saying castle doctrine sounds like a commercial for the SCA or a travel brochure to Scottland.

Real close. Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground are similar concepts but different reasoning. Castle Doctrine applies to home or business and goes back to the common law "a man's home is his castle" idea. In essence, in your home you had the right to stand and fight to defend your home even if you could avoid it. SYG takes that concept and allows it to be used outside of the home. Traditional self defense includes preclusion, the idea that if you can avoid the fight you must avoid the fight. SYG changes that to if you are legally where you are and you are acting in a legal manner you do not have to avoid the conflict, you can stand your ground and fight.

And it's Scotland with one "L", darn it. A "Mc" should do that right!
David, son of James;
Clan Armstrong

[Protected One]

What is the "good reason" for identifying the person? I've heard "it could be a family member, drunk neighbor, etc." - all of which are ASKING to get shot by kicking in my door.

[Rastoff]

Shooting through a door or wall is always a bad idea. As long as they are on the other side of the door, you are not in imminent danger of losing your life. Legally, you are putting yourself in jeopardy if you shoot through a door.

You still have plenty of time, and tactical advantage, by waiting until they actually get through the door. I'm extremely confident that I'd be able to shoot them once they got the door open.

Besides, if you have as good a door as you say, they won't get through it anyway.

However, this is a perfect example for SYG. If someone is beating down the door, SYG allows you to stay and wait for them to come through the door rather than being required to head out the back.

[Rastoff]

Wait, I just noticed that you live in an apartment. This gives you less reason to shoot through the door.

Here's a true story:
A friend was asleep in bed and was awakened by a noise in the kitchen. He grabbed his gun and went to investigate. Sure enough there is a large black man trying to get in the door. He has broken the window near the door and was opening the door when my friend shouted at him. The black guy ran.

My friend called the cops. When the cops got there, they were surprised my friend hadn't shot the guy. While they were discussing the situation, the black guy shows up again.

If you haven't guessed it, the black guy thought he was breaking into his own apartment. He had been to a bar, was a little intoxicated and lost his keys. He wasn't a bad guy, just someone who made a mistake. He paid for the window repair and no charges were filed.

This is not that uncommon.

[jack the toad]

Originally Posted by bunkshaner

just came across this article, this guy kicked in the door of someone with the intent of robbing him (he also had a partner in crime both carrying pistols), feels he shouldn't be prosecuted because he was in fear for his life when he faced the homeowner. Are you freaking serious? If they allow this to happen it will surely cause a lot more of freaking laws hurting our rights while protecting criminals. Am I looking at this the wrong way? Does anyone else think this guy is an idiot?

I wouldn't wanna ask US AG Eric Holder this. Appears that stupid *** wants to repeal stand your ground and replace with some sort of duty to retreat BS.
Attorney General Eric Holder denounces ?stand your ground? laws - The Washington Post

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Protected One

What is the "good reason" for identifying the person? I've heard "it could be a family member, drunk neighbor, etc." - all of which are ASKING to get shot by kicking in my door.

I'll give you an case I worked years back. Daddy got a call at home, was told his daughter had drank to much and passed out and the entire football team was "enjoying" her. Daddy went to house, door was locked, he came in anyway. Now let's imagine Daddy got the wrong address and kicked your door? Think that is worth killing someone over....assuming you can even hit them since you can't see them.

[FLSTFI]

That would be Daddy's fault. Would I feel bad, yes. Would it change how I would handle the situation, no. Once he is thru the door I still would not know who he is and that would be the end of him.

[jlrhiner]

Where do you folks get the idea it's "OK" for someone to kick in your door/break in to your home and then say "oops!"

Your not psychic. You do not know their intentions. They may be the greatest person in the world, but they're kicking in your door! That is an act of aggression to you and your family. Defend your self!

This desire to "Monday morning quarterback" and justify their actions will get you hurt.

[Rastoff]

I understand why you might say that, but chances are you're going to jail if you do.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I understand why you might say that, but chances are you're going to jail if you do.

I doubt it. You want find any case law to support that in Texas.

[Rastoff]

To answer your question, no, I won't break rule 4 for any reason. In case you don't know, rule 4 is:
Be aware of your target and what's in line with it.

If I'm in a store and someone is shooting, I'm moving for cover. My family comes first and getting them out of the line of fire is paramount.

There is a lot more to self defense than shooting your gun. That is another topic and not for this thread.

[s&wchad]

I deleted 18 repetitive posts and call your attention to the following:

Originally Posted by handejector

UNDERSTAND this-
We WON'T change the World here, nor will we be able to fix all the ills afflicting our society.
This forum is not here for the purpose of converting other posters to your ideals, beliefs, and opinions.

... and this:

Originally Posted by handejector

2. Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs.

This thread isn't about one members strategy for dealing with a home invasion, it's about a State Supreme Court hearing over a procedural issue.

From the article:

The arguments the high court wants to hear apparently don’t involve the substance of the law – they involve at what point in a trial process a judge should hold a full hearing about whether evidence can be introduced about whether the defendant can assert that he enjoys immunity from prosecution because he was in fear for his life when he used deadly force.

Read more here: COLUMBIA, SC: SC Supreme Court stops murder trial, orders hearing on ?Stand Your Ground? defense | Crime | The State

I'm not sure what more there is to be said about the case, but stay on topic and don't beat dead horses if you want this thread to stay open.

[bunkshaner]

Since I was the one who started this post, my point of the post was just the fact that the bad dude felt he could use the "standing ground" defense even though he was the one who broke into someone elses home with his partner in crime and while both had handguns. I understand that the courts are trying to figure out evidence procedure etc. By me saying, "if they allow this...." it was meaning allowing someone to use the "stand your ground" defense while committing a felony would cause a huge issue across the board and could result in future laws protecting the bad guys or bad guys who are committing this type of felony will always resort to using this defense. The homeowner/renter/dweller etc has the right to defend themselves and their property but the bad guy doesn't have the same rights while committing the crime. The other dude didn't force the bad guns to break in or bring a gun with them. It could just be a legal tactic to try and get a plea or they feel its their only chance of winning their case or at least lowering their sentence...i don't know. It just burns me up that the defense can even be used while committing a felony.

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by bunkshaner

It just burns me up that the defense can even be used while committing a felony.

Don't be. I doubt there is a state in the nation that has written a SYG law that can be used by someone who was engaging in illegal activity.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by M29since14

Don't be. I doubt there is a state in the nation that has written a SYG law that can be used by someone who was engaging in illegal activity.

Correct. As a general rule that is applicable to self defense in general, it does not apply if you are committing a felony. SYG laws are pretty specific in that you must be where you are legally and engaged in legal activity.