I have a question for all to consider???? Should you use hard ball in self defence vs. hollow point. The military use hard ball as they do not want to kill, they want to disable the enemy, resulting in it taking more personnel to care for wounded, than the dead, that can be left on the battle field. As in a self defence situation, not want to kill or maim the perpetrator but to disable them???????????????

The military has its own operating needs and context, most of which has no more to do with civilian self-defense needs than chocolate cake has to do with apple pie. The point of shooting someone in our setting is to stop their actions. Whether they live or die is a tangential issue at most. The odds are that they will have to be shot a lot to stop anyway. The only good reason to use ball is if that is all that will work in your auto-pistol and you can't fix the gun or change to another that works.

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NHI, 10-8.

If you shoot somebody you want all of the bullet's energy to be deposited in the bad guy. Hardball may very well go right through, since it won't expand. Massad Ayoob has had several articles about over penetration where a bystander was injured or killed by a shot that went through the target. Many of the stories were Law Enforcement ones. Especially NYPD before they finally approved hollowpoints.
A hollowpoint does not always expand. But it's much more likely to than hardball.
Jim

I carry a revolver, so bullet shape and feeding aren't issues. But I load it with +P hollowpoints. As DougM put it so well, I carry to stop the actions of an assailant as quickly and efficiently as I can to save myself or someone else from deadly harm.

I believe one reason, probably the principal reason, that the military uses ball ammunition is that it's mandated under international treaty. Dates from the days when so-called "dumdum" bullets were banned in "civilized" warfare.

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Oh well, what the hell.

There have been times all I had was hardball (both 9mm and .45) and was very glad to get it, but given well designed, tested and verified JHP I will take it any day over ball.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

I consider it irresponsible for me to carry non expanding ammo. Besides the over penetration issue mentioned above, there is the issue of misses either ricocheting, or penetrating a wall, or other barrier.

If I were forced to carry non expanding ammo, I would rethink carrying 9mm, and opt for a slower, larger round. .45 would be the choice.

I like FMJ in an automatic [mine are .380s] precisely because of its superior penetration. I want the bullet to get through any and all barriers and put a hole in the targeted organ [heart or brain]. Barriers might be heavy clothing or an arm or a rib, or all of them at once. Using hard ball requires due diligence to not hit an innocent person down range. One of the safety rules is to know what is behind the target. I resolve to be aware of what's behind the bad guy. Another benefit of FMJ in an automatic is more reliable feeding.

I use a hollow point in a revolver because my revolvers are of more powerful calibers than my automatics and can be relied upon to penetrate sufficiently even if they are HPs. Feeding reliability is not an issue with a revolver.

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USAF 1971 - 1978

Take a few milk jugs filled with water and compare the hollow points to the fmj,then think about the environment you may be shooting in.

A total myth. I challenge you to cite one OFFICIAL military document which states that as DOCTRINE.

The military uses ball because the Hague Conventions REQUIRE it. That's it, PERIOD.


How do you shoot somebody with a firearm and NOT "maim" them?

If I have to shoot somebody in self-defense, my goal is to stop them from doing whatever caused me to shoot them in the first place. I don't care if that kills them, maims them, or knocks them into another dimension. As long as they stop their attack, I'm good with whatever condition my defense leaves them in, including totally unharmed.

Look at the ballistics films on youtube.

.380 does not penetrate as well in JHP, and using the FBI standards a .380 JHP does not penetrate enough. It does penetrate enough in FMJ.

9mm and above, on the other hand, penetrates fine in JHP, so you get the best of both worlds of penetration and expansion.

IMHO, it should be FMJ in .380, and JHP in 9mm.

But that just my opinion.

Speaking from a hunting background.....

I used hollow points for years and years. Each deer shot would run off just a little ways and die unless neck, spine or head shot. I was use to that. The hollow points explode, they throw lead out and into a very large tissue area, I have never gotten a complete bullet back.

This past year I went to a full metal jacket nickel plated bulllet. I was worried about many of the issues discussed above. After 5 deer on the ground I came to the conclusion that I had been using the wrong bullet for many years. ALL FIVE DEER DROPPED INSTANTLY IN THEIR TRACKS with the new FMJ bullets. Not a single step was taken from any of the five. The hits were so hard and shocking they just crumbled instantly. NEVER have I seen that in 40 years.

I believe this bullet change created something I had never had: a solid hit. I always shoot for the shoulder on deer as I like the effect from a shoulder hit. Meaning, I am hitting bone now and its devastating! Before with the hollow points they were exploding and this created a lack of knockdown power. These new FMJ bullets have solid knockdown power.

I carry all FMJ, I practice with it and I carry it. A person has just as many bones as a deer, and if I hit one bone, that person is going down, I'd bet money on it. Could I get a pass through? Sure I could, thats what back up shots are for.

Knowing your backstop is just a simple hunting rule that I have followed all my life. That is just common knowledge and being responsible.

DR

I RARELY carry my 1911 Colt Gov't model for SD, but the once or twice a year I do (when actually shooting it at the Range). I load 230 grain hardball. My Gov't model feeds just about everything and anything, but I really believe that Hardball is still the most reliable feeder at the end of the day. Even though I know it won't expand I have a lot of faith in the standard 230 grainer Hardball round. Well, that's my .02 cents.........

Take this from a Former Maine.

Ball......is useless.

Immagine shooting an attacker, and they dont slow down.......just a nice clean through and through thats left traveling to strike the nice old lady behind them. Watch discovery healths ER sometime, watch how many bangers take 8 of them and leave 2 days later......not very comforting if you ask me.

Bad idea.

A ball round impacts, continues and exits. meaning 85% of the force of the round leaves the perp with the round.

Vs Hollow point.

Which strikes, expands and stops inside the body, making 100% of the force of the round strike the perp. kind of like being hit with a baseball bat in the chest. Also it doesnt leave said perp and injure those behind them.

I've seen the Beretta M9 used against insurgents. 5-10 rounds into them. and they stumble a bit, scream out "allah akbar" and start running again.

The reason the military hates the m9 and says "it dont knock em down" is not because of the gun, its because of ball ammo. And now that they have swapped to nylon rounds instead of lead its even more useless.

Only hard ball that was every really worth anything in SD is the .45 because its just so large. Worked great in WW2 and knocked the germans down with 1-2 rounds. anything less is asking for collateral damage.

Use HP. its designed to stop the threat, which is exactly what you want to do when your life depends on it. Dont worry about the attackers life, thats their job. And once they see your weapon if they keep coming anyway, their basically signing it away as is.

Back when I was researching my choices for a concealed carry firearm, I read everything I could find on the subject. I remember reading an article about a legally armed citizen being cited for having hardball ammo in his concealed carry firearm. They said it was "criminal Indifference" because hardball ammo could overpenetrate and injure an innocent bystander.
I carry 110 grain Federal Hydra-shok hollowpoints in my snubby.

Tell those 5 deer from last year that ball ammo is useless.

Not saying its best for every caliber and person, but it's far far from useless.

DR

Excellent point to remember and why I purchased an M&P 45c for concealed carry. It's been next to impossible to find jhp ammo since Newtown let alone range ammo and if I had to carry non expanding ammo, bigger(fatter) is better.

You're gonna have to post a link to that case. I think it's just a story someone told you and isn't real.

You cannot compare a rifle round with a muzzle velocity over 2K FPS with a handgun round that's 1,100FPS or less.

I carry .45ACP ball all the time. A 9mm JHP might expand, but a .45 won't get smaller. Plus, it is the most reliable ammo for any gun. I'll take a reliable round any day.

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Freedom isn't free.

One more thing. The US military uses hardball because of a thing called, "The Law of Armed Combat". Anyone that's served in a conflict should know that. It's required training before they deploy.

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Freedom isn't free.

When the Marine Corps was working on getting the M9 some of us did our own research. In the only round authorized for use by the military, hard ball, the 45 had a 2-1 knock down capability over the 9MM. Part of the reasons the military went with the 9MM, the 1911's were worn out, a lot of the kids entering the military were afraid of the recoil of the 45, the M9 carrried many more rounds than the 1911, and this is key, more hits on target by beginning shooters.

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Retired Marine Gunny

Actually the comparison of this rifle to the handgun round is pretty darn doable. The rifle spits at 1580fps. Not that far from your 1100fps, but still, it is different by 480fps

DR

Over-penetration with the 9mm is a real issue. Other than that, I have yet to see real data showing that the .45 and the 9mm are very far apart when both are using FMJ, or very far apart when both are using top-end hollowpoints. Notice I am NOT saying that there is no difference, just that there isn't a big difference. Anecdotal evidence is full of holes (ahem). Most of the thinking runs like this: "So-and-so shot a bad guy with X, and he didn't fall down, I bet that wouldn't have happened if he was carrying a Y!", and: "My buddy shot someone with a Y and lived to tell about it, I'll bet an X wouldn't have worked!". Anyone can build a list of quotes supporting their favorite caliber.

I think some of you fellas are getting the idea that I like hardball........... I ONLY use hardball in an Auto for ONE REASON and ONE REASON ONLY.....
utter reliability. To me it's almost a moot point because I carry a revolver all but once or twice a year. In that revolver is Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCLHP-CG.

I agree with most of your comments regarding over penetration, no expansion, etc, etc, but one thing that can not be denied..... It's a cold day in hell when a hardball round won't feed and I would rather have the reliability factor than assured expansion. Expansion is only considered if the gun actually goes bang. With hardball I know it will. I know some of you also have carry .45 Autos that have been specially gone over to be utterly reliable with hollow point ammo, but I only have stock 1911 Colts and I know they were designed for use with hardball - hence my use of the stuff. That's all, just wanted to explain my reasoning.

What caliber? How far away? I know in Pa fmj bullets for hunting is a no no. Most of the time a deer is within 50-75 yards and if you use a rifle round larger then a 30-30 it has a great chance of just over penetrating, not killing the deer right away and continuing on to possibly kill another hunter. Also a lot depends on what type of bullet. Some companies make very bad hunting ammo.

SD situations are completely different. Its not 25, 50 or more yards away. Its often real close and you'd want that bullet to dump all its energy into the intended target, not just to wiz through.

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I thought it's called deadly force and you shoot to kill. I thought only Western heroes winged the bad guys.

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Back to back World War Champs.

Arik,

50cal muzzleloader black powder, 20-80yards

DR

Ah, yeah different thing entirely! 50 cal ball.....like a slug! Slow and big. If i used a 45-70 lead bullet for hunting doesn't equate to using 9mm out of a 3-5 inch barrel.

Thats like saying im going to scope my Glock 17 because rifle rounds are accurate and travel far. Different bullets, different characteristics, different energy transfer .....2 different things. Only thing they share is that both are bullets

Im guessing but if you want a closer comparison use a 50 cal musket pistol.

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Also the utter Cheapness of 9mm over .45 pushed a lot of decisions. If you ask me. Worst decision ever. M9 locking blocks also like to shatter at really bad times haha

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It's probably a subject we could debate till the end of time and still not have an answer with all the variables involved.

Either way you look at it, the hollow points were also slow and big, principle is still the same.

Everyone speaks how ball ammo just blows through you and doesn't hurt a thing, I beg to differ completely. And IF you hit bone with that ball ammo, you'll see some real energy release. Seen it 5 times last year.

I'm just comparing the two (ball and hollow), same gun, same size deer, we aren't much different really, internally that is, and the devastating knock down power of the ball was astounding to say the least. Never have I seen that with Hollow points, and I know I never will, having shot them for 30 years.

DR

No this is really that debatable.

True, and it works because you are comparing the same caliber out of the same rifle. If you were hunting with a rifle cartridge ....say a 3006. You would see how beneficial the hp ammo is. FMJ just pokes little holes as it flies through even when hitting bone. If it were all the same (musket balls, rifle bullets, handgun bullets) we wouldnt have so many differences in calibers and bullet design. The musket ball works great because it has large surface area, slow speed and mass. In your case a "fmj" works better compared to the same hp bullet. Rifle bullets rely on speed and hp to do the same job, same with handgun bullets but without the speed and thats another reason why rifle and handgun bullets hp ammo is designed differently.

Of course quality of the ammo makes a difference too. If you pick Wolf hp "because all hp ammo is the same" as some say. Then you might as well stick with fmj. Speer Gold Dot is a entirely different story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v92S...e_gdata_player



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glad someone with more real world experience than me chimed in... I know a cop that was shot (hit) seven times at a range of 9 feet with a 45ACP, including one to the face and one to the head... he was messed up, but not as bad as you'd think after being hit 7 times with a 45 at close range... the results probably would have been alot different had the bad guy not been using FMJ

That is sort of the key to it all. Hardball is hardball and pretty much all of it in the standard fighting calibers will do pretty much the same. Hollowpoint is usually better for self defense than hardball and there, as you said, pretty much all the standard fighting caliber hollowpoints will do pretty much the same.

FMJ is a hole punch. thats about it. Unless the round is 230+ grain.......its just a hole puncher.

HPJ is turns a small hole punch into a very BIG hole punch. Plus adds many pounds of energy transfer.

There is a very good reason why ballistics gel gets torn to pieces with HPJ and ball just makes a nice perfect tube :-p.

The way I look at it, ball is for punching holes in paper. Hollow point is for saving your life.

To each their own but I don't agree with the use of FMJ in a carry gun.

If I had a gun that would only feed FMJ reliably I would get rid of it or retire it to target duty.

And if I had a gun that was such a piss poor caliber that I thought I needed FMJ, I wouldn't carry it.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I have a Ruger LCP that sees occasional carry use. I load it with 90 gr ball because I don't trust 380 JHP's to penetrate- not enough weight OR velocity. I load my 9mm with 115 gr JHP-- I trust this heavier faster bullet to penetrate AND expand. I load my 38's with 158 gr lead SWC-HP's or 148 gr hardcast WC's. I will be experimenting with a 148 gr lead hollowpoint load and might be switching to that..

Speaking for myself, I would only use it in smaller calibers such as .25, .32 and .380 by virtue of the fact that using FMJ ammo is often the only way to achieve a minimum of 12" of penetration in those calibers.

FMJ is not as efficient at destroying soft tissue as an expanded JHP. That does not, however, make it any less lethal.

I wouldn't want to be shot with either JHP or FMJ ball

This type of debate seems to come up often and some of the responses
are just about laughable. Does anyone seriously believe that just
poking a hole all the way through a person's vital areas of the body
with lowly FMJ ammo isn't going to significantly harm that person
because its just "target" ammo? And shooting an animal, human or
other, with a high powered rifle using FMJ ammo will only poke a small
hole, hardly disturbing the animal as it flies through? Really?? What
about the known tendency of FMJ ammo to tumble in soft tissue?
The behavior of FMJ bullets in soft tissue is the reason for the
acceptance of smaller rifle cartridges in military rifles in use today.
I saw one deer shot with a 308 rifle using military match ammo which
features a 173 gr FMJ bullet. The deer was down and out within about
20 yds of where it was hit. Field dressing revealed that the bullet
exited the skin on the offside of shot in full broadside profile. If FMJ
in handguns of anything less than 45 caliber is nearly harmless the
people of this world outside the US must have never realized it and
probably buried an awful lot of poor folks that were still breathing!

they will most likely be taking a trip to the ER (or the Coroner) if shot by either one.I was told that even the shock of a gunshot wound can kill.

Keep in mind that rifle and handgun rounds are very different. FMJ in rifle often tumble when entering flesh. Handgun calibers do not have that characteristic. This makes a huge difference in effect.

Again, my main reason for HP ammo is not effectiveness, although I do want a round that will stop the threat quickly, but rather I do not want to worry about what will happen to a round that over penetrates or ricochets. In a recent shooting I read about, LEOs fired 20 rounds and actually hit the individual only 2 or 3 times. That is a lot of stray lead flying around.

GOD forbid that you have to shoot some one in self defence!! But when using factory ammo recommended for the firearm, the lawyers would probably not be able to blow you logic out of proportion. Thank you for your input!!!!!

Hollow points are "bigger" bullets for your gun. I think everyone agrees that punching a larger hole is better, and when shooting in a urban environment I would rather the bullet stop or loose most of its energy in the first thing it hits.

And I really see no fair comparison between a rifle and handgun. Theres a reason countries go to war with rifles. And just from goofing around with friends... rifles penetrate and put a lot more shock into what is hit.

Trying to equate performance of FMJs in pistols versus rifles is just plain silly.

I don't own, and never have owned, a handgun which could launch ANY projectile, between 115gr. and 150gr. at anything even APPROACHING 2,800fps.

As you say, armies issue rifles to the infantry for a reason. And that reason is penetrating power where nobody cares if you get a through and through (and in fact you WANT "overpenetration"). On the battlefield, if you shoot THROUGH somebody and hit somebody else, you get a medal for it. In your home or on the street, you get charged with a crime and sued out of existence.

Can be, but often isn't.

NYPD tried to buck the trend, but the legal liability from through and throughs just got to be too much.

You moving?

Out
West