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Old 10-19-2013, 07:10 PM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Thumbs up The Reality of CCW Incidents

Since 2005 I started collecting CCW incidents I saw on the internet. I did not go out and search for them, just listed the ones I came across on the web. I'm sure I've missed a lot (please PM me any others you know of). I've included a brief description of each incident in case links die, and I've posted as many pix or videos as the forum software will allow.

Looking over the list, I can see that very few CCWers were shot for their efforts and, IIRC, only 1 died (by BG w/AK and body armor). So, the argument that only LEOs are trained enough to take on BGs and defend themselves w/a HGN have been proven false. Also, I can't recall ANY CCWer having his gun taken away from him, much less used against him, so those are two other arguments used by the antis that appear to be false. Additionally, I don't think there are ANY cases of the CCWer shooting innocents, so that is a 3rd argument used by the antis that has been proven false.

As for the need to actually shoot, the number of shots, and the need for reloads: I'm sure there are incidents that do NOT get reported where merely presenting the gun ends the incident (a few of these were reported and included). The number of shots varies and in only a few incidents that I can recall was there a need to reload (but news reports don't often provide enough details to make conclusions about that).

Let me know of any improvements I should make and of any incidents I have missed. (I've listed about a half dozen improvements I've thought of at the end of the list.) I usually try to update/improve it every month or two.

Of course, if you ever need to use your CCW, your incident will be what it will be. But there still could be lessons to be learned from what has actually happened in CCW incidents. The main lesson I see is to EDC at least something! While more is merrier, if it is a choice between grabbing a 5-shot revolver or a .380 or going without, grab that little gnat and stick it in your pocket.

Feel free to post about it on other forums to encourage folks to get a CCW, training and to EDC!
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:04 AM
Der Biermeister Der Biermeister is offline
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I don't think there are ANY cases of the CCWer shooting innocents, so that is a 3rd argument used by the antis that has been proven false.
That is one factoid that I have often wondered about. Can the MSM point to just ONE incident where a CCWer used his weapon to murder innocent(s)? Since I have never seen it reported (and you gotta know it would have been hollered from the rooftops), I don't believe so.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:25 AM
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Default Yes.

Believe this. There have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

Be safe.

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That is one factoid that I have often wondered about. Can the MSM point to just ONE incident where a CCWer used his weapon to murder innocent(s)? Since I have never seen it reported (and you gotta know it would have been hollered from the rooftops), I don't believe so.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:27 AM
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Believe this. There have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.
I don't doubt it. Do you happen to know of specific cases (with links)?
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:33 AM
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Default You are wrong.

Your "study" is hugely flawed. For a start, there have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

l suspect there have been many other innocents based on this statistic alone.

One can cherry pick and distort information easily. Sure hope you are not doing so intentionally.

Be safe.


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... Additionally, I don't think there are ANY cases of the CCWer shooting innocents, so that is a 3rd argument used by the antis that has been proven false...
(emphasis added)
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:39 AM
The Big D The Big D is offline
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Thank you for the suggestion, Ransom. Here is the linky:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf

Be safe.



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I don't doubt it. Do you happen to know of specific cases (with links)?
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:39 AM
shouldazagged shouldazagged is offline
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I haven't researched this and don't have stats, but here's one I've posted before and know to be true. When Kentucky became a shall-issue state seventeen years ago the Louisville newspaper, The Courier-Journal, shrieked to high heaven. The once-great paper was by then owned by Gannett (and thus being ruined), and was decidedly anti-gun to the extent it could get away with in a pro-gun state. Innocent blood would flow in the streets, CCW licensees would be shooting each other and blameless civilians, etc., etc.

A year after the state began issuing licenses they did a follow-up study. To their credit, they were honest enough to report that CCW license holders were significantly less likely than the general population to be arrested for any kind of offense, violent or not.

Thus showing that as a group we are by definition the law-abiding people carrying guns. Surprise, surprise!

I'm not suggesting that there have been no incidents of lawless or careless behavior. Those of us who carry legally are still individual people and some go bad or are bad. But on the whole, it seems we are more to be trusted than a thug with an illegally-obtained gun stuck in his waistband.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:44 AM
ferretray ferretray is offline
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Believe this. There have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

Be safe.
The percentage of crimes commited by CCW licensee's is still extremely small compared to the public at large.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:58 AM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Believe this. There have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

Be safe.
Best not to CONFUSE the two issues. I'm talking about CCWers who mistakenly/unintentionally killed innocents during an otherwise justifiable shooting.

You're talking about CCWers who intentionally killed (murdered) LEOs.

Big difference.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:04 AM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Your "study" is hugely flawed. For a start, there have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

l suspect there have been many other innocents based on this statistic alone.

One can cherry pick and distort information easily. Sure hope you are not doing so intentionally.

Be safe.


(emphasis added)
The emphasis is yours as is the "straw man argument." I NEVER called my collection of CCW incidents a "study."

I did NOT "cherry pick" incidents, I included EVERY one I came across.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:14 AM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Thank you for the suggestion, Ransom. Here is the linky:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf

Be safe.
Thx for the link to the "study." I'll read it this afternoon (PST), but I already found an interesting incident on page 7:
New York, Shawn Bryan, a NYC Corrections Officer, killed Springfield MA PD LEO Kevin Ambrose and then killed himself. The VPC classifies this incident as 2 LEOs killed by a CCWer!

#1 LEOs are NOT CCWers: they are sworn officers who carry because of their badge, not a permit. So much for the honesty of the Violence Policy Center and this "study."

#2 the 2nd LEO killed was the Bad Cop, Shawn Bryan, committing suicide.

Since Bryan was a LEO, neither he nor Ambrose were "killed" by a "CCW" permit holder. That's 2 LEOs that do NOT belong in that "study." Right there, 1/7th of the VPC's "study" data was "distorted" to falsely make CCWers look dangerous/bad. So, 2 down, 12 to go.... I look forward to this afternoon and looking for more "distortions" of the "data" from this so-called "study" that you're promoting on S&W forum.

For all: I only included off-duty LEOs in my list because the list is to provide CCWers w/information that they may use to understand what justifiable CCWer shootings are like (# of BGs, # of armed BGs, types of weapons used, idea of distances involved, # shots fired, etc.) so they can adjust their equipment & training so they may need to protect innocent life.

My list started because of an ongoing debate on another gun forum. There were, basically, two camps: (1) the odds of being in a CCW incident are extremely low, therefore just carry what you know you WILL actually EDC (e.g., J-frame, small .380, etc.). (2) "Prepare for the worse, hope for the best" line of thinking. Carry a hicap w/spare mag/s and/or BUG/s (as well as knife/ves, etc.). Carry guns are to be "comforting, not comfortable" line of reasoning. I just started saving info about incidents to help myself (and eventually others), see what they are really like so each of us can make an informed decision on "where to draw the line" between those two extreme positions.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:27 PM
blackpowder30 blackpowder30 is offline
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Paladin4Christ, You are correct. I also went to the "14 LEOs killed" site. After reading half of the 30 some examples it was easy to see that although the deaths of 14 law enforcement officers was factual, it was obvious that most of those who were killed were done so by those CCW holders that, by law, should never have been granted a CCW. It is no new news that the background checks are grossly flawed.
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:32 PM
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Paladin4Christ, You are correct. I also went to the "14 LEOs killed" site. After reading half of the 30 some examples it was easy to see that although the deaths of 14 law enforcement officers was factual, it was obvious that most of those who were killed were done so by those CCW holders that, by law, should never have been granted a CCW. It is no new news that the background checks are grossly flawed.
I agree with your quick take on this study. The case of the man pushing around a shopping cart full of guns and ammo, the cases involving domestic violence histories, the case involving a white supremacist-also with a domestic violence history, road rage, are examples of individuals that should never have been issued a carry permit. I'll bet some form of mental illness was involved in many of the cases.

These also sound like incidents that would have happened even if the people involved had not been issued carry permits (the permit had nothing to do with it). People that do these kinds of things usually couldn't care less about gun control laws.

Those individuals with permits are at least screened in a background check (even though the checks may not be 100% perfect), so worry less about those with carry permits, and worry more about all the individuals we have to live with that we know nothing about, including: the dangerously mentally ill, juvenile delinquents, career criminals, rageaholics, wife beaters, alcoholics, druggies, gang bangers, terrorists, etc.
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Your "study" is hugely flawed. For a start, there have been at least fourteen (14) LEO's killed by people with a concealed carry permit since 2007.

l suspect there have been many other innocents based on this statistic alone.

One can cherry pick and distort information easily. Sure hope you are not doing so intentionally.

Be safe.


(emphasis added)
statistically not bad really.
as of the time I was in a CCW class, there were, and probably still are, seven LEO's in the state pen for getting it wrong in my state alone.
multiply by 50 and we get numbers that really don't sit well at all against 14. Especially given the nature of police work, where you HAVE to get in faces and must be aggressive.
its just part of the job.
the other perspective is that we see police on occasion, acting the part of a legit target.
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:23 AM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Well, I went over that VPC study and even assuming that the Pending cases result in convictions, there are VERY FEW LEOs that died BECAUSE of Shall Issue RTC laws.

With my previous post we reduced the number of LEOs killed BECAUSE of CCW incidents (vs incidents involving a person w/a CCW), from 14 to 12. Now let's see how much deception VPC engaged in and what is a more accurate number of LEO deaths.

P. 3 (FL), the murderer "had" a NC CCW, but VPC implies that since FL has reciprocity w/NC, he should be considered to have a valid CCW in FL. My question is, had he changed his domicile to FL when he was pushing around that grocery cart full of guns and gun related stuff? If so, his NC CCW may have been invalid and thus there would be no FL reciprocity. That's 1 LEO death by CCWer that is questionable. I'll give VPC the benefit of the doubt and say there are still 12 LEO deaths even though it could be 11.

P. 5 (ID): the article states that he was wrongly issued a CCW! Well, if the state failed in its background check, that's a problem w/the bureaucrats involved, not w/the law. But the main problem w/this incident is that the CCWer used a FA AK-47, not a HG! Do Idaho CCW permits really allow the concealed carry of FA AKs? I'll assume not and say this is an example where having a CCW did NOT aid in the commission of the crime. Also, the entry does not say where the shootout took place. I wonder why? That's 1 more LEO death that was NOT aided by the BG having a CCW. Now we're down to 11 LEO deaths, possibly 10.

P. 6 (MI), this entry does not give ANY info re the incident! Nothing about the location of the shooting nor of the weapon used. Again, VPC, desperate for CCW BGs, presumes that the CCW was central, not incidental, to the killing. 1 more LEO who's murder may NOT have been CCW related. Again, I'll give VPC the benefit of the doubt and say we're still at 11, even though it could be only 9.

P. 9 (PA), here the BG CCWer used a HG, SGN, and an AK! Was he really CCing all of those??? Do PA CCW permits authorize CCing multiple long guns? And again, VPC does NOT tell us where this incident occurred. Given the long guns, I'm assuming this time that it took place in a residence or business, and thus a CCW permit was incidental. This knocks off 3 LEO deaths from the VPC list. We're now down to 8 (or even 6).

P. 10 (PA), this entry says it occurred in the BG's home, so again, a CCW permit did not aid in the commission of this crime. 1 more LEO death knocked off. We're down to 7 (or 5).

P. 11 (VA), this was a SNIPER attack w/a rifle! Again, having a CCW did not enable or even aid in the commission of the murder. This time we take off 2 more LEO deaths, bringing our final total down to 5, or even as few as 3.

Now, on the other side, all of the times that I came across on my own (not a professional investigator/reporter/whatever, just a gunnie) (not an organization either!), found of CCWs saving lives.

Plus, factor in that the US GAO estimated that there were 8,000,000 CCWers in the US as of 2011 Dec 31! (Link here:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/592552.pdf) (FWIW IL expects 400,000 CCW applicants in 2014 alone.)

And the best that VPC can do is find between 3-5 LEO murders where CCWs may have helped??? No wonder they had to distort the others to stuff into their report.

BTW Mods here removed the link to my list of 110+ incidents of Concealed Carry Saves Lives because this forum has rule against linking to other forums. My bad....
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:00 AM
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I agree that I don't like the VPC study either, however, your comments that just because a murder committed by the holder of a CCW doesn't count just because it occurred at his home or with a rifle just doesn't hold water. A CCW doesn't automatically make you a "Good Guy" people do fall through the cracks. The are bad cops, ones who never should have been hired or passed a psych test, there are day care workers who molest children etc. There are bad people in this world! VPC is just looking to try and disarm us all by saying because a few crimes are committed by CCW holders we are all bad.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:29 AM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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I agree that I don't like the VPC study either, however, your comments that just because a murder committed by the holder of a CCW doesn't count just because it occurred at his home or with a rifle just doesn't hold water.
Explain why. Your following sentence does not do that -- you go off re. some other topic (straw man argument).

Having a CCW, or not, was immaterial to the murder of those LEOs. Only LEO murders that could not have occurred "but for" the BG having a CCW are relevant, if CCWs are the focus of the study.

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A CCW doesn't automatically make you a "Good Guy" people do fall through the cracks. The are bad cops, ones who never should have been hired or passed a psych test, there are day care workers who molest children etc. There are bad people in this world!
Not sure what you're talking about. I never said only GGs get CCWs, or that all CCWers are GGs or magically turn otherwise BGs into GGs. I even mention the BG who got a CCW because the state cleared him when it should not have. Sounds like you're setting up a straw man just to argue....

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VPC is just looking to try and disarm us all by saying because a few crimes are committed by CCW holders we are all bad.
Actually, when VPC first released this info they were using it to say that Shall Issue laws are BAD because carrying a gun makes more people kill each other and LE. (They were trying to get LE to oppose Shall Issue laws.) Since MOST of these VPC incidents were NOT aided by the BG having a CCW, it was factually immaterial and thus many of their examples irrelevant to the point they were trying to make.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:22 PM
paladin4christ paladin4christ is offline
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Just started a related thread in the 2nd A forum.

Texas Concealed Handgun License Murder Rates

"Texas Concealed Handgun License Murder Rates"

Bottom line from the article:
The two numbers give us the ratio of CHL holder convictions for murder and manslaughter per 100,000 CHL holders. That number is .70 per 100,000. Yes, the decimal point is in the correct place.

The rate of murder and manslaughter for the general population of Texas averaged for the years 1996-2011 is 6.0 per 100,000.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:00 PM
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No, he makes a very valid point. You are specifically referring to individuals who conceal carry a firearm, not gun owners in general. In Massachusetts, many cities will allow a License to Carry applicant to purchase and keep handguns, but will restrict their carry options to range or hunting use only. Cities like Boston and Springfield, by default, will not permit the vast majority of applicants to conceal carry a firearm in public for the purpose of protection. This does not even factor in the increasing number of businesses that elect to be "gun free zones" because of illegitimate studies such as his one.
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I agree that I don't like the VPC study either, however, your comments that just because a murder committed by the holder of a CCW doesn't count just because it occurred at his home or with a rifle just doesn't hold water. A CCW doesn't automatically make you a "Good Guy" people do fall through the cracks. The are bad cops, ones who never should have been hired or passed a psych test, there are day care workers who molest children etc. There are bad people in this world! VPC is just looking to try and disarm us all by saying because a few crimes are committed by CCW holders we are all bad.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:29 AM
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Hang on a minute here... are we actually debating whether a report from the VERY anti-2nd Amendment Violence Policy Center is valid or not?

Guys... they arrived at the conclusion of their "study" before they sat down to do the "research."

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll ask the VPC for info on guns at the same time I ask chicken little for information on the sky falling.
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