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Old 01-29-2014, 09:05 AM
JJD0527 JJD0527 is offline
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Default open carry/concealed carry dilemma

I live in Pa. I applied for my concealed carry permit and was denied for a misdemeanor possession of a small amount of marijuana charge that involved no violence, distribution of the controlled substance or anything dangerous to any other member of society. Its absolutely ridiculous I m curious to what people think about the idea of open carry. I bought a Smith and Wesson SD 40 ve to protect myself and my family at home, and I feel that I should be able to carry it with me outside the house, and the only legal way that I am able to carry it is open. I m seriously considering open carry. Any thoughts on if its worth getting harassed by police and possibly asked to leave certain establishments, in order to protect myself, my family and innocent people if absolutely necessary?
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:36 AM
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We seem to entertain open vs conceiled carry threads about once a week. They sometimes end in thread lockdown for the heated disagreement.

Carry how you feel comfortable. Don't carry into places that you know will be problematic. Try not to be the "only one" who feels safer carrying openly. Carry to be safe, not to make a political statement.

I do both, conceiled and open. And sometimes about halfway inbetween. It's legal either way here in AZ, with or without a permit.

Challenge your CCW denial if you feel it worthwhile and can afford the legal bills.


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Old 01-29-2014, 09:38 AM
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If you do decide to open carry in Pennsylvania, be aware that a permit is needed to open carry in the city of philadelphia and you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle.

Last edited by snubbyfan; 01-29-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:29 AM
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I just think that its stupid...that I am legally allowed to purchase firearms, however I am not allowed to conceal carry. It doesn't make any sense to me. Yes I broke a law and I m not denying that but they should look more closely at my record and see that I have never attempted to hurt anyone or rob any businesses. Honestly I would prefer to conceal carry, unfortunately legally I can't. I m am aware of the laws concerning open carry (I' have read them many times)....I m still a little confused, however about transporting the firearm in my vehicle. I m pretty sure I can transport it as long as it is unloaded and in the trunk which is ironic because if I driving down the highway and some crazy person decides to pick me out and randomly shoot at me and my family, I have no defense except police and who knows how long it will take them to show up. Does anyone know the laws for transporting a handgun for sure?
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:44 AM
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Yes I broke a law and I m not denying that
Not to be a jerk but actions have consequences. You made a decision to risk the consequences of breaking the law when you sold the weed.

As for open carrying this is speculation but if someone calls you in for MWAG and the cops that show up run your record your prior conviction could cause you some hassles with the cops.

My advice is to consult a lawyer and see if there is any way to have the conviction expunged from your record.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:39 PM
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Not to be a jerk but actions have consequences. You made a decision to risk the consequences of breaking the law when you sold the weed.

As for open carrying this is speculation but if someone calls you in for MWAG and the cops that show up run your record your prior conviction could cause you some hassles with the cops.

My advice is to consult a lawyer and see if there is any way to have the conviction expunged from your record.
I'd like to add that your point of view seems to be one of those types very prone to digging holes.

Understand at times like these, that what you feel is of no consequence and the solutions are found in facts alone
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:42 PM
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smoke, I was not arrested for selling weed. I was arrested for possession of a small amount of marijuana that I possessed for recreational use only. I was the only person involved in the arrest. Unless I tried or did hurt someone or committed a robbery, my right to carry a weapon on me to protect myself or others should not be taken away from me
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:15 PM
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I let my mind wander a little on that one and this is what I came up with.
There's a guy I know that has been convicted of misdemeanors in two different states. Yet this person was still able to get a West Virginia carry permit because in West Virginia only felonies count against you.
Now if you were to get a non-resident West Virginia carry permit would it reciprocate with Pennsylvania? I know that West Virginia resident permits reciprocate with Penn.
Just a thought.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:17 PM
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thanks snubbyfan, I have looked into that and I think that is what I will try to do next.....hopefully they approve me cause if not I m out 100 bucks
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:28 PM
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My advice is to consult a lawyer and see if there is any way to have the conviction expunged from your record.
+1 on this advice. If the conviction cannot be expunged, perhaps there is a way to still get a permit since it is a non-violent offense. And as snubbyfan said, check into getting a non-resident permit from another state that PA has reciprocity with.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:32 PM
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I'd like to add that your point of view seems to be one of those types very prone to digging holes.

Understand at times like these, that what you feel is of no consequence and the solutions are found in facts alone
I don't understand what you are trying to communicate here were you addressing me or adding to my comment? Could you restate please?
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:35 PM
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Unless I tried or did hurt someone or committed a robbery, my right to carry a weapon on me to protect myself or others should not be taken away from me
Unfortunately even if I agree with you on this point (and I do) that call isn’t yours or mine to make. You are where you are because of choices you made, the only thing to do is go forward as best you can
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:13 PM
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I don't know the laws over there. But if from the two options open carry would be the only one you can legally exercise, then it's a no brainer to me.

Just educate yourself first and then do it. Don't break the law again...
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:15 PM
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I don't understand what you are trying to communicate here were you addressing me or adding to my comment? Could you restate please?
adding to your contribution .. its not directed towards you.

Its easy to find a law one feels is flawed, and get bent out of shape over it. We face a whole lot of this in the 2A fight.
It is usually best to get these things changed through the system such as through rulings of constitutionality, as was the case in Illinois. Facts worked where fury would have likely failed.

the emotionally driven methods tend to revolve around civil disobedience. It can work if the thing protested is so repulsive so as to spark the outrage of massive segments of the population .... lacking the requisite numbers to effect a change with these methods, an anemic group simply stands to add further complications to their lives, leading to further outrage, establishing a vicious cycle.

The op is upset ... he did the deed, and the price for it seems disproportionate from his point of view.
thing is .. most of the space he used expressing his issue seems to revolve around his outrage.
If this ratio of fact and emotion are also applied to his methods of dealing with his issue, its far more likely he will find himself chilling out in prison after he REALLY gets ticked off, than it is that he'll actually find resolution.

He should read and understand the law.
In most cases, if you are legal to purchase a gun, the permit is a given. In his case it may be the laws he lives by are a little more strict, The system blocked him with a false positive, or he slipped through NICS when he got his guns.

The first two might be corrected by having the issue expunged and or the denial re evaluated.
But understand that the third one in the list may come to light in the process. Do weigh that risk carefully
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:41 PM
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I would imagine an appeal would probably successful with an explanation that you do not current use illegal drugs. I'd guess that was the concern of the issuing authority. Also you didn't mention how long has it's been since the conviction, if it was recent then that concern is relevant. YMMV but I'd try an appeal first, well that and get your record expunged though that may not be possible depending on how long it's been since the conviction, if that doesn't work then get an out of state permit.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:05 PM
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where at in pa?
pa is a shall issue state unless:
The issuing officer shall, within 45 days, issue the license unless good cause exists to deny. The state code lists several factors which preclude issuance of a license, including, but not limited to:
(1) being of a character and reputation that the applicant is likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(2) currently charged with or convicted of certain crimes;
(3) being a habitual drunkard or abuser of controlled substances;
(4) being of unsound mind or having been involuntarily committed to a mental institution; or
(5) having been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.

as you well know...i would guess that they consider you falling into 3 of the 5 categories...people clean up their act, but it may be too late for that...

although not lawyers, Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association is a very knowledgeable site for pa gun laws...
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:20 PM
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Re: (3) being a habitual drunkard or abuser of controlled substances....

Texas has an exclusion if, in the past ten years, you have two convictions for DUI.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:19 AM
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i would do what the SGT said and challange it it does not hurt to ask again and they will look into it. it does not hurt to ask again it is your right and u will find out the real truth hopefully to your beneyfit and it wont cost you
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:36 AM
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Move to Colorado. Our state legislature recently voted to allow welfare recipients to use their EBT cards at ATM's located in pot shops, so I doubt seriously that an old misdemeanor possession charge would be held against you.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:11 PM
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And If it was you could still open carry here
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:12 PM
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Just OC, but watch out for the anti-OC zealots.
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Old 02-02-2014, 03:58 PM
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Just OC, but watch out for the anti-OC zealots.
I agree that if he has no other option then he should OC but why shouldn't he look into gettign the conviction removed from his record?
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:02 PM
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Unfortunately, this is not as simple as it seems. As much as I disagree with it, just having an arrest on your record puts you in a different class of people. You didn't say if you were convicted or not, but just having that arrest makes you a "bad person" in the eyes of most. Like I said, that's wrong, but it is the way of things.

Further, those who obtain a concealed license tend to be held to a higher standard. That's not right either, but it is also just the way it is. The authorities expect that because you passed the class, that you have no excuse for not knowing the law and should be following it. Again, it's not right, but it is how people react.

I have a friend who was denied a license because he had a report of domestic abuse. It's important to note that it was a report, not an arrest, conviction or jail time. He and his wife got in an argument and she called the cops and said he had a gun. He didn't even own a gun at that time and it was sorted out when the cops got there, but they still filed a report and the word "gun" was on it. So, they denied him a license.

Welcome to the overly strict world of concealed carry. Like it was said earlier, get a lawyer. That is probably your only chance. Open carry is marginal at best. With your record it could lead to more trouble even though you're totally clean. I feel for you.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:59 PM
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I agree that if he has no other option then he should OC but why shouldn't he look into gettign the conviction removed from his record?
He certainly can try, I know of 2 cases in my county where people have gotten their right to purchase firearms restored after "domestic disputes".
One required a lawyer's intervention, the other did not.
Domestic disturbance is different from drug involvement though.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:30 PM
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Further, those who obtain a concealed license tend to be held to a higher standard. That's not right either, but it is also just the way it is...
I'm going to have to differ my opinion from yours, Ras. I think it IS right that those who obtain a CCW are held to a higher standard. I feel the same way about cops, physicians, soldiers. I wish it were true with drivers of automobiles and politicians.

A dick head with a gun is more of a problem than a dick head with a T shirt or a cellphone or a donut. We hear frequently, right here, that carrying a gun means we should AVOID problem areas and situations whenever possible, rather than charge in and say "I'm not scared, I've got a gun". That seems like a "higher standard" to me.

I certainly hold myself to a higher standard when I'm armed than when I'm not. And I hold myself to a higher standard all of the time simply because I am a CCW holder, even when I'm not armed.


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Old 02-03-2014, 02:36 AM
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Sgt Lumpy,
There is a very fine line here. I hope I can explain my thinking clearly.

I believe that owning and carrying a firearm is a right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. Because it's a right and not a privilege, I believe there should be no requirement from the government to carry.

I am a certified NRA Instructor. I have held a few classes and I've done a lot of impromptu training. I've seen a LOT of seriously stupid gun handling. Not all was done by stupid people. Much was from shear ignorance. So, I know the value of quality training and I believe that everyone who carries a gun should seek out the best training they can get.

Now, even though I think people should get training, I'm opposed to the government forcing that training on a person in order to exercise their right. Neither should a person be held to a higher standard because they have sought training; the law must apply equally to all. As soon as a different standard exists for a certain class of people, the entire idea of freedom breaks down.

I, like you, do indeed hold myself to a higher standard. Not because of what I carry, but because it's right. I stop at stop signs, I try to stay within the speed limit, I don't lie and I don't take advantage of people. I expect no more from my fellows than I expect from myself. By the same measure that I judge, I will be judged.

Cops, physicians, soldiers, lawyers and politicians all hold other people's livelihood in their hands. I expect them to do their jobs diligently and with the understanding of what happens when they do not. Garbage men, postal carriers, store clerks and tree trimmers may not have the same direct influence on a person's life, but I expect them to do their job to the best of their ability as well. Thus, I hold them to the same standard as I hold anyone.

So, no, I don't think a CCW holder should be held to a higher standard. If they break the law, they should be punished accordingly. The same should go for any person. I guess it could be said differently; I don't think those without a CCW should be treated more leniently because they don't have a license.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:01 AM
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...So, no, I don't think a CCW holder should be held to a higher standard. If they break the law, they should be punished accordingly. The same should go for any person. I guess it could be said differently; I don't think those without a CCW should be treated more leniently because they don't have a license.
OK. I'm more clear on your angle now, I think.

Still, I'm not sure I'm in total agreement. That's perfectly ok, of course.

I'm simply suggesting that if you're carrying a weapon, you automatically have (should have) a higher standard of "acceptable behavior".

Because there's more than one of us in the country, we're faced with the concept of governing ourselves. Nobody likes a politician a thousand miles away "telling me how to run my life". But most are pretty ok with the idea that that same politician can tell a habitual or violent criminal offender that his right to bear arms will be restricted or removed.

We have all kinds of laws that relate to that concept and most of us are probably very ok with them. Using a gun to commit a crime is a higher level of crime than if you don't use a gun. I'm certainly not suggesting that CCW permit holders pay more for a speeding ticket. Those two are totally unrelated. But there surely are behaviors that most would agree are not something we want gun bearers to engage in, even if they aren't using the gun while doing that behavior. I don't think I want drug smugglers or rapists or burglars to be allowed to bear arms in their "non crime committing hours".

That's what I'm suggesting when I say that we, gun owners, gun bearers, are (and should be) held to a higher standard. We SHOULD be doing it ourselves. We SHOULD be taking your classes and learn to handle firearms safely. But very often we don't do it ourselves. So the rest of the people around us get together and "require it" of the others.


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Old 02-03-2014, 09:36 AM
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...or he slipped through NICS when he got his guns...Do weigh that risk carefully
I think that this plays a pivotal role in whether or not the OP should appeal the decision or try to get his record expunged. Form 4473 does ask (11e) "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any controlled substance?"

Technically, you could truthfully answer "no" in this case because "are you" implies "now" and not "at some time in the past".

But since the form only spells out a misdemenor offense specifically for domestic violence as being something for which you can be denied, I think that the OP is okay here.

Unless of course, the OP still uses said controlled-substance for "recreational use". In that case, he used it before and uses it now, so there might be some grey area as to how truthful he was when he answered question 11e.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:37 PM
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I have seen several post suggesting getting a out of state permit if it reciprocates... Be sure to check the law! In the state of Washington, if you have been denied a CPL, you can NOT legally carry concealed in the state even if you have an out of state license/permit to conceal carry. Your out of state permit becomes nil and void if you are denied a WA license and a resident of WA.

Just something to check into.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:27 PM
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The simple, non-judgemental answer is yes. You can OC but if you're stopped by a LEO, your record will cause you to be "inconvenienced" even further. I mean no disrespect, but I think your best course of action would be to consult with an attorney about this rather than asking these kinds of questions in a public forum.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:06 PM
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Default I wonder a lot

I wonder what public good comes from this gentleman being prohibited from carrying concealed & permitted to carry openly?

If he is a "menace" with a concealed weapon wouldn't he be the same with an openly carried gun?

I wonder too that in the current climate of cannabis being now legal in several states, how past convictions, possession etc which are now not illegal are considered?
Anyone with a bootlegging conviction from the prohibition era able to comment on their experience?
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:33 PM
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Short answer......Get yourself one of those thar expungements.

If you are going to open carry get yourself a good retention holster and dress appropriately.


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Old 04-07-2015, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JJD0527 View Post
I just think that its stupid...that I am legally allowed to purchase firearms, however I am not allowed to conceal carry. It doesn't make any sense to me. Yes I broke a law and I m not denying that but they should look more closely at my record and see that I have never attempted to hurt anyone or rob any businesses. Honestly I would prefer to conceal carry, unfortunately legally I can't. I m am aware of the laws concerning open carry (I' have read them many times)....I m still a little confused, however about transporting the firearm in my vehicle. I m pretty sure I can transport it as long as it is unloaded and in the trunk which is ironic because if I driving down the highway and some crazy person decides to pick me out and randomly shoot at me and my family, I have no defense except police and who knows how long it will take them to show up. Does anyone know the laws for transporting a handgun for sure?
This may seem to be a little bit of thread drift, but if you're still smoking weed, you're not legally able to possess a firearm.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by snubbyfan View Post
If you do decide to open carry in Pennsylvania, be aware that a permit is needed to open carry in the city of philadelphia and you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle.
And also when the state is in a state of emergency.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:11 PM
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Not to be a jerk but actions have consequences. You made a decision to risk the consequences of breaking the law when you sold the weed.

As for open carrying this is speculation but if someone calls you in for MWAG and the cops that show up run your record your prior conviction could cause you some hassles with the cops.

My advice is to consult a lawyer and see if there is any way to have the conviction expunged from your record.

I see your point, but I think that 2nd Amendment proponents need to address the concept that our 2nd amendment rights are being stripped by linking them to non firearm crimes. I see it as a way that antis have achieved a type of back door gun control.

Funny that they don't link other crimes to permanently losing your first Amendment right of free speech, or the permanent loss of the 4th and your right to be free of illegal search and seizure. but the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms can be permanently compromised.

Like I said, backdoor gun control.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:12 PM
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Anyone with a bootlegging conviction from the prohibition era able to comment on their experience?
Someone who turned 18 on the last day of prohibition would be celebrating their 100th birthday this year.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:28 PM
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I see your point, but I think that 2nd Amendment proponents need to address the concept that our 2nd amendment rights are being stripped by linking them to non firearm crimes. I see it as a way that antis have achieved a type of back door gun control.

Funny that they don't link other crimes to permanently losing your first Amendment right of free speech, or the permanent loss of the 4th and your right to be free of illegal search and seizure. but the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms can be permanently compromised.

Like I said, backdoor gun control.
Your right to vote can be permanently compromised . . .
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:29 PM
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Default Open carry

While I do not open carry and won't, I've seen some interesting phenomenon.
There is a CCW instructor from Minnesota who carries openly at the front of his belt. Perhaps what's called "appendix carry."

It is a S&W revolver, last I checked a 6-shooter. He carries there to protect it from someone snatching it.

The interesting thing is how many people don't see it. My feeling is that if your only option is open carry, you can find a way to carry it in plain sight but not obvious.

On another occasion on a blisteringly hot day I was with friends having lunch in a Dennys in Milwaukee when four men walked in, dressed in business suits. Three of them had their coats slung over an arm. Those three were plain-clothes police officers and their guns were in plain sight on their hips. A few heads turned, but by no means all. I wondered whether being in a group of quite ordinary business men was part of the reason.

Anyway, good luck and be careful.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by internet troll View Post
I see your point, but I think that 2nd Amendment proponents need to address the concept that our 2nd amendment rights are being stripped by linking them to non firearm crimes. I see it as a way that antis have achieved a type of back door gun control.

Funny that they don't link other crimes to permanently losing your first Amendment right of free speech, or the permanent loss of the 4th and your right to be free of illegal search and seizure. but the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms can be permanently compromised.

Like I said, backdoor gun control.
You're right. I've seen people get their permits/license pulled for excessive speeding.
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Old 04-07-2015, 02:44 PM
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Your right to vote can be permanently compromised . . .
True, but which Amendment in the Bill of Rights guarantees the right to vote. I believe that it is written into the 14th Amendment that states have the right to decide who can be disenfranchised. In other words the Constitution addresses removing the right to vote from people.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:04 PM
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Ok. Here's a twist. The marijuana thing got me thinking. If you live in a state like Colorado, where pot is legal, and you choose to indulge, you are not breaking state law and a federal charge is pretty much not going to happen. However, if you purchase a firearm and answer 'No' on 4473 question 11e, are you lying on that form? If you are then you're committing a crime. I travel to Denver about once a year and I don't recall ever seeing a sporting goods store or gun store in the proximity of a pot store. Plenty of doughnut shops though. I think about these things.
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
I agree that if he has no other option then he should OC but why shouldn't he look into gettign the conviction removed from his record?
I would think that getting the conviction removed from your record would be the best thing to do, for many reasons, not just a CCW.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:15 PM
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Back to the original question.

If you don't have a carry permit, and can legally open carry, Open carry.

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Old 01-21-2016, 06:28 PM
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Given the choices....

A. Illegally carrying concealed
B. Unarmed
C. Legal open carry

I'd choose C.

I'll also make the choice not to preach to others about their past behavior.


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Old 01-21-2016, 07:13 PM
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Form 4473 does ask (11e) "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any controlled substance?"
So technically speaking a resident of CO, WA or any state with legal weed wouldn't be considered an "unlawful user"?

Or does Fed law supercede?
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Old 01-21-2016, 10:02 PM
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FWIW the OP hasn't even logged in in over a year
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Old 01-21-2016, 10:30 PM
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FWIW the OP hasn't even logged in in over a year
No matter. Open carry threads are timeless.
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:39 PM
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It is funny to me no one likes lawyers until it will benefit them... that includes me. The OP needs one now.
For what it is worth I open carried a couple of days last week, no calls for man with a gun that I know of, no pointing, screaming running children...I did not get in a gun fight in the middle of the street, the clerk at the local 7-11 did not even bat an eye.....
OC is not even a month old in Texas... maybe I should give it a little more time for these events to manifest themselves.
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:46 PM
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It is funny to me no one likes lawyers until it will benefit them... that includes me. The OP needs one now.
For what it is worth I open carried a couple of days last week, no calls for man with a gun that I know of, no pointing, screaming running children...I did not get in a gun fight in the middle of the street, the clerk at the local 7-11 did not even bat an eye.....
OC is not even a month old in Texas... maybe I should give it a little more time for these events to manifest themselves.
The hysteria is always before pro-gun legislation is passed. Once passed, the naysayers of freedom go on to something else to cry about.
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Old 01-25-2016, 05:03 PM
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So technically speaking a resident of CO, WA or any state with legal weed wouldn't be considered an "unlawful user"?

Or does Fed law supercede?
It's a common myth that marijuana is legal some places in the U.S.A. There are some places that it is not against state law. Pot is a schedule one narcotic. Which makes it illegal everywhere in the U.S.A. It doesn't matter how many states have statewide votes or how many state legislatures vote to decriminalize. It is still 100% illegal in 100% of the states. State law doesn't change federal law.
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