.38 special or .380?

[kudzu3]

This must have been discussed before, but a search didn't turn up anything. You can have either a .38 special or a .380 handgun for concealed carry, you do not hand load, which would it be, and what handgun would you choose? Why?

[shouldazagged]

Emphatically, the .38 Special. More powerful in most loadings, versatile, available in wide range of bullet designs and power factors, accurate in most revolvers, etc., etc.

It's been proving its effectiveness for a very long time. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that .380 ACP pistols can be picky about ammunition, especially bullet design.

[Pequod]

Kudzu3,

I purchased a Ruger LCP a few months back, a relative in Houston TX carries one and likes it. After looking long and hard at ammo choices and availability, it is going for sale NIB, and I am ordering a Ruger LCR. I also have a Model 36 J frame I intend to use, but is it 3" barrel with hammer so the LCR should be easier to carry.

I do reload, but even if I did not, the price and range of .38 special ammo versus .380 was the factor for me. At a gun show last weekend I could buy 100 round .38 special practice round lots for less than $20. Hard to find 20 round boxes of .380 for that price. I realize most will not shoot hundreds of rounds through a .380 for fun at the range, but I don't want to carry a gun I don't shoot regularly and .380 ammo is just crazy in price and scarcity. It probably will improve over time with more people using .380 but it is a very specialized round.

Pequod

[forrestinmathews]

.38 special. Hands down. The initial Investment of the firearm will likely be higher, but the ammunition availability is greater. The self defense ammo avaiability is greater and the brass lends itself to being reloaded with nothing more than a lee loader kit multiple times. There is zero reason not to reload if you own a .38. It's an easy case to learn on. I'd actually buy a .357 M&P 340 with the crimson trace and no lock. The added expense is worth the extra ammunition flexibility to me and the laser is helpful at times.

[Mike Grasso]

38spl.

342PD very light.
Ammo choice, lots of them.

Almost twice the case size....

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Google An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power. Read through it and see what you think.

After due consideration, I chose these to satisfy my carry needs.

[Badkarma 1]

Though I vastly prefer the .38, there is a place for the micro .380s like the LCP, SIG P238 and such. The .380s mentioned are fir when you need maximum concealment, they've pretty much replaced the .25 and .32 in that department.
So a .38 snub for casual wear, and a. .380 for formal times.
Dale

[Amp]

I own and carry a 640 for many years and prefer revolvers, but if I had a quality 380 I believe I would feel protected at close ranges.

[MJB]

I was about to start a thread very similar to this. I own an LCP (7rd mag) and an LCR in .38+P so it becomes a choice of 8rds of .380 vs. 5 rds of .38+P.

I'm leaning towards the .38 when in jeans and the .380 when in shorts.

[Old cop]

I had to use deadly force during my 30 yr. LEO career and it was my .38 that did the job, and is the reason I'm still around. I cannot say the same for the .380 so for me the choice is simple. I do own a .380 & a .32 acp that get carried as needs dictate, which is not that often.

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by Amp

I own and carry a 640 for many years and prefer revolvers, but if I had a quality 380 I believe I would feel protected at close ranges.

I've carried a dashless 640 for years as well, but I have no problem with your conclusion. The .380 has rendered a lot of threats null and void. But if I could only have one or the other it would be the .38 Special.

[LoboGunLeather]

I would not feel unarmed with any quality handgun in either caliber. The .38 Special will certainly outperform any .380 load by any standard, and a good double action revolver is likely to be more reliable under any foreseeable circumstances. So, if my choices were limited to the two pieces I would feel compelled to take the .38 Special, preferably in a S&W J-frame revolver.

[snubbyfan]

When I was researching for a concealed carry gun, I had certain parameters in mind. It had to be dependable, lightweight, small enough for a pocket, in a caliber used at one time by either the military or police and lots of fun to shoot at the range. It came down to either a 442 or a 642. It just happened that someone at work had a used 442 that they shot once, cleaned and put in a drawer.
I bought it from them, did a detail clean and while I had it apart, did a trigger job with a spring change, got some Pachmayr compact grips and a Laserlyte side mounted laser.
I made a few holsters and now it's my constant companion, either in my pocket or riding on my right hip loaded with 110 grain Federal Hydra-shoks, with a couple of loaded quick strips in my left front pocket.

[Faulkner]

Currently, most of the time I carry either a 42 or 442 when off duty, but I'm not emphatically hung up on the .38 Special. I suppose I would lean in favor the .38 Special but I certainly would not write off the .380 ACP as a whimp.




For over a decade I carried a .380 PPK/S as a BUG and sometimes off duty concealed carry and am very comfortable with it. Mine was very accurate and very reliable with Federal Hydra-shok JHP's. It was also easy to carry concealed in a variety of carry options, but the main reason I transitioned away from it was because of weight.

[ACP230]

I would have to pick the .38.
Got the guns for it. And the holsters for them.

[Mike Grasso]

Originally Posted by ACP230

I would have to pick the .38.
Got the guns for it. And the holsters for them.

ACP230,

I see you're in the UP, I'll be in your neck of the woods next week, in Escanaba / Gladstone.
I help host the "Grind In" at Bark River Knives a couple of times a year.

Mike

[BobR1]

Another vote for a 38 Special Revolver.

If you pocket carry, go light weight. The S&W 442, or even better, and more expensive the 340 M&P. In a Ruger the LCR38 or LCR357. The LCR357 has a Stainless Steel frame, and is a little heavier. It soaks up recoil better than the lighter weight airweights.

ON THE BELT CARRY:
In A S&W you have the Model 60, 640, and 649, in Steel J Frames.
A little larger and more shootable you have the 2-3 Inch Model 10, 13, 19, 64, 65, and 66.
In a Ruger you have the SP101 in a 2.25 Inch and a 3-1/16 Inch barrel.

I have the 442 Pro Moon Clip. I have owned an LCR357.
On up in size I have both the SP101 38 Special in a 2.25 Inch, and a 3-1/16 Inch 357 Magnum.
On up in size I also have a Model 10 and a Model 15 Snub.
I also have a 2.75 Inch 315 Night Guard and a 3 Inch 66-2.

Of those listed the 442, and LCR357 are the only one's I consider to be of Pocket Carry Weight.
All the others carry and conceal about equally well in a Pancake holster on the belt.

Just My 2 Cents

Bob

[Rastoff]

I would choose an SP101.

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Mike Grasso

38spl.

342PD very light.
Ammo choice, lots of them.

Almost twice the case size....

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Donn

A picture is worth a thousand words.

A picture is valuable, but can also be deceiving. Bigger is not always better. Case in point, 9mm vs .38SPL:


The 9mm has a much smaller case, but is a more powerful round. Check out this article: 9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

Of course this thread isn't about the 9mm. I'm just saying this to say that the picture of the .38 and .380 doesn't answer the question of which is better. If it did, then the .38SPL would clearly be better than the 9mm and, well...that's another debate.

[HankG]

"Concealed" is the predominant word in my mind. How concealed does the handgun have to be. It really doesn't matter what the law says. That goes right out the door when a young mom or a little old lady sees the bulge under your shirt and starts to scream. Whether you're legal or not stops being relevant when the cops arrive.

I can conceal a small .380 auto much better than a J frame .38 Special. That's why I carry one in the spring, summer and fall when I wear shorts and a T shirt or pullover sport shirt. In the late fall or winter, the J frame .38 can become a better option because of the heavier coat with an inside breast pocket. I DO NOT FREQUENT TAVERNS OR PLACES WHERE A LOT OF DRINKING IS DONE, OR LIVE AND VISIT PEOPLE IN HIGH CRIME AREAS.

The .38 Special will hit harder than the .380 acp and won't jam but if you shoot a man in the face with a .380 a few times he will drop. If my .380 comes out that's where the bullets are going to go or it won't come out. If you buy a .380 auto make sure you do your "due diligence" because most of the polymer micros for sale (I own two), KelTec, Diamondback, Ruger etc, have their quirks, and quirks can cause problems when you have to defend your life.

Just my opinion...there are many others equally as good!

[mc5aw]

Both have their respective places, as well as supporters. .380 has made a comeback the past couple years with an increase in market share for small CCW semi-autos. .38 Special is the tried and true round of generations of LEOs and civilians. Personally, I think the .380 is outdated and the answer to an unasked question. However, if a person can handle a .380 handgun better than any other caliber, then that's the best round for them. I choose .38 Specials and J-frames for my CCW needs.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I would choose an SP101.

That will be my next handgun purchase, in a month or two.
Change out the grips and I'll be good to go.

[b_san]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I would choose an SP101.

But then you'd have an ugly gun in your arsenal...

I kid, the new SP101 with the wood grips and FO site has actually grown on me a little everytime Im at the LGS, not enough to buy one (yet) but it's ameliorated a little bit of my Ruger disgust.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by b_san

But then you'd have an ugly gun in your arsenal...

This may be true, but it wouldn't be the only one. I have a Ruger Blackhawk, chambered in .357Mag, and I think it's ugly too, but it's a good shooter.

The SP101 is not a fine gun, it's functional. The trigger is not great, but can be upgraded a little with some springs. It can be upgraded a lot with some gun smith work, but doesn't need it.

I actually like the factory grip. Small enough to conceal, but big enough to fit my hand OK.

Alas, it is no longer on the approved list for CA.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

This may be true, but it wouldn't be the only one. I have a Ruger Blackhawk, chambered in .357Mag, and I think it's ugly too, but it's a good shooter.

The SP101 is not a fine gun, it's functional. The trigger is not great, but can be upgraded a little with some springs. It can be upgraded a lot with some gun smith work, but doesn't need it.

I actually like the factory grip. Small enough to conceal, but big enough to fit my hand OK.

Alas, it is no longer on the approved list for CA.

I compared it to a S&W 686 at a gun show last week and found little difference...except the price.

[fdw]

I traded my LCR 38 for a Sig P238 and am very pleased. I shoot the gun much better without nearly the "felt recoil".

[sac-gunslinger]

A best friend in Utah, a dyed-in-the-wool-45-or-nothing type of guy, bought he and his wife matching Sig P238s for summer carry. He shot enough Critical Defense ammo to be comfortable with it. Many studies show that there is less difference between the effectiveness of rounds than many of our arguments suggest.

Remember the NRA has statistics that suggest 96% or better of civilian armed encounters end with the presentation of a weapon. The BG gets scared away before we even have to fire a shot.

Me? I still carry a 38 Special snubbie but that is more a factor of what I am comfortable with than anything. I taught double-action shooting for so many years that it is second nature to me.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by sac-gunslinger

Remember the NRA has statistics that suggest 96% or better of civilian armed encounters end with the presentation of a weapon. The BG gets scared away before we even have to fire a shot.

Please post a link to those statistics. I've never seen or heard of this NRA study.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Please post a link to those statistics. I've never seen or heard of this NRA study.

I don't know either, but I would guess it is probably related to Gary Kleck or National Self Defense Survey claiming 2.5 million uses of guns for defense but small percentage of actual shootings.

[Grayfox]

I would be happy with either caliber.
I think the more practical question is which one you're more comfotable with and suits your particular clothing/carry style?

[venomballistics]

380 or 38 special ... thats easy .... take the 45 ACP

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

A picture is valuable, but can also be deceiving. Bigger is not always better. Case in point, 9mm vs .38SPL:


The 9mm has a much smaller case, but is a more powerful round. Check out this article: 9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

Of course this thread isn't about the 9mm. I'm just saying this to say that the picture of the .38 and .380 doesn't answer the question of which is better. If it did, then the .38SPL would clearly be better than the 9mm and, well...that's another debate.

that would be incorrect .. 9MM and 38 are just about equal power. they differ in how that power is used .. 9 favors speed, 38 favors weight
the part I don't understand is the sudden trend of half the world thinking they need a 380 like a heart transplant and make every excuse possible to avoid anything larger

[Arik]

38spl.

I have not seen a reliable 380 yet.

45acp if fmj otherwise 9mm hp

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

...9MM and 38 are just about equal power.

Not according to the article I posted. I don't have the necessary equipment to do any actual measuring and I haven't run the math myself, but what they said sounds right.

Do you have some other test data that says otherwise?

Even so, if they are equal power, that still supports what I said that looks can be deceiving. In that case, the 9mm is much smaller and still has the same power.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

380 or 38 special ... thats easy .... take the 45 ACP

Sounds like the young James Kirk dealing with the Kobayashi Maru.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Not according to the article I posted. I don't have the necessary equipment to do any actual measuring and I haven't run the math myself, but what they said sounds right.

Do you have some other test data that says otherwise?

Even so, if they are equal power, that still supports what I said that looks can be deceiving. In that case, the 9mm is much smaller and still has the same power.

Practically every loading manual in print.
mass * Velocity squared gives you its energy.
9mm and 38 spec run so close I disregard any difference

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Grayfox

I would be happy with either caliber.
I think the more practical question is which one you're more comfotable with and suits your particular clothing/carry style?

That's what I was going to say. What feels the best, is what you'll do best with. Just remember- practice, practice, practice. FWIW, I have my choice of a 686, M&P 9c, and yes my 500 mag. Any guess which one I carry?

[oberon]

.38 Special has been around a long time.
It is the single most handloaded round of all time. Not .380.
Cops shot bad guys with it for over 100 years. Not .380.
The DA revolver is guaranteed to go 'bang' just by pullin' the trigger.
Not .380.
Effective defense rounds in a wide range of weight & power are easily available. Not .380.
.38 Specials hit a ton. Not .380.
Keep the .380 for a hideout/backup.
Use the .38 Special for serious social work.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by oberon

.38 Special has been around a long time.
It is the single most handloaded round of all time. Not .380.
Cops shot bad guys with it for over 100 years. Not .380.
The DA revolver is guaranteed to go 'bang' just by pullin' the trigger.
Not .380.
Effective defense rounds in a wide range of weight & power are easily available. Not .380.
.38 Specials hit a ton. Not .380.
Keep the .380 for a hideout/backup.
Use the .38 Special for serious social work.

Pick a caliber...ANY caliber, and stories abound about its failure to stop a threat in given situations. If "accurately" used for its intended purpose ANY caliber will do the job. .380 included.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Sounds like the young James Kirk dealing with the Kobayashi Maru.

yeah ... it's worked for me for years
really though .. I hope to get people to explore options other than the 380. I'd rather see the folks here prevail in a gunfight than the repeat offending thug they might find themselves fighting with.
The industry is doing some heavy development work around CCW to provide us with better options than we've ever seen before, yet people seem to still gravitate to the 380 even when they could have 9MM 40 or 45, often in a comparable package.

[Fastbolt]

.38 special or .380?

First of all, I don't see this as a question where the answer has to be 'one or the other' for someone. Maybe an individual shooter might better benefit from a larger revolver or auto pistol.

Considering how hard it can be for many owners to safely manipulate & handle itty bitty pocket guns, as well as fire either a diminutive .38 Spl snub or a .380 pistol consistently accurately, controllably & effectively ... and do so under stress ... the answer may often be a resounding "neither".

Both calibers have served as pocket guns for decades, though, and will probably continue to do so for decades to come (presuming status quo on technology, laws, etc).

Arguing about differences in "power" between the .38's & .380's is like debating the merits of power differences between the Chevy Corvair engines or the Porsche 914 engines. Sure, there were differences in "power", but at the end of the day, you were trying to split hairs between different low-powered rally-style cars ... not muscle cars, dragsters, funny cars, Indy, etc.

Now, I happen to like the way the venerable .38 S&W Special has benefited from design improvements in hollowpoints over the years, but there are still proponents and satisfied users of the soft recoiling 148gr target wadcutter, the 158gr SWC and the heavier recoiling 158gr SWCHP/LHP +P.

I use a number of different modern loads, and even some of the older style LHP +P, and focus more on skillset & tactics than trying to convince myself that the little 5-shot snubs are something more than they are.

I do much the same thing with my little LCP .380, as well. It's not a 9mm or .38 Spl ... but then neither is it a .22, .25 or .32 ACP.

The only reason I even own a LCP is because I wanted something in a no-more-minimal-than-necessary defensive caliber (meaning I acknowledge to myself that it's not a service caliber), which could be pocket-holstered in situations where my assorted J's were still too large/thick to be pocketed.

Spare me the "comforting v. comfortable" lecture, as I'm familiar with the assorted compromises involved in selecting any handgun for use as a dedicated defensive weapon, and I've spent enough time carrying "full-size fighting handguns" over the course of my career. I no longer feel an over-riding need to always dress around a full-size, or even compact, handgun everyday.

I understand the inherent risk assessment and decision-making involved for my own perceived needs and circumstances.

In the end, rather than make general recommendations for any of our folks when it comes to comparing a .38 Spl snub to a .380 auto for a secondary, off-duty or retirement weapon, I direct them to examining their familiarity & skillset with either weapon/caliber. Then, I suggest they consider the conditions under which they anticipate using either gun, and whether either gun might present operating or functioning issues beyond the simple consideration of the caliber.

After all, not everyone can hold an itty bitty .380 so it feeds & functions normally. Slide bite and slide interference can occur with some gun/shooter combinations.

Not everyone can effectively use a DAO .38 Snub, either, or can control the felt recoil in order to make consistently accurate hits on the intended threat target. (Although the smallest of the .380's can certainly generate some snappy felt recoil forces, too.)

Caliber decisions are just ... well, caliber decisions ... and there are a number of other arguably more critical considerations and priorities when it comes to the selection of a lawfully carried dedicated defensive weapon.

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Please post a link to those statistics. I've never seen or heard of this NRA study.

Rastof, that statistic appeared in American Rifleman many years ago. I will have to start digging to find the exact reference.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by sac-gunslinger

Rastof, that statistic appeared in American Rifleman many years ago. I will have to start digging to find the exact reference.

I would appreciate it because everything I've been taught says otherwise.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by kudzu3

This must have been discussed before, but a search didn't turn up anything. You can have either a .38 special or a .380 handgun for concealed carry, you do not hand load, which would it be, and what handgun would you choose? Why?

.38 Special, hands down. Heavier bullets. More powder capacity. That equals more power. Then there's the factor of bullet design. With a revolver, you can have the most devastating bullet design you like without concerning yourself with its feeding reliability, as you would have to concern yourself about with a .380. Then there's the fact that once a revolver has been checked out as reliable and in mechanically good shape, it will tend to be less prone to stoppages than an auto pistol in equally good mechanical shape. Not to mention not having to chase after the brass in order to take it home for reloading.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Please post a link to those statistics. I've never seen or heard of this NRA study.

I don't know the exact figure, but this statistic has been available at least since the 1970s, i.e., that the vast majority of times a handgun is used in self-defense, not a shot is fired, i.e., the presentation of the weapon was all that was needed to cause the bad guy to find an easier victim.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by The Real Hawkeye

I don't know the exact figure, but this statistic has been available at least since the 1970s, i.e., that the vast majority of times a handgun is used in self-defense, not a shot is fired, i.e., the presentation of the weapon was all that was needed to cause the bad guy to find an easier victim.

While this sounds good, if it were true, it would be easy to point to a real study or results. Look, I'm not saying it's not true. I just want to see something other than, "some guy on the internet said..." I say this especially in the light of what we see more and more of today.

Today we have a much higher involvement of drugs. A bad guy on drugs may not even be able to recognize a gun and the potential threat it imposes. To suggest to a student that just pulling your gun will stop the threat is teaching a bad mindset. It will cause a person to hesitate and that's enough to get them killed.

There are many things "available since years ago" that are just plain wrong. For example, the advice to rack your shotgun and the criminal will go running has been around for at least a hundred years and is completely false.

[JayFramer]

My vote goes to the .38 special, in a good J-frame. Pick your flavor!

In terms of effectiveness vs. the .380 ACP on a ballistic level, the .38 special, particularly the +P variety, is the winner. I think the ability to fire considerably heavier bullets than the .380 is the reason why you can get both good expansion and penetration from the .38 special even at short barrel velocities. Quite a bit harder to do with the .380 ACP.

I carry a S&W M642 loaded with Remington Golden Saber HPJ 125 grain .38 special +Ps. This is a consistent, reliable load that performs just as good if not better than the ever popular Speer Gold Dot 135 grain .38 special +P Short Barrel load.

Various tests I've found online typically show between 13-14" of penetration with consistent expansion of about .60" diameter. If properly placed I am fully confident this round will do it's job.

[fdw]

Originally Posted by JayFramer

If properly placed I am fully confident this round will do it's job.

If properly placed any round will do its job. 22 included. Point being, shot placement is king, caliber is queen.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

While this sounds good, if it were true, it would be easy to point to a real study or results.

Pretty easy, took about five seconds to Google.

Whether of not one chooses to accept or reject the various studies, surveys and conclusions is another matter.

Defensive gun use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia