Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-27-2014, 02:31 PM
66Park's Avatar
66Park 66Park is offline
SWCA Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,073
Likes: 66
Liked 654 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDWYO View Post
Wearing my Like button out. Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and advice. This is just what I was looking for.
It's a good topic. Thanks for bringing it up. The beauty of defending myself with a handgun is I love shooting, so I go to the range regularly and practice. I don't have to force myself to do what I love to do. Shooting is what I do for pleasure.

A gun has the potential to protect someone who can't protect themselves hand to hand. However, I LOVED Aikido, and if you have the interest and the drive, martial arts are great and can be very useful, even as you get older. When I was younger, I took a train for a half hour each direction eight times a week for the classes. Without the interest or ability to keep up the practice, it's easy for your hand to hand skills to fail you when you need them. It's easy for your shooting skills to as well. They both require a lot of effort and dedication, but for an older person or someone with a physical issue, I think your chances are a whole lot better with the gun. I no longer have the drive to reacquire martial arts skills and keep them tuned up. I wish I did. It can be a lot of fun!
__________________
Peter
S&WCA #2620
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-27-2014, 04:37 PM
ispcapt ispcapt is online now
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 682
Likes: 36
Liked 581 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Why do you carry a firearm? It's for your protection in a deadly force situation. Right? So the only time you're going to protect yourself is when you're in a deadly force situation? It doesn't matter if your 17 or 77 you're more likely to have to protect yourself from a non-deadly force threat than a deadly force encounter. And if anyone thinks they can talk their way out of every physical confrontation then they're just setting themselves up for ending up on the short end.
One of my defensive tactics instructors had a saying. "When the only tool in your tool box is a hammer then every problem becomes a nail."
__________________
183rd FBINA
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-27-2014, 04:45 PM
Lost Lake's Avatar
Lost Lake Lost Lake is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 4,295
Likes: 1,018
Liked 2,320 Times in 1,101 Posts
Default

I am in a similar situation as Smoke,
49, and I earned a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do 5 years ago. I do 4 miles on my elliptical every day and work out on a Bowflex every other. I can bench the stack (210lbs) 20 times no problem.

I have no delusions about fighting a 20 something year old. If necessary I could maybe fight my way out of a corner if I was lucky, and retrieve my weapon.

Becoming a Black Belt taught me there's a lot of fighting to do and a lot of ways to lose said fights. I know some good moves, but in reality I believe you should consistently know a couple effective procedures and practice the snot out of them.

Most effective: Smooth draw and excellent aim.

.
__________________
Kirk / Spock 2016
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #54  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:28 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

There are three types of martial arts schools; historical or traditional, sport and self-defense. Every school contains aspects of all three, but every school focuses on one.

Historical/Traditional
This school is focused on doing things exactly the way master X did it 2,000 years ago. The moves, stances and strikes must be perfect and there is only one way to do a particular technique or move. These schools often avoid any improvements or modifications to old techniques. Effective, but rigid.

Sport
My sister holds a 3rd degree black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do and her school fits this description. They have many "forms" that must be memorized to achieve rank advancement. Their sparring is focused toward scoring points more than doing damage. They host and travel to competitions where excellence in forms or sparring for points is the focus. They require pads when sparring, but no one wears a cup. The groin is an illegal target and they never use it. These schools are super popular and out number all other schools at least 10 to 1.

Self-Defense
This style of school spends most of their time on damage to the attacker. They work hard on the "combat mindset" and being aware. Chuck Sullivan, mentioned earlier, used to bring old couches and bar stools into his school and have the students spar in street clothes. He figured if you're gonna learn to defend yourself, you might as well practice it in an environment that you're likely to be in. Techniques are taught, but only to learn the movements. The idea is to use whatever is necessary for the situation that presents itself. Precision is not the goal, effectiveness is. These types of schools are not popular. Invariably they include some pain in the instruction because they seek to be as real as possible. Being hurt is different from being injured. Hurt means you feel some pain, you walk it off and get back to work. Injured means you're bleeding or need medical attention. A true self-defense school will include some pain, it's the nature of the business, but they work hard not to injure any student. This is why they are not popular and only 20% of the students stick with it long enough to earn a black belt.


Please don't take the previous as an attack on different schools, it's not. Anyone who devotes themselves to a course of instruction in any martial art will be able to effectively use it to defend themselves. I'm just pointing out that there are differences. Let's face it, all empty hand martial arts were developed to defend against tyrannical governments that outlawed fighting implements. This is why I say, I am the weapon. Anything I'm holding is just a tool.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #55  
Old 02-27-2014, 07:58 PM
ProgressiveTruth ProgressiveTruth is offline
Banned
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa.
Posts: 99
Likes: 199
Liked 85 Times in 26 Posts
Default

I understand what you are saying. I was trained hand to hand many moons ago. I was thrown 15ft into the air by a car and landed on my face and hands. 80% of my body is broken. Much more than my body was broken.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-27-2014, 08:07 PM
ProgressiveTruth ProgressiveTruth is offline
Banned
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa.
Posts: 99
Likes: 199
Liked 85 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Ok, great. Just don't flip this scene. If the rolls were reversed no one would have heard of that law. And no one has...till now.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-27-2014, 08:12 PM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Anyone who devotes themselves to a course of instruction in any martial art will be able to effectively use it to defend themselves.
Well, I wouldn't go that far Rastoff. There are many recorded instances of people, well trained in a martial art, that were sadly disappointed when their skills were put to the test on the street.

I think you would really be glad if you read Rory Millers Book-Meditations on violence.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #58  
Old 02-27-2014, 08:48 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Well, I wouldn't go that far Rastoff. There are many recorded instances of people, well trained in a martial art, that were sadly disappointed when their skills were put to the test on the street.
This is true, but my point was not that you'll prevail on the street, just that I don't consider one school/style definitively better than another.

Even so, note that I said someone who devotes themselves to it. Most are just filling a gap in their lives and aren't really devoted to the art. A devoted student in anything will excel at it.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #59  
Old 02-27-2014, 09:50 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washifornia
Posts: 7,231
Likes: 5,722
Liked 8,298 Times in 2,890 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
When your young, tough and fit, one can afford to take chances on the outcome of a physical scuffle, or wrestling match. Old men who have wrestling matches with a young fit attacker are
more likely to have their gun taken away from them and used on them. So if I am attacked physically and I am carrying my
guns, it is a life or death situation since I don't want my guns
used on me. Some predators prey on the old and the disabled.
and the wolves usually attack old deer, as well as young calves
that they perceive as easy prey. So if one does everything one can do to avoid the fight and they still want a wrestling match or a scuffle, yes, I will go for my guns as I will not be a willing
victim.
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even one punch is too much. I intend to put a stop to the festivities BEFORE I get punched.

If they ignore verbal commands then they will be looking down the barrel of my gun.

Like I said before, it really isn't that difficult.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-27-2014, 11:24 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even one punch is too much. I intend to put a stop to the festivities BEFORE I get punched.

If they ignore verbal commands then they will be looking down the barrel of my gun.

Like I said before, it really isn't that difficult.
This is absolutely the right thinking. The problem is that you don't always have the ability to avoid physical altercations. The guy could rush you or sneak up from behind. Situational awareness is great, but you can't be aware of everything all the time. This is why we should all get at least a little empty hand training.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #61  
Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 AM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
This is absolutely the right thinking. The problem is that you don't always have the ability to avoid physical altercations. The guy could rush you or sneak up from behind. Situational awareness is great, but you can't be aware of everything all the time. This is why we should all get at least a little empty hand training.
This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.

But bear in mind, the most dangerous prison gang in the U.S. doesn't require its members to practice martial art, they study anatomy.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!

Last edited by Old TexMex; 02-28-2014 at 12:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-28-2014, 12:34 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.
What's confusing about it? I will try to explain or put it in a different way if you can tell me what confused you.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-28-2014, 12:43 AM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:00 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
OK, I see it now.

Yes, I agree that situational awareness is the way to go. As we've talked about, avoidance is key.

The point I was getting at is that you cannot be aware of everything all the time. Sure, if someone sneaks up behind you and stabs you, no amount of training will help that. But, if someone grabs you, that is something you can defend against.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #65  
Old 02-28-2014, 08:28 AM
cjwalker cjwalker is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Great Plains, USA
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Jeeze. My dad who spent 22 years on the job, said to me, "Pepper spray, baby, carry it, spray it in that sombitches eyes, kick, claw, punch, do whatever to get away, grab a chair if it's handy and pin that sombitch against the wall and kick him hard.

*sighs* Ain't that hard. A little spray can does wonders.

No, I don't train hand-to-hand. I train "kick, scratch, bite, claw, scream "FIRE FIRE FIRE YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!"

Brings out the spectators.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #66  
Old 02-28-2014, 08:38 AM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.

Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.

There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.

Last edited by Protected One; 02-28-2014 at 08:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 02-28-2014, 09:23 AM
SgtLumpy SgtLumpy is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Phoenix Arizona, USA
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Liked 1,347 Times in 483 Posts
Default

Two observations -

- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.

- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.


Sgt Lumpy
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #68  
Old 02-28-2014, 09:36 AM
cjwalker cjwalker is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Great Plains, USA
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

Regards,
CJ
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #69  
Old 02-28-2014, 09:41 AM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post



Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.

There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.
No doubt. I'm glad I never said that situational awareness alone will keep you safe. I've never met anyone who thought they were, either.
A combination of everything you know and being able to stay teachable (61 and still going to new exercises in defense and executive protection), physical mobility/flexibility
will certainly come with martial art training, yoga-- but since this is a Smith&Wesson forum, a fair percentage of the members are handgunners. So avoiding having to use it in defense is important. (Situational awareness)
Being able to reach it in close quarters is important. (Physical fitness&mobility)
Being able to stop a threat by using it is important.(hitting the target)

Like I said in my first contribution to this thread: "It can't hurt."

But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."

Anyone who attends his classes or exercises directed by him will understand what he means.

I also carry garlic to repel vampires.(down on the border, you can't be too careful, ya know)
Stay safe out there and be lucky.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!

Last edited by Old TexMex; 02-28-2014 at 10:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02-28-2014, 10:30 AM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwalker View Post
I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

Regards,
CJ
The W.A.R. Academy, owned by Cliff Stewart. (Within Arms Reach)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #71  
Old 02-28-2014, 10:51 AM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
Two observations -

- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.

- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.


Sgt Lumpy
Exacto.
I get your point, but doubt that you've never seen two guys fight over whatever and neither intending to kill. Happens in bars and frat party parking lots all the time. Weddings, funerals and bar mitzvahs. Monkey fights, beatdowns by gangs on gang members and drunk tank brawls.
Interesting that a lot of the participants in these things were lightly trained in some dojo, or watched a lot of MMA on TV.
...but I guess that isn't what the OP is asking about.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!

Last edited by Old TexMex; 02-28-2014 at 10:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 02-28-2014, 10:53 AM
Springfeildkid585 Springfeildkid585 is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 490
Likes: 37
Liked 137 Times in 69 Posts
Default

One of those young guys here. I took a multi-disciplinary marshal arts class last summer through a friend who is an instructor in JKD and studies several other martial arts. We showed up wearing our street clothes and conducted everything as we would normally (ie we wore our guns, just unloaded them). We ran multiple scenarios, and it was essentially full go until someone was "dead". I can tell you, I never had time to just step back and draw. I always had to trap atleast one limb before I could get to my side arm and often as not I used a knife instead. I highly recommend hand to hand training for anyone who carries. Always remember the Tuller Drill. If they're inside 21 feet, they can get to you before you can get to your gun.
__________________
Just the opinion of a kid
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 02-28-2014, 11:12 AM
Donn's Avatar
Donn Donn is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,181
Likes: 5
Liked 2,565 Times in 1,093 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Even if it was just one????
Yes, even if it was just one. Taking on multiple bad guys only happens in the movies, where they come at you one at a time, and you can re-take the scene till you get it just right. One guy half my age has something all the training in the world won't supply, stamina from fewer birthdays. That, and your comment pre-supposes the younger guy doesn't have any training. Bottom line? If I'm on the spot, I'd better end it in less than 30 seconds. Any longer and I'm outta gas. As the popular saying goes, "I carry because I'm too young to die and too old to take a butt whipping."
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #74  
Old 02-28-2014, 11:30 AM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Yes, even if it was just one. Taking on multiple bad guys only happens in the movies, where they come at you one at a time, and you can re-take the scene till you get it just right. One guy half my age has something all the training in the world won't supply, stamina from fewer birthdays. That, and your comment pre-supposes the younger guy doesn't have any training. Bottom line? If I'm on the spot, I'd better end it in less than 30 seconds. Any longer and I'm outta gas. As the popular saying goes, "I carry because I'm too young to die and too old to take a butt whipping."
Agreed! Had I elaborated any more I would have said, against a threat whose ONLY advantage is "youth" - I'll end the fight in seconds. If he is adequatelly trained... that's trouble.

Last edited by Protected One; 02-28-2014 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Spelling
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #75  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:22 PM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,449
Likes: 1,543
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,531 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."
I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
__________________
Read More Post Less
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:32 PM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,449
Likes: 1,543
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,531 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Agreed! Had I elaborated any more I would have said, against a thread whose ONLY advantage is "youth" - I'll end the fight in seconds. If he is adequatelly trained... that's trouble.
By definition youth isn't going to be the only advantage, given the OP's intent for this thread he's also going to have surprise on his side and it's likely that he'll have experience going for him as well, I haven't been in a real fight in 20 years and even those fights weren't fights where the other guy was trying to permanently damage me.

Youíre also overlooking the fact that the Goblins hunt in packs these days and are usually armed with something they also have a tendency to beat you harder when you go down. A real fight or a real attack if you will isnít a trifling matter if I was attacked at random I would assume the person intended to kill me and would respond in kind.
__________________
Read More Post Less
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:53 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."
I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 02-28-2014, 02:42 PM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
You might want to read a little of why he says what he says before you pronounce him as "wrong".
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #79  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:03 PM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
Sgt. Miller probably doesn't know you either, but I know him.
Maybe you can have a look into what he does.

Perhaps you can set him straight. He's always got time to learn.
For me, I'll stick with my teacher.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:11 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Like I said, unless there's something that hasn't been explained, the statement is wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm sure he is a very good teacher. There's just too much evidence saying that you will do things the way you practice them.

So, if he's saying that no one will use a self defense technique the same way they use it in the studio, then I'd agree with that. However, to say that you won't do what you train/practice would lead me to say, then why train or practice?
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:21 PM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
Basically it's about mental condition to avoid hesitation or freeze.
It happens in combat to trained soldiers, it happens to LEO, even though they are specifically trained to be in dangerous situations.

Experience in real deadly dangerous(not controlled "studio/ dojo/gym) fluid situations are where people who have "been there" are generally less likely to hesitate or to hesitate for shorter periods, before applying what they have been trained to do.
We must analyze our muscle movement prior to execution, of course (shoot/no shoot situation) but "freezing" is a different thing.

The OP was asking as an individual who isn't a LEO, or an active soldier or (assumption here) combat veteran. Too many are lulled into thinking they'll automatically go to a joint lock or perform a block, but when real fear and adrenaline happens, they freeze. They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.

That's all, it's not meant as an indictment of training, by any means. And I'm betting you knew what I was talking about.
Thanks for asking.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #82  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:45 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.
This is one of the greatest difficulties of training for self defense; reality. We don't really want to hurt our training partner. This is why, in my school, all punches/kicks/elbows are real. This is why I say what you do in the school is what you'll do on the street. If you train by missing, you'll miss on the street.

We usually start with learning how to use a block. Then, once a student shows that they can use the block properly, I punch them and they block it. I tell them, "If you don't block it, you will be punched, hard." To date, they have all blocked the punch. Once a student sees that it can work, their confidence goes up dramatically. That allows them to relax a little and then the real training begins.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Last edited by Rastoff; 02-28-2014 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-28-2014, 03:59 PM
kyf's Avatar
kyf kyf is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 271
Likes: 27
Liked 96 Times in 40 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwalker View Post
I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

Regards,
CJ
There are several programs out there specifically aimed at women. Two that come to mind are Fight Like A Cornered Cat & Fight Like A Girl. If personal security is more your goal there is a lot that goes into that type of training beyond the physical aspect.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #84  
Old 02-28-2014, 05:00 PM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,449
Likes: 1,543
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,531 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
And I'm betting you knew what I was talking about.
Had an idea but you articulated it better than I could have
__________________
Read More Post Less
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #85  
Old 02-28-2014, 08:11 PM
Old TexMex's Avatar
Old TexMex Old TexMex is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Texas and Mexico
Posts: 7,045
Likes: 15,702
Liked 12,893 Times in 4,039 Posts
Default affirmation of respect

I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.
__________________
Retreat,hell.We just got here!

Last edited by Old TexMex; 02-28-2014 at 11:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 03-01-2014, 12:58 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washifornia
Posts: 7,231
Likes: 5,722
Liked 8,298 Times in 2,890 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.
And that there is the problem with some martial artists. They ASSUME. I've seen so called martial artists get embarrassed. And I've seen some that I wouldn't confront with a gun.

Like many firearm instructors, there are just as many martial arts instructors that only teach what they know. And they don't know squat.

Above all martial arts is way of life. "Posing" as a martial artist is a good way to get hurt.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #87  
Old 03-01-2014, 03:46 AM
BCDWYO's Avatar
BCDWYO BCDWYO is offline
SWCA Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 1,548
Likes: 2,035
Liked 1,510 Times in 464 Posts
Default

You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #88  
Old 03-01-2014, 04:32 AM
Gyrene6891's Avatar
Gyrene6891 Gyrene6891 is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 411
Likes: 562
Liked 289 Times in 134 Posts
Default

I am 63 years old and have studied Judo, Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo and Aikido. I also suffer from emphysema. The reality is you cannot learn to defend yourself from a book or a dvd alone. You must put the time in practicing. As you practice various tactics visualize an opponent, unless you have a training partner. If you are in aphysical attack you do not have time, normally, to pull a gun. Nor do you have time to pull if someone is rushing you, they will close with you too quickly for you to pull. If all else fails go to your back with your feet toward the opponent, assuming only one, This position is very defensible and it will allow you to pull your weapon. Random thoughts from one of the old guys...
__________________
Retired Marine Gunny
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #89  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:40 AM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,449
Likes: 1,543
Liked 3,774 Times in 1,531 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDWYO View Post
I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
You think you're kidding but there are self defense classes that focus on seniors defending themselves with canes and such.
__________________
Read More Post Less
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #90  
Old 03-01-2014, 11:01 AM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Washifornia
Posts: 7,231
Likes: 5,722
Liked 8,298 Times in 2,890 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDWYO View Post
You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
You are correct. No matter how hard we try we cannot prepare for everything. But we can elevate our situational awareness. We can be flexible so that we can at least react in a manner that allows us to protect ourselves. If we appear as sheep then we will be treated as such. How we carry ourselves, the look on our face, our body language is important. If we appear weak and defeated then we will become victims.

The only sure way to react appropriately each and every time is to get quality training and practice. This doesn't mean that you need to become a black belt. And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation. And many instructors can't or don't instruct people how to incorporate the use of a firearm in their self defense training. So such training may be hard to find.

Instructors such as Mike Janich, Kelly McCann, Masaad Ayoob, Dave Spaulding and several others are the premier instructors in close quarters combat with or without a gun and or knife. But such training can be expensive.

Thinking ahead can help too. When you approach a door, a building, round a corner, walk to your car etc...... Think ahead. What would I do if a bad guy step out? Is my gun hand free? Can I hit him with whatever I may be carrying? Can I position the grocery cart between him and me?

This is what I call "flexible thinking". Instead of "what if" scenarios and trying to prepare for everything, be flexible and think flexible. Consider your surroundings and prepare yourself. Hope that makes sense.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #91  
Old 03-01-2014, 05:07 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCDWYO View Post
But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING.
This is the fundamental truth of self-defense. No situation you find yourself in on the street will be exactly what you train in the school. So, put as many tools in your bag as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation.
This is also true. The blame for this lies squarely on the shoulders of greedy instructors.

Like it or not, the modern day colored belt system was developed to make money.

At first, students in Japan lived at the school. Because of the nature of the training, they were poor and had only one set of clothes or uniform. It had a simple belt to hold it all together. The uniform was white. The symbology is that white represents emptyness. As the student worked, they never washed their belt so, it got dirtier and dirtier. The dirtier it got coincided with more experience in the school. Ultimately, with enough time, it would turn black. Of course nothing ever turns really black. More on that later.

Enter the marital arts in the US. In order to distinguish more experienced students from new students, the brown belt was introduced. So, a student would start with white, representing emptyness or lack of knowledge. Then they would get 3rd Brown, then 2nd Brown then 1st Brown, then Black.

As time passed, instructors realized that they could charge more money for each belt test. The color system was born. Schools introduced requirements for each belt color and there was a monetary value that went with it. So, students were pushed to test because it meant more money to the school. Some schools have "upgrades" within each belt color. I know one school that has 5 upgrades for each belt and ten belts.

The way it should work is each belt level represents a certain amount of knowledge, but not necessarily skill. A lower ranking individual may be better at certain things. The higher ranking student may lack a certain ability, but had attained the knowledge commensurate with that level.

In my school there are six belts; Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Brown and Black. White isn't a rank because everyone is a white belt. We say, "Attaining the level of Black belt doesn't mean you've mastered anything. You've simply earned the right to begin to learn."

Based on the old way, the dirty belt starts to become thread bare and the dirt starts to flake away exposing new patches of white. This represents the fact that we are always learning. Even the most seasoned master still has patches of emptyness. The more we know, the more we know we don't know.

My greatest fear as an instructor is that I'll send a student out into the world thinking he can defend himself when in fact he cannot. So, I work hard to avoid that. I strive to teach quality movements, but more than that, quality thought processes.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #92  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:02 PM
sq hunter sq hunter is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: pennsylvania
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times in 21 Posts
Default

I'm 50 yrs old. I train 5 days aweek . some boxing for stamina .5 katas, escrima drills & some roman -Greco techniques. I also have fought in the ring -In dojos & many bar & street fights. I also do ollympic Lifts.
What I find is most people can't believe this is happening to them?
My experience shows me to react quickly & be willing .I used to drive dancers to various clubs & pickthem up. In Pa ,NY& NJ. so I have had to fight & also talk my way out of things. With this knockout game I am very aware of my surrondings.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 03-02-2014, 06:22 AM
Gyrene6891's Avatar
Gyrene6891 Gyrene6891 is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 411
Likes: 562
Liked 289 Times in 134 Posts
Default

Not quite Rastoff,
Around 1930 the Kodokan created a new belt to recognize the special achievements of high ranking black belts. Jigoro Kano chose to recognize sixth, seventh, and eighth degree black belts with a special obi made of alternating red and white panels (kohaku obi). The white color was chosen for purity, and red for the intense desire to train and the sacrifices made. The colors red and white are an enduring symbol of Japan, and they have been used in Judo since Jigoro Kano started the first Red and White Tournament in 1884. The kohaku obi is often worn for special occasions, but it is not required to be worn at any time and the black belt remains the standard for all the yudansha ranks. In 1943 the Kodokan created the optional red belt to recognize 9th and 10th degree yudansha.
Other colored belts for students who had not yet achieved black belt originated later, when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives. This system included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts.
The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts, such as aikido and karate, which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes.
Promotion requirements for each rank vary according to the sensei and the national organization that you are affiliated with. There is no worldwide standard for each rank, although it is generally accepted that a blackbelt has had many years of practice...
__________________
Retired Marine Gunny
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 03-02-2014, 11:50 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
US Veteran
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 10,583
Likes: 1,519
Liked 9,479 Times in 3,914 Posts
Default

Very nice. I continue to learn.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 03-13-2014, 09:35 PM
Seneca Seneca is offline
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Redford, MI
Posts: 108
Likes: 5
Liked 80 Times in 29 Posts
Default

When I was 20 and the Army had me down in FT. Polk, LA in infantry training, I just couldn't understand all the time spent in hand to hand combat training after they had just handed me this beautiful black M16. I figured as long as I kept it cleaned, maintained, and well fed with .223 I sure as hell didn't need to know how to maim some guy with my hands. And, I was right. Well, 46 years have passed and I still feel the same way. Keep my firearms clean, maintained, well fed, and, oh yes, close by and leave all that kung fu **** to the young guys.
As for Sgt. Miller's theory on training, I agree. Murphy's Law of Combat: The OP PLAN goes out the window the second the first round goes whizzing by.
Very good discussion on this topic, though. Good information provided by all.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #96  
Old 03-16-2014, 08:45 AM
federali's Avatar
federali federali is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,932
Likes: 8,350
Liked 4,130 Times in 1,220 Posts
Default Rock Of Aging

I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:35 AM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,304
Likes: 1,559
Liked 2,365 Times in 983 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.
With all due respect, there is a huge difference between going to a fitness club... and training in hand to hand combat. An untrained baby boomer confronted with a young attacker is in serious jeopardy. But a untrained young attacker against a boomer - properly trained, SHOULD regret his choice of victim.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #98  
Old 03-16-2014, 05:00 PM
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Big Orange Country
Posts: 546
Likes: 325
Liked 381 Times in 183 Posts
Default

I'm 45
6'2"
248 lbs
Work out (strength)
Run stairs for stamina
Wife wants a punching bag to improve stamina, aim, coordination, etc

I am called "big" by friends and family but when I go places, my heads on a swivel as if I was a 98 lb kid.

I watch everything and am very cognizant of my surroundings

Don't know how I would handle a fight........don't want to know, have a good friend who has trained in hand to hand. I would like to learn his routine, technique. I love to learn and really admire those who traing to protect themselves.

Just want to live in peace

Hope I never have to prove my fighting or shooting skills in a real life situation.

Just try to be prepared in case I do by staying strong, healthy and able to handle my firearm.

SD
__________________
Wake me when it's over...

Last edited by Steely Dan; 03-16-2014 at 05:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #99  
Old 03-17-2014, 05:54 PM
Sayoc01 Sayoc01 is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 368
Likes: 1
Liked 399 Times in 166 Posts
Default

I'm 70 & took knife classes with Bram Frank....became one of his instructors! His invention is a knife called the "Gunting"....it's a folder....with a ramp.....you have a choice in wheather you want to cut or just cause pain!I'm retired....sometimes I am unable to carry my gun ...but I always have a Gunting.A number of Leos now carry them!
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 03-17-2014, 06:16 PM
sac-gunslinger sac-gunslinger is offline
Member
Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand? Do you train for hand-to-hand?  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rancho Cordova, CA
Posts: 1,009
Likes: 1,062
Liked 756 Times in 401 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Can't run and couldn't survive a physical fight in one piece. Fortunately I live in a castle doctrine, stand-your-ground state.
Shoulda, I am in the same boat you are. I used to be able to grapple with the best of'em, but not any more.

I lived in Hopkinsville for a while, Kentucky laws sure sound better than what we've got here in the People's Republik.
__________________
"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Left hand, hand tooled holster for Colt Dective Special/Cobra gregintenn Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 3 05-06-2012 01:59 PM
On which side do you mount a light? Strong hand or weak hand? JaPes Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 3 02-28-2012 09:08 AM
Sourcing a hand for a 1905 32-20 hand ejector muskrat man S&W-Smithing 13 07-11-2011 03:39 PM
is a hand a hand (586 carry up issue revisited) SW CQB 45 S&W-Smithing 13 07-31-2010 11:56 PM
Late 40s M&P Hand, Hand Lever, & Spring wamalo S&W-Smithing 0 05-03-2010 05:30 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:54 PM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)