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  #51  
Old 02-27-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BCDWYO View Post
Wearing my Like button out. Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and advice. This is just what I was looking for.
It's a good topic. Thanks for bringing it up. The beauty of defending myself with a handgun is I love shooting, so I go to the range regularly and practice. I don't have to force myself to do what I love to do. Shooting is what I do for pleasure.

A gun has the potential to protect someone who can't protect themselves hand to hand. However, I LOVED Aikido, and if you have the interest and the drive, martial arts are great and can be very useful, even as you get older. When I was younger, I took a train for a half hour each direction eight times a week for the classes. Without the interest or ability to keep up the practice, it's easy for your hand to hand skills to fail you when you need them. It's easy for your shooting skills to as well. They both require a lot of effort and dedication, but for an older person or someone with a physical issue, I think your chances are a whole lot better with the gun. I no longer have the drive to reacquire martial arts skills and keep them tuned up. I wish I did. It can be a lot of fun!
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:37 PM
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Why do you carry a firearm? It's for your protection in a deadly force situation. Right? So the only time you're going to protect yourself is when you're in a deadly force situation? It doesn't matter if your 17 or 77 you're more likely to have to protect yourself from a non-deadly force threat than a deadly force encounter. And if anyone thinks they can talk their way out of every physical confrontation then they're just setting themselves up for ending up on the short end.
One of my defensive tactics instructors had a saying. "When the only tool in your tool box is a hammer then every problem becomes a nail."
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:45 PM
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I am in a similar situation as Smoke,
49, and I earned a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do 5 years ago. I do 4 miles on my elliptical every day and work out on a Bowflex every other. I can bench the stack (210lbs) 20 times no problem.

I have no delusions about fighting a 20 something year old. If necessary I could maybe fight my way out of a corner if I was lucky, and retrieve my weapon.

Becoming a Black Belt taught me there's a lot of fighting to do and a lot of ways to lose said fights. I know some good moves, but in reality I believe you should consistently know a couple effective procedures and practice the snot out of them.

Most effective: Smooth draw and excellent aim.

.
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  #54  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:28 PM
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There are three types of martial arts schools; historical or traditional, sport and self-defense. Every school contains aspects of all three, but every school focuses on one.

Historical/Traditional
This school is focused on doing things exactly the way master X did it 2,000 years ago. The moves, stances and strikes must be perfect and there is only one way to do a particular technique or move. These schools often avoid any improvements or modifications to old techniques. Effective, but rigid.

Sport
My sister holds a 3rd degree black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do and her school fits this description. They have many "forms" that must be memorized to achieve rank advancement. Their sparring is focused toward scoring points more than doing damage. They host and travel to competitions where excellence in forms or sparring for points is the focus. They require pads when sparring, but no one wears a cup. The groin is an illegal target and they never use it. These schools are super popular and out number all other schools at least 10 to 1.

Self-Defense
This style of school spends most of their time on damage to the attacker. They work hard on the "combat mindset" and being aware. Chuck Sullivan, mentioned earlier, used to bring old couches and bar stools into his school and have the students spar in street clothes. He figured if you're gonna learn to defend yourself, you might as well practice it in an environment that you're likely to be in. Techniques are taught, but only to learn the movements. The idea is to use whatever is necessary for the situation that presents itself. Precision is not the goal, effectiveness is. These types of schools are not popular. Invariably they include some pain in the instruction because they seek to be as real as possible. Being hurt is different from being injured. Hurt means you feel some pain, you walk it off and get back to work. Injured means you're bleeding or need medical attention. A true self-defense school will include some pain, it's the nature of the business, but they work hard not to injure any student. This is why they are not popular and only 20% of the students stick with it long enough to earn a black belt.


Please don't take the previous as an attack on different schools, it's not. Anyone who devotes themselves to a course of instruction in any martial art will be able to effectively use it to defend themselves. I'm just pointing out that there are differences. Let's face it, all empty hand martial arts were developed to defend against tyrannical governments that outlawed fighting implements. This is why I say, I am the weapon. Anything I'm holding is just a tool.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:58 PM
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I understand what you are saying. I was trained hand to hand many moons ago. I was thrown 15ft into the air by a car and landed on my face and hands. 80% of my body is broken. Much more than my body was broken.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:07 PM
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Ok, great. Just don't flip this scene. If the rolls were reversed no one would have heard of that law. And no one has...till now.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:12 PM
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Anyone who devotes themselves to a course of instruction in any martial art will be able to effectively use it to defend themselves.
Well, I wouldn't go that far Rastoff. There are many recorded instances of people, well trained in a martial art, that were sadly disappointed when their skills were put to the test on the street.

I think you would really be glad if you read Rory Millers Book-Meditations on violence.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:48 PM
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Well, I wouldn't go that far Rastoff. There are many recorded instances of people, well trained in a martial art, that were sadly disappointed when their skills were put to the test on the street.
This is true, but my point was not that you'll prevail on the street, just that I don't consider one school/style definitively better than another.

Even so, note that I said someone who devotes themselves to it. Most are just filling a gap in their lives and aren't really devoted to the art. A devoted student in anything will excel at it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:50 PM
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When your young, tough and fit, one can afford to take chances on the outcome of a physical scuffle, or wrestling match. Old men who have wrestling matches with a young fit attacker are
more likely to have their gun taken away from them and used on them. So if I am attacked physically and I am carrying my
guns, it is a life or death situation since I don't want my guns
used on me. Some predators prey on the old and the disabled.
and the wolves usually attack old deer, as well as young calves
that they perceive as easy prey. So if one does everything one can do to avoid the fight and they still want a wrestling match or a scuffle, yes, I will go for my guns as I will not be a willing
victim.
Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even one punch is too much. I intend to put a stop to the festivities BEFORE I get punched.

If they ignore verbal commands then they will be looking down the barrel of my gun.

Like I said before, it really isn't that difficult.
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:24 PM
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Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even one punch is too much. I intend to put a stop to the festivities BEFORE I get punched.

If they ignore verbal commands then they will be looking down the barrel of my gun.

Like I said before, it really isn't that difficult.
This is absolutely the right thinking. The problem is that you don't always have the ability to avoid physical altercations. The guy could rush you or sneak up from behind. Situational awareness is great, but you can't be aware of everything all the time. This is why we should all get at least a little empty hand training.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 AM
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This is absolutely the right thinking. The problem is that you don't always have the ability to avoid physical altercations. The guy could rush you or sneak up from behind. Situational awareness is great, but you can't be aware of everything all the time. This is why we should all get at least a little empty hand training.
This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.

But bear in mind, the most dangerous prison gang in the U.S. doesn't require its members to practice martial art, they study anatomy.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:34 AM
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This is confusing. But I think I see what you're saying.
What's confusing about it? I will try to explain or put it in a different way if you can tell me what confused you.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:43 AM
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A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:00 AM
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A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.
OK, I see it now.

Yes, I agree that situational awareness is the way to go. As we've talked about, avoidance is key.

The point I was getting at is that you cannot be aware of everything all the time. Sure, if someone sneaks up behind you and stabs you, no amount of training will help that. But, if someone grabs you, that is something you can defend against.
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:28 AM
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Jeeze. My dad who spent 22 years on the job, said to me, "Pepper spray, baby, carry it, spray it in that sombitches eyes, kick, claw, punch, do whatever to get away, grab a chair if it's handy and pin that sombitch against the wall and kick him hard.

*sighs* Ain't that hard. A little spray can does wonders.

No, I don't train hand-to-hand. I train "kick, scratch, bite, claw, scream "FIRE FIRE FIRE YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!"

Brings out the spectators.
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:38 AM
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A little open hand training will help me when I blindly walk into an ambush and two guys shove a shiv into my ribs?
I'd think situational awareness trumps anything outside the dojo.

Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.

There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.

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Old 02-28-2014, 09:23 AM
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Two observations -

- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.

- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.


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Old 02-28-2014, 09:36 AM
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I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

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Old 02-28-2014, 09:41 AM
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Personally, I think some are placing too much confidence in their ability to see every possible threat because they are so "situationally aware". Even the best are sometimes distracted and find themselves in an undesirable spot.

There is a gentleman in california who owns a company that trains security people (executive protection types - not Walmart Security) & trains martial arts TEACHERS in tactics. Needless to say, he holds black belts in 5 or 6 arts and is a firearms instructor.
One day, while at an ATM, he found himself facing three thugs (one armed with a baton) who wanted to rob him. By the time the police arrived all three were on the deck, writhing in pain with no "visible" injuries. It took the police a few second to realize that HE was the victim.
The point being that if your plan is to use your "situational awareness" to avoid all threats - you need a new plan!
I'm not saying you have to become like my friend, but everyone should know a technique or two for close quarter encounters. You may need it in order to even get to your gun.
No doubt. I'm glad I never said that situational awareness alone will keep you safe. I've never met anyone who thought they were, either.
A combination of everything you know and being able to stay teachable (61 and still going to new exercises in defense and executive protection), physical mobility/flexibility
will certainly come with martial art training, yoga-- but since this is a Smith&Wesson forum, a fair percentage of the members are handgunners. So avoiding having to use it in defense is important. (Situational awareness)
Being able to reach it in close quarters is important. (Physical fitness&mobility)
Being able to stop a threat by using it is important.(hitting the target)

Like I said in my first contribution to this thread: "It can't hurt."

But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."

Anyone who attends his classes or exercises directed by him will understand what he means.

I also carry garlic to repel vampires.(down on the border, you can't be too careful, ya know)
Stay safe out there and be lucky.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:30 AM
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I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

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Old 02-28-2014, 10:51 AM
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Two observations -

- I've seen the aftermath of hundreds of hand to hand encounters. Not one of them was a "Let's trade punches like gentlemen till one of us cries uncle". It's been no holds barred, no rules, kick him in the goodies, claw his eyes out, try and kill him. In some cases the "kill him" part was a success.

- Bad guys train more than any cop, more than any martial arts devotee, more than anybody. AND bad guys are not encumbered by a legal/ethical constraint. They don't have to worry about using excessive force, who initiates what, stand your ground or anything else. They are driven simply by the desire and need to overwhelm, incapacitate and prevail. They don't care how much you're injured or if you survive. It's probably simpler for them if you DON'T survive.


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I get your point, but doubt that you've never seen two guys fight over whatever and neither intending to kill. Happens in bars and frat party parking lots all the time. Weddings, funerals and bar mitzvahs. Monkey fights, beatdowns by gangs on gang members and drunk tank brawls.
Interesting that a lot of the participants in these things were lightly trained in some dojo, or watched a lot of MMA on TV.
...but I guess that isn't what the OP is asking about.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:53 AM
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One of those young guys here. I took a multi-disciplinary marshal arts class last summer through a friend who is an instructor in JKD and studies several other martial arts. We showed up wearing our street clothes and conducted everything as we would normally (ie we wore our guns, just unloaded them). We ran multiple scenarios, and it was essentially full go until someone was "dead". I can tell you, I never had time to just step back and draw. I always had to trap atleast one limb before I could get to my side arm and often as not I used a knife instead. I highly recommend hand to hand training for anyone who carries. Always remember the Tuller Drill. If they're inside 21 feet, they can get to you before you can get to your gun.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:12 AM
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Even if it was just one????
Yes, even if it was just one. Taking on multiple bad guys only happens in the movies, where they come at you one at a time, and you can re-take the scene till you get it just right. One guy half my age has something all the training in the world won't supply, stamina from fewer birthdays. That, and your comment pre-supposes the younger guy doesn't have any training. Bottom line? If I'm on the spot, I'd better end it in less than 30 seconds. Any longer and I'm outta gas. As the popular saying goes, "I carry because I'm too young to die and too old to take a butt whipping."
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:30 AM
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Yes, even if it was just one. Taking on multiple bad guys only happens in the movies, where they come at you one at a time, and you can re-take the scene till you get it just right. One guy half my age has something all the training in the world won't supply, stamina from fewer birthdays. That, and your comment pre-supposes the younger guy doesn't have any training. Bottom line? If I'm on the spot, I'd better end it in less than 30 seconds. Any longer and I'm outta gas. As the popular saying goes, "I carry because I'm too young to die and too old to take a butt whipping."
Agreed! Had I elaborated any more I would have said, against a threat whose ONLY advantage is "youth" - I'll end the fight in seconds. If he is adequatelly trained... that's trouble.

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Old 02-28-2014, 01:22 PM
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But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."
I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:32 PM
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Agreed! Had I elaborated any more I would have said, against a thread whose ONLY advantage is "youth" - I'll end the fight in seconds. If he is adequatelly trained... that's trouble.
By definition youth isn't going to be the only advantage, given the OP's intent for this thread he's also going to have surprise on his side and it's likely that he'll have experience going for him as well, I haven't been in a real fight in 20 years and even those fights weren't fights where the other guy was trying to permanently damage me.

You’re also overlooking the fact that the Goblins hunt in packs these days and are usually armed with something they also have a tendency to beat you harder when you go down. A real fight or a real attack if you will isn’t a trifling matter if I was attacked at random I would assume the person intended to kill me and would respond in kind.
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:53 PM
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But since I've seen him mentioned in previous posts, I'll quote Rory Miller: " the idea that you will fight like you train is B.S."
I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
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Old 02-28-2014, 02:42 PM
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I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
You might want to read a little of why he says what he says before you pronounce him as "wrong".
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:03 PM
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I don't know who Rory Miller is, but he is wrong on this point unless there's some aspect not being explained. Allow me to give an example:

I've learned, and teach, a gun take away technique. The police instructor who taught me, told us this story. One day an off duty cop was in a convenient store when an armed robber came in. The cop used this technique to take the gun away, THEN HANDED IT BACK TO THE BAD GUY. Yep, he did exactly what he did in training. You see, as they practiced, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back so they could do it again. So, he did exactly that in real life. The cop managed to get it away from the bad guy again (effective technique), but got shot the second time. He lived.

The point is, whatever you practice at home, in the studio or at the range, is what you will do on the street. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to ingrain the motions so they will be automatic; not the technique, the motion. Whether it's an escape, a knee to the groin, a punch to the throat or whatever move, it's important to train and practice it correctly.

Again, I don't know Mr. Miller, but you will react the same way you practice.
Sgt. Miller probably doesn't know you either, but I know him.
Maybe you can have a look into what he does.

Perhaps you can set him straight. He's always got time to learn.
For me, I'll stick with my teacher.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:11 PM
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Like I said, unless there's something that hasn't been explained, the statement is wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm sure he is a very good teacher. There's just too much evidence saying that you will do things the way you practice them.

So, if he's saying that no one will use a self defense technique the same way they use it in the studio, then I'd agree with that. However, to say that you won't do what you train/practice would lead me to say, then why train or practice?
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:21 PM
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I think I know what you are driving at but would you care to elaborate?
Basically it's about mental condition to avoid hesitation or freeze.
It happens in combat to trained soldiers, it happens to LEO, even though they are specifically trained to be in dangerous situations.

Experience in real deadly dangerous(not controlled "studio/ dojo/gym) fluid situations are where people who have "been there" are generally less likely to hesitate or to hesitate for shorter periods, before applying what they have been trained to do.
We must analyze our muscle movement prior to execution, of course (shoot/no shoot situation) but "freezing" is a different thing.

The OP was asking as an individual who isn't a LEO, or an active soldier or (assumption here) combat veteran. Too many are lulled into thinking they'll automatically go to a joint lock or perform a block, but when real fear and adrenaline happens, they freeze. They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.

That's all, it's not meant as an indictment of training, by any means. And I'm betting you knew what I was talking about.
Thanks for asking.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:45 PM
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They were trained to pull their punch, they were trained to "not really" gouge an eye, because "we" just don't behave like that.
This is one of the greatest difficulties of training for self defense; reality. We don't really want to hurt our training partner. This is why, in my school, all punches/kicks/elbows are real. This is why I say what you do in the school is what you'll do on the street. If you train by missing, you'll miss on the street.

We usually start with learning how to use a block. Then, once a student shows that they can use the block properly, I punch them and they block it. I tell them, "If you don't block it, you will be punched, hard." To date, they have all blocked the punch. Once a student sees that it can work, their confidence goes up dramatically. That allows them to relax a little and then the real training begins.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:59 PM
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I'm more interested in making a profession of Personal Security for younglings and high-profile wives (me being a big ol' tall white woman, nobody would suspect me of having the training.) Reaching for my conceal-carry would be the last resort (as I was trained to do.) I'm more interested in classes that would enable me to better protect my charge. Any tips or suggestions where I might find that sort of training?

Regards,
CJ
There are several programs out there specifically aimed at women. Two that come to mind are Fight Like A Cornered Cat & Fight Like A Girl. If personal security is more your goal there is a lot that goes into that type of training beyond the physical aspect.
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:00 PM
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And I'm betting you knew what I was talking about.
Had an idea but you articulated it better than I could have
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:11 PM
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I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:58 AM
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I have the utmost respect for martial artists, and if my posts sound less than so, I apologize.
I'd say I got off on type or standards of training and generalized.

My fault.

I would be hypocritical to say I do not owe my survival to some very simple but very effective training by a former Marine/ retired L.A.P.D. detective who lives in Mexico. It's a very good place to get real life training. Being disarmed there for my first year ('09) I noticed adrenaline production was greater when I was not carrying.....

And for the posers....good luck.
And that there is the problem with some martial artists. They ASSUME. I've seen so called martial artists get embarrassed. And I've seen some that I wouldn't confront with a gun.

Like many firearm instructors, there are just as many martial arts instructors that only teach what they know. And they don't know squat.

Above all martial arts is way of life. "Posing" as a martial artist is a good way to get hurt.
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Old 03-01-2014, 03:46 AM
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You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:32 AM
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I am 63 years old and have studied Judo, Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo and Aikido. I also suffer from emphysema. The reality is you cannot learn to defend yourself from a book or a dvd alone. You must put the time in practicing. As you practice various tactics visualize an opponent, unless you have a training partner. If you are in aphysical attack you do not have time, normally, to pull a gun. Nor do you have time to pull if someone is rushing you, they will close with you too quickly for you to pull. If all else fails go to your back with your feet toward the opponent, assuming only one, This position is very defensible and it will allow you to pull your weapon. Random thoughts from one of the old guys...
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:40 AM
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I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
You think you're kidding but there are self defense classes that focus on seniors defending themselves with canes and such.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:01 AM
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You guys are all hitting all around my OP questions. I'd say we'd all agree it can't hurt to get some self defense training besides with your gun (and in fact this has motivated me to look into some locally...hope I choose a good instructor!) But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING. Situational awareness and avoidance is the first step, but it cannot be relied upon exclusively or we would not need to carry or train at all.

Despite what we may all say on internet forums or with buddies, the reality is it is very hard for anyone, especially those of us with no real world training or experience with violence (ie not LEO or military) to know exactly how we will respond when that switch is flipped and we are suddenly and unexectedly called upon to respond violently.

I'm all for having as many tools at my disposal as possible.

I guess one of these days I'll be looking for a course entitled "Defending Yourself with your Walker".
You are correct. No matter how hard we try we cannot prepare for everything. But we can elevate our situational awareness. We can be flexible so that we can at least react in a manner that allows us to protect ourselves. If we appear as sheep then we will be treated as such. How we carry ourselves, the look on our face, our body language is important. If we appear weak and defeated then we will become victims.

The only sure way to react appropriately each and every time is to get quality training and practice. This doesn't mean that you need to become a black belt. And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation. And many instructors can't or don't instruct people how to incorporate the use of a firearm in their self defense training. So such training may be hard to find.

Instructors such as Mike Janich, Kelly McCann, Masaad Ayoob, Dave Spaulding and several others are the premier instructors in close quarters combat with or without a gun and or knife. But such training can be expensive.

Thinking ahead can help too. When you approach a door, a building, round a corner, walk to your car etc...... Think ahead. What would I do if a bad guy step out? Is my gun hand free? Can I hit him with whatever I may be carrying? Can I position the grocery cart between him and me?

This is what I call "flexible thinking". Instead of "what if" scenarios and trying to prepare for everything, be flexible and think flexible. Consider your surroundings and prepare yourself. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:07 PM
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But the bottom line is always that you cannot prepare for EVERYTHING.
This is the fundamental truth of self-defense. No situation you find yourself in on the street will be exactly what you train in the school. So, put as many tools in your bag as possible.

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And in my experience belts are awarded to soon causing people to think they can handle any situation.
This is also true. The blame for this lies squarely on the shoulders of greedy instructors.

Like it or not, the modern day colored belt system was developed to make money.

At first, students in Japan lived at the school. Because of the nature of the training, they were poor and had only one set of clothes or uniform. It had a simple belt to hold it all together. The uniform was white. The symbology is that white represents emptyness. As the student worked, they never washed their belt so, it got dirtier and dirtier. The dirtier it got coincided with more experience in the school. Ultimately, with enough time, it would turn black. Of course nothing ever turns really black. More on that later.

Enter the marital arts in the US. In order to distinguish more experienced students from new students, the brown belt was introduced. So, a student would start with white, representing emptyness or lack of knowledge. Then they would get 3rd Brown, then 2nd Brown then 1st Brown, then Black.

As time passed, instructors realized that they could charge more money for each belt test. The color system was born. Schools introduced requirements for each belt color and there was a monetary value that went with it. So, students were pushed to test because it meant more money to the school. Some schools have "upgrades" within each belt color. I know one school that has 5 upgrades for each belt and ten belts.

The way it should work is each belt level represents a certain amount of knowledge, but not necessarily skill. A lower ranking individual may be better at certain things. The higher ranking student may lack a certain ability, but had attained the knowledge commensurate with that level.

In my school there are six belts; Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, Brown and Black. White isn't a rank because everyone is a white belt. We say, "Attaining the level of Black belt doesn't mean you've mastered anything. You've simply earned the right to begin to learn."

Based on the old way, the dirty belt starts to become thread bare and the dirt starts to flake away exposing new patches of white. This represents the fact that we are always learning. Even the most seasoned master still has patches of emptyness. The more we know, the more we know we don't know.

My greatest fear as an instructor is that I'll send a student out into the world thinking he can defend himself when in fact he cannot. So, I work hard to avoid that. I strive to teach quality movements, but more than that, quality thought processes.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:02 PM
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I'm 50 yrs old. I train 5 days aweek . some boxing for stamina .5 katas, escrima drills & some roman -Greco techniques. I also have fought in the ring -In dojos & many bar & street fights. I also do ollympic Lifts.
What I find is most people can't believe this is happening to them?
My experience shows me to react quickly & be willing .I used to drive dancers to various clubs & pickthem up. In Pa ,NY& NJ. so I have had to fight & also talk my way out of things. With this knockout game I am very aware of my surrondings.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:22 AM
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Not quite Rastoff,
Around 1930 the Kodokan created a new belt to recognize the special achievements of high ranking black belts. Jigoro Kano chose to recognize sixth, seventh, and eighth degree black belts with a special obi made of alternating red and white panels (kohaku obi). The white color was chosen for purity, and red for the intense desire to train and the sacrifices made. The colors red and white are an enduring symbol of Japan, and they have been used in Judo since Jigoro Kano started the first Red and White Tournament in 1884. The kohaku obi is often worn for special occasions, but it is not required to be worn at any time and the black belt remains the standard for all the yudansha ranks. In 1943 the Kodokan created the optional red belt to recognize 9th and 10th degree yudansha.
Other colored belts for students who had not yet achieved black belt originated later, when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the first to introduce various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach Judo in Paris. He felt that western students would show greater progress if they had a visible system of many colored belts recognizing achievement and providing regular incentives. This system included white, yellow, orange, green, blue, and purple belts before the traditional brown and black belts.
The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts, such as aikido and karate, which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes.
Promotion requirements for each rank vary according to the sensei and the national organization that you are affiliated with. There is no worldwide standard for each rank, although it is generally accepted that a blackbelt has had many years of practice...
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:50 PM
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Very nice. I continue to learn.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:35 PM
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When I was 20 and the Army had me down in FT. Polk, LA in infantry training, I just couldn't understand all the time spent in hand to hand combat training after they had just handed me this beautiful black M16. I figured as long as I kept it cleaned, maintained, and well fed with .223 I sure as hell didn't need to know how to maim some guy with my hands. And, I was right. Well, 46 years have passed and I still feel the same way. Keep my firearms clean, maintained, well fed, and, oh yes, close by and leave all that kung fu **** to the young guys.
As for Sgt. Miller's theory on training, I agree. Murphy's Law of Combat: The OP PLAN goes out the window the second the first round goes whizzing by.
Very good discussion on this topic, though. Good information provided by all.
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Old 03-16-2014, 08:45 AM
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I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.
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Old 03-16-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
I'm 69 and I go to a fitness club to maintain whatever's left of my youth. There, I get to see guys half my age and seriously bulked up, working out. I think to myself that there's no way I could take one of these guys on and expect to win. As others have said, I too have a knee replacement and a bad back, together with everything else afflicting us seniors.

Yes, disparity of force, age, size, numbers, and sex, alone or in combination, can provide justification for deadly force. However, if you live in a blue state, it's probably better to allow yourself to be beaten until your own mother can't tell if you're face up or down in the hospital bed, before drawing and firing.
With all due respect, there is a huge difference between going to a fitness club... and training in hand to hand combat. An untrained baby boomer confronted with a young attacker is in serious jeopardy. But a untrained young attacker against a boomer - properly trained, SHOULD regret his choice of victim.
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Old 03-16-2014, 05:00 PM
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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I'm 45
6'2"
248 lbs
Work out (strength)
Run stairs for stamina
Wife wants a punching bag to improve stamina, aim, coordination, etc

I am called "big" by friends and family but when I go places, my heads on a swivel as if I was a 98 lb kid.

I watch everything and am very cognizant of my surroundings

Don't know how I would handle a fight........don't want to know, have a good friend who has trained in hand to hand. I would like to learn his routine, technique. I love to learn and really admire those who traing to protect themselves.

Just want to live in peace

Hope I never have to prove my fighting or shooting skills in a real life situation.

Just try to be prepared in case I do by staying strong, healthy and able to handle my firearm.

SD
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:54 PM
Sayoc01 Sayoc01 is offline
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I'm 70 & took knife classes with Bram Frank....became one of his instructors! His invention is a knife called the "Gunting"....it's a folder....with a ramp.....you have a choice in wheather you want to cut or just cause pain!I'm retired....sometimes I am unable to carry my gun ...but I always have a Gunting.A number of Leos now carry them!
Jim
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:16 PM
sac-gunslinger sac-gunslinger is offline
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Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Can't run and couldn't survive a physical fight in one piece. Fortunately I live in a castle doctrine, stand-your-ground state.
Shoulda, I am in the same boat you are. I used to be able to grapple with the best of'em, but not any more.

I lived in Hopkinsville for a while, Kentucky laws sure sound better than what we've got here in the People's Republik.
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