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Old 02-26-2014, 01:45 AM
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Default Do you train for hand-to-hand?

I guess that I would like to direct this question primarily to the older guys like me that routinely carry. I'll define "older" as over 55. Younger guys can feel free to chime in too especially if you have specific knowledge or experience in self defense training (you there Rastoff?)

Everything I've ever read says that you are much more likely to be involved in a close quarters physical altercation than a gun fight, which makes sense. It also makes sense that you can't just shoot unarmed assailants and not expect serious consequences. We are generally urged to train for this sort of combat if we undertake the responsibility of carrying a firearm. As I've aged a bit and developed typical aging changes (mild back issues, some shoulder issues, maybe heart, etc) I simply am unable to realistically train in Ju Jitsu, Krav Maga, or similar disciplines the way I maybe could have in the past. And I realize it will only get worse in the coming years. I can still effectively train with a firearm however. We all carry to defend ourselves and to be prepared, but my concern is I feel a nagging sense of being ill-prepared in this area. I stay in reasonably good shape and intend to continue to; maybe I could hold my own against some younger guys, but the effects of aging can't be stopped, and my fist-fighting days are dwindling fast! Obviously the biggest advantage of aging is wisdom and patience...ie being smart enough to avoid fist fights, but some unarmed attacks may not be avoidable.

So the question for some of you fellow mature guys is do you train for physical altercations, and if so how? Any recommendations? General thoughts on the subject?
Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:42 AM
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I'll be 55 in May, so I guess I am one of the "old guys". One thing I learned after 30 years on the job - Avoid it if you can. If you have to fight someone, fight dirty, fight to win. Standing there are trading punches with someone who is younger, faster, and has more endurance then you is a fools game.

Frankly, if I am armed, and in a situation I cant walk away from, and I think someone has a reasonable chance of jumping me and winning, I am going to draw my weapon beforehand. I am not going to risk being disarmed, and my weapon being used on me or some other innocent person.

Larry
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:53 AM
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:50 AM
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All I can say..........if it's going to go......start with the finish









Avoid if AT ALL possible............very dangerous
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:13 AM
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I am 67 myself. The only kind of physical fight I will have at this age will
be a gunfight. As for an assailant being unarmed, we do not have to suffer knockouts,
be mugged, be attacked by young thugs, before we draw, in order to use deadly force
in Texas. I won't start a confrontation but if I cannot retreat for one or avoid it. Many
folks have been beaten to death by young thugs who are unarmed. I do not intend to
be a victim just because a thug is unarmed, and I am old. I had such training in the Marine Corps
but at my age, I will rely upon my handguns, and avoid places where I am compelled to go unarmed.

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Old 02-26-2014, 07:00 AM
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Forgive me, I am neither 55 nor male. But I am considered older by many. I am disabled due to a severe car accident. I am left with an artifical hip and a broken body. I am to old to run and to broken to fight. I bought my gun because for a while disabled people were being targeted in their homes, beaten and robbed. They tried my friend next door to me. That was close enough for me. I dont know what the law says here in Pa. But I am not going to wait and tussle with someone who breaks in my home all because he is unarmed. I am shooting first.
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:23 AM
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I am over 60 and have trained in two martial arts but as you know your skills decline as you get older. One thing I can do is a proper chock if I get an opening. Also pretty good with arm locks. I was brought in a rough area and even though I am not very big I will give it my all before drawing. So many legal issues with drawing.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:17 AM
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I recall hearing Massad Ayoob say that in the case of an older victim being attacked by a younger, fitter/faster assailant, the "disparity of force" of the situation gives the victim the right to use lethal force - even if the assailant is unarmed. This also applies to women being attacked by men, or a victim being attacked by multiple assailants.

You prepare physically, the best you can based on your health and abilities, but by all means protect yourself as the situation dictates! As you said, one of the benefits of age is that it normally brings wisdom, and hopefully, enough sense to avoid doing something foolish - like shooting someone for texting during a movie.

I'm 58, and earned advanced belts in two martial arts (even started Krav Maga last year), and while I feel it's important to know how to do MORE than just shoot acuratelly I'll be damned if I'm going to refrain from shooting if I believe the situation calls for it.

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Old 02-26-2014, 08:43 AM
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No need. This is why:

Raiders of the Lost Ark - Why Guns Are Better Than Swords - YouTube
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:30 AM
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Hi:
I was NEVER successful in "UN-armed combat. Normally I would badly bruise my opponent's knuckles with my face.
If push comes to shove in this time period, before drawing my firearm:
1. start screaming "RAPE, RAPE"!
2. Knock my opponent silly with my purse (pink in color)
3. RUN (after kicking off my high heels)
4. If my opponent (S) start chasing me, I will stop long enough to throw my freshly soiled Depend Diaper in his/their face.
5. Find a phone and call his/their Mother (s) and tattle on him/them.

Jimmy (I an't right)
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:38 AM
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Jest chootem !
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:14 AM
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I haven't trained in a long time. So I don't rely on it much.

Older folks need to be even more diligent in watching their surroundings. Situational awareness and avoidance will help greatly.

Thugs know that older folks can't or won't stand there and take a beating. The thugs deserve to be shot. And not just once.

One reason I carry a second gun in a jacket pocket.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:33 AM
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I'm 65. There's now way I would get into a physical confrontation with anyone.
Also, I have too many physical problems to train for hand to hand.
Yiogo
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:12 PM
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I'm 62, arthritic with prosthetic hips and rods in my back. I use an aluminum cane with a strap around my wrist. If necessary, this will be used to fend off any attacker until I can access my concealed weapon, which will then be used because of the "disparity of force".

I feel situational awareness will make this unlikely. I certainly do not allow myself to get into the same situations that I did 40 years ago. Avoidance is key.
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:30 PM
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There is an old syain here in Texas...
"Don't start a fight with an old man..he'll likely
just kill ya".
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xfuzz View Post
There is an old syain here in Texas...
"Don't start a fight with an old man..he'll likely
just kill ya".
Quite often - usually when watching a movie or TV, the conversation went like this:
Me: "He's making a mistake"
Wife: What's that?
Me: Messin with the old guy.
(Sure enough, something bad always happens to them)
Now, when we watch TV or movies, I simply ask -"What was his mistake???"
Her: Messin with the old guy!
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:11 PM
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I'm 76 with COPD and head-to-toe arthritis. Knees are bone on bone. Can't run and couldn't survive a physical fight in one piece. Fortunately I live in a castle doctrine, stand-your-ground state.

Equally fortunately, I'm retired, no longer drive after dark, and almost never have to go into areas known to be dicey.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:28 PM
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Glad to see a huge dose of reality in this thread. There is no way I am able to duke it out with some young thug and come out on top. I studied Aikido quite intensely (eight classes per week for a long time) when I was younger with one of the students of the man who originated Aikido. Two years after I stopped going to classes (I moved to another city and there was nobody to study with), I was mugged by a guy with a gun and a sharpened screwdriver. There was no way my out of practice Aikido skills could have done a damned thing for me. Now, if I'd had a 1911, like I did after that incident, it might have been a very different story.
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
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Glad to see a huge dose of reality in this thread. There is no way I am able to duke it out with some young thug and come out on top. I studied Aikido quite intensely (eight classes per week for a long time) when I was younger with one of the students of the man who originated Aikido. Two years after I stopped going to classes (I moved to another city and there was nobody to study with), I was mugged by a guy with a gun and a sharpened screwdriver. There was no way my out of practice Aikido skills could have done a damned thing for me. Now, if I'd had a 1911, like I did after that incident, it might have been a very different story.
Sounds like you got out of the situation unscathed, in spite of having no gun and diminished Aikido skills? If all it cost you was some $$$...you're the winner.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:09 PM
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Depends on the situation. My super-active grandson is crowding 5 years old and has a 4 month old German Shepherd puppy.

It's touch and go around here, let me tell you.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:37 PM
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I’m 48, I hold a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and I doubt very seriously I could go toe to toe with a reasonably fit twentysomething but whether or not I’m going to fight hand to hand may not be my choice, if someone jumps me I’m at least going to have to fight until I can get my gun out.

I try to keep myself fit and am currently looking into studying a soft style such as Aikido where I don’t have to worry about pulling off a double back flip reverse hurricane kick.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Sounds like you got out of the situation unscathed, in spite of having no gun and diminished Aikido skills? If all it cost you was some $$$...you're the winner.
Actually, no. I was stabbed through the heart with the screw driver after giving the guy no trouble at all and miraculously survived. I've told the story here before and don't really want to get into it again.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:45 PM
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Yes..........
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:50 PM
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I studied BJJ when I was young, and trained in Krav Maga while active duty, but I haven't trained actively in about two years.
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
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Iím 48, I hold a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and I doubt very seriously I could go toe to toe with a reasonably fit twentysomething...
Even if it was just one????
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Iím 48, I hold a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and I doubt very seriously I could go toe to toe with a reasonably fit twentysomething but whether or not Iím going to fight hand to hand may not be my choice, if someone jumps me Iím at least going to have to fight until I can get my gun out.

I try to keep myself fit and am currently looking into studying a soft style such as Aikido where I donít have to worry about pulling off a double back flip reverse hurricane kick.
Thanks for all the replies and I wholeheartedly agree that avoidance is usually possible and always best, but my question, as Smoke points out, is what is my plan if not given the choice - ie jumped without warning...being able to at least fight long enough to get my gun out is my concern. I'm still a relatively fit 49 but I have no illusions of being able to go toe-to-toe with a determined 20-something. And the bigger point is I have NO DESIRE to do so...fighting hurts!

Situational awareness and avoidance is no doubt the most important advice, but if avoidance was guarenteed to work, then I wouldn't need to carry.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:22 PM
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The problem with plans is that things never happen according to plan. Are you in danger of death or grave bodily harm? If I'm not and somebody wants to punch me in the eye when I'm carrying and not take it any further, I guess I'm gonna have a black eye, and they're gonna walk away.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:33 PM
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By no measure am I the baddest dude...anywhere. But if I shot everyone who has taken a poke at me the population would be a bit less.

Not every confrontation must result in somebody being shot.

Be safe.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:33 PM
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I have a slight martial arts background as an adult. You're never too old to learn and practice...

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Old 02-26-2014, 08:34 PM
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I have had a fair amount of training in practical methods of unarmed defense. I am fifty nine. I am 6'2" and around 220 and not all fat so I'm not helpless. I would not engage in a punching match with anybody. Any skills I have would be used for escape, weapon retention and to get sombody off of me enough to use an equalizer. I do carry a kuboton and OC so I am not in the position to have either the gun or begging for mercy as my only choices. I consider good social skills and self-control as part of my defensive package...So, it really doesn't take a lot of training to learn to use a few techniques that can help if the attacker is able to get close enough to negate using the gun. I taught a few of those things to staff who worked in psychiatric settings. All sorts of people were able to learn those techniques. Some modicum of practice is also a good idea.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:06 PM
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I ran the "Use of Force" section with the department I worked at for almost 20 years. We combined PPCT along with numerous other training tactics that we picked up from various use of force schools and seminars around the country.
We took the best of these and created our own training format. We trained the whole department one day a month and shot several times a year plus a yearly qualification.
Too much stuff to post here but basically we taught our officers to win the fight and we will sort out the rest later.
Since retiring, I do more cardio and weight training than I have ever done because I have more time.
Knowledge of techniques is good but if you don't keep your endurance up, you risk not being able to sustain during an encounter. Age is a deciding factor in that too. Are we as good as we were 10 or 20 years ago? I think not.
The eyes, the throat, center of balance, where the head goes, the body goes. All good.
Know your abilities, but also know your limitations and have the proper weapons available.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:23 PM
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I was gonna type a bunch of stuff, but I'll just say this...

Meet Chuck Sullivan:


He is in his mid 80s. He is the Senior Grandmaster of my school. He's older than anyone in this thread and can still wipe the floor with any two students. So, don't tell me you're too old to learn some empty hand self-defense.

About guns...
"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

That's my favorite quote. It's simple and to the point. If you refuse to get trained in empty hand self-defense, at least seek training in how to use a gun effectively.

Shooting is a perishable skill. Sorry, but shooting 100 rounds, slow fire, from the ready, at your range, twice a year, in 70į weather does not prepare you to defend yourself with a gun.

Answer these questions for yourself:
If someone grabs your wrist, can you get free?
If you are bear hugged from behind, can you get free?
What are the two most effective strikes for self defense? Hint: anyone can do them.
Can you shoot two shots, on target, at 7 yards, starting from the holster, in under 2.4 seconds?
Can you clear a type II malfunction, and shoot a follow up shot, in under 3 seconds?


I'm 47 years old. I hold a second degree black belt in Chinese Kenpo (you can verify that here: IKCA Family Tree Page 2) I have not trained martial arts since I broke my right femur last June, but I can do all those things listed above. You can too. You just have to decide that you want to.


ProgressiveTruth mentioned being disabled. This past year being on crutches has opened my eyes a lot to a disabled person's plight. Obviously there are different levels of disability, but many simply cannot physically resist. This is an area I'm working on. I don't have a solution yet, but I intend to address this. I want to develop something that a disabled person can do to defend themselves.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:46 PM
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- And the bigger point is I have NO DESIRE to do so...fighting hurts!
I have never been in a fight win lose or draw that I didnít hurt like hell the next day and the fights that I was in werenít against someone who was really trying to hurt me.

A fight like that isnít a joke and if there is anything I can do to avoid one Iím going to
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:53 PM
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The problem with plans is that things never happen according to plan. Are you in danger of death or grave bodily harm? If I'm not and somebody wants to punch me in the eye when I'm carrying and not take it any further, I guess I'm gonna have a black eye, and they're gonna walk away.
Assuming I donít know the person attacking me I have no idea what their motivation is. I would have to assume that any random stranger that hit me was attacking me and I would proceed on that assumption.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:13 PM
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Assuming I donít know the person attacking me I have no idea what their motivation is. I would have to assume that any random stranger that hit me was attacking me and I would proceed on that assumption.
Well, ok. Whatever you want to do is your decision and your responsibility. I have no desire to shoot someone that isn't threatening my life. If somebody slaps you, do you assume the right of deadly force? Where do you start assuming? If I don't feel my life is threatened, or I'm not in danger of grave bodily harm, the gun stays in its holster. Period. But you can feel free to proceed under any assumption you want. Whatever decision has to be made has to be made based on the facts at hand, not a theoretical discussion on an internet forum. I've been in one life or death situation, and it was pretty obvious. I just had no way to defend myself. I remedied that. I haven't gotten into a fight with anyone since the fourth grade.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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To the original poster:

The health limitations you mentioned don't prevent you from leaning a few "basic" techniques for protecting yourself and/or creating space to retrieve your firearm.
I see you live in Phoenix. If there is a certified Krav Maga instructor in the area, they can help in this regard.

Be safe, and enjoy a "protected" life!
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:55 PM
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Well, ok. Whatever you want to do is your decision and your responsibility. I have no desire to shoot someone that isn't threatening my life. If somebody slaps you, do you assume the right of deadly force? Where do you start assuming? If I don't feel my life is threatened, or I'm not in danger of grave bodily harm, the gun stays in its holster. Period. But you can feel free to proceed under any assumption you want. Whatever decision has to be made has to be made based on the facts at hand, not a theoretical discussion on an internet forum. I've been in one life or death situation, and it was pretty obvious. I just had no way to defend myself. I remedied that. I haven't gotten into a fight with anyone since the fourth grade.
It's called common sense and knowing the law. Knowing when DISPARITY OF FORCE applies.

Several years ago here locally an older man and a younger man got into an argument. Over nothing. The younger man punched the older man knocking him to the ground. The punch didn't kill him. But when he hit his head on the curb, that killed him.

If any man regardless of age, size, strength, or skill picks a fight with me, I will do everything I can to avoid getting hurt. But the longer he persists, the greater chance that he has of getting shot.

I WILL go home to my family. It's my responsibility to them to do so unharmed. Even if I have to explain my actions in a court of law.

I don't understand why some don't understand this cause it's really quite simple.

When a man attacks another man he assumes that he has the upper hand. And even though he may, assuming is the most dangerous thing a man can do because he thinks it's going to be easy. That we won't fight back. And eventually he will run into someone that will simply shoot him instead of taking a beating.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I was gonna type a bunch of stuff, but I'll just say this...

Meet Chuck Sullivan:


He is in his mid 80s. He is the Senior Grandmaster of my school. He's older than anyone in this thread and can still wipe the floor with any two students. So, don't tell me you're too old to learn some empty hand self-defense.

About guns...
"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

That's my favorite quote. It's simple and to the point. If you refuse to get trained in empty hand self-defense, at least seek training in how to use a gun effectively.

Shooting is a perishable skill. Sorry, but shooting 100 rounds, slow fire, from the ready, at your range, twice a year, in 70į weather does not prepare you to defend yourself with a gun.

Answer these questions for yourself:
If someone grabs your wrist, can you get free?
If you are bear hugged from behind, can you get free?
What are the two most effective strikes for self defense? Hint: anyone can do them.
Can you shoot two shots, on target, at 7 yards, starting from the holster, in under 2.4 seconds?
Can you clear a type II malfunction, and shoot a follow up shot, in under 3 seconds?


I'm 47 years old. I hold a second degree black belt in Chinese Kenpo (you can verify that here: IKCA Family Tree Page 2) I have not trained martial arts since I broke my right femur last June, but I can do all those things listed above. You can too. You just have to decide that you want to.


ProgressiveTruth mentioned being disabled. This past year being on crutches has opened my eyes a lot to a disabled person's plight. Obviously there are different levels of disability, but many simply cannot physically resist. This is an area I'm working on. I don't have a solution yet, but I intend to address this. I want to develop something that a disabled person can do to defend themselves.
Hopefully you can return to your studies soon. I was forced into traditional Okinawan Karate at a young age and hated it. Then Judo. Hated that too. I studies for several years but when I got a little older with a mind of my own, I quit.

My uncle looks almost exactly like Mr Miyagi. Same size. Same hair or lack of it. He still owns and runs his own dojo in Okinawa. At the age of 83, he can still kick butt.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:19 AM
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I recall hearing Massad Ayoob say that in the case of an older victim being attacked by a younger, fitter/faster assailant, the "disparity of force" of the situation gives the victim the right to use lethal force - even if the assailant is unarmed. This also applies to women being attacked by men, or a victim being attacked by multiple assailants.

You prepare physically, the best you can based on your health and abilities, but by all means protect yourself as the situation dictates! As you said, one of the benefits of age is that it normally brings wisdom, and hopefully, enough sense to avoid doing something foolish - like shooting someone for texting during a movie.

I'm 58, and earned advanced belts in two martial arts (even started Krav Maga last year), and while I feel it's important to know how to do MORE than just shoot acuratelly I'll be damned if I'm going to refrain from shooting if I believe the situation calls for it.
I wonder if this disparity of force thing you mentioned has something to do in why on that Travon Martin case, Zimmerman was cleared. Because regardless of the other issues, when it came down to that fight, Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked. So he pulled his gun or he would have been beaten to death or close enough.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:04 AM
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I train 4 or 5 days each week. I go full contact on Thursdays.
I'm big and easy to hit.
I hit back real good.
I turned 61 this year.
I test this spring for 4th Dan.
I ain't stoppin'
I ain't givin' up.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:06 AM
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I wonder if this disparity of force thing you mentioned has something to do in why on that Travon Martin case, Zimmerman was cleared. Because regardless of the other issues, when it came down to that fight, Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked. So he pulled his gun or he would have been beaten to death or close enough.
Disparity of force was certainly part of the decision, but it really boiled down to the fact that Zimmerman was being clobbered.

In the eyes of the law, the it is called the "reasonable man" standard. The concept is, would a reasonable man in the same situation had the same fear of death or great bodily harm?

It has to be a fear that any reasonable man would feel. For example, if a person had a deathly fear of spiders and saw a man in a spider costume that terrified him so he shot the guy. Would that pass the reasonable man standard? No, I doubt it. However, if you have a guy on top of you and he's pounding your head against the pavement, then just about anyone would agree that you have a fear of great bodily harm.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:59 AM
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I wonder if this disparity of force thing you mentioned has something to do in why on that Travon Martin case, Zimmerman was cleared. Because regardless of the other issues, when it came down to that fight, Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked. So he pulled his gun or he would have been beaten to death or close enough.
No. Disparity of force was not a factor. It had more to do with Florida's law on stand your ground (google it and read the last 2 paragraphs). Even though Zimmerman didn't invoke SYG, I understand it was still explained to the jury - and thus (I believe) a factor in the verdict. In essence it says that a person can use deadly force if they feel they are in jeopardy of great bodily harm or loss of life...even if THEY instigated the situation that led to it! Which is exactly what Zimmerman did.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:20 AM
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To the O.P.:
Here is a link to a video of a man by the name of Sgt. Rory Miller. He has written a book that I believe may be of some use to you. It's called "Facing Violence: Preparing for the unexpected". I highly recommend it!

To those of you with martial arts experience, I recommend his second book: "Meditations on Violence: A comparrison of martial arts training and real world violence: You will benefit!

GregsMartialArts - YouTube
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:13 AM
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It's called common sense and knowing the law. Knowing when DISPARITY OF FORCE applies.

Several years ago here locally an older man and a younger man got into an argument. Over nothing. The younger man punched the older man knocking him to the ground. The punch didn't kill him. But when he hit his head on the curb, that killed him.

If any man regardless of age, size, strength, or skill picks a fight with me, I will do everything I can to avoid getting hurt. But the longer he persists, the greater chance that he has of getting shot.

I WILL go home to my family. It's my responsibility to them to do so unharmed. Even if I have to explain my actions in a court of law.

I don't understand why some don't understand this cause it's really quite simple.

When a man attacks another man he assumes that he has the upper hand. And even though he may, assuming is the most dangerous thing a man can do because he thinks it's going to be easy. That we won't fight back. And eventually he will run into someone that will simply shoot him instead of taking a beating.
I agree with all you say here. I originally said that if somebody punched me in the eye and did nothing else, no escalation, then he'd walk away, and I'd have a black eye. Then there was a follow up saying basically if I am punched, I should assume I'm being attacked. Somehow, I don't think that telling a judge and jury "Yes, your honor, he punched me in the nose. I fell to the ground. He just stood there laughing at me, so I blew his head off because when he punched me, I assumed he was trying to kill me" is going to go over real well. It needs to be more than that if I'm going to defend myself with lethal force. It depends totally on the facts surrounding the punch. If a guy yells "I'm gonna kill you, m*****f***er", he's two hundred fifty pounds of muscle, and he starts beating on you, I think at that point you have a much better chance of assuming he is trying to kill you and that you have to defend yourself. The point is that it ALL depends on what the facts are at the time. In my theoretical fight, one punch was thrown and the guy walked away. My choice would be to leave my gun in the holster and not escalate. I have no desire to put the rest of my life on the line with the possibility of jail, lawyer's fees, and a civil suit, if I don't have to.

An example of disparity of force...When I was studying combat shooting privately, one of my teacher's other students was in a dark parking lot with his girlfriend getting into their car after seeing a movie. A very muscular man much larger than the student came at them yelling "I'm going to kill you m*****f***er!" My fellow student put two rounds of .45 hollowpoints into the guy's chest. He was dead before he hit the ground. The student wasn't charged. In that case, if I'm remembering it correctly, there wasn't even a punch thrown. The attacker made his intentions clear, there was a disparity of force, and the student defended himself. That was in Georgia. I don't know if it would have been as easy for my fellow student in another state.

All I'm saying is that everything depends on the facts at the time, and I don't intend to assume anything. If something happens, I'll make the best decision I can based on the facts in front of me. If I can get away or deescalate, that is what I'll do. If I can't, and my life is threatened, I'll be forced to defend myself, and that is how I would hope my actions would look to a judge and jury - that I did what I could until I had no other choice. It is also necessary for me to know at the deepest level that I did everything possible to not take someone's life. It can't be an easy thing to live with.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:23 AM
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Well, ok. Whatever you want to do is your decision and your responsibility. I have no desire to shoot someone that isn't threatening my life. If somebody slaps you, do you assume the right of deadly force? Where do you start assuming? If I don't feel my life is threatened, or I'm not in danger of grave bodily harm, the gun stays in its holster. Period. But you can feel free to proceed under any assumption you want. Whatever decision has to be made has to be made based on the facts at hand, not a theoretical discussion on an internet forum. I've been in one life or death situation, and it was pretty obvious. I just had no way to defend myself. I remedied that. I haven't gotten into a fight with anyone since the fourth grade.
I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. The way I read the OP he’s not talking about some random street fight he’s talking about being prepared for a surprise attack as in a mugging.

I haven’t been in an argument that escalated to a fight since I left the Army. If I'm practicing situational awareness I should see any situation such as an argument that might result in some unknown person punching me developing and avoid it.

It’s been my experience (notwithstanding the knock out game) that people don’t just walk up to someone on the street out of the blue and punch them unless they are attacking.

One of the key components of both my martial arts training and my firearms training has been avoidance and de-escalation if at all possible.

If I’m walking around with a gun I can’t afford to get into some random pissing contest with a stranger over some perceived slight, I have to be willing to be the one to back down every time. If a guy wants to yell at me for cutting him off in traffic I apologize and take the blame even if I was parked when he said it happened.

If I follow that course I shouldn’t have to worry about someone walking up to me and popping me in the eye.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:54 AM
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there is no reason for someone to just jump you or attack you that is a threat on you , you dont know you have to defend your self and your going to do it the best way possible for you and family. one action causes a reaction
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:16 AM
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I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. The way I read the OP heís not talking about some random street fight heís talking about being prepared for a surprise attack as in a mugging.

I havenít been in an argument that escalated to a fight since I left the Army. If I'm practicing situational awareness I should see any situation such as an argument that might result in some unknown person punching me developing and avoid it.

Itís been my experience (notwithstanding the knock out game) that people donít just walk up to someone on the street out of the blue and punch them unless they are attacking.

One of the key components of both my martial arts training and my firearms training has been avoidance and de-escalation if at all possible.

If Iím walking around with a gun I canít afford to get into some random pissing contest with a stranger over some perceived slight, I have to be willing to be the one to back down every time. If a guy wants to yell at me for cutting him off in traffic I apologize and take the blame even if I was parked when he said it happened.

If I follow that course I shouldnít have to worry about someone walking up to me and popping me in the eye.
I think we're on the same page here. I no doubt misunderstood your comment, which is easy to do on the net when you have nothing but the words in front of you to determine intent. My theoretical situation was just a way of saying when you are carrying a gun, the responsibility that goes with that means that you may have to let some things slide without reacting with violence in order to do your best to deescalate the situation. The gun is for when there is no other option.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:53 AM
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It can't hurt,

By the time it comes to a wrestling match, it is legal for self defense "in the gravest extreme".
I'm not about to square off with some clown to "settle it like men".
What I know about hand fighting I learned a long time ago, it still works, because anatomy hasn't changed, and nothing I learned involved high kicks, spins or referees.

Yes, "they" do require me to go through some exercises and motions that are martial arts stuff, but no one in the field ever uses it. (Speaking here about my field, not anyone else's). It keeps me limber, so that's good.
The training with a blue gun, a heavy bag and another man are good for "getting loose" so I can either get away, or reach a weapon.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:26 PM
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Well, ok. Whatever you want to do is your decision and your responsibility. I have no desire to shoot someone that isn't threatening my life. If somebody slaps you, do you assume the right of deadly force? Where do you start assuming? If I don't feel my life is threatened, or I'm not in danger of grave bodily harm, the gun stays in its holster. Period. But you can feel free to proceed under any assumption you want. Whatever decision has to be made has to be made based on the facts at hand, not a theoretical discussion on an internet forum. I've been in one life or death situation, and it was pretty obvious. I just had no way to defend myself. I remedied that. I haven't gotten into a fight with anyone since the fourth grade.
When your young, tough and fit, one can afford to take chances on the outcome of a physical scuffle, or wrestling match. Old men who have wrestling matches with a young fit attacker are
more likely to have their gun taken away from them and used on them. So if I am attacked physically and I am carrying my
guns, it is a life or death situation since I don't want my guns
used on me. Some predators prey on the old and the disabled.
and the wolves usually attack old deer, as well as young calves
that they perceive as easy prey. So if one does everything one can do to avoid the fight and they still want a wrestling match or a scuffle, yes, I will go for my guns as I will not be a willing
victim.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:12 PM
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Wearing my Like button out. Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and advice. This is just what I was looking for.
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