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Old 03-19-2014, 01:40 PM
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I went to the Kansas City Zoo yesterday with my youngest daughter (she is 18 years old). I do have my CCW, but chose not to carry in the zoo because I did not know if it was allowed. It was a free day at the zoo, so there were tons of people there. I asked a couple of cops in the zoo if I was allowed to carry in the zoo. They did not know, but said that it would be a good day to carry.

At the end of the day, while we were leaving, zoo employees were pushing people back in the zoo and encouraging them to go in a building right by the exit. We had just left this building since I wanted to use the rest room before we left. It ends up, some stupid idiot decided that a family fun day at the zoo was a good time to work out some issues with other idiots using a gun. A cop got jumped and there were fights all around us. Supposedly nobody was hurt, though we did see an ambulance with its lights on trying to get to the zoo when we were trying to get to our car. If I had not stopped to use the rest room, we would have been right in the middle of the gun play.
If I had carried and did not stop to use the rest room, should I have A: exchanged gunfire with the idiot to stop him from hurting me or others, B: taken cover, hand on my gun, only drawing if he was aiming at me or my daughter, or C: just run like heck to get out of there. The husband says #B, I am inclined to agree. I just wanted others opinions.
This is a real life situation. Talking to the Kansas City PD they said that they wish more people who knew what they were doing, (aka had their CCW's and were not stupid) carried. I now know that I am allowed to carry at the zoo, and I will next time we go.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:09 PM
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I would opt for C: if the option of vacating the scene was reasonably available. If escape were not an option then B: would be the better choice. In a chaotic, evolving scene you cannot be sure someone is targeting you or your loved ones as clearly as if you were being attacked on the street or in your home. Remember, in this chaotic scene you will be just another person holding a gun to the police and they will not know if you are a good gal/guy or not.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:18 PM
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I would opt for C: if the option of vacating the scene was reasonably available. If escape were not an option then B: would be the better choice. In a chaotic, evolving scene you cannot be sure someone is targeting you or your loved ones as clearly as if you were being attacked on the street or in your home. Remember, in this chaotic scene you will be just another person holding a gun to the police and they will not know if you are a good gal/guy or not.
What the gunslinger said. Especially with your daughter along, (C) if possible, (B) if not.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:20 PM
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I would opt for C: if the option of vacating the scene was reasonably available. If escape were not an option then B: would be the better choice. In a chaotic, evolving scene you cannot be sure someone is targeting you or your loved ones as clearly as if you were being attacked on the street or in your home. Remember, in this chaotic scene you will be just another person holding a gun to the police and they will not know if you are a good gal/guy or not.
Not to be a smart a** but is that the common rule in order to be legally safe.
I mean if a crazy person executing other people or even creating an immediate threat to their life and limbs, but at the same time if our escape route is open, should we escape?

What will happen if a CCW steps up and stops the BG with deadly force?
Just wondering...
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:32 PM
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If I read the OP correctly the police were literally right there when it happened. If that’s actually the case I would have stayed completely out of it.

If my child (or any other family member) is with me they are my first responsibility so my first move is to ensure their safety then I go from there
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:47 PM
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If I read the OP correctly the police were literally right there when it happened. If that’s actually the case I would have stayed completely out of it.

If my child (or any other family member) is with me they are my first responsibility so my first move is to ensure their safety then I go from there
Yeah, I understand. I wasn't asking for that specific situation. It is common sense not to jump into middle of a conflict with a gun on hand where LEOs are already responding.
That's common sense!

I meant in general...

Is it the duty of a CCW or is it just morally and ethically right thing to do save complete strangers from a BG harming them?

What does the law says?

Say, while I'm driving I stop for a school bus because it is dropping some kids in a neighborhood.
Then a crazy person appears and began stabbing the kids on the sidewalk.
What is the duty as a citizen and CCW.
Burn rubber and back up and disappear while calling 9-1-1 or get out of the car, stop the attacker even by using deadly force?

I ask this because I see many posts where some members with CCW telling us (not the OP of this thread) that if the threat is not directly aimed them or their loved ones they have "no duty" to act...

I wonder if some of us confusing the "duty" with the word "obligation".

What do you guys think?

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Old 03-19-2014, 02:52 PM
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If someone starts SHOOTING in my general vicinity I'm going to shoot back. for the safety of myself and others.

*Assuming I have a clear shot without the possibility of endangering others. If he's randomly firing while being swarmed and wrestled by cops and civilians, I'd hold off, but I would assist in using non-deadly force if needed.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:55 PM
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If someone starts SHOOTING in my general vicinity I'm going to shoot back. for the safety of myself and others.
What if you see a complete stranger guy arguing with his girlfriend suddenly pulling a knife and began to stab her over and over?
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:00 PM
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What if you see a complete stranger guy arguing with his girlfriend suddenly pulling a knife and began to stab her over and over?
Defense of 3rd party, deadly force is justified.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:10 PM
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Is it the duty of a CCW or is it just morally and ethically right thing to do save complete strangers from a BG harming them?
That is an excellent question Capt.Jim and one which all of us who carry need to think about.

Under the law, we do not have an obligation to rush to the defense of others (neither do police officers!) There are myriad questions to discuss about this possibility.

If we have the hit rate typical of most police officers in shootings (20%) what is out liability for those rounds that missed the perp? What if we injure or kill a bystander? Will that be considered manslaughter or even murder? We saw some NYPD officers get in trouble in the last year over this question.

Let's say we land 100% of our shots on the perp. But he or she takes a few minutes to expire and keeps assaulting others. Have we bought some personal liability over having shot the perp but not incapacitated him or her?

Or will the jurisdiction view our actions outside of defending ourselves as assault or manslaughter, or even murder? I think there is a current case somewhere in the east where a dad is facing manslsughter charges for having defended his family (with a baseball bat).

In my home I am confident in legally defending my family. If I am outside the home but can get on the witenss stand and testify passionately about how I recognized the direct threat to me or my family, I will be confident about my defense. But the outcomes become hazy beyond that perimeter. I would hate to witness others harmed or murdered, I would feel badly about that. But I am not certain that I could solve the problem for them. Look at the police shoot-outs that do not go according to the playbook.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:27 PM
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Some legal issues, both the pure legal, and the social response, will vary by where you are in the US. Since silly places like CA and NJ are on my NFE list, I don't worry about their weird views; if you are there, you better know what is going to be the likely response. The generally best answer is going to be C. If you directly see the knife wielder unjustified stabbing*, circumstances dictate tactics. If I see a cop under attack and I can respond without looking like another assailant, I'm going to do what I can, too. (It is easier than most other cases, clearly, with a uniformed officer.)

Liability if the offender keeps shooting after you have shot him? Not bloody likely, and certainly not something that would make me worry. The correct response is to keep doing what is needed until you perceive that the offender is no longer a threat anyway. If that means dumping a mag of your carry ammo into him, and reloading and doing it again because he is still doing what justified shooting, SHUT UP AND BE DECISIVE.

*A couple days ago in Seattle, a pair of drunk off-duty fire fighters and the girlfriend of one of them started a fight with a homeless guy and used various means of assaulting him until he defended himself with a knife. Such situations can be uncertain. The three A-Hs got charged.

BTW: OP, you need to absolutely KNOW FOR SURE where you can and can't carry legally. I don't care what people like. If it is lawful to carry, there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:21 PM
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If it is lawful to carry, there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever.
there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unathere is no excuse for being unarmed. Everrmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever

What part of the above is unclear?
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:42 PM
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The thing that bothers me about these "what if" scenarios is that someone invariably jumps in and tells me that the fact that I am armed invests me with some moral “duty to respond”.

I’m more likely to win the lottery 6 times than I am to come upon something as clear cut as mad man stabbing school children to death.

As I said earlier my first duty is to my family and until they are safe I have no other duty.

So given the most likely scenario, my wife and I in an active shooter scenario the first thing I’m going to do is get her out of the AO or failing that under some actual hard cover. I will do nothing else until that is accomplished and once that is accomplished I will assess and go from there.

As for getting in an altercation between two other people, I learned about that the hard way at work several years ago.

I had a couple arguing in the facility I worked at (parking garage next to several bars wonderful place to be on Friday night). He grabbed her pulled back his fist and said he was going to beat her ***. My partner and I stepped in, pointed a can of OC spray at the guy and his woman went absolutely nuts on us for threatening “her man”.

We told her to stay put and him to leave the property. As soon as he did we asked her if she wanted us to call the police for her, she replied that she wanted to go with her boyfriend so we let her.

By the time we got to the top of the building they were a block away and he was beating the Hell out of her so we called the cops. They came by after arresting him and told us she refused to press charges.

Never again
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:05 PM
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One person shooting into a crowd of people, OR SEVERALL. Whether their intentions are good or evil doesn't matter much to someone hit by a stray or a pass thru. I can't say 100% what I'D DO IF, unless it happened but "THEORETICALLY" C,B,A.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:35 PM
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there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unathere is no excuse for being unarmed. Everrmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever there is no excuse for being unarmed. Ever

What part of the above is unclear?
What part of not knowing if it was legal or not to carry in the zoo was not clear? I choose to err on the side of caution and not carry. I did not want to have to lock up my carry gun in the car when it was in a not very good area. I did not want my car broken into.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:50 PM
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In Missouri, if you are legal in your use of a CCW, you are shielded from third party claims of damages. The bad guy bears all liability.

AND......concealed means concealed!
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:57 PM
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J frames: Welcome everywhere there isn't a metal detector.

The fact that you're asking us what to do means you definitely should've packed your $#!+ and gotten out of dodge.

Daughters need fathers. The only battle for you is with anything getting in the way of getting her to safety. What if you were killed? That would be horrifying for her and she might do something foolish like run to you and also be killed. Secure family first and then go be brave if you must.

Next time leave more quickly; faster than congress spends a dollar. He who hesitates is lost.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:01 PM
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Just like all multiple choice exams.....when in doubt ...choose C...
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:07 PM
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I almost carried, but like I said, chose not to because I did not know if the zoo was a no carry zone. I had my knife in my waist band. When we left, people were swarming up and down the hills fighting. I took one look and told the daughter that we had to leave, NOW.
I posted the question because I almost carried and missed being in the middle of the shooting part by just a couple of minutes and wanted to know others opinions to the situation. I asked a gentleman who works at the husbands work today the same question. He is a ex cop, boarder patrol, military vet. etc. He also used to work undercover. He said that he would have eliminated the treat to others. I thought it was a real thought provoking situation.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:19 PM
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What part of not knowing if it was legal or not to carry in the zoo was not clear? I choose to err on the side of caution and not carry. I did not want to have to lock up my carry gun in the car when it was in a not very good area. I did not want my car broken into.
I'm not trying to be a jerk but there is no doubt in my mind where I can and can not legally carry a firearm in Colorado. I make a point of researching the carry laws for my state.

IMO if you have a permit it is your responsibility to do the same for your state
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:26 PM
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I had my knife in my waist band.
This reads, "I felt like I might need my knife." Otherwise you wouldn't have put it your waistband, would you? You felt comfortable "sneaking" your knife in, but not your gun? Otherwise you would have put it in a bag or purse or pocket and not the waistband. It wasn't there as a tool in other purpose than defensive just as the gun would have been. Alarm bells ringing softly in your head?

We take our chances in this world. Many are of the thought that being tried by twelve is more favorable than being prematurely carried by six.

Gun free zones are me free zones. I try to be there as seldomly as possible and I am never without an exit strategy and in anything other than an alert state of mind.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:54 PM
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What if you see a complete stranger guy arguing with his girlfriend suddenly pulling a knife and began to stab her over and over?
It could be she pulled a gun and tried to rob him. He is using his knife to defend himself. Larry
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:20 PM
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Option c: take cover, run, escape, don't look back, keep runnin'. All the way to guaranteed safety.
Concealed carry ought to be a complete surprise to a BG.
The right to defend oneself or others is akin to the right to vote.
Whether you excercise that right is still the exclusive domain of the individual.
In a lethal defensive mess, you still have the choice, if and only if you are armed.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:27 PM
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They came by after arresting him and told us she refused to press charges.
Smoke offers a great example, you never know the relationships in what appears to be an assault or how those folks are going to react when you intercede to "help." It can be problematic for the guys with the shiny badges and blue uniforms interceding in these events. But it has been many years since I wore a badge so my choice would be to butt out unless, and until, they bring the argument to me.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:36 PM
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Odd that the police would say "it's a good day to carry"?
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:40 PM
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If it were me and I wanted an answer I could count on, I would ask a lawyer who specializes in that sort of thing, in lieu of some strangers on an Internet gun forum.

And seriously, that is not meant to be snarky. It's just that all you'll get here is opinions. Some will be "run away" and some will be "CHOOT IM!"
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:09 PM
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I'm sure that will mean a lot & relieve the suffering of those being "collateral damage" & their families in Miz. That "over willingness to shoot into a crowd mentality" is what has me more afraid of being shot by fellow ccw owners than bad guys.

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Old 03-19-2014, 11:31 PM
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It is the duty and responsibility for anyone that legally carries a gun to know ALL applicable laws.

What happens between the ears is first and foremost important so that we don't get caught in such situations ill prepared.

In hostile situations it is always best to run. If not, fight.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:33 PM
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What part of not knowing if it was legal or not to carry in the zoo was not clear? I choose to err on the side of caution and not carry. I did not want to have to lock up my carry gun in the car when it was in a not very good area. I did not want my car broken into.
Where is the KC Zoo ? I know there are some real "iffy" areas of KCMO . My oldest daughter was married at the Rose Garden south of the Plaza, while we were waiting, her soon to be MIL and BIL called for directions, when the groom found what street they were driving down he said "STOP, TURN AROUND, DRIVE THE OTHER WAY NOW! " He told me "I have a gun and I don't drive down that street" (He is LEO on Ks side)

I think you did the right thing given the circumstances as I understand them.

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Old 03-19-2014, 11:49 PM
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It is good to live in Texas... Philosophy is and always has been my favorite subject so how about a foray into it, shall we? Everyone always ask "what if you shoot someone doing a terrible thing to someone else entirely a stranger? That would maybe not be the best thing and how would I live with the consequences" But no one ever seems to flip the coin and consider the other side of it. I guarantee you if we were sitting in Newtown (hopefully) every single one of us would have pulled OUR trigger before that one got pulled 154 times... Who would be the true coward who could not live with themselves anymore? The person who HAD a chance to prevent a massacre but didn't... Reminds me of in Saving Private Ryan when the American is stabbed and killed after a struggle while another stood idly by and had life "giving" power in his hands but squandered it away. No, it is not you duty. It is not your obligation. But neither is pulling someone out of a burning car or giving CPR to someone on the side of the road. And if we lived in China or India we may not give enough of a $%&# about our fellow man to do those things that we as Americans consider almost our "God ordered" responsibility. I am not some wannabe cowboy who wants to shoot people to get my rocks off BUT if someone is shooting/stabbing/bludgeoning you or your kids or someone elses kids I will let that 185 grain bullet fly with a prayer behind it to give it a little push in the right direction.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:53 PM
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And no I am not endorsing "shooting into a crowd". That is something that the police in Chicago did, not a responsible CHL holder. If you are unsure in your abilities and don't practice practice practice practice practice so that you are competent when it is needed then just ignore above message.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:57 PM
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Smoke offers a great example, you never know the relationships in what appears to be an assault or how those folks are going to react when you intercede to "help." It can be problematic for the guys with the shiny badges and blue uniforms interceding in these events. But it has been many years since I wore a badge so my choice would be to butt out unless, and until, they bring the argument to me.
Just so everyone's on the same page here, I had a blue (Ugly, polyester, Law Pro) uniform but my badge said "Private Security"
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:03 AM
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I guarantee you if we were sitting in Newtown (hopefully) every single one of us would have pulled OUR trigger before that one got pulled 154 times... Who would be the true coward who could not live with themselves anymore?
Again you are positing a situation that is crystal clear (there is no ambiguity to someone walking around a school offing kids) and as unlikely to happen right in front of any one of us as being struck by lightning.

What do you do when you walk around a corner and see one guy holding a gun on another? That's all the information you get, is one a cop? did one just rob the other? If so who?
What are you going to do?
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:31 AM
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Just so everyone's on the same page here, I had a blue (Ugly, polyester, Law Pro) uniform but my badge said "Private Security"
I understood that, Smoke, from your original post. I am sorry if I confused the readers in how I framed my response.

I owned a guard company several decades ago. I wish my employees had exhibited the common sense you showed in how you handled the problem you described. I have hours worth of "funny" stories about my employees' escapades. Like the one about an employee who was miles away from his post in a company vehicle picking up 12 year old hookers who stole the company vehicle when he went to buy them beer who then took the car to Las Vegas..... Most of them had visions of playing cop and acted that out (think "1970's cop shows"). I've got a million of them folks.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:50 AM
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Again you are positing a situation that is crystal clear (there is no ambiguity to someone walking around a school offing kids) and as unlikely to happen right in front of any one of us as being struck by lightning.

What do you do when you walk around a corner and see one guy holding a gun on another? That's all the information you get, is one a cop? did one just rob the other? If so who?
What are you going to do?

That is a 1 in 3000 chance... Upon reading the OP closer I see that this is a situation where it appears basically contained between an unclear aggressor and equally unclear aggressee. In that occasion heck yea I would get the - out of there as lawyers love to be AHs and I prefer to avoid contact with them
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:19 AM
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"STOP, TURN AROUND, DRIVE THE OTHER WAY NOW! " He told me "I have a gun and I don't drive down that street" (He is LEO on Ks side)
There should be no streets like that in this country. Why have we allowed this to happen to us? Sad.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:47 AM
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As civilians, our duty is first to ourselves and our families. I would not interject myself into a situation unless I knew all the factors involved. Sorry, but I owe that to my own family.

To the OP question:
The best fight is no fight. If at all possible, get away and make sure you and your daughter are safe.
If escape is impossible, seek cover. (Cover protects you from bullets. Concealment protects you from view.)
If you can't avoid the bad guy and can't get away, fight like an angry wolverine.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:53 AM
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There should be no streets like that in this country. Why have we allowed this to happen to us? Sad.
Yes it is sad but unfortunately true. At one time in East St Louis it was said if your house caught fire after dark the Fire dept would come at daylight to save anything left. ( this is not meant to impugn any firefighter anywhere, they all have enough bravery for 6 ordinary people, just illustrating the violence level)

Jim in Iowa
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:44 AM
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Again you are positing a situation that is crystal clear (there is no ambiguity to someone walking around a school offing kids) and as unlikely to happen right in front of any one of us as being struck by lightning.

What do you do when you walk around a corner and see one guy holding a gun on another? That's all the information you get, is one a cop? did one just rob the other? If so who?
What are you going to do?
Smoke, we are talking about in crystal clear situations, but yet not a direct threat to us or our loved ones type of incidents...

If someone turn around a corner and see a guy holding another guy at gunpoint and think "hmmm I should grab my gun and join these fellas" than that person is idiot enough to be cleansed from the gene pool!

Two days ago in my neighborhood, about 3 miles away from my home yet on a road I drive every time there was this incident in the news. A motorcycle cop pulls over a speeding car. Guy in the car slams his brake causing officer to crash then backs up over officer before taking off. Officer is seriously injured. They are asking public's help now if anybody saw anything.

Last month in a gang infested nearby town a Subway I've been few times being robbed. Girl at the counter was startled I guess and couldn't open the register quick enough and pissed of the guy who stabbed her few times. Luckily she is survived.

I say luckily because a few months ago next door 99 cents store being robbed and cashier stabbed in the neck and died on the spot!

In a situation that clear, I know the driver is not trying to show his license plate up close to that motorcycle officer or the guy with the knife reaching over the Subway counter is not the cashier girl's hairdresser trying to trim her banks or the guy at the 99 cent store swinging his knife to cashier is not trying to tickle him...

Now that we established, IF IN DOUBT run the hell away like Roadrunner!
What if NO DOUBT something bad is going on but yet it is not direct threat to us.
What would you do if you were between the isles looking a cheap toy for your dog at that 99 cent store?
Stay as far away from the cash register area and move towards the back of the store or ?????
That's the question!

We always hear and shame those people who witness a tragedy yet don't try to do anything to stop it.
Remember those type of news on TV???
"While the 84 yr old II World War veteran kicked and beaten in the middle of the street people videotape the beating yet nobody even said a word!" kind of news.

Should I try to stop them if I am passing by ?
What if these 3 thugs turn on me?
I am not strong enough to fight 3 thugs.
Should I draw and say "leave the man alone and get the hell out of here"... ???
If they say " F U" and charge me should I drop one or two of them?
If I do will it be justified?
Or in order to be safe, should I just videotape like the others from a distance while thinking "I shouldn't intervene, if the old man dies, he dies... Oh well that's life".

That's the question...
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Old 03-20-2014, 09:53 AM
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This reads, "I felt like I might need my knife." Otherwise you wouldn't have put it your waistband, would you? You felt comfortable "sneaking" your knife in, but not your gun? Otherwise you would have put it in a bag or purse or pocket and not the waistband. It wasn't there as a tool in other purpose than defensive just as the gun would have been. Alarm bells ringing softly in your head?

We take our chances in this world. Many are of the thought that being tried by twelve is more favorable than being prematurely carried by six.

Gun free zones are me free zones. I try to be there as seldomly as possible and I am never without an exit strategy and in anything other than an alert state of mind.
There are many places where a knife is allowed and a gun is not. I did not "sneak" it in. I never tried to hide it. No alarm bells going off at all.
As for the situation, I can see merit in all three situations. Thus the question. I wanted people to think, really think, not just react.
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:18 AM
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If you can't avoid the bad guy and can't get away, fight like an angry wolverine.
Even better...fight like an angry SPARTAN!
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:46 AM
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Smoke, we are talking about in crystal clear situations, but yet not a direct threat to us or our loved ones type of incidents...
The odds of you ever being in a situation that clear are still extremely rare, that’s one of the reasons that you almost never hear about permit holders intervening.

What I don’t like about these posts is that the OP posted a pretty ambiguous scenario and when people responded that they’d be hesitant to respond to something that ambiguous people (you among them) posit some pretty clear scenarios and conflate the two postulating a moral obligation to respond.

Even the examples you used require some thought, there’s no way I’m going to bail out of my car and start shooting at a moving target, especially not a car where the vehicle is going to soak up a lot of my rounds and still shield the occupant, on a residential street unless I have absolutely no other option.

In the robbery scenario, the actor has demonstrated an absolute willingness to kill; he is a direct threat to everyone in the room (except his compadres). When you look at it like that the response becomes self evident.

I have seen exactly one robbery in my life and it was over before I realized what I was seeing.
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:52 AM
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It looks like the "animals" were out of their cages at your zoo.
If there was a crowd, there would be people all around you. One of the rules of gun safety is know your target and what's beyond it. It sounds like a crowded and confusing situation. I'd pick C and try to get out of Dodge.
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:43 PM
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.................A couple days ago in Seattle, a pair of drunk off-duty fire fighters and the girlfriend of one of them started a fight with a homeless guy and used various means of assaulting him until he defended himself with a knife. Such situations can be uncertain. The three A-Hs got charged............
This is a good example of how appearances can be deceiving. If some concealed-carry do-gooder was to have come upon this altercation toward the end, they might have wrongly assumed that "the bum with the knife" was the aggressor, and the three firefighters & the girlfriend the hapless victims-- and promptly shot the poor guy just trying to keep himself from being kicked to death.
I heard this talked about on the news, and I hope they prosecute the **** out of the firefighters. Ditto for an altercation I heard about a while back where some drunken off-duty LEO's got into a big fight at a football game or somewhere. I think anyone in such a position has a duty to uphold certain standards of behavior-- and beating up a bum or getting into a drunken brawl don't cut the mustard.
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:50 PM
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I'm going to answer your ? with something that happened to a friend.He had his daughter with him in the car(loves his daughter more than you would believe possible).He was at a bank atm after hrs.getting some $$.Two guys appeared & said to give them his $$.My friend is a fantastic martial artist...he put his $$ in his pocket & told them to come & get it! They tried....then ran! He told me...Jim...I got in my car....daughter was crying....he started shaking....what IF they had guns & started shooting....what if my baby got hurt!! You had your daughter with you....smart thing to do is LEAVE.....you alone & it's your call....you had your baby(no matter how old she gets she will always be your baby)with you....
Jim
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:04 PM
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If someone turn around a corner and see a guy holding another guy at gunpoint and think "hmmm I should grab my gun and join these fellas" than that person is idiot enough to be cleansed from the gene pool!
I don't think "idiot" is the right word here. I think "naive" is better. There was a time when people wanted to help other people. So, the instinct is to stop the fight, then figure out what's going on. Even if the guy with the knife turns out to be the defender, it's better to stop him before he kills someone. That will have long term legal and psychological ramifications.

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Two days ago in my neighborhood, about 3 miles away from my home...

Last month in a gang infested nearby town...

I say luckily because a few months ago next door 99 cents store...
Man, I'm glad I don't live near you. It sounds like a war zone.


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What if NO DOUBT something bad is going on but yet it is not direct threat to us.
This is not a simple answer. It will depend on the situation.
Can I end it with little or no danger to myself?
If I would have to shoot, is the line between me and the target, and beyond, clear?
What if I miss?

If I get injured or killed, that will have lasting effects to my family.

These "what if" scenarios are good to ask, but difficult to answer. It's good to think about these because it helps us prepare for situations just like the OP. It helps us develop the combat mindset. That keeps us thinking so, when the bad guy is waving his gun around, we already have a plan, know the layout of the area and where we can go.

Alas, there is no pat answer to them. Too many variables to resolve every possibility.
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:27 PM
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how about option D
hand on gun in cover while you send your loved ones out of the hot zone, making your oun egress after they are clear and safe
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:31 PM
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Smoke offers a great example, you never know the relationships in what appears to be an assault or how those folks are going to react when you intercede to "help." It can be problematic for the guys with the shiny badges and blue uniforms interceding in these events. But it has been many years since I wore a badge so my choice would be to butt out unless, and until, they bring the argument to me.
*
Must be a long time ago, as every state with which I am familiar has a mandatory arrest law and has had it for years. Illinois enacted its in the late 70s, for example.
Private citizens do not "press charges" - the police get involved somehow, they make a report, and the lawfully elected or appointed prosecuting attorney makes the filing decision.
*
Back on point: each and every one of us who has the lawful ability to carry has the non-discretionary obligation to know, to an utter certainty, where we can or cannot lawfully carry. I am lucky enough to be in Washington, where the list of prohibited places is short and is listed in one specific statute (except the statute about the Gorge, buried in an odd place, but anyone who goes the Gorge is too stupid to worry about anyway and I cannot conceive of a reason I would ever go there). I can't even think of the last time I was in a prohibited location other than a courtroom.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:47 PM
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*
Must be a long time ago, as every state with which I am familiar has a mandatory arrest law and has had it for years. Illinois enacted its in the late 70s, for example.
My fault for being unclear, the guy was arrested.

They came to get statements from us and told us the woman refused to press charges (their words) I only mentioned the fact that she failed to press charges in reference to the fact that even after he beat the hell out of her she still backed him and like would have if I had pepper sprayed the guy.

Bottom line I'm not jumping in the middle of a fight between two people I don't know because they'll both turn on me.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:59 PM
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Just like your decision to carry concealed, this is a very personal decision that only you can make! A suggested read would be THE DANGERS OF INTERVENTION by Evan Marshall under the Commentary at StoppingPower.net
I am glad things turned out well for you and your family.
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