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03-27-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badge
Really? You see something or know something everyone else doesn't friend? Been there have you? It's ignorant statements like the ones your just espoused that end up causing civil disturbances where MORE folks end up being injured or killed. If they did not follow the law or departmental policy then I am quite sure they will be dealt with accordingly.
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My statement regarded how the scene seemed to me. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
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03-27-2014, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
I know that NM DPS academy has CIT, and I'd be stunned if APD's didn't as well.
BTW, it looks like Las Cruces PD has its own academy as well. Shows what I know.
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It can be hard to keep up on these things, especially if there may not be a state (POST) standard requiring something.
CA was supposedly on the leading edge of this CIT topic several years ago, and I know that it had started to filter down to being adopted by smaller agencies when I retired 5 years ago. Naturally, the larger agencies seemingly had a head start on it, with SFPD & SJPD being discussed for their programs in the beginning years.
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03-28-2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
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I'd say those boys probably have some splanin to do. Probably justified in the intial shooting (considering the 21 foot rule). I think they may be in doo doo for the bean bags and dog. Plus not rendering immediate aid. Certainly a civil suit probably pending.
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03-28-2014, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLYDE
Certainly a civil suit probably pending.
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Who will file it?
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03-28-2014, 08:09 PM
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FWIW, APD held off on identifying Mr. Boyd for a week, because they couldn't find a next of kin to notify.
Don't all rush forward at once . . .
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03-29-2014, 08:41 AM
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the man should have complied with LEO, but when liying there motionless i dont think the dog should be let go to chew on the mans leg
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03-31-2014, 11:22 PM
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Homeless guy camped out in an undeveloped recreation area for a number of weeks.
Not a model citizen.
A whole lot of justification going on in this thread.
6 shots in the back of a man turning around to walk away.
A few of the cowboys in that video shouldn't be walking around as free men.
IMHO.......
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04-01-2014, 09:48 AM
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From what I have seen on the News here, it looks to be getting a bit "messy" out there against the APD.
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04-01-2014, 10:03 AM
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04-01-2014, 02:13 PM
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Apparently they knew who and what they were dealing with.
My best guess....homeless person not current on his meds and not fully in control of his mental state.
Could have been as simple as getting a health care worker out there and supplying the guy with his meds and giving the meds time to work.
Problem goes beyond the bad shooting to management, competence and how the department perceives its mission.
Apparently the grown ups were busy polishing their buttons, fondling their egos or on siesta.
Last edited by Barefootdog; 04-01-2014 at 02:21 PM.
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04-01-2014, 02:33 PM
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I recall an object lesson in a Hostage Negotiation course that may be of interest.
Seems there was a gent who was 'known to police' who created a barricade situation. Seems to have been a guy with medication issues. After a prolonged period, the old chief (known him for years) rolled up to his front door and yelled for him to come out without the gun. He came out, threw an arm around the Chief and called out that "Here's a real Police"!
Time passed, another incident, the chief rolled up, walked to the front door and got shot & killed.
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04-02-2014, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff
Who will file it?
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The ACLU? With all the coverage, they'll likely find a next of kin eventually. Also, with APD getting involved in several shootings lately, it may be used as part of a class-action suit. Police shootings aren't all that common, many cities go years without having them, Albuquerque has had three in the past three weeks.
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04-02-2014, 03:52 PM
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Yeah, I guess some "do good" organization could take up the case, but are they allowed to file if they don't find some kin?
With a class of only three, I don't think the tort lawyers are going to take that case.
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04-02-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff
Yeah, I guess some "do good" organization could take up the case, but are they allowed to file if they don't find some kin?
With a class of only three, I don't think the tort lawyers are going to take that case.
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Playing devil's advocate here, but they could make it a "use of force" thing and go after the department on a whole slew of things. As Erich pointed out, it looks like they're being less than transparent with the protests.
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04-02-2014, 06:24 PM
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I'm not saying that the police shouldn't be held accountable. I'm just saying that I don't think it's going to happen.
The next sentence would have been political. I can't afford any more points on my forum license so, I'll stop here.
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04-03-2014, 10:42 AM
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Hey, the guy's brother showed up on TV yesterday . . . I'm sure my learned friends in the tort bar are aware of the case.
And Fastbolt? Looks like 27% of APD officers have CIT training . . . but that they did not call the crisis response people or the department's contracted psychologist to the scene.
http://www.abqjournal.com/378251/new...l-illness.html
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Last edited by Erich; 04-03-2014 at 10:49 AM.
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04-03-2014, 11:16 AM
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Erich, thanks for sharing those pictures, makes it real.
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04-03-2014, 11:32 AM
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My 2 cents. I'm tired of paying taxes for officers to have to put up with the macho man criminals who practice and enjoy giving resistance to follow simple orders that are rightfiully given by those who are trained and paid to uphold the law.. Too bad for the bad guy, but we all know what gun safety is and I don't think it smart to argue with someone(or more) in law enforcement who has a gun pointing in my direction.
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04-03-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waywatcher
Erich, thanks for sharing those pictures, makes it real.
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My pleasure - I'm glad to hear they were of interest. I found them interesting, but that doesn't necessarily mean anyone else would.
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04-03-2014, 12:41 PM
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A forum full of LEO's.
Cop bashing allowed?
My comment: further training required.
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04-03-2014, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpowder30
My 2 cents. I'm tired of paying taxes for officers to have to put up with the macho man criminals who practice and enjoy giving resistance to follow simple orders that are rightfiully given by those who are trained and paid to uphold the law.. Too bad for the bad guy, but we all know what gun safety is and I don't think it smart to argue with someone(or more) in law enforcement who has a gun pointing in my direction.
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...so let me get this right....some guy makes himself a pain in the *** by camping in a no camping area, shouts and blows his mouth off in a useless/powerless display of dumb and refuses to lie down on the ground....so its OK to put 6 rounds in his back when he turns to walk away?
Is that really the America you want for your children and your childrens' children?
And for what its worth. I conceal carry everyday, everywhere.
Most people think I'm an ultra conservative old fart.
I disagree. I seldom fart but when i do they smell of Elderberry.
Last edited by Barefootdog; 04-03-2014 at 01:05 PM.
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04-03-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
Hey, the guy's brother showed up on TV yesterday . . . I'm sure my learned friends in the tort bar are aware of the case.
And Fastbolt? Looks like 27% of APD officers have CIT training . . . but that they did not call the crisis response people or the department's contracted psychologist to the scene.
Crisis unit not deployed to Boyd standoff | Albuquerque Journal News
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Thanks.
If the article has correct info, it appears one of the officers who responded to the incident had received the basic CIT training, but until the feds conclude their investigation the city agency probably can't release any specifics of that officer's involvement and actions during the incident.
Also looks like they're going to be making some expanded CIT training standard for all cadets at their academy beginning with the current one?
At some point it will be announced why the decision had been made to dispatch their "repeat offender program" personnel instead of SWAT (which would have meant CNT, and presumably at least one of the CIT detectives on their CNT). Also, why the CNT/CIT people weren't sent during the 5 hours of the incident, involving an armed person (knives) reportedly suffering from mental health issues and involved in a standoff with their officers, is undoubtedly being addressed.
Not only are the actions of the officers involved being closely scrutinized, but the agency's Policies & Procedures (especially involving High-Liability incidents), "best practices", supervision & management during this crisis incident are likely also being intensely scrutinized.
I have family with a home in that area, and obviously the emotional reaction to the tragic incident is running high for those who have a connection to the area.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 04-03-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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04-03-2014, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilike9mm
Cop bashing allowed?
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"Cop bashing" is not allowed, but I don't see that here.
What I see is a situation being discussed. If someone were to say, "See all cops are evil" that's cop bashing. In this case, saying, "I think this could have been handled differently. Here's what I would have expected..." is discussing the situation presented.
I don't see this as cop bashing, but that's just my opinion. I've been wrong before.
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04-03-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff
"Cop bashing" is not allowed, but I don't see that here.
What I see is a situation being discussed. If someone were to say, "See all cops are evil" that's cop bashing. In this case, saying, "I think this could have been handled differently. Here's what I would have expected..." is discussing the situation presented.
I don't see this as cop bashing, but that's just my opinion. I've been wrong before.
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I haven't seen it cross over to 'bashing,' just calls for more training for front-line officers and more responsibility taken on the part of the '"In Charge" officers (read "Brass").
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04-03-2014, 11:12 PM
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Reopen the insane asylums. Keep people like this man off the street. I ve had the misfortune of dealing with mental patients who are beyond help. Meds ain't even going to begin to fix them. Locked away is the only way to protect others. Sure Cops, Fire, EMS, Emergency Room Nurses need more training in dealing with folks like these... enough of us get hurt by them every year.
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04-04-2014, 03:59 AM
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I see this as a possibly mentally ill homeless person being pushed farther than necessary to accomplish an arrest. IMHO there was no need to kill him. I have watched the video numerous times and it appeared that he was going to come down BEFORE they tossed the flash-bang devise and released the dog on him. Why they felt the need to throw the Flash-Bang and let the dog go at him if he demonstrated willingness to comply is just something I have not been able to get over.
That said, at the point the Officer shot him multiple times he also appeared to turn and start kneeling to comply to their demand to get on the ground. What was the purpose of shooting him 6 times at that point? He was NOT attacking them, and at that moment posed no threat to the Officers.
If this guy was not a homeless man but a Tourist or Hiker I think the outrage would be even worse especially given the PD's recent history on matters like this. This is not a case of Cop Bashing, simply a case of either poor training, poor discipline or poor judgement on the part of APD. Personally I find it appalling that the Chief originally ruled the shooting "justifiable" and as an outsider I think this PD needs a lot of revamping. According to what I have seen and heard from Locals, I'm certainly not alone.
I am not a LEO, but many in my Family and close circle of friends currently are or have been. I have the utmost respect for LEO's but these guys were (at least IMHO) way out of line and I hope they pay the Piper. That's how I see it from here.
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04-04-2014, 01:57 PM
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There's another big protest scheduled for this afternoon. They're closing the courts and DA's office early "for safety". As far as I know my office (right across the street from the copshop) will remain open.
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04-04-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redneckemt
Reopen the insane asylums. Keep people like this man off the street. I ve had the misfortune of dealing with mental patients who are beyond help. Meds ain't even going to begin to fix them. Locked away is the only way to protect others. Sure Cops, Fire, EMS, Emergency Room Nurses need more training in dealing with folks like these... enough of us get hurt by them every year.
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In addition, our societies over-dependancy on psychotropic pharmacuticals is INSANE!! Many folks who have psychiatric issues do not like the side effects of the drugs that stabilize them (typically makes them "feel like a zombie").
My ex wife is a manic depressant (bipolar disorder), who refuses to take her meds.... while they help her out of deep depression, they also suppress her "high" when she is happy.... so she stays off the (legal) drugs, off the docs, out of control....
My current wife is a Pharmacologist, and she has helped me to see just how dangerous these drugs are.... both of us HATE medicine, and are very skeptical of them naturally.... her background gives us the ability to intelligently discuss treatments with our docs, and understand why we may need a medication. I wish more medical folks would take advantage of those in pharmacological careers in hiring them as patient advisors, so that someone can explain how your medication works and help patients make an informed decision on chemicals introduced into their body.....
Possibly, had this individual had education on his meds, (and also the threat to be medically committed if he failed to control himself) this may have been avoided.
Understand that I am not saying the situation was handled properly.... we don't yet have facts to base that on, but based on the limited evidence, it sure looks like a bit heavy handed response no?
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04-05-2014, 10:27 PM
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As a former LEO, let me state that I am a fan of 99% of all LEO. But, it seems to me that they got their escalation of force a little out of whack, literally.
Considering that the LEO were a heavily armed, paramilitary unit, I think they should have hit him with the non-lethal shotgun rounds before they filled him with lead, instead of the other way around.
Just saying
Last edited by Karnivore; 04-05-2014 at 10:34 PM.
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04-10-2014, 10:28 AM
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According to the sources of local TV news, the FBI is looking at charging the officer who shot: Sources: FBI targeting APD Officer Keith Sandy | KOB.com
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04-10-2014, 12:25 PM
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This just happened
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
APRIL 10, 2014
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RELEASES INVESTIGATIVE FINDINGS ON THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT ALBUQUERQUE – Following a comprehensive investigation, the Justice Department today announced its findings that the Albuquerque Police Department (APD) has engaged in a pattern or practice of excessive force that violates the Constitution and federal law. The Justice Department delivered a letter setting forth these findings to Albuquerque Mayor Richard J. Berry and Police Chief Gorden Eden this morning.
The investigation was launched on November 27, 2012, and conducted jointly by the Civil Rights Division and the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of New Mexico. The investigation examined whether APD engages in an unconstitutional pattern or practice of excessive force, including deadly force, as well as the cause of any pattern or practice of a violation of the law. This investigation did not assess whether any conduct violated criminal laws. Specific cases have been referred to the Criminal Section of the Civil Rights Division for consideration.
The Justice Department found reasonable cause to believe that APD engages in a pattern or practice of excessive force in violation of the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution. The Department specifically found three patterns of excessive force:
· APD officers too frequently use deadly force against people who pose a minimal threat and in situations where the conduct of the officers heightens the danger and contributes to the need to use force;
· APD officers use less lethal force, including electronic controlled weapons, on people who are passively resisting, non-threatening, observably unable to comply with orders, or pose only a minimal threat to the officers; and
· Encounters between APD officers and persons with mental illness and in crisis too frequently result in a use of force or a higher level of force than necessary.
The Justice Department also found systemic deficiencies of the APD, which contribute to these three patterns, including: deficient policies, failed accountability systems, inadequate training, inadequate supervision, ineffective systems of investigation and adjudication, the absence of a culture of community policing, and a lack of sufficient civilian oversight.
The Department’s investigation involved an in-depth review of APD documents, as well as extensive community engagement. The Department reviewed thousands of pages of documents, including written policies and procedures, internal reports, data, video footage, and investigative files. Department attorneys and investigators, assisted by policing experts, also conducted interviews with APD officers, supervisors and command staff, city officials; and hundreds of interviews with community members and local advocates.
“We are very concerned by the results of our investigation and look forward to working with the City of Albuquerque to develop a set of robust and durable reforms,” said Jocelyn Samuels, Acting Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights. “Our work to assist police departments around the nation is intended to advance important principles. Holding police accountable for Constitutional practices improves public confidence, promotes public safety and makes the job of providing police services safer, easier and more effective. Public trust has been broken in Albuquerque, but it can be repaired through this process.”
“Today’s groundbreaking announcement marks a critical milestone in addressing problems that have plagued our community and the Albuquerque Police Department for years,” said Damon Martinez, Acting U.S. Attorney for the District of New Mexico. “These findings come at a unique time for the City and the Albuquerque Police Department, and provide a blueprint for changing the culture of the Albuquerque Police Department and for rebuilding broken relationships with the community it serves. Although there are difficult and systemic issues to resolve, we embrace these challenges and are very optimistic for the future of the Albuquerque Police Department.”
The Justice Department looks forward to continued cooperation with the City and Albuquerque Police Department to timely resolve these findings under mutually agreeable terms that will provide accountability to the public and accomplish the remedial measures within a fixed period of time.
The full report can be found at Civil Rights Division Special Litigation Section Cases Page and The United States Department of Justice, United States Attorney's Office, District of New Mexico Project Safe Childhood. For more information about the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division, please visit www.justice.gov/crt/ Any comments or concerns regarding the report can be directed to at [email protected] or 1-877-218-5228.
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Sorry to keep updating this, but folks had expressed an interest in the development of this situation.
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04-10-2014, 01:33 PM
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This all happened in my state, a couple hours north of my city. These events have sparked aggressive protesting between the university students and the police, a few friends of mine had their entire housing halls pepper sprayed and evacuated. I'm not sure as the status yet but many of the citizens of Albuquerque have been concerned with the APD overuse of deadly force.
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04-10-2014, 01:37 PM
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No apology necessary Erich. I appreciate the updates.
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04-10-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
Sorry to keep updating this, but folks had expressed an interest in the development of this situation.
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Thanks.
I imagine it'll prove to be a time of rapid change and evolution for the PD.
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04-10-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt
I imagine it'll prove to be a time of rapid change and evolution for the PD.
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It is my hope that this "rapid change" is only for that one department. I sincerely hope this doesn't turn into a knee jerk, blanket attempt at improving every agency across the nation. Those types of actions rarely improve things. They usually handcuff departments and limit their ability to respond to the real bad guys.
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04-10-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff
It is my hope that this "rapid change" is only for that one department. I sincerely hope this doesn't turn into a knee jerk, blanket attempt at improving every agency across the nation. Those types of actions rarely improve things. They usually handcuff departments and limit their ability to respond to the real bad guys.
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Scattered piecemeal attempts at changing & directing the activities and practices of various agencies across the country has been an ongoing effort for some years. Having a federal master placed in charge, trying to conform to court orders, civilian oversight committees, etc. It's not like it's going to be some earth-shaking new effort.
I'd suspect that recommendations to bring APD back into line with how fed, state & local opinions best feel the agency can operate to create and follow "best practices", adopt new policies/procedures, improve training, etc, to avoid future civil rights problems ... and having to deal with whatever criminal investigations and prosecutions may occur for any individual officers ... will have a significant impact on the agency.
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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
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04-11-2014, 09:23 AM
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It all comes down to that double-edged sword of officer discretion. As mentioned before, the first two officers on the scene (one also wearing a lapel cam in a separate video) were justified to shoot, but made what should have been a smart decision; they drew their weapons, backed up, and called for additional resources to avoid bloodshed. They knew the difference between could shoot and should shoot. It appears the officer in the video we've seen didn't know what either meant. (My observations, may the truth come out either way)
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Just the opinion of a kid
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04-11-2014, 12:50 PM
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Absent Comrade
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I haven`t read all the posts, haven`t seen other videos than what was posted and do know all the usual comebacks of you werent there etc. What I did see is a man shot in the back already down and out. Repeatedly. When push comes to shove, if some defense excuse as "well it happened because we werent trained right, or not enough," To me that is zero excuse. It came down to personnal matter of morals, not department training whether trained by the SS or salvation army.
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04-13-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb1946
What I read was that the man had a known history of mental illness and violence towards police, and had a knife. The video didn't have enough detail to show what happened.
Calling it " Crazy Man with knife" shot by police makes it sound a little
different.
As for a lot of shots, you have several cops armed with modern repeating weapons and trained to shoot until the threat is removed. Same as we try for. The one shot and done is only on TV, and walking up to a person armed with a knife and taking it requires lots of practice, and a good choreographer, like on Walker, Texas Ranger. Cops carry guns to avoid knives.
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Actually in this great country of ours the one shot and done only applies to civilians.......
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04-14-2014, 04:51 PM
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Absent Comrade
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Others beware. Get your grazing permit.
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