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Old 03-24-2014, 11:30 PM
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Default Camper shot by police.

Camper shot by police. I'm having difficulty understanding why.

Police helmet cam: Camper turning from officers when shot

What are your thoughts on this?
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:48 AM
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Camper shot by police. I'm having difficulty understanding why.

Police helmet cam: Camper turning from officers when shot

What are your thoughts on this?
I had to go to a different link to watch the video. I'm thinking that first puff of dust was an accidental discharge from the camper then in the video I watched they blurred him out so I can't tell what really happened next other than the fact he took several rounds from the officers. It's hard to tell because the video quality is so poor. EDIT - found a better video and description of the events. The first puff of dust is a flash-bang grenade according to the reporter. Why they felt the need to set that off is beyond me, especially when it appears he is gathering his stuff to leave with the officers. Unless I'm missing something he doesn't appear to be a lethal threat. Especially enough so to warrant a taser, bean bag rounds and the fatal rounds he took.

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Old 03-25-2014, 01:11 AM
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looked like he had a knife in his left hand.... the poof was a distraction round, probably from that shotgun, as it looked pretty small.... looks like they felt a threat (argumentative, knife) and decided to move on it..... seemed like a lot of fire poured into one dude with a blade, but not being there, it is tough to say.....
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:20 AM
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Mayor Berry talks about the Foothills Shooting
Not a good day for anyone.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:32 AM
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There is an old adage, never bring a knife to a gun fight, and he brought 2 of them. Turning away is one way of winding up to through a knife. Vests do not stop edged weapons. If he was intent on giving up he would not have armed himself with the edged weapons.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:51 AM
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looked like he had a knife in his left hand.... the poof was a distraction round, probably from that shotgun, as it looked pretty small.... looks like they felt a threat (argumentative, knife) and decided to move on it..... seemed like a lot of fire poured into one dude with a blade, but not being there, it is tough to say.....
I wont debate the shooting as I was not there but what exactly is argumentative about someone armed with an edged weapon? Perhaps you could enlighten me friend.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:39 AM
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All too often people like to weigh in absent all the facts. This video is not clear and it's impossible to tell what the bad guy was doing before he was shot. A thorough investigation will reveal all the facts and IF there was any wrong doing on the part of LE, it will be dealt with. For me it's too early to offer an opinion, I was not there.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:39 AM
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Even videos don't always tell the truth. I watched a video where it APPEARED that a cop shot a man in the back for no reason as he was lowering the rifle he was carrying to the ground. A closer look at the video in slow motion combined with a second video from a different angle show that while he WAS lowering the rifle to the ground with his left hand, he was DRAWING a handgun from the small of his back to shoot the officer in front of him.

Just sayin' you can't always believe what you see.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:50 AM
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There's a good illustration of when several LEO with weapons drawn say get on the ground, the smart thing to do is to get on the ground and fight about it in front of a judge another day.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:32 AM
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What I read was that the man had a known history of mental illness and violence towards police, and had a knife. The video didn't have enough detail to show what happened.

Calling it " Crazy Man with knife" shot by police makes it sound a little
different.

As for a lot of shots, you have several cops armed with modern repeating weapons and trained to shoot until the threat is removed. Same as we try for. The one shot and done is only on TV, and walking up to a person armed with a knife and taking it requires lots of practice, and a good choreographer, like on Walker, Texas Ranger. Cops carry guns to avoid knives.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:28 PM
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About 4 miles south of my house. A lot of people on both sides of the aisle really expressing concern over that here locally.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:53 PM
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It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some of the same folks who are all too ready to "convict" someone based upon a single perspective and camera angle in a LE incident, may be the same folks who demand 30 different camera angles in order to arrive at some "decision" in a disputed sporting event call.

Different angles can present different perspectives, and many of them may tell a different part of the story.

Let the investigation work itself out ...
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:21 PM
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Normally I would agree with that Fastbolt, but not this time.

I don't need another camera angle to see that the guy was lying on the ground, not moving, when he was shot three times with a bean bag, then attacked by a dog. Heck, even the dog didn't see the point.
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:59 PM
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If it were that easy to arrive at a correct decision, based upon a short segment of video, out of what's been described as an hours long standoff (and other video perhaps not yet, or fully, released to the public), there wouldn't be any need for an investigation ... but that's not how things work.

Having been involved in similar cases of illegal trespassers/campers in some remote and hard-to-reach areas, and having been called upon to assist in others, sometimes the greater whole of the facts, and even critical facts, aren't easily discerned until the incident has been controlled.

Trespassers, illegal campers, recluses, etc can present some incredibly volatile, unpredictable and dangerous threats. People have died trying to deal with such persons and situations.

I can tell you that finding some bomb making materials hidden in a difficult-to-reach, camouflaged shelter can make you reassess how fortunate you were in your approach and entry into the site, as well as pause to reconsider the attention you're going to pay to your planned egress.

"Seeing is believing" doesn't always work out how everyone might expect, or wish, and having digital footage available can still only provide images from the perspective of the person mounting the camera. I wouldn't be at all surprised if another camera mounted on one of the closer officers might not have yielded a different perspective than that seen in the linked video.

The investigation is going to obviously include the video, as well as the observations/statements and evidence collected.

I'd not try to draw some conclusion of the timed usage of the less lethal/impact weapon (presuming it was within policy and allowed by their force matrix or continuum) ... nor would I try to discern some supposition or meaning from the dog's demeanor.

You can bet there's going to be intense scrutiny over the entire set of circumstances and actions leading up to the final moments. As well there should be.

Let's wait and see what there is to learn that hasn't yet been released (or understood).

Tragic, nasty situation. No way around it.
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:20 PM
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Don't know all the facts but I don't understand the need to shoot the guy when they shot him. Looked like 5 or 6 well armed cops standing at a distance from a guy with the knife. Looked like the guy was walking away when first shot fired. Three shots and dog after the guy was down and maybe out of it looked unnecessary.

Need more info but I suspect the shooting will be justified since the guy had a couple of knives. I have my doubts and would have been more afraid of a rock than a knife at that distance.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:33 PM
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I agree that we should not draw conclusions until the whole investigation is done. I'm not sure what prompted the first shots, he may have seen something that we didn't.

I just don't understand what shooting him with bean bags and sending the dog was supposed to accomplish. I'm not drawing a conclusion, just trying to understand what the purpose was.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:08 PM
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There is a helmet cam from the first responding officer. I will say that the the initial officer on scene would have been no question about it justified to take the shot. The shot in the linked video was questionable, but I wasn't there and with adrenaline pumping, any sudden move looks dangerous. I would also point out that there is a short burst before the officer who's pov we are seeing from engages. It appears the K-9 handler let off the first rounds, and the pov officer trusted his buddies judgment and eliminated the threat.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:26 PM
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OK, I just saw another angle that seems to be from earlier in the day. That guy was clearly threatening the officers in this one. At one point he said he was going to hunt one of them down and kill him.

I see why things were tense in the helmet cam video.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:51 PM
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I just love the way the media described this guy-- "Camper"

My guess is that a homeless mentally ill man threatening police with knife is probably a lot closer to reality.

I don't know if the situation required shooting the guy, and no one approves of killing an idiot if it can be prevented, but if you are on a weekend campout and a cop asks you to put down the knife in your hand... might be a good idea to say ok.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:29 PM
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Like others have said I wasn't there either. Biggest thing here is the lesson that right or wrong you need to comply. I don't know what went on and won't pass judgment on anyone but why didn't they just let the dog go , or were they afraid he would hurt the dog being he had two knives and if the dog got killed they would still be in the same or escalated situation, and or why didn't they just use the less then lethal force weapons they had at hand. There seemed to be plenty of room between them and the so called camper. Like I said all he needed to do to end things was to comply. We will see what the investigation has to say about it when more information is released if it is.

Now I just saw another video and the "camper" threatened the LE with death , but at the end where the shooting takes place they blacked out the video.

http://video.abqjournal.com/031614-F...7#.UzI8ya1OXIV
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:02 AM
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Looks like the punishment handed out was a bit much for the threat he posed. I don't know why they didn't just shoot him with the bean bag gun first or let the Dog handle the matter, they were far enough away that the small knife he was holding was not much of a threat to a bunch of LEO's with Automatic Weapons and there would have been more than time to lace him like one LEO did if need be. Wouldn't be surprised if at least one LEO wasn't brought up on charges. Please keep us posted.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:10 PM
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Big old march here last night:

Hundreds protest police shooting of homeless man | ABQJournal Online

And there was just another fatal police shooting here last night . . . people are worked up.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:19 PM
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About 4 miles south of my house. A lot of people on both sides of the aisle really expressing concern over that here locally.
Just read an article on another source that the Police Chief ruled the shooting "justified" - guess he saw another video. Anyway I read that there are wide spread corruption allegations pending against the PD and there is supposed to be an organized protest tomorrow. According to the article I read one of the Officers involved was fired by the ASP and hired as a civilian employee and not supposed to be a LEO at all. It went on to say he worked his way into the ROPE Division as a full LEO anyway. We'll see if it hits the evening news.............
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:19 PM
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I wont debate the shooting as I was not there but what exactly is argumentative about someone armed with an edged weapon? Perhaps you could enlighten me friend.
Maybe my choice of words was incorrect..... what I meant by (argumentative, knife) was that he was previously being a bit argumentative, and later displayed a knife. I in no way meant to imply that he was acting threatening with the knife.... (it did not look so to my monday am quarterback eyes at least).

Now, I am no LEO, but I would assume that if I were being interviewed by one and was being argumentative, and afterwards displayed an edged weapon, the officers perception of me would likely change from not a threat/jerk/argumentative/ to a "potential threat" perception no?

Im not trying to be a smart alec, I really have always assumed when dealing with LEO the more comfortable I make them, the better it will go for both of us, regardless of their actions.... is this not usually true? Of course, with the low quality film, we have no way of knowing if the victims intent was to get rid of the knife, but with him being a hard case before hand, I can see why the officers may have reacted a bit more harshly than if he would have just put his hands up and followed their instruction.

I am not trying to determine right or wrong here, I can honestly see this both ways.... actually I tend to lean towards overkill on the officers part, but am trying hard to suppress my own feelings for objectivity's sake.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:27 PM
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Just read an article on another source that the Police Chief ruled the shooting "justified" - guess he saw another video.
Can't comment on anything else you mention, but the Mayor criticized the new (two or three weeks on the job) Chief for so quickly saying it was justified, and the Chief clarified that he had been blindsided by a question and spoke in less cautious terms than he'd intended (this was pretty widely reported here on Monday) at this early stage. Here's a link to that story (you'll have to answer an advertising question to view it) in the local paper:

http://www.abqjournal.com/373876/new...ettling-2.html
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:40 PM
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Thanks and please keep us posted.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:41 PM
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I still don't get why they threw the flashbang. It appears that the situation had begun to de-escalate. I would really like to hear the officer on the ground perspectives on the matter. One article claims the "camper" says "please don't hurt me anymore, I can't move", but I never heard that on the video. I really hope that the multiple investigations into this shooting come to an agreement on what actually happened. May Justice be served.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:34 PM
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Could the flash-bang have been deployed without warning the other police officers who though it was a shot, thus causing them to engage? I'm not jumping on the "...police acted stupidly..." bandwagon, but...

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Old 03-26-2014, 04:38 PM
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It's a good thought elm_creek_smith, but you can hear them give the command to launch it.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:59 PM
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Feds are coming into it (maybe criminally) . . . along with our AG (who just happens to be running for governor):

APD foothills shooting now subject of federal criminal investigation | Albuquerque News & Weather | Abq, Rio Rancho, Santa Fe, NM | krqe.com

Attorney general to investigate Albuquerque police shootings<o></o> | KOB.com
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:43 AM
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Good. That was a straight up execution. Those fellows were looking for the first excuse to open fire on that mentally ill man. The flash bang was used, it seems, to provoke some sort of reflexive reaction from the guy that would "justify" taking him out.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:09 AM
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AND all this happened while the APD KNEW that they were wearing live video cameras!!!
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:19 AM
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AND all this happened while the APD KNEW that they were wearing live video cameras!!!
Pretty brazen, isn't it?
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:25 AM
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Well, I'm certainly a fan of lapel cams - and LEOs will tell you that they very often protect them from false claims of abuse, etc. But, any lawyer who's worked with them can tell you they have their limitations (e.g., things may appear one way from one cam, but another cam will prove beyond any doubt that things were the complete opposite of that). While I'm personally troubled by the lapel video in this case, I recognize that things are a lot more complicated than they might first appear, so I'm willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt until investigations take their proper course.

Anytime a human life is taken, there should be a careful examination of what happened. I know a guy who actually witnessed the shooting at issue in this thread and his account, together with the video, makes me feel that it's good there's a lot of particular attention being given.

As popular as it's gotten to be around town to rail on APD, I'd note that I've had some mighty good interactions with APD officers over the years. However, LEOs I know from other agencies have told me troubling things that give me concern that there might be an institutional mindset problem when things go pear-shaped - and that might be backed up by the somewhat remarkable number of shootings they have had over the last few years. Again, I'm glad that the city administration and new chief are giving it real attention, and, I suppose, that others outside the system will be "checking their work."

Pity about Mr. Boyd - I can't help but think that the right person saying the right things could have diffused the situation and resolved it without event at the very get-go, with no guns/knives ever having been drawn. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. God bless everyone involved - it must be pretty awful.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:30 AM
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From what I read on another forum this guy wasn't a camper he was a homeless man with a history of violence. He once punched a female cop in the face and another time attacked a fellow homeless man at the shelter with a knife

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Old 03-27-2014, 10:40 AM
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All true, Arik.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:42 AM
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Well, I'm certainly a fan of lapel cams - and LEOs will tell you that they very often protect them from false claims of abuse, etc. But, any lawyer who's worked with them can tell you they have their limitations (e.g., things may appear one way from one cam, but another cam will prove beyond any doubt that things were the complete opposite of that). While I'm personally troubled by the lapel video in this case, I recognize that things are a lot more complicated than they might first appear, so I'm willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt until investigations take their proper course.

Anytime a human life is taken, there should be a careful examination of what happened. I know a guy who actually witnessed the shooting at issue in this thread and his account, together with the video, makes me feel that it's good there's a lot of particular attention being given.

As popular as it's gotten to be around town to rail on APD, I'd note that I've had some mighty good interactions with APD officers over the years. However, LEOs I know from other agencies have told me troubling things that give me concern that there might be an institutional mindset problem when things go pear-shaped - and that might be backed up by the somewhat remarkable number of shootings they have had over the last few years. Again, I'm glad that the city administration and new chief are giving it real attention, and, I suppose, that others outside the system will be "checking their work."

Pity about Mr. Boyd - I can't help but think that the right person saying the right things could have diffused the situation and resolved it without event at the very get-go, with no guns/knives ever having been drawn. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. God bless everyone involved - it must be pretty awful.
I wonder how Buddy Ebson would have fared if these guys came on him instead of Barney. Andy.Griffith-S02E06-Opies Hobo Friend - Video Dailymotion
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:52 AM
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I wonder how Buddy Ebson would have fared if these guys came on him instead of Barney. Andy.Griffith-S02E06-Opies Hobo Friend - Video Dailymotion
In this day and age, Barney's got the right instincts and Andy seems a fool. My how things have changed...
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:01 PM
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It's interesting that you'd bring that up: the respective policing styles of Andy and Barney have featured in a lot of conversations I've had with colleagues lately.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:19 PM
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It's interesting that you'd bring that up: the respective policing styles of Andy and Barney have featured in a lot of conversations I've had with colleagues lately.
What's the general sentiment been?
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:40 PM
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Hmm. Insightful question, Hapworth - I hadn't really considered it, but there has been a general consensus, whether in talking to defense lawyers, prosecutors, other sorts of lawyers, LEOs, barbers, folks on the bus, etc.

Honestly, the thing that keeps getting mentioned is what others talking to me have often referred to as moral justification for shootings (as opposed to legal justification). If I can describe what I'm hearing from them, it's that there needs to be less of an immediate movement toward the use of lethal force and more toward a sort of caring individualized involvement to de-escalate bad situations.

I don't know if this is realistic: I'm certain police forces give training in this sort of thing. However, I'd note that APD - a large police force in our small state - does have its own academy, and it could be that it's vectored off from what other LE agencies (who all pretty much use the state academy for certification) are doing. (This is backed up by the fact that I know LEOs from nearby agencies who've long expressed dismay over what they perceive to be an institutional attitude problem with APD - honestly, the first time I really ever heard anything I took seriously along these lines was from LEOs from neighboring agencies.)

I have seen this sort of discussion before in criminal defense blogs - not specifically directed at APD but at the "warrior cop" meme that's come under such wide criticism lately. What's interesting to me is that I'm hearing it so much now from ordinary people here in Albuquerque, people who customarily take a "law and order" perspective on things.

Anyhow . . . I'm glad that people are thinking about such things. It's probably always good when people give consideration to the complexities of public service/government/citizenship.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:49 PM
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Good. That was a straight up execution. Those fellows were looking for the first excuse to open fire on that mentally ill man. The flash bang was used, it seems, to provoke some sort of reflexive reaction from the guy that would "justify" taking him out.
Really? You see something or know something everyone else doesn't friend? Been there have you? It's ignorant statements like the ones your just espoused that end up causing civil disturbances where MORE folks end up being injured or killed. If they did not follow the law or departmental policy then I am quite sure they will be dealt with accordingly.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:33 PM
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Honestly, the thing that keeps getting mentioned is what others talking to me have often referred to as moral justification for shootings (as opposed to legal justification). If I can describe what I'm hearing from them, it's that there needs to be less of an immediate movement toward the use of lethal force and more toward a sort of caring individualized involvement to de-escalate bad situations.
This is walking a really fine line. Actually, I admire some policemen who can walk this line.

In any enforcement position, the enforcer has to be willing to be on both sides. Obviously a de-escalation is better. No one gets hurt and the law is upheld. However, there comes a time when the hammer must be dropped and force is required. Thus, there is a moral imperative, but also a legal requirement. Hopefully, the laws are written in such a way that they include the moral imperative.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:43 PM
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Anyhow, that's what folks are saying.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:50 PM
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Erich, is there any CIT program set up at either the individual agency or academy level in your state? (Critical Incident Training)

We've had very good results with such training being instituted here in CA, and it can offer the working cop a good level of awareness, understanding and "tools" to use when dealing with persons suspected, or known, to be suffering from mental health issues.

A good friend of mine, who used to be involved in our CIT training program before his retirement, went on to get his PhD and become a trainer for other agencies in this growing field. His decades of police experience was quite helpful in helping him see all sides of this issue, and I was pleasantly surprised to learn that he knew a number of retiring/retired cops who were also getting their PhD's to become psychologists working with cops in this regard.

He & I spent many an hour discussing how our shared experiences in dealing with subjects suffering from mental illness issues might be distilled and incorporated into training to enable younger, less experienced cops to develop many of the same skills, much sooner in their careers.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:54 PM
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Mike, there must be, in both academies.
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:08 PM
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Mike, there must be, in both academies.
You say that so easily. BTDT.

Is that your hope, or something you know?
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:34 PM
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I know that NM DPS academy has CIT, and I'd be stunned if APD's didn't as well.

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BTW, it looks like Las Cruces PD has its own academy as well. Shows what I know.
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:41 PM
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There's a good illustration of when several LEO with weapons drawn say get on the ground, the smart thing to do is to get on the ground and fight about it in front of a judge another day.
I have to second that one. But perhaps suicide by cop? This guy obviously had been down to living outside and being thrown out of what little shelter he could find. At some point you can push a man so far he has nothing left to loose. That is when they become very very dangerous. I am not condoning or condemming just observing.

I hope the truth comes out in the light on this. For everyones sake.
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:33 PM
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The flash bang was used, it seems, to provoke some sort of reflexive reaction from the guy that would "justify" taking him out.
But did they forget they were on camera? Anyone trying to manipulate this poor mentally unstable man would consider that too I would think. But it does merit consideration doesn't it.
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