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  #101  
Old 04-04-2014, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTracy View Post
So, I opened the door and let the 9mm do the talking for me. He saw it, and couldn't get off my front porch fast enough.
Just so we're clear, what you are describing is Felony Menacing in Colorado

Quote:
CRS 18-3-206. Menacing(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.
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  #102  
Old 04-04-2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
It's exactly this kind of attitude......that generates this kind of response...?
I am aware, I said I didn't do it long. I did it for about two weeks, just long enough to realize I couldn't do it honestly and make a living


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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
RevTracy,
You do realize that that is a clear case of brandishing, right?
The word "brandish" does not appear anywhere in the Colorado Revised Statutes if you reference my post above the Statute calls it Felony Menacing and it's worth 2 years in the State Pen
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  #103  
Old 04-05-2014, 12:05 AM
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  #104  
Old 04-05-2014, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
The word "brandish" does not appear anywhere in the Colorado Revised Statutes if you reference my post above the Statute calls it Felony Menacing and it's worth 2 years in the State Pen
Yeah, it's a CA term. There is an actual legal definition of "brandishing" that's similar to the CO code, but has a lesser penalty. Rest assured, if you did it here, and they filed charges, there's enough in the law to turn it into a felony.

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My light is a steady green. Occasionally it elevates to yellow. It has never, in 67 years, gone to red. I'm cool with that.
Are you making a joke or have you never heard of the color code of awareness?
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  #105  
Old 04-05-2014, 02:38 AM
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It's my home and my life. If I choose to go to the door armed that's
my choice. If I choose to not answer the door that's my choice. If I
choose to ask through the closed door "Who are you and what do you
want?" That's my choice. Of course if the person is known to me and
safe I will act different than if it's a stranger. The days of opening your
door to any and all have long been over.
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  #106  
Old 04-05-2014, 02:58 AM
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I think good ole Joe B. said it best when he so intelligently suggested;

“Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door.”

Words of wisdom
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  #107  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Just so we're clear, what you are describing is Felony Menacing in Colorado
Quote:
CRS 18-3-206. Menacing(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon. quote closed.

Thank goodness Texas don't have such a provision, or we would have to lock up half of the law abiding residents of Texas.
You knock on doors late at night and in the wee hours of the morning, your very likely to be greeted by someone with a gun
in their hands. I prefer not answering the door.

However, I prefer not to announce to any such visitor that I am armed or to alert them in any way to my location. Its sort of like letting them know to come back at another time when you don't answer so they can walk in and haul off everything.

I am sure threatening someone with a gun outside your residence at a local store would likewise get you arrested in Texas but certainly nobody would be arrested for coming to their door with a gun unless they have some sort of criminal record. The problem I see with coming to the door late at night with a gun might give the visitor a chance to grab for it. I don't
believe in giving them that chance. I prefer all the odds in my
favor in the event his intentions are to burglarize or do home invasion.

Some of them late night dope heads might grab for a loaded gun because they are so high on drugs their better judgment is impaired.
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  #108  
Old 04-05-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
Thank goodness Texas don't have such a provision, or we would have to lock up half of the law abiding residents of Texas.
You knock on doors late at night and in the wee hours of the morning, your very likely to be greeted by someone with a gun
in their hands.
I suggest you go back and re read the post I was answering. The poster didn't just come to the door armed he used the gun to threaten someone who wasn't threatening him
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  #109  
Old 04-05-2014, 11:34 AM
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I try to follow all the cases that come up in Texas. I have never seen a case where the home owner was arrested for doing anything with a handgun, regardless of how the visitor
interpreted it. Some visitors, including criminals would claim
that the homeowner threatened them with a gun. That's not
likely to stand up in a Texas court unless there is video to support the late night visitor's claim of being threatened, and or audio to support the visitor's claim of being threatened,
and even then I doubt an arrest would be made.

Your post referred to Colorado which has been in the news
a lot lately over gun issues. So I would not be surprised at someone being arrested there based upon a claim made by a
late night visitor. And many states are less friendly to homeowners than others, with respect to their actions.
In Texas there is no restriction to coming to the door with
a gun in your hand on your own property. Colorado is off
my list to travel to anyway since the publicity it has received
during the past year or so.

But the whole point of avoiding any problems altogether is
to remain safely inside your home and only take action in the
event the late night visitor attempts to break in on the homeowner.
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  #110  
Old 04-05-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agwoodard View Post
I can give you one good reason to answer the door, at least where I live. If you don't, you are setting yourself up for a burglary that will turn into a home invasion.

Here's how it works, and as a Police Officer, I am sure you know this.

They knock on your door. Usually it is during the day. If someone answers they come up with something lame. Like asking for directions or if you need work done around your home.

If no one answers, they slip around back, try the back door, try the windows, and if they find something open, your home gets burglarized.

Now, if you ARE home and don't answer the door, and the bad guy comes in, you have a highly volatile situation on your hands.

It's better, at least in my mind, to let them know in no uncertain terms that the anti gun neighbor is a much better target for them than my home is ever going to be.
Yes its a problem if they make it inside the home. And the state you live in makes a great deal of difference. Here is a
case that interested me that happened in Maryland.
A man's home is his castle, except in Maryland. Man shoots intruder at 2am, gets charged with murder - Bullets First | Bullets First
maryland-man-shoots-intruder-2am-gets-charged-murder/

In Texas this homeowner would never have been charged,
unless the shooting took place outside the homeowner's home.
But in Maryland the laws are different. In Texas if he were charged it would have been no billed by the grand jury.

For one thing everyone ought to have a secure door, so secure that it is clear beyond doubt that the intruder broke his way in.
If it is during the day, more folks are far more likely to open the
door than at night, so I suspect that those wanting to do a burglary most likely will check during the day time, to try and
see if a homeowner is home or not. If the would be intruder is
high on meth he is not likely to care whether you are home at
night, or daytime either one, but is only interested in stealing
something of value to support his habit. As for slipping around
back I am glad I have no back door, so there is only one avenue
for someone to come in with secure windows.
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  #111  
Old 04-05-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
Your post referred to Colorado which has been in the news a lot lately over gun issues. So I would not be surprised at someone being arrested there based upon a claim made by a late night visitor.
Again, I’m going to recommend that read the post I was responding to. The claim wasn’t made by a late night visitor; the claim was a direct confession by the homeowner. “The guy wouldn’t leave so I showed him my gun”

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTracy View Post
Shows how wrong some sales people can be. I did have a persistent salesman at my door, along with two of his buddies. He was selling roof repairs...I talked through the door, but he wouldn't take "no" for an answer. So, I opened the door and let the 9mm do the talking for me. He saw it, and couldn't get off my front porch fast enough.
I’d guess even in Texas it’s not too hard to get a conviction with a confession.
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  #112  
Old 04-05-2014, 12:15 PM
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If he came in the daytime he would certainly have seen my guns. And I would have told him to leave. If he stuck his foot in the door to keep me from closing it I would have drawn my guns as well.

I doubt what this poster said would be used to charged him
in Texas based upon a report filed by the salesman. I have
not seen any such cases that stood up in Texas, but there could
be one I missed. Telling a man to leave in Texas and him refusing to leave private property gives the homeowner a lot
of leeway.
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  #113  
Old 04-05-2014, 12:20 PM
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After what I believe was going to be a home invasion, I'm never more than an arm's reach from a pistol, & I mean never. I may answer the door with a pistol(out of sight)but generally only at night. I will look out the peep glass to see if I know the person first, & that of course will determine how I proceed.
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  #114  
Old 04-05-2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
I see this here and on other forums all the time, people post that they always answer their door to strangers with a gun in hand, maybe not visible to the person at the door but always in hand.

I was always taught that if you wouldn’t do it without a gun you shouldn’t do it with a gun so I have to ask, if the person you’re opening the door for is that much of a concern that you need to do it with a gun in your hand why even open the door at all?
"if you wouldn’t do it without a gun you shouldn’t do it with a gun" So why would you go out your door? Of carry a piece in protection?

As too answering the door with a piece, speakin for myself, I have motion lights but I tend to have a piece on my person whilst at home ALWAYS! Am I paranoid? No just prudent, and don't feel like being food for the wolves. After 8pm the doors are locked and I don't answer them, if someone does enter my yard and knocks on the door, I answer via a darkened window, if they require help I will gladly call the proper folks. If I sense the need to open the door there is a pistol in my pocket or tucked in my pants.

Finally I do believe its up to each and every one of us too decide how we handle said situation, but thanks for the concern.
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  #115  
Old 04-05-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
RevTracy,
You do realize that that is a clear case of brandishing, right?
Only in So. Cal where you live. I know...I was born and raised there and lived there for 48 years. However, where I live NOW, this is not brandishing. Why? Because I was in my home, not on the street! Before making a claim that someone is clearly brandishing you should be certain of the circumstances.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:02 PM
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Let me be clear...when I said I let my 9mm do the talking, I DID NOT raise my weapon, or point it in the direction of the unwanted trespasser. I simply had the weapon in my hand, at my side, pointing to the floor in a safe manner. I DO understand what brandishing is and I would never do that. I was in my own home, minding my own business...I was not threatening nor did I say anything that could be considered threatening. Just wanted to clarify that.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:39 PM
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Only in So. Cal where you live. I know...I was born and raised there and lived there for 48 years. However, where I live NOW, this is not brandishing. Why? Because I was in my home, not on the street! Before making a claim that someone is clearly brandishing you should be certain of the circumstances.

They may not call it brandishing but it's just as illegal here in Colorado where you live as it is in Southern California where he lives

Quote:
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However, where I live NOW, this is not brandishing. Why? Because I was in my home, not on the street!.
Care to cite a specific Colorado statute to support that?
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTracy View Post
Let me be clear...when I said I let my 9mm do the talking, I DID NOT raise my weapon, or point it in the direction of the unwanted trespasser. I simply had the weapon in my hand, at my side, pointing to the floor in a safe manner. I DO understand what brandishing is and I would never do that. I was in my own home, minding my own business...I was not threatening nor did I say anything that could be considered threatening. Just wanted to clarify that.
You might want to read the Statute again

CRS 18-3-206. Menacing(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed :

a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.

By your own admission the guy wouldn't leave so you let him see your gun to run him off. What you did was Felony Menacing in Colorado
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevTracy View Post
Only in So. Cal where you live. I know...I was born and raised there and lived there for 48 years. However, where I live NOW, this is not brandishing. Why? Because I was in my home, not on the street! Before making a claim that someone is clearly brandishing you should be certain of the circumstances.
Texas does not have a brandishing law. Our law is intentional un concealment. But there Is no law requiring the weapon to be kept concealed in your home. However, in our vehicle we must keep the handgun concealed.

I did not interpret your statement as if you were doing anything threatening toward the unwelcome salesman. And he could have been a criminal posing as a salesman just to gain entry. California laws change so frequently I would hate to live in that state and try keeping up with them. One day one handgun is legal, next day its not. Isn't Colorado the state you live in, one that laws have recently been changing a lot there, like limiting capacity of magazines?

But I think the best policy would be to not answer the door, nor even let him know your home. If
a criminal wants to break in surely you can stop him coming through the door even in Colorado. I lived in a state once though that required you to retreat to the remote part of your home.

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Old 04-05-2014, 06:52 PM
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Yes, I realize now that the term "brandishing" may only apply to CA. Sorry for any confusion.

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Originally Posted by RevTracy View Post
Let me be clear...when I said I let my 9mm do the talking, I DID NOT raise my weapon, or point it in the direction of the unwanted trespasser.
Based on the comment, "...let the 9mm do the talking for me" I gather that you intended for the person at the door to see the gun. I also got from it that you intended to scare the guy away. At least that's what it sounded like to me.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Colorado Statue Felony Menacing 18-3-206

According to Colorado law:
“A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury.” Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but it is a class 5 felony if committed:

• With the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner that causes a person to believe that the article is a deadly weapon
• By a person who either brandishes or verbally states that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon

One essential element of both types of menacing charges is the specific intent to cause fear in a victim. You do not need to actually harm the victim to be charged with menacing. Also, it is not necessary for a victim to be aware of a threat or experience fear to be charged.
Denver Menacing Lawyer - The Mitchell Law Firm | The Mitchell Law Firm

With all due respect I don’t think some of you have a clue what you are talking about WRT to the Colorado Statute.

In Colorado if you use a weapon with the intent to threaten or intimidate someone (They don’t even have to know you did it) you are guilty of felony menacing.

In fact (and there is Colorado case law to support this) you don’t even have to have a real gun on you to be guilty of the charge. All you have to do is imply that you have a weapon with the intent to intimidate or threaten and you’re guilty, doesn’t matter if you’re in your home or not.

So yeah, salesman at the front door who isn’t threatening you but won’t go away and you "let your 9 do the talking", unless you can prove that you would have been justified using deadly force, you have just committed felony menacing.
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Old 04-06-2014, 12:52 AM
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Default I don't know about this....

[QUOTE=Badquaker;137822325]Girl scouts carrying cookies are not bad guys. Life is not black and white.


The way things are now thugs disguised as Girl Scouts don't sound to farfetched.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Again, I'm not talking about being armed on your property or in your home. I'm talking about going to the door with the gun in your hand .
I do it all the time. I live in the country and don't get many visitors. If I get to the door and find that it is someone I know I just slip it into my back pocket. No harm, no foul.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:39 AM
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So yeah, salesman at the front door who isn’t threatening you but won’t go away and you "let your 9 do the talking", unless you can prove that you would have been justified using deadly force, you have just committed felony menacing.
If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:26 AM
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If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.
How much of a threat is he when you are locked in the house and he's locked out of it and making no attempt to get into it?

I've never had a saleman refuse to leave after I said I was calling the cops
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:52 AM
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If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.
You guys can argue about Colorado laws, glad I live in Texas and don't have to worry about that. Here is just one link regarding the danger of traveling salesmen who come knocking
on your door. Door To Door Sales 2010

I saw another too relating to all sorts of crimes committed by some traveling magazine salesmen. While I do not live in Colorado my understanding is that their castle doctrine does not extend beyond your home door. In this day and age, there are scammers out there selling things, and may even use the knock on your front door for a distraction. Seems to
me unless you called someone out, your best course of action
is to ignore the knocking and do nothing till the guy tries to
break in. Based on the other postings here, I don't believe I
would even warn a person trying to beat the door down, that
I was armed. I see no legal obligation or otherwise to inform
him of that fact.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:30 AM
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How much of a threat is he when you are locked in the house and he's locked out of it and making no attempt to get into it?

I've never had a saleman refuse to leave after I said I was calling the cops
Regardless of your take on the scenario, he is as much of a threat as RevTracy can articulate. No where does it say that he has to tolerate someone trespassing on his property and refusing to leave when ordered to do so. By not leaving, he is escalating the situation and forcing RevTracy's hand. He is now in a position where he feels threatened and is defending himself, his family, and his property.

My point is that your black and white position on "felony menacing" or "brandishing" or whatever the law calls it where you live is not so black and white. There are no laws against walking to your door with a gun in your hand, you are in your home, you can do what you like. Having it in hand at your side when you answer the door is not brandishing, brandishing is more than a gun being present, it requires intent.

Going from "I'm not interested, get off my property" with your gun behind your back to "I asked you to leave, you are trespassing, I have a gun and I will defend myself" and exposing your gun is not brandishing, it is the second step in a force continuum. You asked him to leave, he refused, your verbal response is more forceful and you expose your weapon and preparing to defend yourself if need be. You don't know him, you've asked him to leave, his intentions are unclear now that he refuses to go, you feel threatened and fear for yourself and your family. It's all about articulation.
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Old 04-06-2014, 01:25 PM
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From a brief perusal of case law I wouldn't bet my freedom on it in the situation in question "let my 9mm do the talking" BUT for the record:

From Colorado Jury Instructions:

It is an affirmative defense to the crimes of Attempted Second Degree Murder, First Degree Assault, Second Degree Assault Causing Bodily Injury, Menacing, Attempted Second Degree Assault and Attempted Third Degree Assault that the defendant used physical force upon another person

1. In order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believed to be the imminent use of unlawful physical force by the victim, and

2. the defendant used the degree of force which he reasonably believed to be necessary for that purpose.

As I said, it obviously doesn't apply in the above case, but I wanted to point out that the Colorado menacing code is not as draconian as it appears. (although from what I saw in a quick look, it pretty much is in reality)
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Old 04-06-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kentucky Dave View Post
From a brief perusal of case law I wouldn't bet my freedom on it in the situation in question "let my 9mm do the talking" BUT for the record:

From Colorado Jury Instructions:

It is an affirmative defense to the crimes of Attempted Second Degree Murder, First Degree Assault, Second Degree Assault Causing Bodily Injury, Menacing, Attempted Second Degree Assault and Attempted Third Degree Assault that the defendant used physical force upon another person

1. In order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believed to be the imminent use of unlawful physical force by the victim, and

2. the defendant used the degree of force which he reasonably believed to be necessary for that purpose.

As I said, it obviously doesn't apply in the above case, but I wanted to point out that the Colorado menacing code is not as draconian as it appears. (although from what I saw in a quick look, it pretty much is in reality)
What Revtracy did wasn’t a whole lot different than what I did in my other thread so I’m in no position to condemn.

The point I’m trying to make though is that you’re better off thinking first and avoid the need for it ever to come to jury instructions in the first place.

Here’s a bit of Colorado case law you might be interested in

Former deputy accused of threat using a gun

All this guy did was put his hand on his jacket over where his gun was and he was arrested. He was eventually acquitted but only after a year’s worth of trials and attorney fees.

I got a chance to speak to the gentleman and he said it cost him several thousand dollars to stay out of jail and he still lost his PI license and his handgun permit.

It’s better to avoid the charge entirely than to beat it.
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Old 04-06-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Badkarma 1 View Post
"if you wouldn’t do it without a gun you shouldn’t do it with a gun" So why would you go out your door? Of carry a piece in protection?

As too answering the door with a piece, speakin for myself, I have motion lights but I tend to have a piece on my person whilst at home ALWAYS! Am I paranoid? No just prudent, and don't feel like being food for the wolves. After 8pm the doors are locked and I don't answer them, if someone does enter my yard and knocks on the door, I answer via a darkened window, if they require help I will gladly call the proper folks. If I sense the need to open the door there is a pistol in my pocket or tucked in my pants.

Finally I do believe its up to each and every one of us too decide how we handle said situation, but thanks for the concern.
Dale
I agree with you about not answering the door after 8:00pm.
I just do not answer at all nor make turn on a lights which are
turned off by then. I find this issue fascinating. I think there
is a lot more risk than people realize in answering the door to
anyone you do not know. I found this interesting link.
http://www.travelingsalescrews.info/...d%20082111.htm. This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I never realized how much danger I might be avoiding by just
not opening the door at all or making a sound unless they try to gain entry by kicking my door in, and then I am on very safe
legal ground in Texas to take them down when the door comes down.
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Old 04-06-2014, 06:28 PM
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This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.
I can't imagine a LEGITIMATE traveling salesman having anything I'd have the SLIGHTEST interest in buying.

I'm pretty much unaware of any legit traveling salesmen dealing in firearms, jazz fusion CDs, or books on firearms, inter-war bi-plane fighters, history, Asian languages or the Great Purge of 1937-1938.
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Old 04-06-2014, 06:56 PM
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I think this is the crazy **** that gives gun owners a bad rap. Just because you may have a concealed weapons permit or just keep a gun in the home for protection doesn't mean you have to think you're probably going to have to use it every time you answer the door. Maybe if you feel that way you should move out of the "hood" to someplace you can feel safe.
Think what you like. It's absurd blanket generalizations like the above that give gun forum members a bad rap. Ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? Ever check national statistics on home invasions? If you did, you might realize that maintaining one's sense of alert and vigilance within one's home is the prudent course of action. Assuming that a person coming to the door armed = that person thinking he is "probably going to have to use it every time [he] answers the door" is as ridiculous as applying the same flawed logic to individuals who CCW. Additionally, the "hood" is not the exclusive domain for home invasions or violent residential crimes, nor is it the only place where home owners may feel unsafe, or at the very least, cautious. If you're so confident in your assertions, why not post a thread inquiring as to how many S&W Forum members answer the door armed, then cross reference that total with the number of S&W Forum thread respondents who live in the "hood". Then post the results.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:24 PM
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Ever check national statistics on home invasions?
Yes, actually, I have. The thing is, you won't find any. The reason you won't find any is that the term "home invasion" has no legal definition. Since this has never been defined, it's a hard question to answer.

The closest thing I can find that relates to a "home invasion" would be a break in (burglary) where someone was home. I found this on the Bureau of Justice Statistics website:
  • The rate of household burglary decreased 56% from 1994 to 2011, from a peak of 63.4 victimizations per 1,000 U.S. households in 1994 to 27.6 victimizations per 1,000 households in 2011.
  • From 1994 to 2011, the rate of completed burglary decreased by at least half across households headed by persons of all races and Hispanic origin.
  • Among all completed burglaries, those involving the theft of an electronic device or household appliance increased from 28% in 2001 to 34% in 2011.

So, burglary is on the decrease for the most part. However, this could be due to an increase in public awareness. I wouldn't fault anyone for being diligent. I don't think having a gun with you is a bad thing. I don't think not opening the door is a bad thing.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
I agree with you about not answering the door after 8:00pm.
I just do not answer at all nor make turn on a lights which are
turned off by then. I find this issue fascinating. I think there
is a lot more risk than people realize in answering the door to
anyone you do not know. I found this interesting link.
http://www.travelingsalescrews.info/...d%20082111.htm. This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I never realized how much danger I might be avoiding by just
not opening the door at all or making a sound unless they try to gain entry by kicking my door in, and then I am on very safe
legal ground in Texas to take them down when the door comes down.
My dog goes nuts when someone knocks on my door. Can't imagine the thought process that would lead someone to try to gain entry after hearing that. She's a pretty serious canine.



Of course, were I home, she'd be backed up by me with one of these.



And one of these in my holster.

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Old 04-06-2014, 08:37 PM
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quote: Hawkeye:
My dog goes nuts when someone knocks on my door. Can't imagine the thought process that would lead someone to try to gain entry after hearing that. She's a pretty serious canine.
unquote:

Yes but you have that option. Many apartment complexes including the one I am in do not allow dogs unless you already have one. So I can't
have one and comply with their rules.

When I am not home I usually have an attendant here with my daughter
and if security is needed she knows how to shoot. But she knows not to
open the door to any traveling salesmen or strangers.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:52 PM
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All this guy did was put his hand on his jacket over where his gun was and he was arrested. He was eventually acquitted but only after a year’s worth of trials and attorney fees.
*
One of the problems here is the poor judgment of LE, and the even worse judgment of prosecutors. I am confident that in neither of the offices in which I have worked in this state, and at least one in the other state, that referral would have gotten a "no charge" decision pretty quickly. The cops have an obligation to try to respond to calls, and to write reports when justified, but prosecutors have pretty much unfettered discretion and anyone who would file that when the facts indicate anything that would support the affirmative defense as tactically sound has WAY too much time on their hands. Fortunately, we have a complete statutory defense at our homes for the similar offense in WA, and overcoming it would be very unlikely.

As for "home invasion:" there is a crime by that name in at least one state IIRC (Illinois). Here, it would be burglary one.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc5aw View Post
Think what you like. It's absurd blanket generalizations like the above that give gun forum members a bad rap. Ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? Ever check national statistics on home invasions? If you did, you might realize that maintaining one's sense of alert and vigilance within one's home is the prudent course of action. Assuming that a person coming to the door armed = that person thinking he is "probably going to have to use it every time [he] answers the door" is as ridiculous as applying the same flawed logic to individuals who CCW. Additionally, the "hood" is not the exclusive domain for home invasions or violent residential crimes, nor is it the only place where home owners may feel unsafe, or at the very least, cautious. If you're so confident in your assertions, why not post a thread inquiring as to how many S&W Forum members answer the door armed, then cross reference that total with the number of S&W Forum thread respondents who live in the "hood". Then post the results.
Your right, why do those who are affluent enough not to be on the front lines of society's problems of recycling criminals, burglars, and other felons, always think that moving is the adequate thing to solve the problem? Reminds me of those
folks who have their expensive security systems and their
armed security guards. In Texas the common folks who have
gun permits have to provide their own protection, they don't
pay for someone else to do it or move to gated communities
where they can feel safer.

And stats about how infrequent such things are typically not
accurately reported. I have seen a lot of cases of violent crimes
people commit but are right back out on the streets the same
day. One I previously mentioned was wanted for armed robbery, kidnapping and armed sexual assault. These affluent
neighborhoods that supposedly do not have a problem cost a
lot more money to live in, and I for one was not born with a
silver spoon in my mouth.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:10 PM
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We live in a rural area and rarely EVER get unexpected visitors. We can easily glance out the front window to see a vehicle in the drive. If I don't recognize the vehicle, and especially if there is NOT a vehicle, I pick up my front door .38 from it's little hide-y hole and keep it by my side. I will query the "guest" through the always locked, unopened door which is largely glass so I can easily peak through the door curtain. If I decide to open the door, the gun is in hand at my side but slightly out of view.

Only one time ever have I really opened the door on full alert. That was back when we lived in the big city. (Houston) Really scraggly looking guy and young woman claiming some nonsense about being lost and needing directions. Kept asking all sorts of stupid questions while looking around nervously. I finally stepped a little more into view and they saw a .357 six inch barrel Ruger Blackhawk in my hand, still discretely, but now visibly, at my side. I asked "is there anything else I can help you with?"
They quickly departed.

Maybe four or five times since we moved to the country have I answered (not necessarily opened) the door gun in hand.
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:19 PM
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I am confident that in neither of the offices in which I have worked in this state, and at least one in the other state, that referral would have gotten a "no charge" decision pretty quickly.
Maybe, maybe not I don't have an extra 10K laying around that I want to spend finding out.
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:55 PM
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Well, folks...I'm done with this thread, with one last comment. Here's something to think about as you argue back and fourth on this topic. Yesterday while I had a meeting after our worship services, four teenagers came into our unlocked church building, broke into my office and stole my personal laptop and briefcase. Now these thugs have my personal information, files, pictures, etc., including my home address and my wife's work address. In addition, all of my tax information for filing 2013 taxes was in a file folder in my briefcase. If you were in my place how would you answer the door in the coming months/years?
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:21 PM
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I'm very sorry to hear your stuff was stolen. I've had a few things stolen over the years. I've also had my house broken into. It always leaves you with a feeling of being violated.

How do you know it was four teenagers? Did you catch them?

I do have to say though, it hasn't changed how I answer the door.
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:50 PM
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If you were in my place how would you answer the door in the coming months/years?
Same way I do now.
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Old 04-07-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Same way I do now.
Me too...with my weapon on my hip, or if I feel threatened, in my hand out of sight!!! I'm even more vigilant now that my opsec is compromised...they know where I live and work, and they know I have weapons.

If some on this site think my approach is over the top, or paranoid, I don't care. It's my life, my family's safety, and I will always put that before political correctness or fear of "brandishing laws."

Rastof - no, they were not caught. I know from two eye witnesses that they were teenagers - 16 to 18 years old.

Signing off now...stay safe!
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  #144  
Old 04-07-2014, 05:34 PM
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I have to ask this question (answering your door armed) I have to ask this question (answering your door armed) I have to ask this question (answering your door armed) I have to ask this question (answering your door armed) I have to ask this question (answering your door armed)  
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If some on this site think my approach is over the top, or paranoid, I don't care.
I never said your approach was over the top or paranoid, what I said was using a gun to intimidate someone who wasn't a threat to you, especially since they were on the other side of a (presumably) locked door and making no attempt to get in, was illegal.

I also said that you are clueless on Colorado's gun laws and invited you to cite a specific statute that stated that there's no such thing as "brandishing" (a term that appears nowhere in the Colorado Code BTW) in your home.
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Last edited by Smoke; 04-07-2014 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:05 AM
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Badkarma 1 Badkarma 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
I agree with you about not answering the door after 8:00pm.
I just do not answer at all nor make turn on a lights which are
turned off by then. I find this issue fascinating. I think there
is a lot more risk than people realize in answering the door to
anyone you do not know. I found this interesting link.
http://www.travelingsalescrews.info/...d%20082111.htm. This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I never realized how much danger I might be avoiding by just
not opening the door at all or making a sound unless they try to gain entry by kicking my door in, and then I am on very safe
legal ground in Texas to take them down when the door comes down.
It's what's called a "push in robbery". For whatever reason you go to answer the door, and as you open it you get bum rushed!
Dale
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:02 PM
crapmaster crapmaster is offline
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Unfortunately our beautiful quiet neighborhood has had a rash of break ins, home invasions and burglaries lately. January alone outnumbered all of 2013 so far. Just yesterday an 85 year old woman was victimized two blocksfrom me in our tract. Couple months ago a stranger approached my wife in the driveway when she came home. When I came outside (unarmed except my benchmade) his story change and he left and we reported him to police. Always been a screen door, door open neighborhood and all my neighbors watch out for each other however I do keep a firearm handy. I always know if someone is coming within a few houses cause of my noisy alert dogs. Answering armed and showing probably get you in trouble here in CA so I keep anything I have concealed.
My latest home protection tool G21 BTW.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:33 PM
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It's what's called a "push in robbery". For whatever reason you go to answer the door, and as you open it you get bum rushed!
Dale
Which leads right back to my original point why open the door in the first place?
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:34 PM
feralmerril feralmerril is offline
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There are a lot of factors why we do or dont open the door. First is the way we were brought up, second is where and what era. We all are on one side or the other due to just the luck of the draw on the above. I was raised under the best of circumstances in those areas. Then I left wisconsin and jobs took me all over the states and I rubbed shoulders with the other half.
I ended up in southern california as a guard. It was a choppy area and I did have some of the other halfs experiences. Once right across the street from my house a couple guys robbed something and the police pursued them where they lost it, ran in the neighbors house and it was a hostage situation with older people. Another banger thought it was fun to shoot a city water works worker on top his head while he was in a man hole. Killed him. That was about a block away. I was burglared several times, a truck stolen and never found and another attempt at its replacement.
Another time a half baked neighbor kid got in my house about pre dawn and he got a experience I bet he still remembers, if still alive, but I handled it and never called the the law. Once had a couple of "acquaintances" card their way in my cheap apartment and they thought they would work me over with 24 oz empty coke bottels. God and my temper got me out of that one. There probley are more but I still answer my door and will until I pass. I guess I am a slow learner. Most younger guys have been brought up with the last half my life. Most dont know how we had it in the 40s and 50s. Even then we did have things happen, just not as much as today. I well remember when I was a small kid of about five in 1946. My mom ran a country general store alone durring the war and couldnt keep a eye on me. I was allowed to range about a mile in all directions. Today she would be in trouble but there never was a better mother. One day I was walking to a buddys farm house about a mile away. A 37 chev coupe coming from the other direction on the secluded road come to a stop and two real rough looking guys asked me did I want a ride! I knew everyone in the area as being a kid in the store but I didnt know these guys wanting to take me the opposite direction. At least I had presence of mind to say no, I live there and pointed at a farm house across the road and made for it.
One of the biggest killer ghoul`s in history, Ed Gein was caught by my cousin`s husband our county sheriff. My mom chased him off a couple years prior when she seen him peeking in her bed room window!
So, we DID have a few things happen even back then. I spent 35 + years working security, yet my wife is many times over more cautious than me. Still its probley because where and when she was raised as she is almost 17 years younger than me. Yeah, if I lived in Beirut or Detroit I would be more careful but I still am going to greet anyone, if I can get my wife away from blocking me from the door.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:21 PM
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Hey Merril could you maybe split up your post a little bit? It's reall hard to read that one big block of text
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