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  #1  
Old 04-04-2014, 03:49 PM
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I have heard it said on several gun forums that you ought never to post anywhere that you would deliberately be trying to kill a person in a self defense shooting. I’ve always read that the proper terminology is that you are shooting to stop the threat.

The rationale has always been that any post you make on a gun forum indicating that you were trying to kill the bad guy could be used against you in court.

In your professional experience has this ever actually happened?
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Old 04-04-2014, 04:45 PM
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Since whether the offender lives or dies is not really relevant to the lawfulness of the application of the force, I suspect that most of those cautions come from the internet law school of rumors, but that said: I am not aware of it directly, but I am aware of facebook and other such places being mined for information. My wife is aware of my hatred for those sites, and as her professional FB page became more infested with personal stuff, she did at least refrain from any discernible stuff about me. She did post a 20-odd year old photo of us together from her PhD hooding, but I'm not real recognizable from it and there is none of the geocode silliness in old photos like that.

Since this is an pretty open forum, I would be careful about what is posted. I know of others that are members only, and which are set to not be easily scanned by web robots, and even there, most folks advocate caution. The other thing to consider is how the evidence rules would apply to allow or prohibit use of such information, and that is an issue that would be too specific to the state, nature of the case, and a lot of other fact specific sorts of things to predict.
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:32 PM
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I can't recall any specific shooting case where internet postings were used during a trial (criminal or civil). Not saying it hasn't happened tho. Involved shooting cases to that level are extremely rare so the number would be few.
However, I have used internet postings in other cases such as burglary and a battery. These are multi-times more common cases so the opportunity and need for doing internet evidence is a lot greater.
Everything you say or do could possibly be used by either side. Remember too that rules of evidence in civil cases is generally a lot less restrictive than in criminal cases and the burden of proof is only 50.1% not beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:47 PM
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While its missing persons type stuff, twice this year a local teen ran away from home. In both cases, text history and Facebook were used to track them down.
It's as much an investigative tool today as fingerprints and credit card records.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:07 AM
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While I cannot quote specific case law, you should know that any Internet postings are discoverable.

You posts can be found. Try googling your screen name.

Depending on the circumstances of the situation, opposing counsel or the prosecutor will try to learn every aspect of the individual. Things that have been said, written, posted, etc can be used in the trial.

It is our best interest to choose our words carefully in all aspects of our life.

I learned this lesson the hard way several years ago with a "little" incident with my agency. It all worked out but some of my words spoken in jest and/or being flippant came back to haunt me.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:33 AM
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Though I don't always abide by it, I learned this song early in life and think it's good advice even if it's not directly referring to the context being discussed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNnHrCtWsDs
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:51 AM
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Whether or not web postings would be admissible or damning at trial seems of secondary importance to the general principle that nothing good comes of speaking, much less committing to writing, threats of violence or things that can be perceived as such.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:07 AM
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I am not one of the professionals you are directing your question, but I would say this:

If you watch the NEWS (honest and real NEWS - not skuttle-butt) it is apparent to me that before the first time Facebook postings or emails were mentioned they were in this category you are questioning. There has to be a first time for everything.

I don't think you can rule anything out as not being a possibility as attorneys usually don't appear to really care about right or wrong. It becomes a matter of win or lose. There are no other scores kept on attorneys that I know of.

Anything (and I mean Anything) that might enhance a case "might" be used if an attorney can find a way to improve his chances of winning a case.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemeteryman View Post
Whether or not web postings would be admissible or damning at trial seems of secondary importance to the general principle that nothing good comes of speaking, much less committing to writing, threats of violence or things that can be perceived as such.
That nails it precisely for me. But then I think giving too much information of any kind, in these times when privacy is already only a memory, is a risk.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:19 PM
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FWIW, most of my work is in the family court context representing victims of domestic violence, and I regularly use Facebook and online dating site material in my cases. Never once had to get it by subpoena, or even through discovery. Invariably the folks whose info I want seem to have profiles without privacy settings turned on, go figure. Just go to the page, expand old posts as far back as you need, and save as HTML. Print it out and attach it to pleadings, present print copies as exhibits, or even display it on the projector screen in the courtroom, whatever suits.

I even had one fellow who was posting all the pleadings filed in his case to his facebook page, and then he and his family+friends were editorializing on them, insulting me, insulting my client (his wife). All of this kept on even after the court told him to stop doing so, since his kids could see his FB page. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to whether this helped or hurt his efforts to regain visitation rights? Any guesses how this sort of **** would have played out if it were a SD shooting case? Exactly.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:42 PM
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You shoot to stop the action that caused you to shoot in the first place.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:20 PM
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Comments posted on social media have been used in court in a case in New York. Basically, after an officer used force to make an arrest, he got on social media bragging about it. It certainly did influence the prosecution, the defense, the judge and the jury in a negative way.
In any shooting situation, any comments that could be construed as evidence that you wanted to shoot someone or you were glad you got to shoot someone would certainly cloud the issue of self defense. Those type of comments would certainly have a negative influence on a civil case. As far as law enforcement, having a reputation as a bloodthirsty cold blooded killer will not enhance your career opportunities in most agencies. Having been in multiple officer involved shootings does not automatically show a lack of regard for human life. It may only indicate that an officer actively seeks bad people and is successful in finding them. Most officers who have been in multiple shootings have also been in multiple situations where deadly force would have been necessary and/or justified but was avoided due to the excellent tactics used in the encounter. There have certainly been criminals taken into custody who admitted that they intended to use armed resistance but changed their mind when they realized that they had no chance. It is hard to keep count of how many officer involved shootings you avoided. You never know how many people you arrested would have jumped you and went for your weapon if you had put yourself in a vulnerable position.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ1225 View Post
You shoot to stop the action that caused you to shoot in the first place.
Exactly right
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:56 PM
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Thanks to everyone who is responding. I really don't have any thing of value to add so I'm just reading your responses
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Old 04-06-2014, 12:50 AM
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I dont need to tell you lawyers will lie. Many years ago I temporary let a GF live with me. She was in a bad time of her life, sick and jobless. One day I was sitting in the house and she was outside doing something. She came in with a dapper looking old guy and said, "Merril, this is a LAPD detective and he wants to know if you know who lived here before you". I looked at him and privately thought if you are on LAPD, you got to be the oldest on the department! I didnt know who lived in the house I was renting but that didnt stop him he kept talking. At one point he said something about, "Your wife". I didnt acknowledge that or stop him, just gave him a look. The lady was in a law suite against her mother. Her mother had two daughters prior to her by a prior marriage.
Her mother was very old and her first two daughters were influencing their mother against their half sister. Marg`s father had just died and had left her a monthly allowance as it had been a rich family and she was his only kid. She was sick and wasn't getting that allowance that he had willed her so she had sued. A little later I got a summons from their family lawyer to testify. This PI got up after me and told the court that I had introduced marg to him as my wife! A total lie! I started to get up and say otherwise and was told to sit down. This was 48 years ago. Even her lawyer stopped me when I wanted to set the record straight. On a break in the hallway, the other lawyer came over to me tried to lamely apologize and tried to blow smoke at me and say it wouldn't have made any difference. Her lawyer had my landlady testify that there was two bedrooms etc.
She died on me.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:32 AM
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I recall that prosecutors used comments that LAPD officers sent to each other on their in-car computers following the Rodney King incident. That was long before social media became commonplace.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:25 AM
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I well remember that one too.
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Old 04-06-2014, 12:27 PM
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While not addressing the question, while living in San Diego a high profile shooting was covered on the TV news. The very anti gun District Attorney was trying the case. While showing the handgun used in the crime as evidence, he was holding the gun up in front of the jury. The gun had a trigger lock on it, however it also had the hammer cocked back, making the gun look a little more menacing. Very subtle but blatant at the same time. The morel of the story is, anything that can be used against you will be..
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:16 AM
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Not in LE, but my son is a federal agent who investigates passport/visa fraud, etc. and says Facebook is his friend. If the BG can keep his mouth shut--his family can't. He often IDs/locates suspects through FB.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:43 AM
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Measure "Risk" vs. "Benefit".

If it's more important for you to pound on a hairy chest in front of millions of internet admirers then by all means crow away.

Me? I have nothing else to prove to anyone.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:58 AM
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You shoot to stop the felonious threat. Per NIJ report 100-83, the most effective aiming point to incapacitate an attacker facing you is center of chest, about armpit high (third shirt button).

Conversations/statements of any kind can be introduced to demonstrate your state of mind.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:29 AM
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I mine the internet all the time for use in Court.Believe me-what you post can come back and bite you.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:17 PM
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If you are on record as saying "I am going to shoot to kill.", and you are justified in using deadly force, what does it matter. Shooting a firearm at another is deadly force and, is by definition, shooting to kill.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
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If you are on record as saying "I am going to shoot to kill.", and you are justified in using deadly force, what does it matter. Shooting a firearm at another is deadly force and, is by definition, shooting to kill.
I understand what you're saying and in many cases it is clear that a shooting was justified. Prior statements in these cases aren't particularly important since the evidence speaks for itself.

However, there are cases where the justification for the shooting is in question. The evidence isn't clear one way or another. This is true of about any trial that goes to jury in which self-defense is claimed. It's in these cases prior statements and other similar evidence might be used to establish a state of mine.

I wouldn't want be a courtroom situation where I have to explain prior statements suggesting that I'm eager to shoot or kill someone even in self-defense. My opinion is that this type of stuff could very well influence a jury in a negative way.

I may be wrong but I'm not going to make any such statements either verbally, on the internet, or with a bumper sticker on my car because of what might up down the road.
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:17 PM
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"I shot to stop the threat." "I was in fear for my life or the life of another." That is the only statements you ever make before or after using deadly force. This is what I taught in the police academy and what I practice at all times. Any other statement is just plain stupid.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:14 PM
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What an interesting thread.

Lot's of Internet Experts giving lots of Internet Advice.

Some of them saying they are LEO.

Here's some real information.

None of these Internet Experts will be with you when the incident occurs.

Asking for Internet Advice is just as wayward as giving it.

Any LEO worth his salt will not give you advice over the Internet or by PM or telephone. If he's a personal friend, he may sit with you and talk it through.

He/She will likely respond exactly how I am, telling you this is the wrong place to ask.
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:22 PM
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I always liked the response of a old Mississippi bluesman named R L Burnside when asked about his killing a man during a dice game in the early sixties. " I didn't mean to kill nobody... I just meant to shoot the *******. in the head and two times in the chest. Him dying was between him and the Lord"
He served six months in Parchman Farm and his employer got him released because he needed a tractor driver.
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Old 04-19-2014, 07:42 PM
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you can hardly ever get yourself in deep trouble by saying nothing.
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