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  #51  
Old 04-12-2014, 10:37 PM
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I am in favor of a good hunter safety class, however in instilling the 10 rules of gun safety .
10 rules? Wow, your list is long. I teach 4 and the NRA teaches 3.

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Exactly, it's just hard for me to imagine someone who has never used a firearm going into a gun shop, buying a gun, taking it home, and using it without anything but maybe a manual.
This is not hard for me to imagine at all. I've seen the results of this in co-workers and people at the range. The result is not pretty. 10 minutes of instruction puts them on the path to happy and safe shooting.

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Now. Which of the two posses a greater danger to themselves/others?
I understand your reasoning and statistically it's true. But the real question, because the guns were bought for self defense, is which shooter is better able to effectively defend themselves?

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OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
Through professional training.

There are 5 possible responses to a threatening situation; fight, flight, freeze, posture and submit. For this discussion I'll leave out posture and submit. For self defense either fight or flight is an acceptable response. Both seek to alter the attacker's ability to succeed at the attack. Freeze is what you want to avoid.

It is really difficult to know how you'll react and even harder to change that without real training. This post is long enough as it is. There are things you can do to prepare, but it will take too much room here.



I see training like this:
Training should not be mandated. Owning a gun is a right, not a privilege. However, a responsible gun owner will seek some kind of training.
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  #52  
Old 04-12-2014, 11:44 PM
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I understand your reasoning and statistically it's true. But the real question, because the guns were bought for self defense, is which shooter is better able to effectively defend themselves?
In theory I'll agree with you, but in the absence of any data to support it...? I actually read/hear MORE stories about untrained people successfully defending their homes than I do trained people.



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Training should not be mandated. Owning a gun is a right, not a privilege. However, a responsible gun owner will seek some kind of training.
Agree wholeheartedly!
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:51 PM
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OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
Force on force training
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:01 AM
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Force on force training
Would you agree that even force on force does not produce "precisely" the same effect as an actual encounter?
In training we at least know that (barring an accident) we will come through it safely. In a real life encounter we have no such guarantee...and that produces a different adrenalin dump than training. Training is great, but there is no replicating a real encounter.
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:12 AM
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Would you agree that even force on force does not produce "precisely" the same effect as an actual encounter?
In training we at least know that (barring an accident) we will come through it safely. In a real life encounter we have no such guarantee...and that produces a different adrenalin dump than training. Training is great, but there is no replicating a real encounter.
One of the benefits of the electronic age is that remotely monitored sensors can be installed on a wonderous number of things. From this, we have learned that extensively trained, experienced LE/Military personnel in force on force drills will put their fingers on the trigger at inappropriate times. There are also other lessons learned.

Now, these experienced personnel KNOW, intellecutally, that the scenario is simply training. At a sub-concious level, it's still a threat and appropriate (and possibly inappropriate) behaviors are elicited. So are elevated pulse and respiration rates.

I go through inservice training every year plus 24 hours of continuing eduction every 3 years to maintain instructor certs with mulitple weapons systems. I learn things at every training experience and I've been at this over 30 years.

I wouldn't go to Billyjoejimbobs School of Gunology, but some cautious shopping can be productive. I'd suggest paying with a credit card and if the BS alarm is frequently sounding, don't be afraid to bail and ask for a refund. You can always get the CC issuer to intervene.

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Old 04-13-2014, 02:39 AM
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Yet many people do exactly that...and successfully defend themselves with the same gun. Locally, we've had no less than 10 instances of this in 2014, with 5 of them fatally wounding the threat. When interviewed by the media only 1 of them said they had any training. One person had just got the gun two weeks prior and was able to fend off 3 home invaders...one of whom was armed with a gun too!
Any chance of getting links to those stories/reports?

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Old 04-13-2014, 03:34 AM
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In theory I'll agree with you, but in the absence of any data to support it...? I actually read/hear MORE stories about untrained people successfully defending their homes than I do trained people.
Of course you do, there are at least 10 times the number of those with no formal training. Therefore, they are 10 times more likely to show up in the news.

Are you actually suggesting that those without formal training are better at defending themselves?
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:25 PM
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Just rambling thoughts... no particular order and some contrarian views mixed in.

How important is training? I suppose it depends on the type and level of training, as well as the individual. Unless you're dealing with a maniac like James Yeager, I don't think a person can go wrong with training and more training. The importance is not so easy to measure. I would guess that most everyone here is likely to live their entire lives never requiring the use of a gun in self defense. So I guess it could be said that most self defense gun training doesn't manifest as measurably important for most folks. Probably good nutrition and diet training of gun owners would save more lives.

I think many would say that rudimentary safety training and gun handling is important regardless if a gun is ever used in self defense or not, but most, though not all, of that is simple disciplines and common sense rather than reaching any degree of skill level. For example, keeping your grubby paws off your carry gun doesn't require much technical training or mastery of skills, yet a lot of folks who are otherwise knowledgeable of the basics just cant do it. A vid was recently posted of a seasoned sheriff shooting himself and endangering the lives of others in a gun store because he didn't have the simple discipline to keep his carry gun holstered.

Mandatory training is required in Tennessee to get a carry permit. An idiot who walks in the classroom will be the same idiot who walks out having completed mandatory training. Georgia is a border state and requires no training for a carry permit. I don't think that the good people of Georgia suffer any more problems with those who carry than we do here. I have asked those who support mandatory training to supply evidence to the contrary between TN/GA and other similar pairs of border states... nothing but the sound of crickets chirping.

What I think gets missed a lot are the most rudimentary issues that pertain to the specific gun, individual, how and where it is carried. Let's say a guy chooses a pocket gun. When does he learn that a pocket gun is rather useless in the pocket if he can't get it out of his pocket while sitting in his car getting car-jacked? This kind of Gun Carry 101 simple stuff isn't taught in Tennessee's mandatory training class.

For those who are new to carry, I think a one-on-one day with a good instructor would be well worth the time and cost. Not just for basic safety and gun handling, but for a basic overview of law and what are the most common issues and misunderstandings with the law. Much beyond that I'm not so sure of the cost/reward for average Joe.

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Old 04-13-2014, 03:43 PM
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Of course you do, there are at least 10 times the number of those with no formal training. Therefore, they are 10 times more likely to show up in the news.

Are you actually suggesting that those without formal training are better at defending themselves?
I'm suggesting that there is no evidence to support the notion that IN HOME INVASSION CASES trained individuals fare any better than untrained.
The trained individual "should" have a higher percentage of shots that hit on target, but considering that the goal is to "end the threat" (which doesn't necessarily mean hitting the target) that doesn't make them better at defending themselves.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:45 PM
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Any chance of getting links to those stories/reports?

Thanks
Google home invasion shootings in Detroit for 2014.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:46 PM
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ChattanoogaPhil,
I can't disagree with you doubt about a significant difference between TN's mandatory and GA's no training. Other than some points on the use of lethal force, the parts of a handgun, the difference between a revolver and semi-auto, basic safety roles, and 50 rounds down range at distances of 3, 5, and 7 yards (maybe a couple at 10 yrs), we didn't do much. Parts of it were helpful to people who had very little or no experience with handguns.

I actually think one of the main reasons for mandatory handgun classes for permits (like TN's) is more political than anything else. Politicians can claim to voters on the fence who otherwise might not be comfortable with handgun carry that permit holders are required to go through mandatory training before receiving a permit. The debate over the recent proposal that just passed the State Senate (25-2) allowing open carry without permit to anyone who legally possesses a firearm is going to be interesting. Still need permit to conceal carry.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:48 PM
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Just rambling thoughts... no particular order and some contrarian views mixed in.

How important is training? I suppose it depends on the type and level of training, as well as the individual. Unless you're dealing with a maniac like James Yeager, I don't think a person can go wrong with training and more training. The importance is not so easy to measure. I would guess that most everyone here is likely to live their entire lives never requiring the use of a gun in self defense. So I guess it could be said that most self defense gun training doesn't manifest as measurably important for most folks. Probably good nutrition and diet training of gun owners would save more lives.

I think many would say that rudimentary safety training and gun handling is important regardless if a gun is ever used in self defense or not, but most, though not all, of that is simple disciplines and common sense rather than reaching any degree of skill level. For example, keeping your grubby paws off your carry gun doesn't require much technical training or mastery of skills, yet a lot of folks who are otherwise knowledgeable of the basics just cant do it. A vid was recently posted of a seasoned sheriff shooting himself and endangering the lives of others in a gun store because he didn't have the simple discipline to keep his carry gun holstered.

Mandatory training is required in Tennessee to get a carry permit. An idiot who walks in the classroom will be the same idiot who walks out having completed mandatory training. Georgia is a border state and requires no training for a carry permit. I don't think that the good people of Georgia suffer any more problems with those who carry than we do here. I have asked those who support mandatory training to supply evidence to the contrary between TN/GA and other similar pairs of border states... nothing but the sound of crickets chirping.

What I think gets missed a lot are the most rudimentary issues that pertain to the specific gun, individual, how and where it is carried. Let's say a guy chooses a pocket gun. When does he learn that a pocket gun is rather useless in the pocket if he can't get it out of his pocket while sitting in his car getting car-jacked? This kind of Gun Carry 101 simple stuff isn't taught in Tennessee's mandatory training class.

For those who are new to carry, I think a one-on-one day with a good instructor would be well worth the time and cost. Not just for basic safety and gun handling, but for a basic overview of law and what are the most common issues and misunderstandings with the law. Much beyond that I'm not so sure of the cost/reward for average Joe.
Again, your comments address "concealed carry", which is a totally different situation from home defense.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:51 PM
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ChattanoogaPhil,
I can't disagree with you doubt about a significant difference between TN's mandatory and GA's no training. Other than some points on the use of lethal force, the parts of a handgun, the difference between a revolver and semi-auto, basic safety roles, and 50 rounds down range at distances of 3, 5, and 7 yards (maybe a couple at 10 yrs), we didn't do much. Parts of it were helpful to people who had very little or no experience with handguns.

I actually think one of the main reasons for mandatory handgun classes for permits (like TN's) is more political than anything else. Politicians can claim to voters on the fence who otherwise might not be comfortable with handgun carry that permit holders are required to go through mandatory training before receiving a permit. The debate over the recent proposal that just passed the State Senate (25-2) allowing open carry without permit to anyone who legally possesses a firearm is going to be interesting. Still need permit to conceal carry.
I think mandatory training is just one of those things that's easy to make an argument for without any facts, regardless if any facts exist or not, and difficult to argue against without being characterized as a lunatic who wants everyone running around with a gun in their hand without any knowledge of how to safely use it. Generally speaking, I think average Joe is able to somehow manage without government expertise in these matters.

Yup... our boys in Nashville are constantly dreaming up pro gun legislation. I support it based upon 2A principle, and also support doing away with the entire permit program. That said, the latest monthly report shows over 464,000 handgun carry permits issued in Tennessee. I never see anyone open carry.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:01 PM
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Training is vital. It can take many forms and can have different descriptions.

Call it "familiarization" for a new firearm to learn how it operates.

For those of us growing up with firearms were trained by our fathers (or other family members) and may overlook our training in the past.

So many new owners do not have his blessing and should have some basic training, review, familiarization, education, call it what you will to be safe, prudent, accurate and a asset to our group.

It does not have to be formal, but thorough and complete.
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:06 PM
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The problem with finding data on this is that it's often looking for data that can't be collected. Let me see if I can clarify that statement.

On the Air Force base, motorcyclists are required to wear an orange vest. The idea is that it will make them more visible. The problem is that you can't collect data on accidents that don't happen. So, do the vests prevent accidents? It's anyone's guess. We didn't have any motorcycle accidents before the vests were required and haven't had any since they were required. It's impossible to know if they made any difference.


The same could be said for gun training. Data can't be collected on things that didn't happen. Those who get training, tend to be more watchful. Therefore, they tend to be more likely to avoid altercations. This is universal. A person with training, tends to be more aware and therefore, tends to make themselves less likely to be a victim. They lock their doors, they have home alarms, they make their house less of a target. It's not 100%, but more likely. So, I would counter that a person with training is less likely to need to use that training because they make themselves less of a victim. You won't find any data to support that because it's impossible to collect data on stuff that didn't happen.
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:20 PM
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Whether one lives in a State that requires training or not, I feel some sort of training as much as one has the time and can afford to do is a good idea.

If for nothing else, than keeping familiar with their weapon. Just buying a pistol and throwing in a drawer is generally not conducive to a good reaction and response to a real life self defense situation.

There muscle memory to keep up, figuring out if your firearm is functioning properly, and if it will hit where you aim it. Not to mention if you holster and dress will work. It's a maintenance and upkeep thing.

With all that being said, training should not be a requirement but a responsible firearm owner will do so. Maybe even take some formal classes.
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:53 PM
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The problem with finding data on this is that it's often looking for data that can't be collected. Let me see if I can clarify that statement.
The data COULD be collected, it just isn't.

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On the Air Force base, motorcyclists are required to wear an orange vest. The idea is that it will make them more visible. The problem is that you can't collect data on accidents that don't happen. So, do the vests prevent accidents? It's anyone's guess. We didn't have any motorcycle accidents before the vests were required and haven't had any since they were required. It's impossible to know if they made any difference.
The vest don't prevent accidents (as evidenced by no change in results). They do however allow someone to feel good about "thinking" they have done something worthwhile...and perhaps even garner a few points with the upper level military brass.

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Data can't be collected on things that didn't happen. Those who get training, tend to be more watchful. Therefore, they tend to be more likely to avoid altercations. This is universal. A person with training, tends to be more aware and therefore, tends to make themselves less likely to be a victim. They lock their doors, they have home alarms, they make their house less of a target. It's not 100%, but more likely. So, I would counter that a person with training is less likely to need to use that training because they make themselves less of a victim. You won't find any data to support that because it's impossible to collect data on stuff that didn't happen.
In all honesty if I didn't carry concealed I would not spend the amount of time and money that I do on training. My home would be reasonably secured - as it was before I started carrying, and in the event of a break-in I would rely upon defending the door of our bedroom while waiting on police. Something that (IMO) does not demand training.
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:26 PM
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Data can't be collected on things that didn't happen.
No argument there. Let's look at it in a different way. There's hundreds of thousands of permit holders in Georgia running around without government mandated formal training. If it was that big of deal there would be blood running in the streets from permit holders shooting innocents or themselves. But ya can't report what isn't happening.

We're gun enthusiasts here, and I think it's easy to lose sight of the typical gun owner who rarely if ever goes to the range or practices in any way, but has a gun stashed in the nightstand drawer. Gary Kleck estimated up to 2.5 million uses of guns for self protection (not usually shot) per year. Critics say it is much lower, but in any event I think it's fair to say it's a big number. Now I can't say how many might have done better with formal training, but the sampling of folks who answered the survey, the overwhelming majority likely had no formal training or practiced regularly, somehow lived to tell about it and were not in jail.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:03 PM
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The data COULD be collected, it just isn't.
No, it's impossible to collect data on something that didn't happen.



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The vest don't prevent accidents (as evidenced by no change in results).
The lack of change in accidents only shows that the vests didn't cause accidents. It tells us exactly nothing about preventing accidents.



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In all honesty if I didn't carry concealed I would not spend the amount of time and money that I do on training.
There are many that have this same approach. So, I'll ask again, do you think that training adds no value to a person in protecting their home?

Obviously, I'm a little biased being an NRA certified instructor. Even so, I'd gladly run you through the NRA Personal Protection Inside The Home class. If at the end of the class you didn't learn anything to help you protect yourself at home, I'd not charge you for the class. In fact, I offer a full refund to any student taking any of my classes if they don't feel they got any value out of it.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:07 PM
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There's hundreds of thousands of permit holders in Georgia running around without government mandated formal training.
I can't argue with that. There's also millions of gun owners who haven't shot themselves or anyone else who've never had any formal training.

The point I'm getting at, and always will work toward, is that training is good. A decent training class can't make you worse, but not having training doesn't make you better.



I was going to say that all training is good, but that's simply not true. There are instructors out there that are teaching things that are not only wrong, they will get you killed. So, no training is better than wrong training.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:34 PM
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I can't argue with that. There's also millions of gun owners who haven't shot themselves or anyone else who've never had any formal training.

The point I'm getting at, and always will work toward, is that training is good. A decent training class can't make you worse, but not having training doesn't make you better.



I was going to say that all training is good, but that's simply not true. There are instructors out there that are teaching things that are not only wrong, they will get you killed. So, no training is better than wrong training.
I don't want to get into a "hair splitting contest" because I have a feeling that on matters related to handguns, self-defense, and training we would be in agreement on 95 out of 100 issues. Having said that, there is a difference between something (in this case: training) being "helpful" vs being "necessary". If handgun/shotgun ownership (for home defense use) were restricted to only those who've had training there would be a lot fewer guns in homes, and a lot more thieves still walking this earth.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:39 PM
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The point I'm getting at, and always will work toward, is that training is good. A decent training class can't make you worse, but not having training doesn't make you better.

I was going to say that all training is good, but that's simply not true. There are instructors out there that are teaching things that are not only wrong, they will get you killed. So, no training is better than wrong training.
I think you are right, and that's pretty much how I entered this thread saying... Unless you're dealing with a maniac like James Yeager, I don't think a person can go wrong with training and more training.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:05 PM
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I got the impression that the question was regarding should training be required to own a firearm?
Should you get training? Yes.
Should you practice with your firearm? Absolutely.
Should training be required to own a firearm? NO!

Do those of you who support required training to own a firearm realize that you're advocating a restriction on a Constitutional Right?
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:17 PM
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I got the impression that the question was regarding should training be required to own a firearm?
Should you get training? Yes.
Should you practice with your firearm? Absolutely.
Should training be required to own a firearm? NO!

Do those of you who support required training to own a firearm realize that you're advocating a restriction on a Constitutional Right?
The question is - "Are guns too dangerous for untrained individuals" (making them a danger to themselves and others)?
The question is in reference to people who have them FOR HOME DEFENSE - not concealed carry.

I say No, otherwise we would have an epidemic of people being shot or killed by the guns in their home
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:06 PM
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I don't want to get into a "hair splitting contest" .
With all due respect it looks like that's exactly what you want to do


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If handgun/shotgun ownership (for home defense use) were restricted to only those who've had training there would be a lot fewer guns in homes, and a lot more thieves still walking this earth.
By all means please feel free to quote any post in this thread that says that firearms ownership for home defense should be restricted to those who have had training
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:28 PM
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OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
You can buy this gear or rent it to set up your own realistic scenarios. LEOs use it all the time in their Force on Force training. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:25 AM
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You fellows might want to read this article in the current issue of American Handgunner: American Handgunner May/June Digital Edition Page 76 = if you turn to the index and click on: Gun Rights by Alan Korwin = Are carry-license trainers our enemy?.

Again, there are about a dozen states that do not require training to carry a firearm and there is no evidence to support the contention that folks with firearms, even those that carry them, are a greater danger to themselves or others (except for true miscreants) in those states then those in states that do require extensive training.

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:15 AM
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OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
Walk through the West Bank with a star of David on your tee shirt?
Walk through Compton with a Rebel Flag?
Take a walking tour of Iraq?
Or, tell my wife how much money I spend on guns and ammo every year!
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:22 AM
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Walk through the West Bank with a star of David on your tee shirt?
Walk through Compton with a Rebel Flag?
Take a walking tour of Iraq?
Or, tell my wife how much money I spend on guns and ammo every year!
Thanks for starting my day off with a big laugh....that is hilarious!!!
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:30 AM
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OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
The short answer, you can't. Don't understand me too fast, that's no slam on you or anyone else here. Trouble is, no matter how realistic the training might be, you know in the back of your mind you'll be going home when it's over. That's the difference between training and the real thing. Till it actually happens, (and let's hope it never does), you can't know how you'll respond.
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Old 04-14-2014, 08:49 AM
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The short answer, you can't. Don't understand me too fast, that's no slam on you or anyone else here. Trouble is, no matter how realistic the training might be, you know in the back of your mind you'll be going home when it's over. That's the difference between training and the real thing. Till it actually happens, (and let's hope it never does), you can't know how you'll respond.
Thats almost exactly what I said in post #54.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:57 PM
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The question is - "Are guns too dangerous for untrained individuals" (making them a danger to themselves and others)?
The question is in reference to people who have them FOR HOME DEFENSE - not concealed carry.

I say No, otherwise we would have an epidemic of people being shot or killed by the guns in their home
No offense and please excuse me if I'm wrong. But reading between the lines, I've gotten the impression that you are relatively new to this.

There are a lot of folks here who have spent decades in shooting, handling, studying, training and gathering experience in the world of firearms.

It is often good to sit back, read and consider their thoughts quietly.

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Old 04-14-2014, 02:10 PM
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If I ever (God forbid) have to use my gun for self defense I don't care where it is, I want every advantage I can have
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:10 PM
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No offense and please excuse me if I'm wrong. But reading between the lines, I've gotten the impression that you are relatively new to this.

There are a lot of folks here who have spent decades in shooting, handling, studying, training and gathering experience in the world of firearms.

It is often good to sit back, read and consider their thoughts quietly.

Great idea...and maybe enjoy a cup of coffee while you do.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:42 PM
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Great idea...and maybe enjoy a cup of coffee while you do.
I do, frequently. And like I said, if you're one of us who've been doing it for decades and I misinterpreted - I apologize.

I've been playing guitars even longer than I've been shooting and still learn stuff on the Martin forum, as I do here. I try to impart a bit occasionally, too.

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Old 04-14-2014, 08:27 PM
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I do, frequently. And like I said, if you're one of us who've been doing it for decades and I misinterpreted - I apologize.

I've been playing guitars even longer than I've been shooting and still learn stuff on the Martin forum, as I do here. I try to impart a bit occasionally, too.

Yep, for a few decades. No need to apologize...we all misinterpret things from time to time.

So...now you're talking guitars? My other love! Been playing since 1967. Professionally for about 6 years, but gave that up in the late 70's. Even had an opportunity to tour in Europe for a year in the back-up band of a Motown group. Favorite ax?....Fender Telecaster.
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Old 04-14-2014, 10:16 PM
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Cool! PM sent.

(of course, my point of view is it's your thread and you can drift it if you want.)

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Old 04-16-2014, 12:50 PM
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Default Very thought provoking indeed.

I didn't follow that link but I recognize the title and yes contrary to the title I agree with his theory as long people use common sense, exercise safe handling and storage. I also think he's referring to professional training and there are a lot of people protect their family & homes that have not had professional training and do just fine. Of course I am the sort that presumes everyone thinking about using a gun will use commonsense and do some in-depth research online or otherwise to educate themselves on the proper handling of a firearm before jumping in trigger finger first.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:57 AM
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There are plenty of examples of people defending themselves with no training whatsoever.

That said, a lot of people that have had perfect outcomes to bad situations and/or still alive because they had training. But those people don't know what they don't know.

Also, a lot of people have avoided having to shoot someone because they have had good training... which is of course the great irony of good training being put into practice.


My rule of thumb is... if you own multiple guns that total in cost more than you have spent being trained, you're doing it wrong.

I despise the idea of mandatory training, but I also believe it's our responsibility to get training.

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Old 04-17-2014, 08:22 AM
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I'm suggesting that there is no evidence to support the notion that IN HOME INVASSION CASES trained individuals fare any better than untrained.
The trained individual "should" have a higher percentage of shots that hit on target, but considering that the goal is to "end the threat" (which doesn't necessarily mean hitting the target) that doesn't make them better at defending themselves.
Any statistics would be marred by the simple fact that those who have had home invasion training will be more aware through their training how the majority of attacks happen. The natural reaction to that would be to minimize the chance of that happening and go and make their house more secure.


The simple awareness of threats is a huge start to personal security - avoidance is better than dealing with a threat.

Someone pointed out to me recently that he was actually a fairly confrontational guy... but since he started carrying a gun and took training... he understands that every encounter he has is an armed encounter.

Straight away, just by avoiding getting into stupid arguments in public that can be avoided, he has reduced his chances of being in a violent encounter drastically.

I think that's a good idea of why good training is important. Learning to avoid trouble, de-escalate trouble... as well as how to deal with it when it's unavoidable.

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Old 04-17-2014, 01:31 PM
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Also, a lot of people have avoided having to shoot someone because they have had good training... which is of course the great irony of good training being put into practice.
Not ironic, that's the goal. The best fight is no fight. Good training will help you avoid the fight as much as it helps survive it.


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My rule of thumb is... if you own multiple guns that total in cost more than you have spent being trained, you're doing it wrong.
I think I understand what you're getting at here, but I think this is over the top.

As an instructor I'll bet that I've spent more on training than 99% of the people here. Through my instructor training and classes I've taken just as a student, I have spent more than many have on their guns. Even so, what I've spent on training doesn't come close to the dollar figure I've spent on guns alone.

Besides, the numbers aren't really equal. An M&P is a fine defensive handgun. They are available for less than $600. Buy two and you've spent $1,200. A trip to a prestigious gun school will cost around $2K so, according to your formula, that's the right amount of training. What if I buy a Wilson Combat? Now I only have one gun and that trip to the same school is not enough now because it doesn't cost more than the gun? See, it doesn't track.

I think training should be recurring, just like practice. One trip to any school doesn't make anyone an expert. A training class a year would be great, but not everyone can do that.

I, like most here, think that training shouldn't be a mandatory prerequisite to owning a gun. However, a conscientious gun owner, who wants their gun for defense, will seek training rather than try to justify not having it.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:19 AM
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Not ironic, that's the goal. The best fight is no fight. Good training will help you avoid the fight as much as it helps survive it.


The act of carrying a gun for protection making you statistically less likely to need a gun for protection is definitely irony.

Doesn't make it illegitimate. Just something that often gets overlooked - in particular by anti-gun-rights people.


Quote:


I think I understand what you're getting at here, but I think this is over the top.

As an instructor I'll bet that I've spent more on training than 99% of the people here. Through my instructor training and classes I've taken just as a student, I have spent more than many have on their guns. Even so, what I've spent on training doesn't come close to the dollar figure I've spent on guns alone.

Besides, the numbers aren't really equal. An M&P is a fine defensive handgun. They are available for less than $600. Buy two and you've spent $1,200. A trip to a prestigious gun school will cost around $2K so, according to your formula, that's the right amount of training. What if I buy a Wilson Combat? Now I only have one gun and that trip to the same school is not enough now because it doesn't cost more than the gun? See, it doesn't track.

I think training should be recurring, just like practice. One trip to any school doesn't make anyone an expert. A training class a year would be great, but not everyone can do that.

I, like most here, think that training shouldn't be a mandatory prerequisite to owning a gun. However, a conscientious gun owner, who wants their gun for defense, will seek training rather than try to justify not having it.

My comment isn't an exact algorithm, it's more of a statement regarding those people that buy guns citing self defense and never/rarely train or take a class. You know, the guys that think a gun is a magic talisman and because they can shoot a piece of paper at 10 feet then they are good to go.

Still, I don't think it's unreasonable as a general statement. Most people I know that aren't instructors have spent more on instruction and practice than guns. Makes sense really to be able to use the thing than have more of the thing.

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:12 AM
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There are plenty of examples of people defending themselves with no training whatsoever.

That said, a lot of people that have had perfect outcomes to bad situations and/or still alive because they had training. But those people don't know what they don't know.

Also, a lot of people have avoided having to shoot someone because they have had good training... which is of course the great irony of good training being put into practice.


My rule of thumb is... if you own multiple guns that total in cost more than you have spent being trained, you're doing it wrong.

I despise the idea of mandatory training, but I also believe it's our responsibility to get training.

Some folks prefer collecting and playing with guns more than training to be soldiers. It's a difference in interests and priorities.

When something bad hapoens, most people will be a lot better off just being armed. Being trained will be a great edge in bad situations but the likelihood of plain jane civilians experiencing a situation where they have to shoot someone is terribly remote.

This remoteness will cause some people to shift their priorities and money to other things.


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Old 04-18-2014, 04:24 PM
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Some folks prefer collecting and playing with guns more than training to be soldiers. It's a difference in interests and priorities.
This is an unfair statement. No one is suggesting that people go out and become Rambo. Neither is anyone suggesting that tons of money be spent on training if all they want to do is collect and shoot at the range.

However, if a gun is going to be used for protection, training is a very good thing. My favorite quote from Jeff Cooper, "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." Jut because someone defended themselves after not having training doesn't invalidate the value of training.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:56 PM
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I remember taking the mandatory (and paid for!) safety driving classes while being a test driver. That was an awesome experience, lots of stuff learned and lots of fun doing so.
NOW, driving is a place where this country could do with some GOOD training!! I have always believed that EVERYONE should have to take a defensive driving course that takes a full week of classroom and on the track.

That would pay for itself in lives saved.
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:46 PM
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Some folks prefer collecting and playing with guns more than training to be soldiers. It's a difference in interests and priorities.
This thread is in the Concealed Carry and Self Defense Forum. If you believe concealed carry and self defense is playing soldiers, I don't understand why you are here.

If people like collecting and playing with guns, that's fine. That's not what anyone is talking about here. This about people that have guns primarily for self defense.

Even in the home, the idea of having a tool that you are not as sharp as you can be baffles me. Taking responsibility for protecting yourself and your family is a lifestyle choice and for most people a part of a larger lifestyle choice of self reliance.

Derogatorily calling the choice of taking responsibility of protecting yourself and your family "playing soldiers" completely baffles me.
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:50 PM
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NOW, driving is a place where this country could do with some GOOD training!! I have always believed that EVERYONE should have to take a defensive driving course that takes a full week of classroom and on the track.

That would pay for itself in lives saved.
I actually used to teach defensive driving. Personally, I don't understand in the chain of importance why people don't priorities that over owning a gun. I know the answer is guns are fun and driving is a chore for the vast majority of people, but still.

I sometimes open self defense classes asking how many people own fire extinguishers. The number is remarkably low each time given statistically a house fire is more likely to claim your life or your home than an assault. Driving... given how safety features in cars have improved so drastically, the chance of dying is lower than it has been but injury is still a huge threat and pretty much everyone drives.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
This is an unfair statement. No one is suggesting that people go out and become Rambo. Neither is anyone suggesting that tons of money be spent on training if all they want to do is collect and shoot at the range.



However, if a gun is going to be used for protection, training is a very good thing. My favorite quote from Jeff Cooper, "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." Jut because someone defended themselves after not having training doesn't invalidate the value of training.


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Originally Posted by PastureOfMuppets View Post
This thread is in the Concealed Carry and Self Defense Forum. If you believe concealed carry and self defense is playing soldiers, I don't understand why you are here.

If people like collecting and playing with guns, that's fine. That's not what anyone is talking about here. This about people that have guns primarily for self defense.

Even in the home, the idea of having a tool that you are not as sharp as you can be baffles me. Taking responsibility for protecting yourself and your family is a lifestyle choice and for most people a part of a larger lifestyle choice of self reliance.

Derogatorily calling the choice of taking responsibility of protecting yourself and your family "playing soldiers" completely baffles me.

Didn't mean to offend. And I'm somewhat surprised you took offense. I don't think you need to defend your decision to get trained. Be glad you are trained. I pray you'll never use it.

But there are a lot of people who can't afford the money or time to do so. And they too will very likely not use it. They would be funneling that unspent cash into other priorities.


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Last edited by 340PDOperator; 04-18-2014 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:09 PM
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The fact is, if you follow self-defense shootings, a startling number of people have never fired a gun of any kind until they successfully used one to defend their lives.
For 25 years or so I worked with an organization in Milwaukee that served poor and sub-poor women who were being victimized by violent "significant others."
The issue was never whether the women could safely store and use a firearm. It was ALWAYS whether they had the will to shoot the*^&*&* *******. who had deceived them into thinking the beatings they and their children received were their fault and not that of the abuser.

We could never recommend that any of them get a firearm (there were sources that would provide them for free) until we were convinced they could resist the &^$^^'s constant relentless lies as to them being responsible for his violence. Even educated, intelligent women would repeatedly fall prey to these vicious monsters, over and over again.

It was imperative to get them to recognize their own self worth so that they would really shoot to defend themselves and their children.
I remember one terrible case where the violent soon-to-be-former spouse entered the woman's house while her children were there, and she had gun in a kitchen drawer, but he succeeded in nearly beating the life out of her. Even facing what she knew was going to be a potentially deadly beating and possibly her own death and that of her children, she could not shoot him.
It ended when two things happened. 1: her father and a brother staked out -the house and when the about-to-be-former spouse showed up they showed him a couple shotguns. (Yes, she had an injunction against him. A cop has to witness the event before they will take action.)
2: He had his buddies following her to and from work and the childrens' schools, and drove their pickups through her yard at night, tearing up the sod while blowing their horns and yelling obscenities. The father and brother got pix and visited the homes of these ^&#^$holes and showed them to the spouses.
The point is, training made no difference. She needed the will to fight someone who had successfully bullied her into submission.

As I see it, of course everyone should get training in safety and marksmanship. But to actually use a gun to lethally defend one's life requires will. I don't know how to train that.
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:24 PM
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Does a 20 page booklet, Driver's Ed class, and computerized DMV test make a competent driver? Not any more than a NRA course certificate of completion and newly printed CCW permit makes a competent shooter. Practice and continuing education is what makes a safe and skilled firearms owner.

During my collecting over the last few decades, I have picked up several S&W orphans ... little used revolvers that had been relegated to desk drawers and shoe boxes, waiting for a chance to be fired as intended. I cringe to think about their respective owners, who felt the mere presence of a firearm was enough to ensure their safety. A firearm that has not been practiced with is about as useful in the hands of a neophyte as a frying pan or bowling bowl when it comes to self defense scenarios. And I dread to consider the collective fate of many recently purchased handguns by first time owners/shooters whose inexperience may steer them toward a belief that the firearm alone is some magical entity that masters itself.
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