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Old 04-11-2014, 11:47 AM
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Default How important do YOU think training is?

Saw the following video which I though was thought provoking. Evidence supports what he is saying but I wanted to hear from you gentlemen.

Guns Are Too Dangerous 4 Untrained Civilians - YouTube
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:12 PM
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I agree. One does not have to go to Gun Site or wherever to be able to be safe with a gun or to protect themselves. I think some of that training is over done as in doing building searches and stairwell clearing. If your not a cop or an operative then it is mostly unnecessary. Take out several bowling pins and set them at various ranges and angles and go to work. I thank most people shooting for self defense shoot to far away. Bring those bowling pins in close and learn to shoot fast. That type of self instruction will go a long way to making you familiar with the gun and therefore a more safe gun handler.

I am in favor of a good hunter safety class, however in instilling the 10 rules of gun safety .
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:42 PM
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I also agree. However I also just took a 1 hr pvt class with an instructor, and I also plan to take a CPL 2 class which goes above an beyond the basic requirements of the State. However, if the training is not related to CC or basic marksmanship, I don't really see the point. I hope I NEVER have to fire my defense handgun, but I bet if I do, it will be at arms length and over before I know it (think Martin/Zimmerman).

I think if you carry a gun in public, you owe it to yourself and to the general public to stay competent and proficient with your CCW. My worst possible fear is to miss a bad guy and hit an innocent bystander.

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Old 04-11-2014, 01:20 PM
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I have yet to see any documentation that there is a difference in result between the states that require training for a permit and those that don't.

Of course, that does not mean that folks in those states actually get any more, or less, training. And I am sure that it is better to understand the law and to practice shooting, etc. then not. But when the situation actually occurs, and action must be taken in a moment, it may not matter. Hard to know.

Ken
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:22 PM
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I’ve said this before but I used to think I did pretty good practicing on my own until I got a chance to attend a professionally instructed class. I wasn’t 5 minutes into the class before I realized how much I didn’t know. It wasn’t until I got some hands on competent professional training that I realized how many areas I was completely over looking.

Once I started getting some regular training and corrective criticisms my skill level increased exponentially.

That said I am against any mandatory training standard for firearms ownership
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:29 PM
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I'm in IL and have had my CCL for a little over a month. I wonder how many people are going to get their CCL, carry on at a least a semi-regular basis, but not shoot their EDC on even a semi-regular basis?
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:38 PM
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Anyone who say's no training is needed is a fool or ignorant. Training, as long as it is applicable and good done by competent instructors will save your life. You will ALWAYS fall back on your training, good or bad. My bride and will both be taking refresher combat courses in the near future as merely qualifying or range time is not training. It certainly helps with familiarity with the weapon and target acquiring but more is needed.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:46 PM
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Training is always good. Yes, it is expensive but I think we need to train on a regular basis. No matter what it is, not just with firearms. It's a life experience and we all have just one. There's always something you can take home from a training class and you can have a lot of fun too.

I remember taking the mandatory (and paid for!) safety driving classes while being a test driver. That was an awesome experience, lots of stuff learned and lots of fun doing so.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:48 PM
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Default BEEN DOING IT WRONG FOR FOR ALMOST 40 YEARS

Take it from me, a lesson or 2 early on would have made me a better shot than I am today, MUCH FASTER, with much less ammo spent doing things wrong. Money and time well spent.
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:07 PM
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I think it depends on the individual. If a person is strongly analytical there is much to be accomplished with videos on proper shooting techniques as well as safety. One thing that bothers me is the number of people who attend a "training" class and do not follow up with good quality practice. They quickly forget & go back to the old, bad habits. I think participating in competition like IDPA or USPSA provides a motivation to continue to improve and maintain proper gun handling as well as proficiency. It is easy to spot the people who have competed. They have a much more developed sense of where the pistol is than many of those that don't. They have a standardize form of safety rather than what uncle Jim thought was right.
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by poordevil View Post
I agree. One does not have to go to Gun Site or wherever to be able to be safe with a gun or to protect themselves. I think some of that training is over done as in doing building searches and stairwell clearing. If your not a cop or an operative then it is mostly unnecessary. Take out several bowling pins and set them at various ranges and angles and go to work. I thank most people shooting for self defense shoot to far away. Bring those bowling pins in close and learn to shoot fast. That type of self instruction will go a long way to making you familiar with the gun and therefore a more safe gun handler.

I am in favor of a good hunter safety class, however in instilling the 10 rules of gun safety .
There are plenty of reasons to do those searches unless your house is just one big open space square. You might not be doing any entry but if your house has floors, stairs, corners..et...etc. ..This is quite useful. Standing in an open space shooting bowling pins directly in front of you is no different than shooting at paper targets. If I heard a loud noise in the middle of the night in the basement I have 3 floors and 2 stairwells to clear and neither are straight down

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Old 04-11-2014, 03:00 PM
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Didn't look at the link as yet.
This is an issue with two distinct parts.
First, there is the gun handling part which encompasses operation, maintenance and marksmanship.
Second, there is the legal red tape.
Rules of engagement, who what and when to shoot. Where to carry, where not to carry. The laws where you stand

The first part you'll get a mixed response from me.
I grew up with guns. There are not many that I do not understand, to include exotic futuristic concepts such as the rail gun and coil gun.
there are instructors who would learn more from someone like me, than we'd learn from an instructor.
Then I see the unwashed masses, who think they can get the job done with the ability to put 10 small caliber rounds into the area of a 5 gallon bucket at 15 feet.
They would certainly benefit from some training.

The legal side of it is nearly a universal yes. training is required.
The law where you stand can change dramatically while you walk down the road, even more so as you drive.
I don't care if you can stack 240 grain 44's on top of eachother at 100 yards off hand, You can handle your sidearm but that law thing might make you look like a total pleeb
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Old 04-11-2014, 04:35 PM
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I did not look at the link (yet).

I have attended defensive handgun trainings, most recently an "art of the snub" workshop with Michael deBethencort, who specializes in snub training.

I also have attended knife fighting workshops, as well as hands-on physical defensive "stuff".

Most all of my handgun "work" or practice is dedicated to self defense "stuff", and is close up, focused, and fast.

Most training is "good" training, and preferable to firing from 25 yd line at paper, and fooling oneself into thinking you are "good' with a handgun.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:29 PM
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I want to remind everyone that training is only as useful as you make it. Like a gun, your training will only help you achieve your potential if you work it, learn it, apply it, and actually gain from it. There are far too many yahoos, both pretending to train others, and learning to train from professionals, out there who can make the experience worthless.

With the rise of "main streaming" and all the new kids in the "gun culture" comes a slew of people with more money than sense who will throw perfectly good money away on perfectly useless gimmicks, "tactical" equipment that actually reduces the effectiveness of guns, and also sign up for courses from every Tom, Dick, and Harry that claims false credentials, exaggerates credentials, or will tell you how being a traffic cop in a rich small community for 6 months qualifies him as an "operator". There are to many uninformed people, with too much money to feed a frenzy of junk guns, parts, and bad trainers, so its important you investigate potential trainers to make sure they are reputable, and not just some fancy looking goofballs willing to charge you big money for worthless lessons.

Then we have to take issue with those who simply want to be posers. They buy expensive, top end guns and optics on guns they don't learn to shoot, just to look cool. Same thing with training, there is always some rich person willing to blow some bucks to get a training certificate and not take the training seriously. Getting a gold star is important to these people, not learning an important lesson.

Lastly is the false impression people get that training classes automatically qualify you. Remember that a certificate and training lessons are as good as a gun; only as useful as you make them. Just because you took a class doesn't mean you took something valuable out, YOU have to put the work in and want it, and get it. The certificate or the pat on the back or the receipt for the service are of no value to you, unless that certificate is bullet proof. Only the gains you make, and apply count. Don't let the lessons and classes you take let you fall into complacency, they can be how some people treat a weapon in that they magically think it will ward off evil.

A friend of mine was a rich kid, growing up with world class golfers teaching him how to become a pro golfer. Despite all of this, he is a terrible golfer. Lessons learned, it boils down to your natural talent, dedication, aptitude, and training, with training only releasing potential, not really making the person better, and that training can be frittered away if not used correctly. There are men who have shot more rounds, attended more classes, with better guns, who can't beat others who do far less, who can learn, do learn, and apply themselves.

But it can't be reinforced enough that if you are not going to take lessons seriously and learn from them, don't waste your time and money, or the seat in the course. Its your time, money, and education, don't fritter it away.

Training a good thing, perhaps a requirement for CCW is not the worst idea. In many ways it does fulfill the part of regulated militia by requiring people to become better shooters and potentially better militia members. Should it be a requirement for owning a gun? No. But we should be doing more to promote marksmanship and general military capability of the general population, including promotion of high grade training classes, and perhaps expansion of good programs like the CMP.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:40 PM
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What I remembered from the video was the impression that he was confusing owning a firearm with using a firearm in self defense. It seemed like he was arguing that people don't need training to own firearms safely, which is true, but he also was lumping self defense into that idea. The comment that sparked the video was to the effect that a person buying a gun for self defense without getting any training was going to get themselves killed if they get into a fight. It seems he took it as saying that a person OWNING a gun without getting training will bet them killed. I suggest analyzing his argument on that basis.
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Old 04-11-2014, 06:05 PM
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Speaking from experience and observation, until one has experienced the "fight or flight"response, training is a point that is just a topic of discussion.
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Old 04-11-2014, 06:17 PM
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Most people can benefit from some training in gun safety, handling and legal matters but equally important is "mental rehearsal".
Think of your own daily situations and play "what ifs" in your head.
If you haven't role played in your mind as to what you should do in each situation, how you are going to react in an actual fight or flight experience will be any one's guess.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:16 PM
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Speaking from experience and observation, until one has experienced the "fight or flight"response, training is a point that is just a topic of discussion.
One thing that combat taught me....was that good training DOES usually kick in and "you fight like you train" is mostly true!
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:02 PM
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I guess I'll have agree with the Marshall that training isn"t necessary for a citizen to own a gun. The problem comes in when the citizen buys ammo and loads it.

I don't think the importance of someone showing a new gun owner how it operates and rigid adherence to the basic safety rules can be overestimated. I've owned guns for a long time but I would not think about buying a new one for defense and not at least shooting it enough to make sure its reliable.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:08 PM
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I must start by saying that Since it was 'Yankee Marshal' doing the video, I didn't watch it. I can't stand the guy.

Training of some sort, whether it be only Intro to shooting, or going on to Defensive Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun classes is always a wise purchase. There are a LOT of 'Self Taught' people out there at the local ranges that know nothing of firearm safety (ie: finger on the trigger as soon as they pick the weapon up, not keeping it pointed down range, etc), let alone the rest of the fundamentals.

Practicing with bad fundamentals won't make someone better, it will only ingrain those bad habits, waste ammunition and money. If anyone wants to waste money (or ammunition), send it to me!
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:25 PM
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There are plenty of reasons to do those searches unless your house is just one big open space square. You might not be doing any entry but if your house has floors, stairs, corners..et...etc. ..This is quite useful. Standing in an open space shooting bowling pins directly in front of you is no different than shooting at paper targets. If I heard a loud noise in the middle of the night in the basement I have 3 floors and 2 stairwells to clear and neither are straight down

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Some would say that if you're confident that what you heard was someone entering your house, the wisest course of action would be to arm yourself, gather the family, take up a defensive position with cover...and call the police - NOT clearing the house.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:38 PM
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I would vote for at least a basic NRA training class so people will know basic safety. That safety , is for others as well. I'm sure you have all been to the range and seen some careless individual. Pretty scary.
Training is always good. What most people do not realize is that the basic training gives you the knowledge to learn. Like going to school. It teaches the fundamentals for you to go out and learn the job, what ever it is.
There is a lot to learn about using a gun safely, especially in a SD situation.
If you can't afford it , there is a lot on You Tube, Pro training vids.
People with the attitude of that knuckle head in the video can be dangerous.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:38 PM
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II've owned guns for a long time but I would not think about buying a new one for defense and not at least shooting it enough to make sure its reliable.
Yet many people do exactly that...and successfully defend themselves with the same gun. Locally, we've had no less than 10 instances of this in 2014, with 5 of them fatally wounding the threat. When interviewed by the media only 1 of them said they had any training. One person had just got the gun two weeks prior and was able to fend off 3 home invaders...one of whom was armed with a gun too!

Am I advocating "not training"? Absolutely not! I try to take a class once per year (in addition to monthly shooting sessions). Yet there are countless recorded accounts of people saying that they had never even fired their gun before shooting at the threat, and though I wish they'd put 3 rounds center mass each time, they were able to stop the threat....and after all, isn't that the goal?
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:15 PM
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I think training helps with awareness and can teach you good habits but unless you're in an active military unit or swat team, these skills can be perishable. Which leads to the cycle of having to retrain and re sharpen skills. And that equals money. Which most people don't have.


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Old 04-11-2014, 11:18 PM
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Yet many people do exactly that...and successfully defend themselves with the same gun. Locally, we've had no less than 10 instances of this in 2014, with 5 of them fatally wounding the threat. When interviewed by the media only 1 of them said they had any training. One person had just got the gun two weeks prior and was able to fend off 3 home invaders...one of whom was armed with a gun too!



Am I advocating "not training"? Absolutely not! I try to take a class once per year (in addition to monthly shooting sessions). Yet there are countless recorded accounts of people saying that they had never even fired their gun before shooting at the threat, and though I wish they'd put 3 rounds center mass each time, they were able to stop the threat....and after all, isn't that the goal?

They call the gun the "great equalizer" for a reason. If you can point and pull a trigger, the gun takes physical impediment, age difference, and gender difference out of the picture. It's definitely easier to learn to shoot and defend oneself with a gun compared to a sword or with martial arts.


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Old 04-12-2014, 08:11 AM
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Speaking from experience and observation, until one has experienced the "fight or flight"response, training is a point that is just a topic of discussion.
^^+^^ Precisely. While I'm a firm believer that you'll perform to the level of your training, there's no substitute for experience. Unless you've been deployed military in combat or a LEO that's been involved in a stress situation, you don't know how you'll respond when the shooting starts.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:19 AM
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I think training in the use of a firearm and the laws governing the use or threatened use of Deadly Physical Force is important for any citizen who owns a firearm. Having said that, tactical training of the sort LEO's, fugitive apprehension teams, special operators, etc., receive is unwarranted and potentially dangerous as it may bring out the "Mall Ninja" in the neophyte. Just my $.02. YMMV.


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Old 04-12-2014, 08:24 AM
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Some would say that if you're confident that what you heard was someone entering your house, the wisest course of action would be to arm yourself, gather the family, take up a defensive position with cover...and call the police - NOT clearing the house.
And some would say are you sure of what you heard?

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Old 04-12-2014, 09:29 AM
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I am in total agreement that everyone who owns a handgun for self defense needs to Train with it.
I am a big fan of shooting a Defensive Pistol Match every month. The match will reinforce your gun handling skills. You will get practice loading and unloading, as well as clearing malfunctions. You also get in Trigger Time on your handgun.

We have Instructors who use our Range for Training. I have been impressed with most of them. Tactical Analisis Group "TAG" put on a Basic Handgun Course last month. I was on site during most of the Class. This was a Follow On to the CCW Class. Even the experianced could have benifited from the course. Going back over how to do things the right way once in a while is a good thing.

Last Saturday we had several new shooters show up at our Reactive Steel Match. One of our Bench Rest Shooters and his wife had gotten Carry Permits. They also bought a pair of compact semi autos. After the match he was back shopping for a more shootable handgun.
Lesson learned here. You need to shoot what you carry. Shooting in a match he figured out that it was hard to get a grip on. It was not real user friendly to operate. It recoiled hard. Short sight radius was hard to shoot well.

I shoot what I carry. I have a 442 Pro that I have had a couple years that still looks new. Why??? It lives in the gun safe most of the time. I am getting ready to head to town. I will be putting my 2" SP101 on my belt. I like shooting it, and my 2 Inch K's, my 3" K's, and my 3" GP100's a lot more. They are pleasant to shoot, and I shoot them well.

Training will let you know in a hurry if what you are carrying is the best choice. The smaller and more complicated the equipment, the more you need to train with it.

Bob
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:24 AM
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Bob R1. I like you comments and out look on all of it. Aside from formal training and organized events it is important that you continue to train on your own. Staying familiar with your gun weather it be your carry or for home defense is important. Regular time at the range can keep you efficient at loading or unloading a mag, clearing issues such as FT feed FT fire, FT eject. etc. Some times buying ****** ammo is a good thing. It forces you to deal with those issues. Practice makes muscle memory.
Think about it, you may have to do it in poor light or dark or you don't have your glasses. The bad guy won't give you a minute.

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Old 04-12-2014, 10:25 AM
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The following is my opinion based on my experience and observing others over the years.

I have spent a considerable amount of time studying the use of deadly force over the years. Other than family, guns are my life.
This does not however make me an expert.

Having worked part time at three local gun shops for the last ten or so years, I have seen people do things that could be considered stupid or downright ignorant.

I've seen people shoot themselves. Darn near shoot others. And hit everything other than their target.

In my observations the problem areas are:

Administrative handling.
Knowing the laws regarding concealed carry and the use of force.
Lack of quality training.
The right mindset and attitude.

It is my opinion that everyone except law enforcement be required to have ADVANCED training. A basic course is not enough.

When we consider that with the training that law enforcement has and they have a hit rate of less than 50%, why would we not require advanced training for the concealed carrier? And that percentage goes down in low light shootings.

The problem is, by mandating any type of training, we give more control to the government. The other problem is that people don't know or care that quality training is part of a well rounded concealed carry package.

My point is that training should not be mandated by government. It should be a choice. A choice made by those responsible enough to realize that they need training.

Most adults have a drivers license. Some can drive well and some should take the bus. Some know they are good drivers and others think they are. Even with government control, people are killed on our countries roads daily.

So again, it should be a personal choice. Hopefully a choice by a person that is completely serious and dedicated to the concealed carry package.
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:05 AM
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I've shot enough in various scenarios over my 50 odd years of shooting that I'd like to think my "training" makes me worthy of my brother's dream.

In the dream, he told me a BG had come into the house, had my short brother in front of him, was holding a gun to him and I was across the room pointing my gun at the BG aiming over my brother's head/shoulders. My brother told me that in the dream situation he & I locked eyes and he said "Do it."
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
It is my opinion that everyone except law enforcement be required to have ADVANCED training.
To be honest, many serious shooters have much more "training" and experience shooting than the average police officer.

This is NOT a derogatory comment on LEOs!

It is a simple fact. Most even mildly competitive shooters burn more rounds in a year than the average LEO will burn in their entire time in the academy, additional entry into an agency, and lifetime of semi-annual qualifications.

Obviously there are agencies which demand a lot more training and re-qualification than others. But there are hundreds of smaller towns/cities/counties employing thousands of LEOs whose gun training and experience is not that involved.

When I was a range-master in a rural area, where some of the small town police agencies came to do their periodic training/firing qualifications, it was readily apparent that many police officers are not necessarily gun folk.
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:00 PM
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From Policeone.com, in an article by David Grossi entitled,

Police firearms training: How often should you be shooting?

Quote:
At a recent use-of-force class I was instructing for a Public Risk Management group, the topic of firearms training frequency came up. The discussion was prompted by the fact that during the latest round of FBI suspect interviews conducted for the third book in the Officer Assaulted and Murdered trilogy (“Violent Encounters”), it was revealed that those suspects believed that police officers trained between two and three times a week with their firearms. In reality, most police departments only train about two times a year, averaging less than 15 hours annually. In contrast to our frequency of training, those same suspects revealed that they practiced on average 23 times a year (or almost twice a month) with their handguns.

During a poll taken during this class which represented about a half dozen Florida law enforcement agencies, I asked how many train more than twice a year. No hands went up. When asked how many train or qualify with their duty guns only once a year. Everyone raised their hands. Hence, the genesis for this article.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:06 PM
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"How important is training?" Oh, IMHO, no more so than the importance of your continued life. ............... Big Cholla
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:40 PM
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You don't have to be a competitive shooter to shoot more rnds than many LEOs. I have talked to many Chicago officers who only shoot once before their yearly qualify for a fearly total of 100 rnds. Really?
The requalification is very easy. It is not much different than the test for a CCL. Which is 70% of 30 shots, 10 at each 3,7,and 15 Yrds. at a 24 x 40 in. B27 target with a full size silhouette.

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Old 04-12-2014, 05:21 PM
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Of course training is important. I'd love to have more of it. I can't afford it. It's extremely rare for me to be able to find or afford .38 Special practice ammo or range time. I'm on a very small fixed income in retirement. I doubt I'm the only old guy living on Social Security and a tiny pension who is in this situation.

But I'm not going to stop carrying a gun. I'll soon supplement it with a canister of a good OC stream product--a pit bull mix belonging to a neighbor tried to get into my apartment and eat my little dog yesterday--but a pocket-carried J-frame will remain my final defensive option. I'm old and half-crippled and walk with a cane, and look like an easy target until you look me in the eye.

Further training or not, I'll be packing. I don't see a choice.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:33 PM
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How easily (and quickly) a thread drifts away from the original topic.

The question was NOT-is it good to have training? [That's a no-brainer]...the question was - does NOT getting immediate training after purchasing a firearm make the person a danger to themselves/others?

My two-cents?: I don't see that it necessarily makes them any more dangerous than a trained individual. Keep in mind, we are not talking about ccw but rather home defense purposes. The people I know personally who have guns in their home but don't train ALSO don't handle the guns on a routine basis. It's just there "in case". If the need to use it arises, I don't think they are any more of a danger to themselves or family than any other gun owner, and there are no stats that say otherwise.

People who train (and thus handle their guns more frequently) are more likely to experience some kind of negligent discharge, possibly resulting injury to themselves or a loved one.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
How easily (and quickly) a thread drifts away from the original topic.

The question was NOT-is it good to have training? [That's a no-brainer]...the question was - does NOT getting immediate training after purchasing a firearm make the person a danger to themselves/others?

My two-cents?: I don't see that it necessarily makes them any more dangerous than a trained individual. Keep in mind, we are not talking about ccw but rather home defense purposes. The people I know personally who have guns in their home but don't train ALSO don't handle the guns on a routine basis. It's just there "in case". If the need to use it arises, I don't think they are any more of a danger to themselves or family than any other gun owner, and there are no stats that say otherwise.

People who train (and thus handle their guns more frequently) are more likely to experience some kind of negligent discharge, possibly resulting injury to themselves or a loved one.
Sorry, but anyone who buys a gun - especially a handgun - for the first time (or inherits and keeps or has a visit from Santa Claus...), keeps it and ever intends to be able to use it and who doesn't train is a dangerous fool.

Anyone who thinks that being shown how to load & unload the gun, put the safety (if applicable) on & off, by the guy behind the counter selling them the gun, is all they need to know, then goes home and says "NOW, I have a home defense gun" is delusional. A handgun is not a magic wand.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:55 PM
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Saw the following video which I though was thought provoking. Evidence supports what he is saying but I wanted to hear from you gentlemen.

Guns Are Too Dangerous 4 Untrained Civilians - YouTube
Grandmas have been driving off and dispatching criminals with the old Model Tens they keep in their underwear drawers for a very long time now. A basic understanding of the function and safe handling of the weapon, combined with a willingness to use it, covers 95% of what's necessary. Graduation from a tactical school might improve real world results by another 5%.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:13 PM
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So now, I finally went and looked at the video.

IF the OP means "training" ONLY to apply to "trained by a professional" as the bozo in that video repeatedly says, and the OP means that people do not need that "training" - fine. No problemo.

However, if "training" means practice and learning how (through experience) to safely and reasonably accurately handle and shoot your handgun, you need it, which is my point above.

That "training" can come from your dad, your big brother, your knowledgeable friend/neighbor OR even from some good books combined with some real range time. But without some real "training" (i.e., acquiring some degree of knowledge & skill) however you get it, a handgun is more dangerous than not... Our beloved granny-shooting-the-bad-guy notwithstanding.

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Old 04-12-2014, 07:29 PM
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So now, I finally went and looked at the video.

IF the OP means "training" ONLY to apply to "trained by a professional" as the bozo in that video repeatedly says, and the OP means that people do not need that "training" - fine. No problemo.

However, if "training" means practice and learning how (through experience) to safely and reasonably accurately handle and shoot your handgun, you need it, which is my point above.

That "training" can come from your dad, your big brother, your knowledgeable friend/neighbor OR even from some good books combined with some real range time. But without some real "training" (i.e., acquiring some degree of knowledge & skill) however you get it, a handgun is more dangerous than not... Our beloved granny-shooting-the-bad-guy notwithstanding.

Exactly, it's just hard for me to imagine someone who has never used a firearm going into a gun shop, buying a gun, taking it home, and using it without anything but maybe a manual. That was the scenario Marshall seemed to me to be describing. Now, you do what you've got to do to protect yourself but someone who starts messing with a loaded gun, especially a semi-auto pistol, and no training at all is asking for trouble.

If his point was that you don't have to have formal training or military experience to use a pistol effectively, then I'll agree. That type of training is desirable but one doesn't need to forgo the use of a firearm for defense until he/she receives it.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:50 PM
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Exactly, it's just hard for me to imagine someone who has never used a firearm going into a gun shop, buying a gun, taking it home, and using it without anything but maybe a manual. That was the scenario Marshall seemed to me to be describing. Now, you do what you've got to do to protect yourself but someone who starts messing with a loaded gun, especially a semi-auto pistol, and no training at all is asking for trouble.

If his point was that you don't have to have formal training or military experience to use a pistol effectively, then I'll agree. That type of training is desirable but one doesn't need to forgo the use of a firearm for defense until he/she receives it.
Regardless to how hard it is for you to imagine - it happens all the time. Not only the "grandmas" are firing for the first time in a self defense situation, but many who aren't even close to being considered old.

As I said in an earlier post, there are 10 cases this year alone in the area where I live of EXACTLY that occurring. The gun owners even admitted as much when questioned by local media, and as far as we know the only person they proved to be a danger to was the thief trying to rob them - 5 of which were killed. So think what you like, imagine what you like, but facts are facts.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:20 PM
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I don't buy this lack of training is a good thing BS. ANYBODY can pull a trigger and get lucky.

For example, some people think they are good drivers because they went from point A to B. HOW they got from point A to B is what counts.

You don't pick up a set of clubs and play a round or two and be good at it. If you stink, you need instruction and practice.

I'm willing to bet that most people also had training wheels on their bikes when they first started riding it.

To advocate that training is not necessary is irresponsible and it's sets a bad example. A simple "familiarization" is not enough.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:42 PM
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Perhaps this illustration will make my point more apparent for you:

Person "A" goes to the local gun range and rents revolver they were told would make a decent home defense gun. After shooting a box they decide to purchase the gun new, along with a box of jhp ammo. They load and fire 5 rounds of JHP down range. Once home, they load 5 rounds and the gun goes in the nightstand drawer ...never to be touched again unless needed. Two years pass and they have had no "need" to use the gun, and of course any benefit of the few rounds they fired has long since vanished into the wind.

Person "B" buys the exact same gun in the same manner, but decides to make time each month to go to the range and shoot. Over the two years time they even take a class or two in an effort to learn and refine their skill.

Now. Which of the two posses a greater danger to themselves/others?
As crazy as you will probably think this sounds - I say it's person "B". Since "B" has handled his/her gun AT LEAST 24 times over the two years, that represents 24+ opportunities for something bad to happen. Since person "A" has not, and WILL not be touching their gun unless needed there is "zero" opportunity for them to harm someone.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:46 PM
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I don't buy this lack of training is a good thing BS. ANYBODY can pull a trigger and get lucky.

For example, some people think they are good drivers because they went from point A to B. HOW they got from point A to B is what counts.

You don't pick up a set of clubs and play a round or two and be good at it. If you stink, you need instruction and practice.

I'm willing to bet that most people also had training wheels on their bikes when they first started riding it.

To advocate that training is not necessary is irresponsible and it's sets a bad example. A simple "familiarization" is not enough.
Who said lack of training was a good thing?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:54 PM
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Unless you've been deployed military in combat or a LEO that's been involved in a stress situation, you don't know how you'll respond when the shooting starts.
OK for those of use who are not LEOs and not military, How do we simulate the fight or flight to get realistic training?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:58 PM
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It is my opinion that everyone except law enforcement be required to have ADVANCED training. A basic course is not enough.
Here again, this topic is not geared toward concealed carry, but rather home defense. If ADVANCED training were made a requirement the result would be a reduction in the number of people arming themselves due to the inability (as SHOULDAZAGGED stated) or unwillingness to pay for such training. That would NOT be a good thing.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentucky Dave View Post
So now, I finally went and looked at the video.

IF the OP means "training" ONLY to apply to "trained by a professional" as the bozo in that video repeatedly says, and the OP means that people do not need that "training" - fine. No problemo.

However, if "training" means practice and learning how (through experience) to safely and reasonably accurately handle and shoot your handgun, you need it, which is my point above.

That "training" can come from your dad, your big brother, your knowledgeable friend/neighbor OR even from some good books combined with some real range time. But without some real "training" (i.e., acquiring some degree of knowledge & skill) however you get it, a handgun is more dangerous than not... Our beloved granny-shooting-the-bad-guy notwithstanding.

And after watching that video, I have decided that I'll have whatever that little dude had.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:15 PM
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Who said lack of training was a good thing?
Don't mind me. Just having a senior moment.
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