OK so as not to about being stopped and carrying I have a different question.

If you are a passenger in a motor vehicle would you speak out to tell the LE that you are licensed and are carrying. I would not unless I’m asked to exit the vehicle. I also make sure my hands are always in sight of LE.

LE what are your opinions of pulling someone over, would you feel better if you were told a passenger had their permit and were carrying. I know if asked by LE if any firearms were in the vehicle you would be required to divulge this information. But what if the driver didn’t know the passenger was carrying how would that be handled if the LE found out the passenger had a firearm and the driver didn’t say there was because they didn’t know.

Just wondering about this as I don’t remember it being brought up whereas being a driver has many times.

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Psalm 23:4

I've been retired almost 18 yrs. but most street cops do not like surprises. IMHO it's always best to divulge the info but others may disagree, as they are free to do.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I have been the passenger, twice, carrying. Both times I told the LE I was licensed, my handgun was on my right side, and asked "What would you like me to do?" One asked me to" let him see it", and the other one said "nothing, but thanks for telling me." They both "thanked" me for telling them.

I'm with Old Cop," they don't like surprises" and what in the world would I have to lose by offering the info?

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

I would probably handle it the way you suggested, keep quiet unless asked to exit the vehicle. In most circumstances that I can recall, on a basic traffic stop, my business was conducted with the driver. I did not appreciate passengers who butted in, or got involved in the traffic stop. If directly asked about weapons in the vehicle you would be well advised to answer truthfully, of course. Personally I was never threatened by the idea of armed citizens, even if I was in the process of issuing a traffic ticket. I worked in a "shall issue" state, so it was fairly common to deal with that situation. While others feel differently, my belief was that anyone who went through the vetting process of a concealed weapons permit would not likely ever be a threat to me. The only caveat is the law in your state: Does it require you to inform law enforcement if you are carrying? That's going to be the deciding factor.

If I pull a car over, and for whatever reason, and I have to pull the driver out because I discover that he has dope on him, or in in the car, I'm pulling everyone else out and patting them down too. God help them if I find the gun before they tell me that they are legally carrying one...

I would pull the gun out and aim it at the driver and tell the cop, "don't worry, write the ticket...I got him covered."

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Ahhh Hollywood, you gotta love it.

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Quando omni flunkus moritati.

Given that they are (in your words) legally carrying and given that You are not statutorily required to inform law enforcement you are carrying a weapon in the state of West Virginia.

What exactly do you plan to do?

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Retired Career Security Guard

Good lord that escalated the scenario pretty quickly. As far as I read in the OP there was no mention of anything that anyone was doing illegal other than the traffic infraction the precipitated the stop. Let's assume that, like the majority of the people that get pulled over for minor traffic citations, our OP is not carrying contraband and is merely going to get their ticket and continue on their way. I'll also assume that most people know the driver they're riding with and would know whether or not they're in deep doo doo if he gets pulled over.

So getting back to the original question asked and not positting other scenarios that aren't germane. If you pull over a vehicle and are only interested in speaking to and getting the licensed information from the driver would you a) like a passenger to pipe up out of the blue that he was armed and permitted or would you rather b) just interact with the driver and write him up a ticket (or warning) and then go about your business?

here the wording goes something to the effect of upon official contact.
as a passenger, it might not be as direct, but it's official contact.

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it just needs more voltage

In the state of Colorado I have no duty to inform so I’m not going to volunteer the information. If I’m driving and I were asked to step out of the vehicle I would hand over my permit before I did anything else and then just do what I’m told.

If I’m a passenger I’m not the one interacting with the cop. Unless he directly addresses me I keep my mouth shut and stay out of it. Even if he asks the driver if there are any weapons in the car I’m staying out of it unless he speaks to me directly.

In the astronomically unlikely event that I’m a passenger in a vehicle where the driver was busted with dope and the cop decides to arrest everyone, unless I am directly asked do you have a CHP I’m not saying one word period until I talk to a lawyer.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Back when I was making traffic stops, I rarely asked if anyone was carrying. I figured those who had state permits to do so were not a real threat, and those up to no good were not going to answer truthfully. Just watch the hands, and maintain situational awareness.

If the stop became more than a basic traffic stop, I would ask, but still depended more on my observations / technique than depending on an honest answer from the occupants.

Personally, as a passenger, I would not volunteer I was armed unless asked specifically, or was about to be asked to step out of the vehicle.

Larry

I may be off base, but speaking as a LEO, if I discover a gun on a person and I don't know whether this individual is licensed to carry it, I will take steps to keep myself safe. I don't know why this sounds like escalated behavior. If I'm supplied with information from a passenger that he is legally armed, as a LEO, it is comforting that the passenger divulged this information. If they gave you this much, it is highly unlikely that anything sinister is in the works.

I like to enter into a brief conversation with these folks by asking them what they are carrying and, if I have any experience with their weapon, comment on it in a positive light. I also make it a point to thank them for choosing to go through the process of getting licensed.

...And I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I don't think it's proper for non-law enforcement to second guess a decision that we must make, on the street, at the time of the occurrence. We have to make split second decisions, sometimes with little or no background info. We do the best we can, for all parties involved (us included) while still keeping safety as our paramount concern. As an EMT, I'm sure this is a regular working condition for you as well.

I understand that you should have been told before you find it but I am having difficulty with "God help them" which sounds life threatening. What do you mean by that?

It sounds like you are saying LEO's should not be accountable to the public. I have tremendous respect for LEO's, but they are certainly not above scrutiny.

Putting your two posts together "God help him... and non-LEO's should not second guess me [for what happens next]." I'm really not getting a good impression.

Since you apparently live in West Virginia, it's important for you to know that in Ohio ANYONE lawfully carrying a concealed firearm who is "stopped" by the police for a "law enforcement purpose" is REQUIRED to verbally inform ANY AND ALL cops involved.

That means that ANYBODY in that vehicle with a CHL or recognized equivalent, who is CARRYING at the time, is REQUIRED to inform the cop(s) who stops the vehicle, AND any subsequent cops who are involved in the "stop". There is NO distinction drawn between drivers and passengers.

How about if they're NOT lawfully carrying but tell you that in order to lull you into a false sense of security, preparatory to eliminating you as an impediment to their planned activities?

How about if they have a CHL and just shot their boss?

How about if they have a CHL and have a dead hooker in the trunk?

Somebody notifying you that they have a CHL doesn't make you safer. It just makes you FEEL safer... whether you REALLY are or not. It no more enhances your ACTUAL safety any more than a ban on third graders biting sandwiches into the shape of handguns prevents school shootings.

I never threatened anyone's life. I merely was trying to infer that the individual with the unaccounted for handgun was probably going to have a pretty bad experience because of their negligence in telling about their carrying it. People like that have a tendency to get pistol-pointed, thrown on their faces, and get exposed to other general forms of rough treatment. It isn't uncommon, because I hear these stories circulating in the police community. I am confident that I am not alone in this belief. Its a safety thing, not a civil rights thing.

Furthermore, I am fully aware that there are 1000 scenarios where a legally carrying person is still dangerous to me. The fact that they told me about their handgun allows me to approach the situation with more friendliness than the alternative. Their gun will still be secured until my investigation is completed, and the majority of CPL holders probably won't have a problem with this. If I don't have to pull them out of the car, they can keep it. Just leave your hands where I can see them.

It certainly wasn't my intention to irritate anyone with my responses, but this thread was proposed to the LEO's of this forum. I don't feel its right that I, as a LEO post a response, then get flamed for it by non-LEO's. Especially when the response that I provide is one that would be the likely manner in which it would have been handled by other LEO's.

In must-inform state, if "officially addressed" (Other than a passing 'Good Day') it doesn't matter who or what you're doing--you inform. If not in a must-inform state, if the LEO "asks"--answer. That's all the law requires. Anything you do beyond that is on you, good or bad.

There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Did you bother to read what you wrote? It comes across as very hostile towards civilians...period.

Thanks for the peek into the mind of a police officer; I appreciate your candor. I have to say, though, I don't like what I see. Regardless of what mantra your organization may say, your job is not about "coming home at the end of the day," and treating law abiding citizens the way you describe is a terrible way to enforce laws. Police, law enforcement, who act this way towards legally concealed carriers, are not enforcing laws, they are bullies--after all, you are talking about throwing somebody on their face who hasn't even broken a law.

Police jobs are not as dangerous as they're made to sound, either: America's 10 Deadliest Jobs

Ok. You are clearly missing my point, guys. We will be hypothetical now. You are a LEO and you make a traffic stop. Through contact with the driver, you now discover that their are drugs or any other reason that deems it that you now must pull the occupants from the car to investigate further. In the course of pulling the occupants, you discover, through a pat-down, that the passenger has a gun. Up to this point, he has told you nothing.

At this point, are you telling me that you would simply "have a chat" with this person? Let's turn back around now. I am conducting the traffic stop. Same circumstances. Upon pulling the passenger out, and during a pat-down, I discover an undeclared firearm. He immediately goes into handcuffs and I remove the gun until I determine that he is A.) legally carrying it *AND* B.) that there is not a crime being committed.

Now, I may or may not become more physical with this individual if they are compliant with what I'm doing. If they choose to simply resist my efforts to secure them while at the same time fail to provide me with any information, I ask you, what choice have they left me with? What is it about what I have just told you sounds like being a bully?

Also, LIKE I STATED, if there was no crime and no issue, and I didn't have to pull anyone out of the car, then none of the things mentioned above need to happen. This has nothing to do with the policies of my department, and everything to do with being a cop.

Sometimes, as a police officer, I am required to do things that, from a non-law enforcement perspective, may appear to be aggressive or somewhat hostile. Any situation where a gun is involved, and I don't have all the facts, and the guy with the gun has made no effort to tell me anything, then I ask you, how differently could you possibly handle this, yet still remain safe so that your kids and your spouse can have you return to them at the end of the shift?

I believe we all got your point.

And I resent the fact that you dismiss the danger in my job. I don't care what Forbes has to say about what I do. You are clearly dismissing the danger of my job based on "statistics". Where do you think statistics originate from? Incidents and occurrences must happen in order for the numbers to exist. Every one of those numbers was a person that paid the ultimate sacrifice doing this job.

1. Do you work a job where you can be hit by a car and killed while making a routine traffic stop?

2. Do you work a job where you can be responding to a "barking dog" complaint and have a nut open fire from a second story window on you while you are arriving to the scene?

3. Do you work a job where you respond to a "domestic violence" complaint and, although you thought you were there helping a battered spouse, when they hear that you are arresting their spouse, they BOTH attack you?

4. Do you work a job where you are serving a search warrant for a meth lab at a house and, once you are inside the house, it catches fire and/or explodes because the one-pot that was cooking when you arrived needed to be "burped" but it couldn't be because the guy tending it is in cuffs now, but he didn't tell you about it because he doesn't want to be charged with the lab?

5. Do you work a job where you arrive at a "check welfare" call to check the well-being/health of an emotionally and/or mentally disturbed person and be assaulted by them for no other reason than they are afraid of police?

So now, tell me that in light of all of these other things that we deal with, on the public's behalf, and despite great risk to our own safety, that a situation with an undeclared firearm should be handled with a smile, a slap on the back, and a quaint discussion about a fish I caught the week before.

And to reiterate, this thread was posted to elicit a response from a police officer, not someone who's pretty sure how a situation should have been handled from the perspective of a concealed pistol holder. In Michigan, it is law to disclose the fact that you are a CPL holder when in contact with police. You stand to have your permit revoked if you violate this law.

Resent my facts all you want, it doesn't change the truth. There are truly dangerous jobs out there, and police don't make the top ten. Refuting statistical evidence with hypothetical anecdotes is, frankly, funny. It is well documented, over time, by multiple sources, that police work isn't, and hasn't been, all that dangerous compared to other jobs.

To get back to the original point of this thread, the OP is in WV, a state not required to disclose. You came in and said what you would do ("throw them on their faces"). I am calling you out on that.

Thanks for all the reading and LEO responses.

David

Isn't the first thing you tell that fella' you're going to toss on the ground "You have the right to remain silent?" He had that right before he got face planted, didn't he? And in what other situations do you arrive and handcuff everyone until you determine a crime isn't being committed?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

66snub, I get it and appreciate your posts. I just took a look at Michigan handgun law on "must inform" and what you wrote seems reasonable to me for the scenario you are describing. In Missouri there is no requirement to inform, but if requested to step out of my vehicle while armed (as a driver or passenger), I would be informing just to keep everyone safe. I think a lot of people are understandably offended by stories of LEO's who are arrogant bullies. From your first post I was not sure, but you seem like a straight up fellow. Best regards.

Why are you calling me out on this? I never said that I would be the one to throw anyone on their face. I said "in general", as in by law enforcement. In general. Other cops. Not specifically me.

It is insulting that you refer to what I said about law enforcement as "anecdotal". What, may I ask, do you do for a living? Something in sales? Construction? Consulting? You obviously live in a region where nothing really dangerous ever happens, and bad people don't live there, either. And do you personally know any people that worked one of these "forbes" most dangerous jobs? How about any dead ones? Because I personally knew a few dead cops. It tends to make it a little more real for me.

Furthermore, I can naturally only speak in terms of the laws from my home state. I know nothing of West Virginia's laws.

The thing I find most disturbing about this post is that you’re talking about pistol whipping people who haven’t broken any law. If I get pulled over in West Virginia and I choose to say nothing about my concealed handgun I’ve broken no law and you’re telling me “God help me” if you catch me not breaking any law because it offends you.

Do you see how some might find this disconcerting?

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Retired Career Security Guard

I'm not sure what problem you have with the LEO posting here. Maybe you got bullied early in life and are now overly sensitive. Perhaps a job as a police officer isn't "statistically dangerous" because they follow their training and walk on the side of caution everyday interacting with people they've never met. In what situation is it unlikely that he wouldn't ask "do you have anything on you that I should know about" before he pats you down, in which case you have to answer him because I'd consider that being directly addressed. Also, what do you have to hide and what are you afraid of by telling him you have a gun?

You sound ignant.

Like I said, I can only speak of the laws of my state. In MY STATE, this is a violation. If it happened IN MY STATE, then a law has been broken. Please read the post that you keep quoting me on. It doesn't say anything about what "I" directly, would do. I said IN GENERAL.

I never, ever, ever said or advocated "pistol whipping" anyone, which is striking someone with my sidearm or any other gun. Where was this said, or even eluded to? And choosing to say nothing about your concealed weapon is breaking the law in my home state.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt but I want to point out that your first post in this thread may have come off a little stronger than you intended what with that “God help them” line, that’s what people responded to.

I would also like to point out that even if you personally wouldn’t face plant me for not breaking any law by stating that that’s what your buddies would do without disavowing the practice you appear to be supporting it.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Not sure why but I read that as pistol whipped. I concede the point

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Retired Career Security Guard

But, like I said, I can only speak about the laws in my home state, and nondisclosure is a violation, so a crime has been committed. I get the impression that you have had bad experiences in the past with law enforcement, and on behalf of those officers, I apologize.

To go further, none of my coworkers condone this kind of behavior, especially in terms of people that they have no reason to believe have done anything wrong. The media does an excellent job at finding the worst of the worst in police footage and making it viral for weeks. The bad cops get punished, sure. But the good cops get a black eye for it too. We are not the violent bullies that we are painted as being. Its a completely unfair stereotype.

What I'm saying, is that it seems this is being blown out of proportion. In order for the situation to arise where you are cuffed and face planted, bad choices need to be made by the person carrying. As a "responsible gun owner/carrier," which is what everybody preaches here, would you honestly not divulge that you had a gun seconds prior to being patted down? I mean honestly whatever situation led to the pat down, at that instant you have the opportunity for some transparency knowing they will almost instantly find that gun. That is where you can avoid some rough treatment. If I was in an officers shoes I'd take some offense to being lied to.

Not sure what you do for a living, but wouldn't you take all the reasonable steps to protect yourself? Above somebody was giving somebody a hard time for feeling comfortable after somebody divulges they have their carry card and a gun. Then just a few posts later it's said that it's "not part of their job description" to take un necessary steps to be safe.

I work construction and have to work on top of industrial wind turbines. You can bet your tail that I'm tying off every single time...even if it wasn't part of my company policy. Doesn't seem unreasonable when I think of it that way.

To each their own and I know everybody is entitled to their opinion.

I realy can't say that I have. I haven't had an official interaction with a police officer in 5 years and he was fine.

I was speeding and he caught me. He walked up to the car and the first words out of his mouth were "Good afternoon I'm Officer So and So of the Colorado Highway Patrol. I pulled you over today for excessive speed. Your speed was XX in an XX zone and I will be citing you for speeding today. May I have your license, registration and proof of insurance please."

I wasn't happy about the ticket but he wasn't an inch out of line.

I run into County Sheriffs at work all the time and they're all polite to me.

I'm sorry to say it was that "God help them" that set me off

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Retired Career Security Guard

Law enforcement will never ever disclose any helpful tips that might lessen your traffic infraction during a stop, so why should an individual volunteer any information that is lawfully not required? In most, if not all cases, you are much better off to say nothing that is not required by law. Sure commonsense should prevail, but that is not the law here in Illinois.

I can assure all of you (and the LEO's will surely agree) that proper vehicle stops, for traffic or otherwise, are MANAGED and CONTROLLED by the LEO.

They dictate to whom any question(s) is addressed and who answers.

In one personal stop I asked the driver for his i.d. To which he responded 'it's in the glove box.' I told the front seat passenger to retrieve it only to see a handgun therein. Be assured the stop went downhill from that point on.

FYI, the gun was not properly possessed; both were charged. In court the driver was convicted. I agreed with the prosecutor the constructive possession charge against the passenger be dropped.

Be safe.

The difficulty to overcome here, is the written word is often taken out of context and the thread sometimes become a runaway train, so to speak. My only regret is the "god help them" phrase. I merely meant to imply that the person is definitely going to have a bad day. I didn't intend to light a stick of dynamite and throw it at anyone's feet. To any that were offended, I apologize. I was only trying to answer the OP's question in the best manner that I could, if this occurred in my state, to me.

As I said in my reply to your 1st post, the problem was in your escalating the circumstances of the question to a finding of drugs on the driver and then pulling the passenger without him having informed you he was carrying when asked if he was carrying anything dangerous (which I assume you would do when asking him to exit the vehicle).

The original question had nothing to do with this, all it was asking was if you are interacting with the driver on a citation would rather the passenger pipe up with a statement that he is carrying and permitted or would you rather just interact with the driver and then be on your way... why is that such a hard question to answer? Even in a must inform State if you aren't questioning the passenger then he would have no duty to inform (or at the very most it's a gray area since he's not having an official interaction until you ask him questions) so would you like him to anyway or would you rather just finish up with the driver?

Also in case you're wondering I've only had one previous encounter that left a bad taste in my mouth and that was when I was newly permitted and made the mistake of informing the young female police officer who pulled me over for a failure to signal a right turn. She proceded to ask me to exit the vehicle, remove my pistol and then as she was waving it all over while finger f****** it she tried to unload it on my trunk but wasn't strong enough to pull the slide back (Glock 27) and hadn't ejected the mag yet either... ugh it was such a mess I was begging her to just put the damn gun down and either write me a ticket or not but just don't accidentally shoot me. So you see if I don't need to inform then I'd prefer not too, Im sure most officers would handle a firearm safer but I'd really just rather not chance it if I don't need to.

In my state, anyone with contact with the police, especially if specifically asked, SHALL inform. It's not optional. Besides, I already gave the disclaimer (very early on, I might add) that if the scenario didn't warrant anything further than speaking with the driver and not pulling people out, then it's all good. I'm not sure why you need to keep beating me over the head with this, when I told you what I would do in BOTH cases.

I donno, I kind of always liked making it home each night...



Larry

In some locals you required to show the office your license or at least tell them about it.

It's commonplace for people stopped by police to start shooting. You know the police are on a razor's edge when stopping somebody no matter how innocent. My philosophy of "Don't volunteer anything" is overshadowed by the good sense of not surprising a police officer.

So do I and every other worker.

Fact is, police work is not that dangerous: bls.gov

Your job, and other police officers' jobs, in reality, are substantially less dangerous than cab drivers, loggers, roofers, pilots, and many others jobs. Being a policeman is about as dangerous as being an electrician.

Well, at least it was 19 years ago . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well, since you pointed it out, it's been on a downward trend before and since--in fact, the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund has shown that 2013 had the least police fatalities since 1887. Right from their own source, note the downward trend: nleomf.org

It sucks when people die on the job. Big time. I'm sure all those other vocations have safety rules and guidelines that they follow and improve, too. All I'm doing is pointing out that it is utter mythology that cops are in a high risk profession. They don't even make the top ten.

Those of you who assert law enforcement is not a dangerous profession should use the sarcasm font lest people think you are serious.

True, there are other 'dangerous' occupations, but by and large injuries/deaths in those jobs are not at the hands of others as is the case in law enforcement.

After all, how many hate their electrician, local truck driver, loggers, etc.?

Fact is, LEO's prevail over their assaultive adversaries at a high rate. Otherwise the profession would meet the bogus 'numbers' criteria suggested by some herein.

All said, LEO's choose their profession; they are not drafted. I chose to assume the inherent risks.

Be safe.

But is that per capita, per person engaged in the profession, or just overall numbers? There are lots of truck drivers, so more are going to die in work related accidents. Only about 20 astronauts have died in the line of duty, so that profession must not be dangerous at all . . . Statistics are all about perspective. In any event, studies have shown that 78.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .