Uh, maybe, but not in the way you intend. No pistol (non magnum)produces enough energy to consistently penetrate the heavy bones of the skull. I've personally seen two one shot stops by concussion with no penetration of the skull. A lot of folks no longer teach the head shot because of this type of thing.

The closer the (JHP) bullet profile resembles ball, the more likely it is to feed in virtually any pistol. Remington used to (still does in 9mm, don't know about .45) produce JHP pistol bullets that were extremely close to ball. Their expansion wasn't outstanding, but they'd feed in anything.

I'd be very reluctant to use all ball, all the time. BTW, for those who live where JHP is verboten, Federal produces a fully jacketed expanding bullet. I believe they burdened it with the name of "Guard Dog" as a product line. Supposed to feed like ball and expand well.

Where municipalities ban the use of hollow points, today there are soft nose rounds made with plastic tip inserts, such as Hornady "Critical Defense" that are technically not hollow points and therefore may be carried and used. To the best of my knowledge, these rounds are okay in NJ. However, if we keep asking the police or our elected officials whether this ammo is okay, somebody will eventually ban them.

With dismal hit rates against live adversaries, the standard precept should be to hold your fire when there are innocents or non-combatants in the line of fire. You cannot assume a 100% certainty of hitting your adversary nor that the bullet will remain inside him. A 140 pound gangbanger in a T-shirt presents less resistance to a bullet than a hulking 240 pounder in a heavy leather jacket.

I live in a one-family home of wood frame construction, My neighbor's home is a mere fifteen feet away and their bedroom is downrange of my most likely avenue of defensive fire. I have reason to fear that an FMJ and maybe even a HP can penetrate the three intervening walls and reach them in their bed. I keep my .45 S&W M&P stuffed with hollow points but I've "adjusted" my shooting alley so as to avoid that one room I know to be occupied at night.

In selecting a bullet, please remember that your needs are necessarily different than those of on-duty LEOs or federal agents. A CCW is not as likely to take on a barricaded gunman, solve a hostage crisis or engage in a felony car stop. For that reason, the CCW should be more concerned with expansion than penetration.

This argument was still valid in the early 80s when the 1911 was still the predominant 45 out there and there was little HP ammo on the market for semi autos that would either feed reliably or expand reliably. Back then there were more than a few gun gurus and writers who prefered ball over HP because of the reliability, but even most of them were beginning to take note of the legendary Speer "flying ashtray." ....if they could get it to feed. The likes of ammo restrictions such as those in NJ are a result of knee-jerking and uneducated emotion-based legislation. NYPD was forced to carry the ineffective 38 RN round, and later FMJ for their 9s when they first transitioned. None of it was based on the known science of the time, or ballistics. Any object that is propelled into living tissue at a high rate of speed has the potential to kill a living threat. Nevertheless, a handgun being a poor manstopper st best, why would you not want every SD advantage available to you? Any of you deer hunters advocate military ball ammo in the woods?

Haven't loaded ball in a 1911 since the Army. Wouldn't be my first choice today, but if it's what I had, I'd load it without a second thought

I'm not gonna make a big thing out of this, but I just have to admit I don't understand this "I'm sure that the 1911 could be made to run" mindset that so many people have. I'm not singling you out...lots of people seem to think this way.

Maybe if the 1911 was a black plastic striker-fired pistol, more people would like it, who knows.

Yes as a combat veteran in Vietnam we were trying to kill them rather then wound them as your job is to eliminate the threat. Quite frankly looking at war a pistol is your last resort and hope because a rifle always killed faster and it's easier to hit an opponent then with a pistol. In the good old USA your only option is a pistol for concealed carry and most shootouts occur in very confined space where over penetration is very likely so I use the best hollow point I can find which for me is a Gold Dot as the cycle very well in my Sig pistols.

Just to commemorate the occasion I have stopped by the safe deposit box and taken out my 1914-production commercial model Colt 1911, loaded it up with some FA-18 ball ammo, and put that where my Kimber Custom CDP usually rides every day.

The pistol is 100 years old, made during the same year my father was born. The ammunition is 96 years old, made during the same year my grandfather was wounded in France. My Combat Infantryman Badge is 45 years old, same as my first Purple Heart Medal. My pension fund has been fully vested for over 30 years. I qualify for Social Security benefits. I can make withdrawals from my IRA without penalties. Found out last week that I'm going to be a great-grandfather, again.

Despite all the talk about the negative aspects of FMJ ball ammo I don't feel the least bit unarmed, inadequately armed, or even slightly vulnerable. I do feel just a little bit old.

Best regards.

I own one 1911 and don't carry it for several reasons but if I did it
would be loaded with good quality ball ammo. Most of the time I
carry my S&W mod 37 because it's light and easily concealed.
Sometimes I carry one of my 380s or 9mms and they are always
loaded with FMJ ball ammo. Reliable function is paramount. Bullet
placement and penetration are what count in self defense. A jam
in an autoloader at a critical moment is unthinkable. FMJ ball ammo
has a long proven history of lethality, mostly in calibers a
lot smaller than 45.

1. Lethality != stopping power. What do you win if your assailant dies in the hospital ten days after he murders you?
2. A LARGE portion of the FMJ handgun bullets that killed people, killed people on the edges of mass graves and in basement execution cells. I carry a handgun to defend myself, not to execute "undesirables" and "class enemies".
3. You don't address at all the issue of over-penetration. I guarantee you that the SS wouldn't have prosecuted Joachim Peiper if he'd shot one American POW and the same bullet hit and killed another American POW. I suspect that then current German law didn't allow the survivors of the second GI to sue either.

A 230-grain FMJ bullet, moving at 817 fps at 25 yards with a force of 341 foot pounds of energy will not consistently penetrate the "heavy bones" of a human skull? And that's 25 yards. What about at "combat range" of 7 yards or less...still no consistent penetration?

So what's that .45 bullet going to do? Just stick in the bone or something? Bounce off, maybe?

Keep in mind, the human skull consists of several areas...some areas where the bone is thick, other areas where the bone isn't much thicker than an egg shell. The overall thickness of the human skull averages out to a bit over .25-inches, or if you're metrically inclined, about 6.5-millimeters thick. Face facts, a quarter-of-an-inch isn't very thick at all. There are a lot of vulnerable areas on the human skull.

Sorry, and I mean no offense, but I just don't buy into this story. Or theory. Or whatever it is.

My 1911 is loaded with Golden Sabre HPs for HD. I don't have a CWP yet but it would probably be the same if I did carry it. I also have a spare mag loaded with Remington FMJ ball ammo. Both have fed 100 percent reliably so far. If I had to I'd have no problem using the FMJ ammo.

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M&P 15-22
1911

Don't shoot ball-never had never will, all my 1911 eats is 230 gr FMJ. Goes boom and hits where I aim. goes through lots of stuff too.

This thread is most entertaining-better than the usual .45 vs 9mm drivel I am used to seeing and certainly better tan the run of the mill bear gun threads.
I'm old skule. I like 158 gr SWC .38's, 158 gr SWC or JSP in my .357's 240 gr JSP's in my .44's. FOr my auto loaders-it's 95 gr FMJ in my .380, 115 gr FMJ in the 9 and 40 gr solids for my .22's.
Home defense is an 870 loaded with low brass #8 Wal Mart dove loads

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Forum consigliere

*
Adequate penetration of the harder bones of the skull is not sufficiently reliable with many rounds, and while I would not care to risk being shot in the head with one either, there are enough reports of ball ammo (BTW, Caj, FMJ is "ball") in different calibers skidding around the skull under the skin, etc, to make me not rely on it for service use. A friend who has investigated a ton of shootings (and been in a few, both .mil and LE) has both investigated and experienced a collection of events in which supposed "death ray" ammo (12 gauge, 45, .30-06 in an M1, etc) has not resulted in a stop or a fatality. (Hence - shoot 'em to the ground.)

The correct target area from the front is a triangle from the bridge of the nose to the outer edges of the eyes and across the underside of the brow. This is both far less tough, and directly in line with the most vital areas of the brain for a rapid shutdown of operations. From the side - roughly the ear canal; same reason. The information developed in the last 10-15 years of studying ballistics and OIS has transformed our understanding and the intellectual foundations of our teaching.

There is a reason for the shifts in ammo performance since the FBI wound ballistics seminar, and the knowledge then was relatively primitive compared to now. In most revolvers, there is good argument for SWCs, because revolver ammo has not gotten the same attention as service autopistols. However, in an autopistol, provided that you have 100% reliability, there is little reason to use anything but ammo that passes the testing and meets the standard unless you are in some weird place that has ammo restrictions.

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NHI, 10-8.

1. Use of expanding bullet ammunition in warfare is prohibited by the Hague Conventions.
2. .45 Ball ammo is fine for any defensive purpose.
3. If you carry a .25 ACP pistol for PD, as I do, always use FMJ bullets. Expanding .25 bullets do not penetrate well at all. .25 FMJ bullets perform quite well. And they are more effective than most people believe.

Finally, someone explained why she can do this!!!!

Wonder Woman - Bullets and Bracelets 2 - YouTube

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

1. Well nothing I guess. The problem with this question as
I see it is that it is a product of what I call "the what if
game" Those addicted to the what if game are limited only
by their imagination when creating scenarios for others to
respond to. Let me play; what if my first defensive shot
tore through my assailant, taking out a chunk of spine, struck
his partner standing behind him in the eye and both dropped
so fast I couldn't get off a second shot? Bout as likely as
your what if.
2. Doesn't deserve a reply.
3. The concept of over-penetration is another example of the
what if game. Once created it has taken on a life of it's own
and is expected to be taken as a given. The idea is that a
desperate live or die shootout with a would be robber-killer
in a parking lot somewhere will have a close back-stop
comprised of women and children. Taken as a given that one
of your 2-3 shots that rip through the bad guy will have
enough energy to kill the sweet old lady who just happens
to be in the line of fire. The reality of this happening seems
to me about the same as me winning the Powerball lottery.

People who DON'T play the "what if game" get surprised... a LOT.

Before WWII Navy BuOrd didn't play the "what if game" regarding torpedoes. They got some nasty surprises that could have been avoided by playing the "what if game", such as:

• What if the earth's magnetic field is different in different geographic locations?
• What if the torpedoes ran deeper than set?
• What if the magnetic influence detonator AND the impact detonator were defective, AND the torpedoes ran deeper than set?

A lot of people have that reaction to history. It not only makes them think, it make them think about unpleasant things.
Not for the people wounded and killed by through and throughs when the NYPD was using FMJs.

No, absolutely not. The last thing we need is another law or statute mandating what kind of ammo we can carry and where we can carry it.

We have enough restrictions going on as it it.

I can't/won't argue that there have been major advances in ballistics studies and ammunition development over the last fifteen years.

But you know what? From the relatively simple question asked by the OP about whether anyone still loads/uses ball ammo, this whole thread has taken off in multiple directions. It's turned into one of those circular debates where everyone expresses their opinion about different things, but nothing ever gets resolved. There will never be a universal agreement on use and effectiveness of plain 'ol ball ammo.

So I'm gonna add my two cents worth and then I'm outta here.

I'm well over 55-years-old, okay? But although I enjoy the nostalgic appeal of older guns and ammo, I'm a realist. This "correct target area" concept just falls flat to me. Whatever happened to the center mass concept...heart, lungs, liver, and abdomen...a much smaller "triangle"? Is that no longer valid? Seriously, forget the head shots. And I think this whole "over penetration" thing is just a red herring.

I look at it this way. Someone invades my home, the last thing on my mind is what's 200 feet behind him across the street. Both my .45s are loaded to the gills with 230-grain FMJs. With extra mags close by. If you hit the target with one or two of any of the shots shown in the accompanying photograph, the target will not remain standing. Period.

Getting hit by a 230-grain bullet at 25 yards is like getting hit in the chest by a brick traveling at about 600 miles per hour. 817 Feet per Second = 557.0454545454545 Miles per Hour at 25 yards. Imagine getting hit by one or two shots at 20 feet. Hell, the muzzle blast will blind the target to start with, and then the target is probably already dead or dying from shock to the nervous system and internal organs. Whether the bullet passes through or not...it's expended a lot of its enery into the target's body.

So I'll stick with my ball ammo. It's relatively inexpensive, great practice ammo, and I plan on using it to qualify on July 12.

As I said, that's my two cents worth. Y'all can continue this debate at your leisure.

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45acp works fine since ww1,ww2,korea,vietnam,law enforcement.It was about 1970 that Lee Juras started to make 45acp Hollow points. Ball made the stopping power known for the 45acp since WW1. They work for defense and feed well. In New Jersey where hollow points are not legal it's the 45acp ball that everybody wants to carry for knock down defense.It plain works and start's out 45cal and don't need to open up to work.

The use of ball-ammo in 1911s was the mode for decades and it worked. I would say they did not suffer alot of through-and-through shots due to the low speed of the .45-ACP and the size and mass of the projectile.

Fast-forward to technology and we have the rounds we have today. So, to answer the OP's question....yes, it will work to carry ball-ammo in your 1911, but there are even better rounds out there in all calibers. This, of course, is just my opinion......

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GA Carry member
Vietnam Vet

From the FBI document "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness".

"The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.
Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue."

Watchdog: I was imprecise. I meant that only as the correct target area for shots to the head, which should be more accurately referred to in general as face shooting. For center mass, the correct target area is roughly a rectangle formed by a horizontal line through the nipples; vertical lines upward from the nipples to the top of the body, and a horizontal line across connecting to the vertical lines at the top.

I can appreciate you mean about the thread moving off on tangents, the dreaded and well known thread drift. That said, in general, it seems to me that most of the responders were answering the yes/no question, and then expressing why.

Something should be remembered by all is that a pistol is carried for convenience, when we have no reason to expect a conflict. If we have reason to expect a conflict and can't make arrangements to be elsewhere that day (such as LE), one takes a rifle (or a shotgun loaded with slugs) and as many similarly armed colleagues as can be found.

As noted by JohnSW above, over-penetration is a lesser concern. My recollection, however, is that paragraph is a response to concerns raised about the FBI test's penetration standards for service ammo. Ball is not service ammo and penetrates a lot farther than a good HP designed to modern standards.

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NHI, 10-8.

I don't know much case law/ history about bystanders being injured or kilt by over penetration. Not saying it isn't a concern either, I was wondering if anyone has a link to a real case of the self defending gun owner being charged in criminal court or sued in civil.
I know the theoretical, but I'd like to have a look at it really happening.

I use JHP in my stuff when and where it isn't restricted by law, BTW. Except for my 158gr buffalo bore +P .38sp....

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Halfway and one more step

no wonder the caliber wars never end ... when limited to a single caliber, the debate rages for pages.

The way I see it, whatever you feed your 45 should be chosen by actually shooting things with it, rather than reading about it.

we have the standard ball, hollow points as well as TC flat points to play with, each has its merit.

Im partial to a good TC flat point myself.
Your Yardage may, and should vary, provided you actually play with em and determine these merits for your self.

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it just needs more voltage

As I recall, NYC has paid out a pretty big chunk of change for the citizens the NYPD killed and wounded because of through and throughs with 9x19mm ball. I believe that Ayoob has discussed it multiple times in his various columns.

Unlike the NYPD, I don't have qualified immunity. Nor, unlike NYC, can I pay off somebody I accidentally shoot, with money I forcibly extract from the victim himself.

No, it isn't. It's like getting hit by a 230-grain bullet traveling at about 600 miles per hour.

"You boys are apt to get the drizzels if ya don't calm down".
No magic pills 45 or otherwise.

Two taps in a BG's 10 ring is likely gonna ruin his afternoon.

Wow! I'm always amazed when I encounter the "logic" that
those with fatalistic outlooks apply to life events. The worst
possible outcome one can imagine becomes inevitable once
developed in the fatalistic mind. Maybe you would feel safer
not carrying at all if you think this nightmare will happen to
you if you have to defend yourself.

There's one in every crowd.

Let me rephrase it.

The 230-grain FMJ puts out 341 foot-pounds at 25 yards. So it's the equivalent of someone dropping a 341-pound weight on you from a height of one foot.

Or, if you prefer, someone dropping a 1-pound weight on you from a height of 341 feet.

Any way you phrase it, it'll kill you.

I carry ONLY with JHPs.

Some of us eccentrics try to MINIMIZE our potential difficulties.

Others just choose to ignore them.

Some people choose to pretend that through and throughs don't happen, just like anti-self-defense people pretend that there's no violent crime or that it can't happen to THEM.

I've never thought much of wishful thinking as a survival strategy, against violent attack OR civil litigation.

It was not just Moro tribesmen the .45acp had to stop. It was also expected by the cavalry to bring down a horse. Any round that will stop a charging cavalry mount is okay by me.

I think .45 caliber is a large and heavy enough bullet, that even with ball ammo it's a fight stopper. I never heard any soldier complain about the military .45 being inadequate. That said, sure, because of over penetration hollow points are better in civilian life. The perp gets more dead when you shoot him with an hp.

Bystanders are less dead when bullets don't pass through the perpetrator and hit them.

But then some people apparently just don't care about that.

Before I broke mine in (500 rounds) I loaded ball. Now I carry HPs (have tested) in my Rock GI. Corbon DPX.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Depends on where it falls on you. Me-I'll tale the 341 pound weight falling from one foot over the other-kinetics and all that.

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Forum consigliere

Still wrong. And any way you phrase it, maybe it will kill you, and maybe it won't.

My 1980 series 70 colt works with HST HP's, so that's what I carry in my 1911 on the rare occasion when I carry it.

I used to own a RRA GI 1911 that I didn't trust with HP. I never carried it, but used it as a house gun. Even that was loaded with Corbon Pow'R ball.

I would carry ball if nothing else was available (and feel it could get the job done), but it's not my first choice.

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Watch & Pray

I have one load that I have used in my Colt Gov't Model for decades. It is the load I practice with. It is the load I plink with and it is the load I carry. I cast all of my pistol bullets so I carry a 230 grain lead round nose bullet (looks just like ball without the jacket). I am confident it will get the job done as long as I do my part.

Yep, occasionally, and never felt undergunned.

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NULLI SECUNDUS

I can shoot any .45 round in my .45 625 in 4 inch barrel. Mainly,I prefer ball or semi wadcutter.

I usually carry JHP or one of the bonded bullets in smaller calibers. Usually if I'm carrying a 45 ACP its in the country somewhere - overpenetration isn't generally a concern. I often carry a 200 gr. semiwadcutter loaded to about 1000 fps in that environment. It was a favorite of Cooper's and makes for an excellent general purpose load in the 45 ACP.

Those of you who say you carry fmj because you can't find a jhp that feeds reliably....where are you looking?
With the unprecedented variety of ammo available in .45, and most calibers I find it hard...no, impossible to believe that that's possible.

I'm not trying to say that ball ammo can't be effective, but there is no arguing that JHP is better for defensive purposes.

Why not just say that you "prefer" ball ammo and leave it at that?

If Cooper were alive today I wonder if he would STILL carry that same round - given the advancements in ammo since his death?

BALL AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE ?
In today's world with the current ammo shortage-- I carry what ever is available and mostly its Ball Ammo

Is ammo still in short supply in Florida? I can find everything except .380 here. Fortunately, I have a good supply ammo in that caliber.

I do. I would like to see a poll on this subject.

I like .45 FMJ bullets because they are already big, and I can count on them to penetrate. Seeing the size of Really Big People reminds me of the importance of penetration. Plus, I can load my gun with the same ammo that I practice with; assuring function and point of impact.

Jeff Cooper's DEAD????????

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Forum consigliere

9mm FMJ is available most of the time alone with .45acp FMJ. Other calibers scarce

Don't know. Might be he would carry something else, but the SWC works fine for me in the situation I use it in.