Wish SWC loads were available and common. Don't handload currently.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

swc or hardball in the boondocks,hp at home.

That's pretty much how I do it too.

I'm late to the party.

I load truncated cone, plated 225 grain Rainiers in some of my M1911A1s. I load one Commander with the Hornady 230 XTP Hollow-Point. I load another Commander with the Hornady 200 grain JTC-SIL Semi-wadcutter. I will be loading other M1911A1s with a 230 grain plated round-nose flat-point and with a 225 hardcast truncated cone.

I want the penetration as I will be in the woods. I want the penetration of the Hornady 200 grain jacketed SWC if I am in a car (as in shooting into another car).

I loaded the Hornady 230 grain XTP's just because they were on the bench and I thought I'd try them. They shot into 1 5/8 inch for 7 shots at 18 yards so I stayed with them.

I don't put much faith in hollow-point pistol bullets below velocities of about 1200 fps. I intend, if lucky, to relay on accuracy under stress to place my shots where they need to be in which case caliber (if it penetrates) will not matter.

If there are other people around, when the shooting starts they'd better duck.

I prefer jacketed or plated to lead (although hard-cast lead is probably "stouter" than plated) because I want to ensure feeding.

I hope to never shoot anyone, or anything other than paper.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

...lead poison at times.

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C & L

That is not even close to being a good reason to carry substandard ammunition, when there are far better choices today.

Something for your relatives to consider: FMJ bullets tend to penetrate more than expanding bullets increasing the risk of pass through shots. We own every bullet we fire and there is definitely criminal and civil liability attached to every bystander we harm when using deadly force in self defense, regardless of any civil immunity related to shooting the aggressor.

If I could have only one .45 ACP load it would be a truncated cone load, but the greatest threat is thin-skinned humans, so limited penetration is key to preventing over penetration and maximizing the wound channel. I have a second full moon clip with FMJ ball ammo, or a third 1911 clip with high velocity SWC or if they are not available, ball ammo. I too remember the good old bad old days of 1911s that wouldn't feed anything but ball ammo and we had to re-sculpture the feed ramp to get JHP to feed. Most modern semiautos feed JHPs easily. I still endorse using enough carry ammunition to confirm zero, be comfortable with the recoil if different and get the muscle memory straight with stoppage clearance and reloading from speed loaders or full moon clips of the type you will carry if a revolver user. Carrying spare magazines for automatics is so essential that any serious user understands the benefits of reloads no matter what the firearm.

I wouldn't ever CHOOSE to carry ball ammo in a .45 ACP anymore than I would in a 9mm, .40 S&W or any other handgun caliber unless we're talking 4 legged predator defense, in which case I am not. There really isn't a whole lot if difference in effectiveness(statically) between the common defense pistol calibers when comparing them using FMJ, but the same also applies with JHP's. The idea that it's perfectly acceptable to carry ball ammo for defense use if it's .45 ACP, but not other calibers is an antiquated idea not supported by modern facts and knowledge. JHP's for defense use always.

Super post. Just greatness.

Out
West

Ring hammers. Beautiful. I love them. Why aren't they used anymore?

In 45 acp I'm comfortable with either ball or hollow point ammunition. In the shooting I've done, hollow points will sometimes fail to expand. When that happens it works pretty much the same as ball. No hollow point that I know of comes with a guarantee to expand.

Fackler makes a good counter argument to the over penetration idea by asking about all those rounds fired that don't hit anything.

You pay your money and take your chances.

Out
West

Handguns play such a minute role in combat that you really can't judge .45 ball as "effective" because it has been used since WWI. I'm sure a very small fraction of enemy soldiers were taken out by .45 rounds.

Granted .45 ball will drop a man stone dead, but HP prevents over penetration. There's also a reason why a few Vietnam vets I talked to said they carried .38 snubs like 60's brought or sent from home and loaded them with HP's, and MP's in the combat zone also swapped out the 130 gr. .38 military ball for .38 Hi Vel HP police ammo they got themselves, for their 15's and 10's whenever they could. If ball was so good why didn't they keep the 130 gr FMJ

The most casualty producing weapon of the Infantry was and still is the machine gun, (M60, 1919, SAW, 240b etc) not 1911 wielding soldiers. More men have been put in the grave by .30-06, 5.56 and 7.62 , not .45 ball ammo. Add in artillery rounds and other explosives, .45 ACP doesn't win wars, high volumes of fire and tactics do.

That would be like saying the Germans lost the war because they used P-38 9mm's....

For my pop guns like .25 , .32 and .380 I use for summer carry I load them with ball ammo because there's not much penetration to begin with and I want to reach vital organs if God forbid I need it.

I never carry ball in my .38's, .357's or .45's. There's a reason why 115-130 gr. HP .357 was a popular police round, it hit hard and dumped more energy inside the bad guy reducing through and through shots. 158 gr. HP .38 +P aka the "FBI load" was popular for the same reason. It's what we carry in our S&W 65's at work.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that handguns are more or even as effective as a rifle.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thank God for that-I met the man once in the early 90's and to say he was a consummate alpha hotel would be putting it mildly.

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Forum consigliere

I VERY RARLY carry an Auto Loader (maybe once a year) and when I do it's a 1911 with 230 grain FMJ. My 1911 is a Colt and I know it has NEVER failed to cycle, eject or go bang with that ammo. It may work fine with JHP's but since I almost never carry it I really don't have much experience with that type of ammo in an Auto.

In my revolvers, It's always BB LSWCHP-GC +P 158 grain bullets.

????? NYPD uses 124 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP.

They do now. There was at least one high profile shooting with 115grn ball--the (unarmed) Diallo shooting comes to mind immediately--that guy got shot at 41 times and got hit 19 times.

Given one chooses to carry .45acp FMJ, what is a good factory selection. Most factory FMJ are labeled for "target/range" purposes. Any opinions? GECO has good rep and seems warmer than some.

5 grains of Bullseye and a 230 grain fmj projectile. It works, it's economical, and I've never seen the need to try anything else.

Hoping NOT to get into the middle of this argument but doesn't anyone else see the confusion some may have here (assuming the statements here are true)?

MORE THAN 50% of the shots fired at an UNARMED person missed. Through and through???? Maybe cheaper ammo, more training/practice, and less militarization of the Police is a more sane approach. Police should not be trained like the military. Our founders understood that!

I now retreat back to my hole!

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

...and I agree! All this noise about hollow points staying in the bad guy and not hitting the little old lady down the street is hogwash. That argument discounts all the bullets flying downrange that didn't even have the bad guy slow down a little.

One reason I think they kept shooting is they didn't get the reaction from the few hits they managed to achieve that a lifetime of only seeing Hollywood special effects had taught them to expect.

^^^You guys are spot on.

A miss is the ultimate over penetration. All this talk about not wanting a bullet to over penetrate is founded on a fallacy--that fallacy being 100% hits.

I want a load that does what the bullet was sent to do--ventilation.

Many years back I remember that Ayoob said that a bullet that goes though a body does very serious damage.(something good to say about over penetration) He went on to say there are now 2 holes a innie and a outie and that can let a bleed out happen faster. He also mentioned the term “pneumothorax” that the sac and lungs are well penetrated and immediately makes it much harder for the shot person to breathe there by stopping him/her fast.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

Now, that said, THESE can be had at Walmart for the price of FMJ! In other words, these can be practiced and carried

Attached Images

UMC JHP.jpg (129.1 KB, 28 views)

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

The .45ACP ball ammo hasn't been used since WW2? I seem to remember using it A LOT from 1969 to 1971 in Vietnam while clearing hootches, bunkers, and the occasional tunnel. In close quarters and confined spaces the pistol can be the only viable choice. When I was on the perimeter in a bunker the .45 pistol was very comforting to have, just in case.

My oldest brother remembers using a .45 quite a bit in Korea (1952-53 if I recall correctly).

Neither one of us recalls a single customer complaint. The GI-issue pistols and ball ammo work as intended on two-legged critters.

There were only two types of .45 ACP ammo ever in general issue to the troops from 1912 onward, and those were the 230-grain ball and the 230-grain tracer ball. Match ammo was provided to the competition teams, but never in general issue, and all it amounted to was very consistent 230-grain FMJ ball ammo.

I stand by my earlier post on this thread. While there have been some significant advances in defensive ammo over the years there is simply nothing else that can provide the consistent reliability of FMJ ball ammo in the 1911-style pistols. Nothing is perfect, nothing works 100% of the time, but the 230-gram FMJ ball ammo has the best reliability record of anything available.

Cartridge, Caliber .38 Ball, Special, M41 was adopted for U.S. armed forces using .38 Special caliber handguns. It had a 130 grain FMJ bullet to comply with the Hague and Geneva Conventions and was loaded to a piddly level intended to prolong the life of S&W M12 and Colt Aircrewman revolvers equipped with aluminum cylinders and frames.

At a specified 725 fps from a 6 inch barrel, M41 ball was not as potent as the .38 Long Colt held in disdain in the Phillippines. The government loading specified a 150 grain round nose lead bullet at 777 fps from a 6 inch barrel.

MPs in CONUS who were armed with a revolver were often issued commercial 158 grain LRN ammo. The Air Force did come up with a "hot" FMJ load for use by the Air Police. The PGU-12/B was basically a +P load (20,000 psi) pushing a 130-grain FMJ bullet about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch revolver barrel.

I have neither qualified immunity nor a union paid lawyer.

I can't afford to spray the landscape with bullets OR to risk shooting through an assailant if it can be easily avoided.

If I thought I couldn't exceed the demonstrated judgment AND marksmanship of the NYPD, I wouldn't carry AT ALL.

I don't "carry" ball ammo in my .45's……but that is what I shoot at the range, and what will be loaded in the mags on my way to and from the same…….I would not have an issue using that round for self defense…….always seems it hits POA/POI……..

Semper Fi!

Substandard ammunition? Really? When did 230-grain FMJ become substandard? I must've missed it. Maybe I slept through a couple of decades or something, I don't know.

I use a 1911 for HD. It is loaded w/ 230 gr. FMJ's. At potential engagement distances, any serious round is going to penetrate through and through, even most likely a .22 LR round. While I have a cc license, I do not at this time cc. If and when I start doing cc, I will likely be carrying something much smaller and lighter than a 1911, perhaps a .380 of some sort or a 9mm. I will likely use JHP's in such a pistol.

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