DELETE, duplicate post.

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Oh well, what the hell.

That explains a lot.

The word that comes to mind is "dolt".

"Poseur" is pretty good, too.

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Oh well, what the hell.

If it had happened to me and I was forced to draw my weapon, I would have drawn it down pointing it to the ground with my finger off the trigger, and then try to end the situation that way.

I hope I never have to use my weapon on someone.

That is an incorrect summary of the mechanics and legalities of defending oneself. . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Two levels of answers:

In general, you should never draw you weapon to "threaten" a bad guy to make him not do anything to you. This is a sign of weakness, you know you cannot shoot. The bad guy now "owns" the situation and, probably, you. Do not draw until you know you need to employ deadly force.

In Kalifornia, you would be in trouble for brandishing. Even putting your hand by the lump in your coat is considered brandishing. You will lose your CCW and probably face a charge or two.

Deadly force is justificable to defend yourself from an attack where you are in fear for your life. If all you want to do is "scare away" the bad guy you are not yet at the "fear for your life" stage.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Wrong According to who?

You?

You are entitled to your own opinion, but your post really offers nothing.

You state that I am wrong vaguely stating mechanics and legalities, but offer no specifics.

Please expand your opinion,I would like to hear your take.

Totally agreed, if you are in a position where you have to draw your weapon, it had better be for a damn good reason. i.e. someone is in imminent danger.

Brandishing a weapon can lead to a menacing charge here, if not worse.

Carrying a loaded gun is a huge responsibility. We are held to much higher standards.

Then the gun should stay put.

G. Gordon Liddy described in his book the firearm instruction he received from the legendary D.A. "Jelly" Brice while in the FBI.
At the end of the session, Brice offered to file the front sight from Liddy's K38.
"Why would I do that?" Liddy asked.
"Cause if you pull it on a man and don't shoot him, it'll hurt less when he shoves it up your a--"

Scroll back through this thread. There are 50 states and the District of Columbia, each with a different definition of "brandishing." One statement does not fit all. You may have a handle on it in your state, and that's fine, but what you say may not be so in other states. It is true in all states that you may only fire a weapon when in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury, but even that becomes quirky when you ask "Can I fire if my two year is in danger of death or serious physical injury?" or "Can I fire at a person stealing my car in my driveway?" There are at least 51 different answers to those questions.

"Can I unholster without having to fire and without being charged with a crime?" is another example of 51 different answers. Your answer may be perfectly correct for your zip code. I'm not in a position to dispute that and don't need to. I know that your answer is incorrect in other zip codes, and that information is really useless for you, unless you travel to those places. If you do, I would trust that you would do some research about what the self defense laws are in that location, and not just concern yourself with the blanket "Can I or can't I carry concealed here?" Again, 51 different answers, but that first question we've been discussing is much more important to answer for yourself.

I'm not getting into a "link to this and that" debate, because I've said all I need to about this particular topic, nor am I disputing that in your locale you are correct. I am saying that blanket statements such as yours have the tendency to be incorrect somewhere, and they have a tendency to take on a life of their own, kinda like the "if you shoot somebody going out you window and he falls outside the house, you're gonna get charged with murder . . ." question that I still hear answered incorrectly all the time. That is all.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

On most of these "what if`s?" To me its foolish talk. Either I am fighting for my life or not. I will not be consulting a law book or trying to remember what was said on the net. If my life is on the line I wont be worrying about legality's. I am not going to shoot if there is any way out and if I have to shoot I will worry about the law later, period!

They kept hammering the above during our CCW class, and I was pleased to hear it. I'm sure it made the wannabe sheepdog crowd grumpy, but it's the law, so get over it.

Since CA was brought up in this fashion, I will post the actual law here:

Obviously, I didn't include the punishments. They are extensive and to save room it's enough to say you'll spend time in jail or prison depending on severity or who you brandished to or where you were. You can read it yourself here: CA Codes (pen:403-420.1)


Now, as to the"if you pull your gun you better shoot" concept. I understand why someone would say that, but it is the wrong mindset. It is better to say, "Don't pull your gun unless you're in fear of your life or that of your loved ones." It is possible that upon presenting the gun, the threat will end. In fact it happens the majority of the time.

The question I have is, where do you live Pierre330? If we had that info we could answer the question better.

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Freedom isn't free.

Here ^^^ is the key and I might add "an attorney in your state".

On brandishing, here is Mississippi law.

Mississippi Code on brandishing weapons:
§ 97-37-19. Deadly weapons; exhibiting in rude, angry, or threatening manner.
If any person, having or carrying any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword-cane, or any deadly weapon, or other weapon the carrying of which concealed is prohibited, shall, in the presence of three or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, or shall in any manner unlawfully use the same in any fight or quarrel, the person so offending, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined in a sum not exceeding five hundred dollars or be imprisoned in the county jail not exceeding three months, or both. In prosecutions under this section it shall not be necessary for the affidavit or indictment to aver, nor for the state to prove on the trial, that any gun, pistol, or other firearm was charged, loaded, or in condition to be discharged.


Probably very different than most other states.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Note that both the Mississippi and California statutes quoted allow for self-defense. The general rule is that SD is an affirmative defense, so you need to be very good articulating the circumstances and how your use of the firearm was necessary for self-defense. It's kind of like shooting, only not as loud.

Gee, I think said something to this effect earlier in the string.

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NHI, 10-8.

I'm in the free-state of Arizona, and this law has long been fought for.
Few examples of what used-to-be:

You're open-carrying, and have words with someone. When you turn to walk away, he sees your 'black pistol in a brown holster' and calls the cops on you. He claims Aggravated Assault, and that you put your hand on your gun. You very well could have been arrested because you had the means on your belt and clearly had the opportunity(cause your oppenent could SEE It).

You and your lady are walking out of a movie into a dark parking lot. A group of miscreant youths are approaching, clearly an inked-up gang (or reseaonable facsimile). They engage you verbally to size you up as a mark. You sweep back your covering garment and DO put a hand on your pistol. You respond, "Leave us alone, and we'll get out of YOUR way shortly". Juan and the boys drop a dime on you to the Man, even giving out a full description of your car and plate as you peel away. Of course, Juan will assert he was alone(or perhaps w/just ONE amigo)...and that he/they were scared-to-death of the crazy old white-man with a pistol.

The former turns your odds from facing an arrest, to a he-said, she-said, which may or may not have a follow-up investigation from a detective. The latter is a disparity of force situation, I'd much rather give the little ne'er-do-wells that chance to rethink their evening's fun, than to actually have to take one or more down. I'm sure we all would agree on that. SO, you can see how that new law really helps protect the armed good-folks.

Purely a state and local matter.

There are in fact, places where "brandish" has no legal meaning at all, including Ohio and Pennsylvania, if I remember correctly.

Other places (Texas?) specifically authorize you to threaten force as part of the continuum leading up to actually using deadly force.

I once threatened with a gun, a [probable] attempted carjacker who tried to force a friend and me off the road one night. He took off going about 100mph. Today I wouldn't do it. I'd wait until I felt in imminent fear of life and limb and just shoot him.

First I just want to say WOW! This is the longest any thread I've started has gone! Do I win something?

Second - I just want to add that my questions was merely an effort to educated myself in one of many forms. I usually research the **** out of any subject I'm interested in. On a topic like this I will normally go with the Ohio Revised Code pertaining to the subject. Research what 'experts' say, and then finally just get opinions from people familiar to one extant or another on the given subject. The last one would be you lovely people - and thank you all for the various answers!

Third - I'm not anywhere near being a "sheepdog" or feeling like have an "S" on my chest because I have a firearm. To the contrary - I take this kind of thing very very seriously and consider myself a peaceful man. Anyone who carries a tool that can take another human's life and doesn't take it seriously is a fool.

This is why I've gotten into this the way I have - learning as much as I can - taking courses, granted basic ones so far, but planning on more. Going to the range as much as I can to increase both my comfort level and proficiency. I know some of you shoot a lot - but from the people I've spoken with at the range - not many newbies shoot 2000 rounds in three months. It's all about respecting not only the tool, but the lives of those around you enough to be more than competent, if God forbid, you are ever in a situation to have to draw.

Now let me add - I don't think the sheepdog/internet ninja and whatever else was aimed at me directly. Just good old fashioned banter and debate I'll also add that as seriously as i take the responsibility of owning a weapon I'd be misrepresenting if I didn't say I totally enjoy time at the range making holes in paper

One night I got a call from a friend who's car had broken down. He was close to an open auto parts store and it was an easy fix. He just needed the cash to buy a couple of parts. It was only around 9:00 but it gets dark early around here in winter.

I got dressed and got my CCW out of the safe. In winter with a jacket I wear a bigger pistol OWB. I stopped at my Credit Union ATM to get some cash and while I'm at the machine 3 "young men" walk up behind me. They start talking about how much fun it would be to rob sombody and have some extra money. I was pretty sure they were harmless and just playing around but when I went to put my wallet away I made sure I brushed my jacket back so they could see my full size stainless 1911. They backed off about 10 feet and got real quite.

Could that be considered brandishing? It seemed at the time it was an affective deterrent.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

I doubt like hell that the three young men were going to complain to the police. Years ago I had to fire a tough ex lumberjack. One thing led to another and he attacked me in front of a crowd of people. I got lucky knocked him down and senseless for a minute. As his buddys was hauling him off he yelled at me that he was going to shove me and my trailer off the cliff. He could have done it too as I was camping in a forest service campground out of town and it WAS on the very edge of a high cliff overlooking a river far below. He also was awaiting trial for furnishing liquor at a under age party. After the party he was racing two girls on a mountain road and collided with them and shoved them off the road killing both. I knew none of that when I hired him. Fired him as he couldnt make it to work on time and after a couple times I wasnt going to wake him up any more. My other guys that knew him and the girls told me the word was they turned him down and he was mad chasing them. I moved my trailer to town and packed for awhile.

Based on the comment you heard, no, it wouldn't be the crime of brandishing in CA. However, if they decided to prosecute you, it would be a "he said/she said" situation in court.

Along those lines, I would counsel anyone to be very selective on a presentation like that. It would depend very much on how close the thugs were. Showing them that you have a gun in the holster could elicit a rush and they could tackle you before you could get it out.

Personally, I think it would have been better to present to the ready and command them to back off. This way you are not pointing the gun at them, but are showing that you're serious. This would almost guarantee them leaving in a hurry.

In either case, you did the right thing first by being aware. If nothing else, your heightened awareness kept you safe. You recognized a potential threat and formulated a plan. Once they reached a certain point, you put your plan into action. Good for you and well done.

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Freedom isn't free.

One more thing, the term "brandishing" is not a legal term in CA. We use it because it's what people are familiar with. However, in a court room it would probably be called "illegal display of a weapon."

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Freedom isn't free.

I could argue that I was just reaching for my wallet to put my ATM card and cash in my wallet. I never made a gesture toward the 3 "young men" or said anything. I only made eye contact so they knew I knew where they were. The ATM camera would not show more than that. Besides, Washington is an open carry state.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Yup. I was once cornered by a bad guy. I pulled my gun, and he ran away.

Ah, then in WA it's a complete non-issue. If it's legal to carry a gun openly then an inadvertent showing is nothing.

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Freedom isn't free.