Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense
o

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-04-2014, 03:42 PM
TexasArmed's Avatar
TexasArmed TexasArmed is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NE Texas
Posts: 657
Likes: 172
Liked 528 Times in 228 Posts
Default Multiple Assailant Situations

I was browsing around and found some info on another site about the chances of a shooter when taking on multiple bad guys. These stats assume that two hits are required to stop
one assailant, which does not seem unreasonable, and on
law enforcement shootings. It assumes a 30 percent hit ratio
Here is what I saw, cannot vouch for how accurate it might be.
But I normally carry two revolvers with ten rounds before reaching for a speed loader.

I am curious what some of you think who carry only a single revolver with think of this analysis. Are you better than the average law enforcement shooter? When it comes to taking out two assailants it appears to me that unless you are your chances of surviving such an encounter are much less if there are two assailants and you have only one five shot revolver.
I sometimes carry only one.

So if a two revolver person like me switched to semi automatic
what is the simplest semi automatic and caliber what would
you recommend? I think my hit ratio might be better than 30
but with a 38 Special as one of my guns it probably might take
two hits to neutralize an assailant. My primary carry gun is the
CA 44 Bulldog. If I made the switch it would be for the primary
carry gun to a semi? That stats I looked at are below and I
am very much a revolver man.

For a single assailant and a 30% hit rate probability.
# of Shots : Probability of achieving 2 or more hits.
5 : 47.2%
6 : 58%
7 : 67.1%
8 : 74.5%
9 : 80.4%
10: 85.1%
11: 88.7%
12: 91.5%

For two assailants and a 30% hit rate probability.
# of Shots : Probability of 4 or more hits (i.e. 2 on each assailant).
5 : 3.1%
6 : 7.1%
7 : 12.6%
8 : 19.4%
9 : 27%
10: 35%
11: 43%
12: 50.8%

Last edited by TexasArmed; 10-04-2014 at 03:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-04-2014, 05:24 PM
petepeterson's Avatar
petepeterson petepeterson is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,023
Likes: 6,228
Liked 4,828 Times in 1,867 Posts
Default

LEO hit rates should be substantially lower than a CCW holder, I would think, due to the distances involved. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but I'm not sure why I would be shooting much past 10-15 ft, and I would expect better than 30%. My expectations may be greater than my ability when the balloon goes up, though.
__________________
Because of the metric system?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-04-2014, 05:28 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,850 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Don't know that I've ever seen a statistic of hits on shots at less than 10 ft. ; or 5 yards.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:16 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 3,605
Liked 5,199 Times in 2,172 Posts
Default

The top factor in a shooting is the awareness, training, and skill of the individual. The most important thing about the hardware is that it works.

Local police force literally cornered a violent armed suspect in the outside corner of a building and 7 officers fired over 40 shots. Two bullets struck and dropped the suspect....BOTH FROM THE SAME GUN. Statistics are meaningless in an individual case.

I teach statistics in college, and what you need to understand is that statistics applied to sample of ONE have ZERO CONFIDENCE FACTOR.
Statistics only apply for large samples, not for a specific cases. A cancer patient is not going to 80% live and 20% die; he is either going to live or die, a binary result. Of 1000 cancer patients, you can calculate perhaps that 80% lived, or whatever the number for that group.

If you want to talk statistics, most careful individuals who carry a gun NEVER are involved in a shootout. Just like most people who carry fire insurance never have their house burn down. We are talking about reducing risk in relatively rare circumstances. The top risk reduction factor is the training and awareness of the individual carrying a weapon. In a crisis, we fall to the level of our training and practice, at best. Practice standing flatfooted taking careful aim at a small target and that is what you will do when you should be heading for cover and taking flash COM shots.
__________________
Science plus Art

Last edited by OKFC05; 10-04-2014 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:34 PM
Donn's Avatar
Donn Donn is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,421
Likes: 6
Liked 5,315 Times in 1,937 Posts
Default

There are any number of videos on You Tube, showing real world shooting situations involving two or more bad guys. I have yet to see one where the bad guys pressed the attack once the shooting started. As soon as shots were fired and especially if a bad guy went down, the rest turned tail and headed for the tall and uncut. Not saying it could never happen, I haven't seen one yet.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:55 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
So if a two revolver person like me switched to semi automatic
what is the simplest semi automatic and caliber what would
you recommend?
For someone familiar with a .38 revolver, I would recommend the M&P 9c. The caliber and associated recoil will be similar to the revolver. It can be had without a thumb safety. It's relatively small and concealable.

However, my first suggestion would be not to switch. If you're familiar with the revolver, switching to the semi-auto will take some time and practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
I think my hit ratio might be better than 30...
How do you know? I'm not trying to attack you with this. It's a proficiency question I ask myself every time I go to the range, "Am I really ready to defend myself? How accurate and fast am I with those two first shots without warm up?"

If you haven't ever used a shot timer, try it. It will add some pressure to your shooting. Of course nothing is like the real thing, but the timer is at least some pressure.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-04-2014, 07:08 PM
John R's Avatar
John R John R is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,216
Likes: 647
Liked 798 Times in 392 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
I was browsing around and found some info on another site about the chances of a shooter when taking on multiple bad guys. These stats assume that two hits are required to stop
one assailant, which does not seem unreasonable, and on
law enforcement shootings. It assumes a 30 percent hit ratio
Here is what I saw, cannot vouch for how accurate it might be.
But I normally carry two revolvers with ten rounds before reaching for a speed loader.

I am curious what some of you think who carry only a single revolver with think of this analysis. Are you better than the average law enforcement shooter? When it comes to taking out two assailants it appears to me that unless you are your chances of surviving such an encounter are much less if there are two assailants and you have only one five shot revolver.
I sometimes carry only one.

So if a two revolver person like me switched to semi automatic
what is the simplest semi automatic and caliber what would
you recommend? I think my hit ratio might be better than 30
but with a 38 Special as one of my guns it probably might take
two hits to neutralize an assailant. My primary carry gun is the
CA 44 Bulldog. If I made the switch it would be for the primary
carry gun to a semi? That stats I looked at are below and I
am very much a revolver man.

For a single assailant and a 30% hit rate probability.
# of Shots : Probability of achieving 2 or more hits.
5 : 47.2%
6 : 58%
7 : 67.1%
8 : 74.5%
9 : 80.4%
10: 85.1%
11: 88.7%
12: 91.5%

For two assailants and a 30% hit rate probability.
# of Shots : Probability of 4 or more hits (i.e. 2 on each assailant).
5 : 3.1%
6 : 7.1%
7 : 12.6%
8 : 19.4%
9 : 27%
10: 35%
11: 43%
12: 50.8%
Unfortunately most people are, a lot of the cops out there today are not shooters.
They shoot a few times a year only because they have to.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-04-2014, 07:23 PM
mc5aw's Avatar
mc5aw mc5aw is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The free state of PA
Posts: 5,224
Likes: 5,721
Liked 8,584 Times in 2,782 Posts
Default

Years ago when I attended Thunder Ranch for the first of two Defensive Handgun courses, I was subjected to a highly stressful training drill called the Charging Deck. Two shooters were stationed side-to-side, facing a pair of motorized targets that would "charge" at differing speeds to simulate a rushing attacker. We were tasked with drawing our handguns, barking out a "halt" command, and back pedaling to create distance, all while trying to put as many rounds on target as quickly as possible. I have never forgotten how fast 20' vanishes in a simulated SD scenario. I was a reasonably proficient shooter back then, and quite competent with my SIG 228s, but the Charging Deck was nerve-racking ... it gave an excellent approximation of what a real life situation might entail with a determined and advancing opponent. After the Charging Deck, I stopped paying too much attention to ballistics, and shooting %s as there are far too many variables in a real life occurrence to put my faith in statistical generalizations.

With the Charging Deck drill, I was well aware of my target, its approach, and the skills I needed to practice to be successful in the training exercise. Even then, it was stressful as Hades. In real life, a motivated assailant will most likely appear unexpectedly, trying to catch the prey item by surprise. One BG would be tough enough, but two or three would be a supreme challenge. My goal is to get out of Dodge ASAP, and to safety. If shots are to be fired, it will be under severe stress, and then only those that find their mark count. With a revolver, by itself or with a BUG, I have ~15 rounds at my disposal, so spray and pray is not a luxury I'll have. It will be fast, it will be ugly, and it will be over quick. I hope I'm on the winning side should such an encounter befall me.

As to switching to semi-auto from wheel gun, the only one I would consider is the Springfield XDS in .45. I had one and sold it, but it was a very nice pistol ... perfect for CCW, and it spit out big .45 ACPs. I would never CCW a 9mm ... no way, no how. As I prefer revolvers, I am committed to my J-frames, 686 snub, and 696 for everyday carry as the mood hits me. I'm waiting on a holster for my 520, which I will experiment with as a CCW since it holds a half dozen .357 mags. I have also worn my 624 snub under a coat, and it carries well enough to be another option. I figure a round or two of .44 Special HPs will send a powerful message to a would-be attacker. If not, I best get to cover or a long gun mighty fast, as the poop has indeed hit the prop.
__________________
I'm with the banned ...
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 10-04-2014, 07:40 PM
STCM(SW)'s Avatar
STCM(SW) STCM(SW) is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: E. Washington State
Posts: 5,475
Likes: 1,321
Liked 10,568 Times in 3,212 Posts
Default

"Unfortunately most people are, a lot of the cops out there today are not shooters.
They shoot a few times a year only because they have to."


That's been true for many years.
__________________
Only difference Fool/Mule-ears
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 10-04-2014, 08:15 PM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 8,959
Liked 1,270 Times in 693 Posts
Default

TexasArmed: As OKFC05 statistics are interesting though can be misleading. A 1 out of 1000 patients may have a stroke when give "clotbusters", while the other 999 and get improvement of the clogged arteries. If you are one of the 999 life is good, not so much for the other one. For the LEO stats I did not see what distances were used, nor were BG's shooting back. Skill level among LEOS varies, because of many variable. I started as a revolver shooter nearly 40 yrs ago and prefer them, unfortunately my pants start to fall down when I have a 44 spec snub in rt front and 638 in left front pocket, plus 2 speedloaders for both, so lately due to back pain the 44 spec in the safe, 638 in the pocket and my SigmaF 40 in a good holster with great belt have taken its place. A [email protected] = 10.89mm, my follow up shots with a 624 3" are faster than a glock 10mm 4". Since I do not know of any 44 spec auto loaders I would suggest M&P, Glock, Springfield XDM in 40/45, depending which fits your hand, how you hit with them. Unless I am focusing very hard I shoot high with glock 22,23, while I can shoot MY SigmaF 40 faster, more accurately, it's trigger is more like a revolver for ME. Try a few, hope none of us need to face 1 or multiple assailants, but it is still better to have thought about it, have a plan even if it does turn to ****. Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-05-2014, 04:46 AM
TexasArmed's Avatar
TexasArmed TexasArmed is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NE Texas
Posts: 657
Likes: 172
Liked 528 Times in 228 Posts
Default

Thanks for the responses. I am aware that the distances law enforcement shoots at and CHL holders may shoot at could vary a lot.
With all the flash mobs and now recent terrorist attacks by professing
jihadists, I am rethinking my long held decision to carry two revolvers.
So should I switch my main carry to a semi automatic I have not given
much thought to which semi automatic would be best. I would probably look for one that was light enough to carry but would be equivalent to
a 44 special. Since all of my ammo is 38 spl, 44 spl and 45, I would
look for one that used those calibers. I had a recent cataract surgery
now see 20/15 in my shooting eye, and am looking toward range
practice again before I make any decisions on a new firearm.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 10-05-2014, 05:05 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,581
Likes: 1,788
Liked 5,342 Times in 2,685 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasArmed View Post
I was browsing around and found some info on another site about the chances of a shooter when taking on multiple bad guys. These stats assume that two hits are required to stop
one assailant....
You can stop right there. You cannot assume that an assailant will stop with 2 hits. Even 2 good hits. They may stop eventually, the issue is will they stop quickly enough to preserve your good health.

Hit percentages can be all over the place. I saw NYPD stats where in some years the hit percentage was in single digits. I've read SOP-9s where there were NO hits at 6 feet (although estimates of distance under stress are not reliable-not sure where they got the distance determination).

I wouldn't worry overmuch about caliber, bullet weight, velocity etc. What's important is your ability to control the weapon and place rounds in vital areas of the target quickly. Don't depend upon having 2 hands available to control the weapon, the other hand may be occupied with other tasks.

Last edited by WR Moore; 10-05-2014 at 05:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:28 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,850 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Just realized something is missing in the equation and discussion so far; that could have a great impact......... let me throw it out.......

The "Why" are you being attacked?

A "mugger/ burglar" or 2 or 3 might turn and run at the sight of a gun or the first shot or hit........as their motivation is some quick cash or maybe rape....... move along nothing worth getting shot for here.......LOL

Flash mob....... maybe will disperse at the first gunshot. They are just out for a "good time"

Someone who's really ____________ off at you for whatever reason; maybe mixed with alcohol or drugs... may remain aggressive longer......he's there to kick your butt.

A Terrorist, Mall or School shooter or some "lone wolf" or other nut case probably won't stop until they are put down. He/she/they are there to Kill and or be killed.

Some thoughts to add to the discussion..........

Edit; the last group in all probability will have long guns and be shooting first......at a greater distance.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 10-05-2014 at 08:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 10-05-2014, 08:34 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 8,959
Liked 1,270 Times in 693 Posts
Default

My one and only semi auto 45 is a Para Ordnance Carry-12 LDA. Night sights, SS, 3.5" bbl, 12 +1 of 45 and it shoots like a revolver. Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-05-2014, 09:03 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 8,959
Liked 1,270 Times in 693 Posts
Default

BAM-BAM: I was originally from eastern Pa and do not believe the why is that important. Mugger- 2 to chest, 1 to head, if the others run, it gives me time to reload, call 911. Flash Mob- 2 to the chest, 1 to the head, if the others run, it gives me time to reload, call 911, if they continue to come ( a-la-Zombies ), keep shooting, till dry, pull second gun and repeat. You see my mind set, since I can NOT shoot 2 guns effectively at one time nor two targets at one time, I guess I look at it that I must "stop" the highest threat target first and increase my shooting cadence as needed, if the threat stops, I can reload, call 911. If you want to kill me for profit, "pleasure", dating your WIFE, or you are just crazy/or making a "act of terror", the only thing that changes in my mind is ( I wish I had brought 2 Thompsons with a few drums!!!! What do you think? Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-05-2014, 09:26 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,850 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Vipermd

I'm not saying that I would respond to 2-3 muggers, or a flash mob; by only shooting one with the assumption the rest will run........ I'm suggesting that how a confrontation may play out will be influenced by the attackers motivation.

So if you are "preparing" for a mugging/burglar one or two J-frame .38s may be enough..... most of the time.....LOL

If you think and are "preparing" for ISIL/ISIS coming to your home town.....then your Thompson might be a "good start!!!"
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 10-05-2014, 09:56 AM
Voyager28's Avatar
Voyager28 Voyager28 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 648
Likes: 598
Liked 879 Times in 293 Posts
Default

For the sake of discussion and controversy I will throw out the following:

Back in the day (Late 60's - early 70's) when I was a very young LE, I was required to attend a 5 day defensive shooting course at the academy. On day 4 we had an instructor from the FBI Academy in Quantico come in for a one day special session. The subject? Multiple Assailants.

Back then we had a lot of race related riots and assaults and is was this type of situation he mostly dealt with. Out of this one day course there are two things in particular that stuck with me:

1. When confronted with multiple assailants, there is always a leader. If you can determine which one it is, take him out and the "Pack mentality" will cause the rest to either flee or, at least hesitate, giving you time to seek a safer position. Most of the time the "leader" will be the one closest to you and the most aggressive.

2. "Center Mass" may or may not be the best target area, especially in the winter time. The hip and groin area has lots of support bones and major blood vessels. A hip bone being hit with almost any caliber will cause debilitating pain and, if broken by the round, will render the assailant unable to walk and he WILL go down. probably not dead, but he will go down. This goes for pelvis bone, hip bone femur or knee. Also, in the winter time, the hip and groin area will most likely have fewer layers of clothing to contend with.

Fortunately, I have never had to try any of this on a human assailant but I never forgot it.

Bob

Last edited by Voyager28; 10-05-2014 at 09:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 10-05-2014, 10:16 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,850 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager28 View Post

1. When confronted with multiple assailants, there is always a leader. If you can determine which one it is, take him out and the "Pack mentality" will cause the rest to either flee or, at least hesitate, giving you time to seek a safer position. Most of the time the "leader" will be the one closest to you and the most aggressive.

2. "Center Mass" may or may not be the best target area, especially in the winter time. The hip and groin area has lots of support bones and major blood vessels. A hip bone being hit with almost any caliber will cause debilitating pain and, if broken by the round, will render the assailant unable to walk and he WILL go down. probably not dead, but he will go down. This goes for pelvis bone, hip bone femur or knee. Also, in the winter time, the hip and groin area will most likely have fewer layers of clothing to contend with.


Bob
I've heard similar points made......

Point 2. was related to defeating body armor as the hip area is a lot bigger than trying to hit a bobbing/weaving head.

Point 1. Reminded me of the Tom Sellick movie "Open Range"... don't talk about it shoot the threat.......LOL
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 10-05-2014, 11:07 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 8,959
Liked 1,270 Times in 693 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Vipermd
I'm not saying that I would respond to 2-3 muggers, or a flash mob; by only shooting one with the assumption the rest will run........ I'm suggesting that how a confrontation may play out will be influenced by the attackers motivation.
So if you are "preparing" for a mugging/burglar one or two J-frame .38s may be enough..... most of the time.....LOL
If you think and are "preparing" for ISIL/ISIS coming to your home town.....then your Thompson might be a "good start!!!"
Totally agree with what you and Voyager28 were saying, just wanted people to focus on the front sight as opposed to being overwhelmed and moving to a spray & pray outlook , when only hits counts. Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-05-2014, 11:40 AM
mc5aw's Avatar
mc5aw mc5aw is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The free state of PA
Posts: 5,224
Likes: 5,721
Liked 8,584 Times in 2,782 Posts
Default

In Jim Cirillo's books and DVDs, he offered some interesting insights about # of hits and caliber effectiveness on any given perp.
__________________
I'm with the banned ...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-05-2014, 12:19 PM
ridgewalker ridgewalker is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Western USA
Posts: 731
Likes: 902
Liked 514 Times in 261 Posts
Default

Texas Armed. Where do you carry your 2 revolvers on you person? Being a revolver fan myself, I'm thinking maybe we can squeeze in a third. Like a 340PD on your ankle...

I don't know the crime situation where you live but it seems like you are already covered for 99.99999% of trouble.

I guess it's like they say, "you are not paranoid if they are really after you."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 10-05-2014, 12:20 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A Burb of the Burgh
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 1,614
Liked 19,850 Times in 8,772 Posts
Default

For those of us who don't have the Book....... can you enlighten us?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-05-2014, 02:34 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager28 View Post
1. When confronted with multiple assailants, there is always a leader. If you can determine which one it is, take him out and the "Pack mentality" will cause the rest to either flee or, at least hesitate, giving you time to seek a safer position. Most of the time the "leader" will be the one closest to you and the most aggressive.
Quality negotiation skills are a must...

fifth element-negotiation - YouTube
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #24  
Old 10-05-2014, 02:43 PM
TexasArmed's Avatar
TexasArmed TexasArmed is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NE Texas
Posts: 657
Likes: 172
Liked 528 Times in 228 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgewalker View Post
Texas Armed. Where do you carry your 2 revolvers on you person? Being a revolver fan myself, I'm thinking maybe we can squeeze in a third. Like a 340PD on your ankle...

I don't know the crime situation where you live but it seems like you are already covered for 99.99999% of trouble.

I guess it's like they say, "you are not paranoid if they are really after you."
Ridgewalker I carry my Charter 44 Special in a paddle holster, and my Smith & Wesson 38 Special in a pocket holster. I am
afraid a third revolver is out of the question since I wear mostly cargo type shorts almost year round. I can see the value of
an ankle holster inside a vehicle perhaps but would not be
practical for me the way I dress. I avoid heavy coats as well.

And no I have never been paranoid, after all I am carrying two guns. As for fam mobbers
they would probably run after the first shots, but now a determined jiahdistst might not.
A Thompson machine gun is not in my future if that were needed I am probably toast anyways.
Just thinking about the possible pluses of a higher capacity semi automatic.

Last edited by TexasArmed; 10-05-2014 at 02:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-05-2014, 07:20 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,581
Likes: 1,788
Liked 5,342 Times in 2,685 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
BAM-BAM: Mugger- 2 to chest, 1 to head,
The head shot is much easier to deliver with a keyboard or on a flat range than in the real world. Much more importantly, the head is a very heavily protected target for most pistol ammunition. Unless it's the only target available, it's a really, really poor choice. I'm personally aware of 2 cases (1 at a range of less than 6 feet) where the bullet skidded around the skull under the scalp.

A much better target is the base of the throat.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-06-2014, 01:31 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,638
Likes: 915
Liked 6,591 Times in 2,191 Posts
Default

I tend to worry more about my mindset, skillset development & maintenance and how to properly maintain my equipment (guns & holsters), than I do specific scenarios of "multiple attackers" and whether or not I'm carrying a hi-pistol (or more than one handgun).

Even back in the days of carrying issued 6-shot service revolvers this topic came up, and the "answer" back then typically involved more emphasis on tactics and skills. The introduction of a wider selection of hi-cap pistols (the M59 & Browning HP's were around in the old days, you know ), of better quality & reliability ... and increasingly better designed ammo in more recent years ... doesn't mean emphasis on the "shooter" influence can be relaxed.

While I can certainly see the merit of issuing hi-cap pistols to folks who make their living intentionally going out to look for criminal activities occurring, and being dispatched to suspected criminal activities throughout their shift, I don't lean that way quite so much for my retirement CCW choices.

For me, a "hi-cap" pistol usually means it has a 9, 10, or 12-rd magazine. (I only own a single pistol that uses 12-rd mags, and the rest use 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10-rd mags.)

I typically carry either a 5-shot snub revolver or maybe my LCP (6-rd mags), unless I'm planning to go somewhere that's more high risk than where I engage in my normal activities.

If someone wants to find out how well they can actually use their chosen handgun(s) outside of a leisure/sporting/target range environment? Perhaps it might be helpful for them to consider saving up for a defensive handgun class (or increasingly advanced classes), and/or participate in a local IDPA event. Might be an eye-opener.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 10-06-2014, 03:32 PM
Ranger514 Ranger514 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Northwest MT
Posts: 2,457
Likes: 9,823
Liked 3,352 Times in 1,336 Posts
Default

Like Fastbolt, I'm a little Old School when it comes to maintaining situational awareness, firearms maintenance, shooting skills, and defensive tactics. Maybe it's because, like him, I'm a retired LE Firearms Instructor and Armorer. I started out carrying revolvers, and I still have a great love for my S&W wheel guns; however, over the years, I've become a big believer in the higher capacity of semi-autos. Nowadays, my personal carry choice is 9mm. I believe with the proper HP ammo, it's an effective caliber for stopping a human threat, knowing full well that multiple rounds may be required with any caliber of handgun.

When I cc, I'm satisfied to have a minimum of eight rounds available in a P290RS, or 16 rounds in a G19, along with a readily available spare magazine for which ever firearm I'm carrying. I'd recommend daily dry fire practice to become familiar with bringing your chosen handgun to bear in an emergency. Everyone should know how to rapidly and safely draw wearing whatever clothing they might choose for the weather and activities of any given day.

If you want to learn to defend against multiple assailants, I'd suggest you take a course at an academy that specializes in defensive firearms instruction.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 10-06-2014, 04:24 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Well said Ranger514, but I'm not a big fan of high capacity guns. Let me clarify. If a person wants a 100 rounds magazine, I have no issue with that, they should be able to have one. However, high capacity should never be a substitute for skill at arms.

While I know most don't mean it this way, I've heard the phrase, "I'm not worried. I've got 30 rounds of X on me." Those 30 rounds are only valuable if you can put them on target.

I use this video in class a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaJVaYyHopA

This policeman fired 14 rounds (after he was safe behind the vehicle) and only hit the vehicle 6 times. It's obvious from the video that one of the very early rounds, if not the first, went though the back window. One of the rounds, we don't know which, went through the driver's seat headrest and killed the driver.

Is this an example of high capacity being valuable?
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 10-06-2014, 04:30 PM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,462
Likes: 3,179
Liked 7,844 Times in 2,818 Posts
Default

Why did the cop walk up to the vehicle with a flashlight in his gun hand?
__________________
Retired Career Security Guard
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-06-2014, 04:37 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
Why did the cop walk up to the vehicle with a flashlight in his gun hand?
There are a lot of mistakes in this video. Let's keep this on topic and discuss capacity. Do you have a comment on that?
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 10-06-2014, 04:52 PM
S&WIowegan S&WIowegan is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 4,106
Likes: 14,444
Liked 3,763 Times in 1,784 Posts
Exclamation

I carry a J-frame EDC and fully realize it's not very powerful. I also have had lots of training and shoot lots of combat-style matches. I can put 5 rounds right where I want them as fast as the semiauto shooters can. Mindset is tremendously important....are you fully prepared to take a life(s)? I am...I'm too old and fat to run but I can shoot fast and accurate and I WILL! Can you shoot well one-handed? I can since that's the way I started. Prepare yourself!

Situational avoidance and awareness are critical! Don't ever think "I have two guns so I'm invulnerable". Never go anywhere dangerous if you can help it and get the heck out if you can. Don't pull your gun unless you are committed to shoot. Shoot while yelling STOP! DON'T SHOOT ME! SHOW ME YOUR HANDS! I mean do both at the same time...no waiting...no warning shots....no pleading. PUT THE THREAT DOWN!!

If you can't do this get more training or consider not carrying. If I sound like a mean old hardass... I am. You're either a sheeple or not...no in betweensies.
__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Last edited by S&WIowegan; 10-07-2014 at 09:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 10-06-2014, 05:31 PM
jimmyj's Avatar
jimmyj jimmyj is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DUNNELLON, FLORIDA USA
Posts: 11,102
Likes: 1,690
Liked 16,302 Times in 4,231 Posts
Default

around the house and yard - S&W Model 60 and a extra speed loader.
away from the house - Glock Model 17 with a extra magazine
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #33  
Old 10-06-2014, 06:26 PM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 7,330
Likes: 7,503
Liked 5,556 Times in 2,547 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Well said Ranger514, but I'm not a big fan of high capacity guns. Let me clarify. If a person wants a 100 rounds magazine, I have no issue with that, they should be able to have one. However, high capacity should never be a substitute for skill at arms.

While I know most don't mean it this way, I've heard the phrase, "I'm not worried. I've got 30 rounds of X on me." Those 30 rounds are only valuable if you can put them on target.

I use this video in class a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaJVaYyHopA

This policeman fired 14 rounds (after he was safe behind the vehicle) and only hit the vehicle 6 times. It's obvious from the video that one of the very early rounds, if not the first, went though the back window. One of the rounds, we don't know which, went through the driver's seat headrest and killed the driver.

Is this an example of high capacity being valuable?
We don't know what his sight picture was. I'm certainly happy to hear that he put six rounds in the vehicle, and I'm guessing that that may be more than he would have done with a six-shooter. This case is an argument for full-capacity magazines.

I have no idea how well I would have performed in the same situation, but seeing as the perp is dead, I think the cop did fairly well (ironic understatement).

I am not even convinced that having a flashlight in hand slowed him down. The fact that the felon took the initiative was, as usual, one of the biggest factors.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 10-06-2014, 07:12 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,581
Likes: 1,788
Liked 5,342 Times in 2,685 Posts
Default

Jeff Coopers response to high capacity was to ask if one was planning on missing a lot. Well, none of us are planning on doing so (I hope), but as Field Marshall von Moltke said: "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

With the prevelence of multiple attackers and if you live a a rural area, ammunition capacity/basic load can be a realistic concern. The big issue is, as many have previously stated, mind set. Having a generous allotment of ammunition neither allows nor justifies frivolous use (waste) of ammunition. [One the other hand, an issufficient amount of ammunition can be fatal.]

Over one of the doorways at the Calvin A. Lloyd range at Quantico is a quote from a USMC manual. The essence of the quote is that the correct definition of firepower is "bullets hitting bodies". Can't do that without application of the fundamentals.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #35  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:15 PM
mc5aw's Avatar
mc5aw mc5aw is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The free state of PA
Posts: 5,224
Likes: 5,721
Liked 8,584 Times in 2,782 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Well said Ranger514, but I'm not a big fan of high capacity guns. Let me clarify. If a person wants a 100 rounds magazine, I have no issue with that, they should be able to have one. However, high capacity should never be a substitute for skill at arms.

While I know most don't mean it this way, I've heard the phrase, "I'm not worried. I've got 30 rounds of X on me." Those 30 rounds are only valuable if you can put them on target.

I use this video in class a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaJVaYyHopA

This policeman fired 14 rounds (after he was safe behind the vehicle) and only hit the vehicle 6 times. It's obvious from the video that one of the very early rounds, if not the first, went though the back window. One of the rounds, we don't know which, went through the driver's seat headrest and killed the driver.

Is this an example of high capacity being valuable?

Rastoff ... You make an excellent point, and one that I believe leaves too many folks with a false sense of security. In the majority of police shootings (that I have researched) involving more than one officer against an armed/allegedly violent BG, huge round counts have been tallied, with only small %s of hits on target. I think the average LEO is better trained with firearms than the average civilian, and is far more conditioned to manage stressful situations. Assuming that trained LEOs have disproportionately low hit %s in such shootings, it's reasonable to assume that the average civilian will have a significantly lower hit % in a similar scenario. Under stress and duress, a larger magazine capacity may lead John Doe to simply pull the trigger more often, with no direct correlation to shot placement. It might be reassuring to know there are double digits in the magazine, but it goes for naught if the target is not neutralized. As I have trained and carried revolvers for over two decades, my muscle memory is tuned into economy of fire ... I know that I have limited rounds, thus, consciously and subconsciously, my mind manages my rate of fire far better than if I had 13+ rounds in a single stack mag, with two or three extras on my belt. It's similar to being low on fuel ... I automatically know that I must moderate my speed when the red light goes on, or risk running out of gas.

Often at the range, I am in one pistol pit while a semi-auto shooter is adjacent to me. To a person, the semi crowd will perform rapid fire shooting at some point. 99.9% of the time, it's a futile ammo dump ... I patrol brass after everyone clears out, and am always surprised at the targets I see ... rapid fire is rapid nothing far too often. I practice from different distances, single/multiple targets, point shooting, and various other drills as the mood hits me. Speed comes naturally with repetition, and I am always cognizant of making my 5 or 6 rounds the best they can be. I'm no marksman, but I am quite comfortable with a revolver over a high cap semi.

If I want to waste ammo by rapid firing, I'll burn up some x39 in a Kalashnikov.
__________________
I'm with the banned ...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:33 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc5aw View Post
I think the average LEO is better trained with firearms than the average civilian, and is far more conditioned to manage stressful situations.
I'm not convinced. I've been to training with a few LEOs and I've shot informally with more. I think it's more accurate to say that LEOs have better opportunities for training than the average civilian.

To be really good with any tool takes desire. I think, just like anyone, most LEOs would forget the job while their not on the clock. Thus, their recreation is not necessarily shooting. Thus, their desire to be good shooters is not high.

That is not to say that many LEOs aren't good shooters. Just like any job, there will be a few who are really good shots, more who are just adequate. That's just life and not a knock on policemen at all.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:41 PM
Rpg Rpg is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Denver area
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 20,240
Liked 13,058 Times in 4,158 Posts
Default

I've never had the misfortune of having to shoot a human being.

I have shot a fair number of deer, elk and feathered game and been on hand when others have shot, or shot at, game.

My impression from hunting experience is that the more rounds available in the hunter's weapon, the more likely it is that the hunter will miss with initial shots.

It seems like folks with 3-5 rounds available (particularly with semi-autos) treat the first few as warm up shots and don't get down to serious shooting until they get off a few rounds. This is particularly noticeable in upland bird hunting where quick shooting is prevalent.

In contrast, those hunting with bolt action rifles or double shotguns are much more likely to hit with the first shot.

I don't think bolt action or double barrel guys are better shots:

I just think they aren't fooling themselves that they have lots of extra shots and therefore don't have to make each shot count.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of the shooting incidents in OP's statistical sample were using high capacity pistols. I'd be interested in seeing OP's statistics broken out by high capacity vs lower capacity handguns.

I doubt that a high capacity pistol is as helpful as many imagine.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-06-2014, 09:44 PM
mc5aw's Avatar
mc5aw mc5aw is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The free state of PA
Posts: 5,224
Likes: 5,721
Liked 8,584 Times in 2,782 Posts
Default

For what its worth, most legendary big game hunters (Corbett, Capstick, et al) carried a mere handful of rounds for their rifles when stalking the world's most dangerous critters. They relied on pinpoint accuracy to take their given quarry. Men with precision and nerves of steel.
__________________
I'm with the banned ...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #39  
Old 10-07-2014, 01:23 AM
Ranger514 Ranger514 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Northwest MT
Posts: 2,457
Likes: 9,823
Liked 3,352 Times in 1,336 Posts
Default

I don't claim to be pistol packin' sharpshooter. I'm "Expert" with paper targets, but almost anybody can shoot targets well. That isn't the same as dealing with the reality of a SHTF situation like the officer in the video. He experienced a natural "Flight or Flight" adrenalin dump that affected his mental and motor functions. If you think you'd be immune to a similar biological response in that situation, you're fooling yourself. While I'm certain there are a few Wyatt Earps and Bill Hickoks out there with ice water in their veins, who can stand and deliver pinpoint accurate return fire in a similar situation, they're definitely in the minority.

I've been trained and have trained others to point shoot handguns at distances up to 7 yards to rapidly deliver center mass hits on an attacker during a lethal threat. It's a lot more than just shooting paper, or spraying and praying. It requires mental preparation, situational awareness, good tactics, and muscle memory shooting skills. I heartily recommend a good academy that specializes in that type of training for those who want to go that route.

For those of you who favor wheel guns, I have no quarrel with those who carry any kind of revolver. I carried them for years at work and off duty. I still carry a revolver when I'm hiking or hunting. It's all a matter of personal preference. Carry what you shoot best, but have a reload available, cuz ya just might need it. Call me paranoid, but I'll stick with my semi-auto for EDC, because I want to have enough firepower to deal with a worst-case scenario involving multiple assailants, should that SHTF issue arise.

Train hard. Train well. Train often.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-07-2014, 05:12 AM
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 2
Liked 1,595 Times in 888 Posts
Default

There are some situations that are inherently non-survivable. Awareness , tactics , and a big measure of luck are more critical than relativly minor gradents of skill at arms.

And a relevenyt quote from a well know trainer and instructor , who was involved in enough LE shootings to have a first hand observations : "You are more likely to run out of time before you run out of bullets."

And for the record , I know of ( good friend was a participant) of a situation where multiple bad guys pressed on attack after A good guy was shooting back. After the Second good guy opened fire from a different angle the BG's reconsidered and exited (whereup a previously uninvolved off duty Fed Agent gave pursuit unsuccuessfully). Both Good guys unhit. One BG probably hit, but escaped under own power , probably due to body armor. One bystander shot , but not fatally, whom of coursed sued the good guys.

But back on course to the orig theme of this thread :

Two pistols are good. Two revolvers are viable. Personally I can count the number of occasions where a J Frame was primary/ only gun on one hand with fingers left over. * I * can't make a precise , rapid first shot hit with a J Frame(-ish) gun any where near as quickly as even a 2in K Frame. That's my issue more than one round of capacity.

I don't obsess over the number of rounds *in the gun* . I obsess over precise first shot hits , and having reload(s) for each gun.

If the OP WANTS a semiauto , his parameters are why Glock rapidly came to dominate the marketplace back in the '80s. No safety requiring delibert manipulation , similar recoil to .38+P , 17rd mag capacity , and at least sorta revolver like consistant trigger . Very quickly other mfg saw Glock's sucuess , and read similar market surveys , and introduced similar products. Many of those have become well respected guns themselves , including S&W's second attempt.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-07-2014, 06:24 AM
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 2
Liked 1,595 Times in 888 Posts
Default More purely gun & shooting skill

There are a higher percentage of LE and similar who are *into guns* than among the overall nationwide population . But that's damning with faint praise. The average LE wants to. Simply pass the once or twice a year Qualification, and then put it out of mind until next time. If they score several points above minimum , they congradulate each other.

That said , that level of skill of arms is *usually* sufficient. Good cops do accel at situational awareness, and good awareness combined with tactics that aren't totally stupid go a long way to survival , and hopefully prevailing over the BG's.

If we make a comparison to reasonably proficent general population gunowners, it's interesting. If you compare civillians who are gun enthusiests sufficient to join Gun Clubs and occasional participate in informal Club Matches to LE whose skill level is closely represented to that of scoring "Expert" at typical Qualification, those Ofc will typically place somewhere midpack against average Gun Club members.

I have above referenced several times to "Precise , rapid first shot hits" . My thinking on this has evolved.

For years I worked at drawing , and placing "center mass" hits , and I eventually was slicker than hog snot at hitting the 5pt zone of a B27 from the leather, and thought I was doing well.

And then one day at the gun club , we were informally shooting at 8in and 10in steel plates randomly placed between 15-25yds. Whoa ! Things were suddenly different. Using my then prefered ( style A) I could be my usual speed , but mainly be kinda close misses. I first tried to really do well at the same old technique , but to get consistant hits had to slow down to half speed. Humm. Started trying my quiver of alternative styles I had filled away . And eventually (style B) produced consistant hits , while picking back up about half the speed reduction.

And the point to all that ?

Meanwhile , I had been hearing from people whose judgement I give weight to consistantly that the maximum scoring zones of virtually all the humanoid targets then in use were way too big, and misplaced. Not going into the debate of exact location of desired targeting area in this thread , but in it's generous interpetation is in the same range of sq inches as 8 to 1in steel plates.

My real point after all that ? That I can hit the smaller , more effective target area with a K Frame ( or belt sized semi ) with similar speed to hiting "anywhere on torso" with J Frame ( or pocket sized polymer service cal semi ).

Meanwhile , there WAS a study that touched upon hit potential as factor of pistol type. Back during the era of flux , during the great transition of American LE armement , Richard Faiburn did a large study of LE gunfights , initially published in Police Marksman. Most of the attention was focoused on the relative effectiveness of the different cal and loads.(Skipping over for this thread) But he also discovered somthing else as a sidebar:

.38spl revolvers and hi cap semi's had similar hit percentages . However 1911's and magnum (loaded w/ magnum) revolver had about double the hit percentages.

He briefly guessed at causes. At the time , it was still common for 4in .38spl to be lowest common denominator default issue weapons , while everything else required decision making , if not effort and expense for ofc to use instead. Under than thinking , the totally uninterested stayed with std .38spl. Those inclined to spray and pray self selected to hi cap 9mm. And and those inclined to master a 1911 or full power magnum , were likely to have developed better marksmanship skills. Makes intuitive sense to me , but difficult to prove , and the era with substantial usage of that many different types of handguns was brief. [ Today were have great diversity of Calibres , but nearly all in hi cap semiautos of some flavor of either DA for first critical shot , or DAO-ish for all shots.]
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-07-2014, 08:10 AM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 13,625
Likes: 12,742
Liked 39,093 Times in 9,967 Posts
Default

I practice quite a bit and am a decent shot, but I will not make any predictions as to my hit count should I even have to use my gun in a close encounter of the worse kind. I am an ex Marine and have worked in some of the most dangerous professions, commercial fishing (yes crabbing too), oil exploration, bridge construction, etc. I have been in some gnarly situations where my fanny was on the line and did alright and am still here. But, I have never had to defend my life with a gun and until I do I will never know for sure just what I will be capable of. I like to think I would do well.

I once got a bite of line around my foot after the 1000# pot had gone over the side, in rough weather, I tried to kick it off, but ended up flopping on my back sticking my foot in the air and hoping my crew mates would save me. The rail man pinched the line between his back and the rail to slow the line down and another guy flipped the loop off while I stared at the wicked sea. It all happened in a few seconds. They saved me after I failed.

Last edited by steelslaver; 10-07-2014 at 08:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #43  
Old 10-07-2014, 09:36 AM
Old cop Old cop is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,783
Likes: 4,206
Liked 15,133 Times in 4,143 Posts
Default

I carry one 442 daily w/a speed loader on board. In retirement that should be enough. As to the hit ratio in a gunfight I can identify. In 1974 I confronted three armed robbers, along w/ two other cops, and a gunfight erupted in a parking lot. Using my issued Colt Det. Spl. I fired 12 rounds and only hit the BG 4 times for a hit ratio of about 30%. We were shooting over the hood of our respective cars moving around the whole time and it was after dark so I could not see my front sight.

Nothing is straight forward about a gun fight. Each situation is unique and the hit ratio will be driven by training, experience & the circumstances of the actual event.
__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #44  
Old 10-07-2014, 09:58 AM
Don 73's Avatar
Don 73 Don 73 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 606
Likes: 179
Liked 438 Times in 208 Posts
Default

I'm fortunate that I was born (or was unknowingly trained to be) a strong point shooter. I do not use my sights except for extended range, or deliberate head shots, I don't even focus on the front sight while shooting, I just seem to "know" where the gun is pointing. For those who can understand the connection, I shoot skeet better with a .410 than I do a 12 gauge.

Back to topic, I have seen many LEOs that I work with that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and I've seen shootings on the street at handshake distance (6 rounds fired) with nothing but peripheral hits (arm, leg, finger) AT LESS THAN 2 FEET!

We have in the past trained for multiple aggressors by lining up three targets in front of us and practiced putting one or two rounds in rapid succession in each target, then having the range officer call out "#3 is still coming" etc and we'd have to reengage the "still aggressive" target.

Sometimes we would modify this by only having 6 rounds in the gun and the instructor would wait until you were in the middle of a reload and yell that "target so-and-so was up and coming again" forcing you do do a fast reload and fire on the now "active" target.

I've seen too many shootings where someone who has been hit in the torso has run away, or didn't realize they were hit for several minutes. It's for that reason I prefer higher capacity, for those instances where you need to literally weigh them down with lead to get them to stop.

But I do agree that once the rounds start coming from the 'victim' the bad guys show their true colors and become the fleeing cowards that they are.
__________________
Don
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #45  
Old 10-07-2014, 10:34 AM
Smoke's Avatar
Smoke Smoke is offline
US Veteran
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,462
Likes: 3,179
Liked 7,844 Times in 2,818 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
There are a lot of mistakes in this video. Let's keep this on topic and discuss capacity. Do you have a comment on that?
There are a lot of variables in this and I’m not sure what order I want to address them in. I am all for capacity, I want the highest capacity handgun I can comfortably conceal.

I do train, I do work on my marksmanship but I also know from personal experience how fast your fine motor skills deteriorate when you undergo an adrenalin dump (another good reason not to have any extraneous controls on your handgun).

I mentioned this before but the one time I ever had to really clear a house my pupils were dilated to where I could barely see (too much light), When i finally found the "intruder" (Senile maintenance man who forgot to tell anyone he was working on my plumbing) all I could see was a blob and my front sight. I could hear the blood rushing through my ears, My breathing sounded like Darth Vader and I was sure everyone in El Paso county could hear it. I could feel my heart beat I would really hate to try bull’s eye shooting under those conditions.

Another consideration is that the real world isn’t like Hollywood.

In the video that circulating now about the State Trooper that killed a guy for reaching for his wallet, you can see the cop’s first or second shot hit the guy in the hip and he was still on his feet and able to walk away. I don’t carry “The most powerful handgun in the world that would blow your head clean off” and I want to be able to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat to me.
__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Last edited by Smoke; 10-07-2014 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Added detail
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-07-2014, 01:06 PM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 2,060
Likes: 8,959
Liked 1,270 Times in 693 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
The head shot is much easier to deliver with a keyboard or on a flat range than in the real world. Much more importantly, the head is a very heavily protected target for most pistol ammunition. Unless it's the only target available, it's a really, really poor choice. I'm personally aware of 2 cases (1 at a range of less than 6 feet) where the bullet skidded around the skull under the scalp.
A much better target is the base of the throat.
I agree a head shot is easier to deliver at a keyboard then with a J frame @ 7 yds on a moving target. But I was trying to make the point for " training" for the multiple assailant. If BG 1 keeps coming till contact then the whole "exercise" is a failure. As for shots to the head- I have seen many 20+ 25 acp fmj/jhp slide under the scalp, a few (2-3) 32's do it, 22lr, 9mm, 38,45 all penetrated the skull into brain tissue. The 22's all tended to break up, and I did see a few 9/45 complete pass through. Actually an attacker with a striking object only, would be stopped with shots to the pelvis very effectively, and the attacker would be unlikely to want to continue the attack, obviously with a firearm he/she could do so from the ground. From experience a fractured pelvis, will bring you down from a adrenalin/testosterone "high" nearly instantly, while mine did not come from "violence" ( basketball) it did put a damper on my positive mood!! Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-07-2014, 02:20 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,638
Likes: 915
Liked 6,591 Times in 2,191 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
...I think it's more accurate to say that LEOs have better opportunities for training than the average civilian.
Also a good chance the training will be paid for, or at least supplemented/reimbursed by their agency. Then, there's the strong possibility of having ammo provided, as well.

Often being paid to attend the training isn't a bad thing, if you can wrangle it, too.

Unfortunately, sometimes a little bit of "training" doesn't result in proper retention of any lessons taught, let alone guarantee they were learned during the training. Instructor-to-student ratios can sometimes be all over the map, too.
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #48  
Old 10-07-2014, 03:03 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,710
Likes: 2,926
Liked 17,102 Times in 6,271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Also a good chance the training will be paid for, or at least supplemented/reimbursed by their agency. Then, there's the strong possibility of having ammo provided, as well.

Often being paid to attend the training isn't a bad thing, if you can wrangle it, too.

Unfortunately, sometimes a little bit of "training" doesn't result in proper retention of any lessons taught, let alone guarantee they were learned during the training. Instructor-to-student ratios can sometimes be all over the map, too.
This is why I said what I said.

Learning is 80% desire. If there's no desire, it doesn't matter if it's free or not. If the student has little desire to learn, the results of the class are mostly wasted.

Student to instructor ratio is very important. I limit my instructional classes to 4 students because I want to give as much personal instruction as I can. It's also a safety issue at the range. I limit my CCW classes to 8 in the class room and no more than 4 shooting at any one time. Safety is key.

So far, most of my CCW students have been surprised that I've included actual pistol handling and marksmanship. Most come because they have to. It's my goal to get them to return because they want to.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #49  
Old 10-08-2014, 09:20 AM
diggler1833's Avatar
diggler1833 diggler1833 is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: OK
Posts: 279
Likes: 322
Liked 1,066 Times in 149 Posts
Default

OP: I love my M&P9C. 12+1 capacity, with another 12 rounds in a very small magazine. The pistol is also very easy to control.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-08-2014, 12:52 PM
badge badge is offline
Member
Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations Multiple Assailant Situations  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pa.
Posts: 765
Likes: 822
Liked 1,090 Times in 429 Posts
Default

Best thing is to avoid armed confrontations. Sometimes it is unavoidable. Try though. As for high caps,.... your in it, you will be VERY happy to have ALL the rounds you can possible have. Oh,... two to the chest and one to the head,........ very optimistic. You will in most instances have the briefest period of time to yank that weapon out and try and hit your assailant or assailants with as many rounds as possible WHEREEVER you possible can and if your smart you'll be trying to get to cover. You will revert to your TRAINING,...... period. TRAIN if your savvy. At least practice, carry reloads and I think a second weapon is advisable. Just some thoughts from an old has been.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you handle these situations? larryschwartz Concealed Carry & Self Defense 36 01-05-2014 09:58 PM
Hypothetical CC situations Der Biermeister Concealed Carry & Self Defense 32 10-23-2013 07:29 PM
The LEO who faced an “invincible” assailant. Kelly Green The Lounge 29 04-20-2013 11:54 PM
Civilian compared to LEO situations snub56 Concealed Carry & Self Defense 5 10-25-2010 04:56 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)