I live in a small town on a quiet street, but there is an undesirable element that chooses to venture over the town line looking for drugs and trouble on a regular basis. My house faces a bridge that crosses a river, on the far side of which is a local tavern where a good amount of folks imbibe several nights a week. As such, there are plenty of DUIs around here, as well as sundry individuals staggering back across the bridge homeward. We the people are vigilant about watching our neighborhood, and are always wary of strangers, etc. Last Sunday we had some trouble that could have ended badly ...

At 9pm, a group of seven adult males congregated across the street, carrying on loudly and causing a disturbance. Several cars were double-parked on the street, and it was obvious that these individuals were not neighbors or locals. Though I initially paid them no mind, their collective behavior was disruptive, and I watched from my window to see if contacting LE was required at some point. After a while, several of the individuals drove off, but two remained and carried on in even louder fashion. I assumed they were refugees from the tavern across the bridge, and they showed no signs of leaving the vicinity, thus I finally walked across the street and inquired as to them possibly being a bit quieter since children were sleeping, and residents were mostly in for the evening. Both of these clowns were holding cell phones ... the larger of the two told me they weren't being loud, while the other immediately became confrontational. I remained polite, and asked again if they could simply be quieter, or leave the vicinity. It should be noted that I did have my J on my hip, concealed under my jacket, as I did not know their intentions. The loudmouth, who resembled what most of us would consider a meth head, started in about "it's public property", etc. etc. etc. Then he told me to go blank myself, which I found to be rather uncalled for. I replied by clearly stating that I would be calling the police, though it would be easier to deal with me than local law enforcement. After a few more verbal outbursts from Meth Man, I walked back across the street to my house and dialed 911. As I was on the phone, the two individuals got in their cars, did a U-turn, then drove slowly up to my front door (15' from the curb), casing the house. I informed PD of this, and expressed my concern that these two were going to try something criminal. The two cars continued down the street, then stopped 200 yards away in front of the Public Library. I gave this information to PD, and was told a LEO was in route.

To make a long story less lengthy, PD arrived in minutes, and confronted the two troublemakers. Amazingly, these twin cretins were not obnoxious drunks, nor were they criminal types ... they were part of a group that was geo-caching. They drove over from NYS and were treasure hunting on their phones, looking for coordinates of specific items in my neighborhood. The loudmouth did not tone himself down for the officer on the scene, thus he received a stern warning about coming across the border in the future and causing a disturbance. That said, when LE came and spoke with me afterward, I was told that the two treasure hunters (and a woman in one of the cars) were eager to write it off as a misunderstanding. I conveyed my concern that they might come back for retribution, but was assured that PD had all the requisite contact information, and was of the opinion that the two idiots had no interest in coming back into our town.

The moral of the story is simply this ... a bunch of clueless fools on someone else's turf could have met a tragic end based on their conduct, attitude, and actions, especially in a Castle Doctrine state. Various factors could have easily escalated the encounter, and made the front pages of the morning paper. These types of "misunderstandings" happen far too often, and while I do not relish being told to go blank myself by some generic lowlife, I was satisfied that my cooler head prevailed and the encounter did not become more than it was. There is a fine line between restraint and action, and it is growing increasingly finer as we collectively remain on alert for predators in our everyday lives.

I urge everyone to be safe, yet be prepared. My rather innocuous encounter could have become something quite different if the loudmouth had tried to back up his bravado with physicality. Words are words, but unfortunately too many people today are more hotheaded than rational, and that's when things go south very quickly.

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I'm with the banned ...

Boy ain't that the truth. More people get shot over the most stupid stuff.

Common sense isn't shared by all.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Yep, I can't understand why people are so hard headed. I mean, all they had to do was say what they were doing and tone it down a little. What's so hard about that? Instead, they end up having the police called. Instead of just an innocent evening, they could have ended up in jail or worse.

Stupid.

mc5aw, I applaud your actions to try to talk to them first.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have a different take on the situation, but it's based on a personal experience with an unruly upstairs neighbor. Without getting into the rather lengthy story suffice it to say that my wife convinced me we should move, before I snatched the spine out of this guy.

My policy is now to call the police FIRST...without trying to reason with anyone. Most often, people KNOW they are being too loud - they just don't care. As you said, he was just as loud with the police officer. Also, I don't want to take the chance of making my home a target of retribution. The police say it's unlikely....but can they GUARANTEE it?

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Stay protected my friends.

The right to carry a weapon is the right to self defense, not to impose your will on others. When you carry, you give up the right to start arguments, settle insults or hurl them. You are not a cop. Let the police handle things of this sort.

You cannot claim self-defense if you are the instigator. You may feel you were in the right, but a prosecutor may see it differently. An incident which started over loud music ended badly for one unarmed youth and for the armed citizen who killed him.

If you have potential to kill or injure, I feel strongly it is always
a responsibility to use every measure to deescalate the situation.

I think you did well, but personally would chose to have the PD
do the initial contact.

Less fur leads to fewer fur balls............

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I Love This Site

I really understand how one feels about having to tolerate loud noisy people. So many such situations have escalated in the past to shootings
and/or retributions followed by shootings, that I go overboard NOT to
personally ask anyone to hold the noise down and I make no contact at
all. I would call the police to let them deal with it if possible. I have
ran my washing machine and/or dryer as well as my TV which masks
the noise. However, if I need to go to the parking lot to go or come
anyone who decides I look like prey to them will discover that I will
stand my ground and tolerate nobody who blocks me from reaching
and leaving or coming home with my vehicle. Once you have a
confrontation with them it could easily escalate to car tire slashing
and other problems too.

I believe your wisdom trumped their stupidity in this case.

Well done.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

First, IMO you would have shown more wisdom by calling 911 from the get go. Part of our taxes are to pay for Police Services and I won't hesitate for a New York minute to call 911 for some idiots who appear to be up to no good in public. BTW, in the 14 years I've lived at my current home I've only had to call 911 a total of 3 times so I don't abuse the system but I will call when there is a need. What I won't do is go out in the street and tell a couple in a heated argument out in the street to cool off, that's a job for the Police. The simple fact is that nowadays it's seems that bad actors are far more likely to jump a citizen than they were 30 years ago and what you did was put yourself at risk for getting jumped.

I'll also point out that you seem to have a mistaken impression on what Castle Doctrine actually means. I live in a state with Castle Doctrine Law in place and it does NOT mean I can shoot someone at will in a confrontation. All Castle Doctrine means is that if I feel my life is in danger I am not obligated to run in the opposite direction, I can stand my ground and use Deadly Force if there is a CLEARLY DEMONSTRABLE threat to my life. Take note of that distinction, you have to have the ability or evidence that there was a clear threat to life. If someone kicks in your front door and comes at you in a threatening manner you are permitted to defend yourself instead of trying to flee out a back door or jump out a window. If a road rager smashes out your side window with a tire iron you are permitted to defend yourself instead of trying to climb over a console and fleeing out the passenger door. Unlike what the News Media may lead you to believe Castle Doctrine does NOT grant someone a License to Kill, all it does is remove the obligation to attempt to flee if your life is in danger.

If your confrontation had turned into a shooting you wouldn't want me on the jury.
IMO there is no way it could have been a self defense situation because you initiated the confrontation by approaching them.

While I applaud your restraint when asking them to quiet down I agree w/others who said that a call to the police should have been your first step. During my 30 yrs. on the street I saw more than one of these confrontations go terribly wrong.

If you'd have been pushed into using your gun everything you own might have gone into defending yourself in a prosecution that likely would have followed. In a word it's just not worth it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I feel your pain, as there is a large herd of geo-caching yuppies that roams northeast GA off and on during the year. I have been in the stampede a few times. When they are not sitting in their Range Rovers or Mercedes ML's, you can I.D. them by their Abercrombie & Fitch clothing and poison ivy rash. It is best to offer assistance rather than imply they should move along. Or just call the law. The young officers seem to get along with the females in the herd.

I have gone outside to quiet people down before, but never took a gun with me. If I thought I needed a gun, I would just call the police. I like to take the easy, less-testosterone-filled route. I am glad it turned out well for you.

Interestingly enough, I have encountered these Google geo-caching folks before in the parking lot where I work, after hours. Apparently geo-caching appeals to cigarette-smoking, Asian-car-driving hipsters with smart phones and lots of time on their hands.

Generally, you may forfeit your claim of self defense if you are the aggressor. If I challenge you and ask you to please lower the volume and you respond by attacking me with a 2X4, I have the right to defend myself.

However, as others have said, these situations, just like road rage incidents, can turn into legal nightmares because in most states, you are expected to retreat if you can do so with complete safety.

Hindsight will make experts of us all. What you had at stake may have been a good nights sleep or the kids getting up and you having to put them back to bed. What those two on the street and a passenger in their car may have had at stake was something in the car they couldn't afford to be caught with. If they too were armed and willing to act out, it might have been chaotic without notice. If you have a reasonable response time from your LEO, let them do their job. If you don't, how long do you want to be in the street without help,if things go bad?

I was at a convenience store late at night about 15 years ago, pumping gas. I looked at the doors and a seedy looking fella went in alone. Within a minute the "ample woman" that was pushing a mop commenced to beating him about the head with the mop handle. I finished and heading in to pay, I unholstered my 6906 holding it low and behind my hip. Said guy comes flying out the door and runs toward the RR tracks behind the store. I asked the cahsier "you OK?" She says "Oh, that was my old man wanting drinking money. I said no." Hard not to read that situation wrong. Holstered, paid and left, my heart still banging. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

pharmer, the guy had an overweight, abusive wife...no wonder he drank! Did you chase him down and give him a few bucks, LOL!

Speaking as a former Geocacher, most of them prefer to get in and out quiet. No noise and no disturbing the locals.
Most of the time you will never know they are there.
One time I was standing in a small grove of trees in a small town, W Arkansas on I-40.
I see this police car rush down my way. He stops and runs my way.
He asks what are you doing? I tell him.
He says we just a bomb threat at the high school.
I look at a large building about 200-300 yards away.
Is that the High School . He says yes. Don't worry, I'm not going over
there.
He leaves just as fast as he arrived.
Geocachers are supposed to stay off private property.
Public land, we got plenty of it out West, is open game.
So are parks and Highway right of ways.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Not all geo-cachers are quiet and polite. I am convinced many of them cannot read. Many a herd have been confused by this sign.


They needed to go to the state park one mile up the road, I guess the word "Falls" confused them.

What were you going to do if the beating was still in progress when you entered?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The old saying is that a cop is a few minutes away but my gun is a second away is what I go by when and if I am in that situation. Meaning if I feel there is not immediate danger let the cops do their jobs but if I or my family or property feel threaten and do not have the few minutes, I will call Mr Smith & Wesson or Mr Ruger or Mr Colt or Mr. Glock and if needed maybe Mr CMMG to do their jobs. But the cops will be called first.

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Ricky
Coastal GA

Fourteen thousand years ago, imbeciles wandered away from the camp fire as children and got eaten by something before they were able to pass their defective genes along.

These days that job seems to have passed to other morons, law abiding citizens and the police.

It's the job of the police to enforce the law, NOT to protect individuals.

It's MY job to PROTECT myself and anyone else to whom I feel a duty of care, NOT to enforce the law.

Confusing the two can and does get people killed, either because they believe the fairy story that the police will "protect" them as individuals, or because they try to do what the police are supposed to do.

Simply outstanding summation!

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Old paratrooper in NC

If we have gotten to the point where a person cannot make a simple request of another person to act civilly, then all is lost.

And while I agree (in hindsight) that contacting LE before making an effort to quell the situation would have been prudent, I am at a loss by anyone's opinion that I was in fact an aggressor in the situation, and that carrying my CCW was looking for trouble. I carry my revolver with me wherever I go, end of story ... to the market, hiking, into the restroom at WMart. How many Forum members would have left their firearms behind in a similar situation? To me that would have been foolish. Carrying a sidearm is not synonymous with looking for trouble ... that's the mantra of the anti-gun establishment, and anyone who insinuates that here is being rather hypocritical.

As to the Castle Doctrine, I am well versed in its parameters. Should the two individuals have followed me back across the street and attacked, or attempted a home invasion, my SD actions would be far less limited than in a more restrictive non-CD state.

As always, opinions pro and con are always welcome to initiate discussion.

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I'm with the banned ...

If a Geocache is a problem near your property, tell the next Cacher you see out there about it.
Cachers usually don't know the cache owner, but a Cacher can email the cache owner same as here.
Most cache owners most of the time will disable and relocate the cache.
Opinions vary on cache locations, just like everything else. I have seen caches hidden in front yards. The cache owner asks you to ring the doorbell and say hello.
Yes, this is in a small town. Yes, there still small towns in America.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

A new homeowner in Oakland CA., trying to improve the neighborhood, had purchased a fixer-upper.

There were some street types breaking bottles (glass) on the sidewalk outside the home. He goes out to give them a piece of his mind.

He's dead, they stabbed him. Just sayin.

Having a problem with ego, attitude, and a big mouth is a sure way to get into big problems very quickly. "I will tolerate rude behavior in a man" Capt. Woodrow Call (sp). From Lonesome Dove.

I've been geocaching for more than a decade and am truly ashamed at the behavior of some of the newbies to the hobby. My rule is to always be cordial, considerate, and compliant to the people in the areas where I am enjoying geocaching. The ability of cell phones to be used in g/c has been responsible for a lot of this. Before them you had to make a pretty substantial investment in the hardware to participate. Unfortunately, any idiot with a cell phone can search today. This is not meant to denigrate legitimate Groundspeak members, however. Just the ones like the OP mentioned.

Also, when I go geocaching, I'm always armed too. Not in restricted areas though.

Glad it turned out that no one was hurt which could easily have happened.

I certainly won't be the one to tell you that all is NOT lost.

This once again comes back to how children are raised... or not raised.

When you tell kids that they're "special", not because of what they do but because of who they are, and never tell them "no", you create a LOT of malignantly narcissistic bullies who expect YOU to dote over them like mommy.

Some of them are just arrogant and selfish. Some are verbally aggressive. Some physically so.

The latter sometimes write BADLY overdrawn checks which their behinds can't cash. To be fair however, they DO give us a lot of anecdotal information on the relative stopping power of various cartridges and loading variations thereof...

I have a loud clear voice and a vocabulary that would make R. Lee Ermey turn pale. Certain things really anger me. I have a preference for vigorously informing people of the unsatisfactory nature of their actions. Bad mix.

I do not gain any benefit by interacting with people I dislike or whose conduct annoys me. I put a lot of effort into not doing so unless it is too hard to avoid (immediate safety problem etc). If it is a problem, I prefer to call LE and let them deal with it. They are neutral, I'm the complainant, and I make a record of being a reasonable person by doing so. If someone tries to do something to me as a result of my calling the police, the record favors me, and they potentially have a massive legal problem in the nature of witness tampering.

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NHI, 10-8.

I don't like most people in general. It's not that I hate them, just that they have no qualities which would make me want to interact with them in any way. Good books make much better companions.

When it comes to STUPID, MALICIOUS people, I have a real distaste. I avoid them at all cost. The cops get paid to deal with them, and they're the ones to whom I delegate that responsibility.

Thankfully, I didn't need to play it out. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

A mile up the road? Geo-caching is done with a GPS. The worst GPS in the world wouldn't lead them to that sign. Those must be the stupidest geo cachers in the world.

I certainly wouldn't put you as the aggressor, but some would. I think you were prudent to take your gun with you just in case things go badly. However, it's a lose-lose situation. If you don't take your gun, you could be overwhelmed by the people you're confronting. If you do take your gun, and have to use it, people will say that you went with intent to do harm. It sucks, but that's the world we live in.

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Freedom isn't free.

"A mile up the road? Geo-caching is done with a GPS. The worst GPS in the world wouldn't lead them to that sign. Those must be the stupidest geo cachers in the world."

My wife has a Tom-Tom (?) GPS and it is not correct there, so perhaps the couple leading the expedition had the same device? Tom-Tom shows old logging roads as major streets.

Everyone else was just following the leader. They were an odd assortment of folks to be sure.

I think you did the right thing. I generally will try to reason with someone in a similar situation. If the problem continues, then I will up the ante by calling the police. You did your best to reason with the people and didn't use foul language or raise your voice, even after being verbally abused. Ya done ok in my book. BTW, I always go about legally armed.

I totally agree, let the Po Po do the dirty work.
Saves a lot of problems for you.

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John

More likely, you would be portrayed as the "initiator" of the conflict, and questioned as to why you chose to confront those people (especially ARMED)...rather than letting the police deal with them.

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Stay protected my friends.

Confronting a couple guys, that you assume are intoxicated, in order to reason with them... what could go wrong?

While I applaud your cool head during the encounter, I don't think it was the best idea to put yourself in such a position to begin with.

How can someone be considered doing wrong by attempting to talk to someone and asking them to modify their behavior? This attitude is what has caused people to sit in their homes and not interact with their neighbors, but call the police when there is a problem. I can't envision a jury coming to the conclusion that discussing a minor problem with someone before calling the police, would be considered wrong on any level. Now if the person attempting to discuss the problem was displaying inappropriate behavior, then that might change things. Now, if the people displaying the bad behavior includes felonious acts, then by all means the police should be called first.

According to the OP they were not recognized as neighbors. They were loud, disruptive strangers assumed to be refugees from a tavern (intoxicated). The OP left the safety of inside his home, walked off his property and across the street to confront these disruptive and presumed intoxicated strangers, admitting that it could have ended tragically.

Curious how folks see things differently. Some see nothing wrong. I see nothing that isn't wrong. Sometimes in situations I ask myself how I would advise a family member. In such a case I would not advise anyone in my family to do that.

My response was that I didn't think that it would be reasonable to say that the OP was the "initiator" of an incident, simply by doing what he did. I still don't see it that way.

Attempting to talk to someone is not the problem. The problem is (or I should say "could be") approaching people he suspected of possibly being inebriated, and trying to get them to behave rationally. If the situation deteriorated to the point that he had to use his firearm it's VERY EASY to see a jury wondering the following:
If he felt the situation might result in him needing his firearm then why didn't he avoid it altogether? The fact that he saw fit to take a gun with him is HIS acknowlegment that this could be dangerous, and he did have options.

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Stay protected my friends.

Welcome to the current US judicial system. In the eyes of a lawyer or prosecutor, the person engaging would be the aggressor no matter how innocent or right they thought their actions were. The people in the street would claim they were just legally minding their own business when you approached them in an aggressive, demanding, and threatening manner and they had to defend themselves. It doesn't matter if it really happened that way or not. Good luck in trying to prove it. It's better to just let the police do their job.

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M&P Shield 9MM

Nothing wrong with dispersing a group being loud,but if you feel you need to be armed to do so,then you might be a little over your head.Best to just let the PD handle things.Glad things worked out for you and you weren't harmed.

I'm not picking on you Laketime, but several here have said the same thing. Why is leaving the house for this situation any different than leaving the house normally?

There are plenty on this site that talk about how they never leave their home unarmed. So, why would you ever leave the house unarmed? Especially when there is a higher probability of needing it?

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Freedom isn't free.

That about sums it up. I spent 35 years dealing with drunks and druggies and now, as a civilian, avoid them like the plague. To paraphrase an old saying, "Never try to teach a pig to sing, you'll waste your time and annoy the pig". So let's leave them alone and not find out the hard way we're dealing with a chronic case of stupid.

No offense taken,and certainly nothing wrong with being armed everyday.I would advise anyone not to approach a situation that they can not knowingly control.Being armed can only escalate a situation in which you have already lost.Regardless I am glad that all turned out ok.

IMHO : STAY inside your home and call the Police.

No one can expect to control any situation. Like I always said, I always go about legally armed. I suppose a lot of these views indicate the area of the country in which one lives or has lived.