Considering all the violent riots and property destruction certain elements of our society heap on communites every time one of our dedicated LEOs shoots an aggressive non-complicant suspect, whether armed or not, I often wonder what would happen to one of us private citizens who might have to shoot for the same reason to protect ourselves/family at home or this time of year in a shopping center parking lot.
Get's sort of scary when you really think what could happen to our family from threats like the LEO in Ferguson got and finally had to resign from his job.

Sure. Look at the Korean store owners during the Rodney King riots. They didn;t blink and nobody messed with them after.

So true...... my circle/duty has tightened to my wife, two boys and me.......beyond that ...... not sure anymore!

Sad.........but reality.............

Better to be judged by 12 and alive than carried by 6 because you are dead. One thing is for sure, your life will be a living hell for at least a year after and you will probably be in the poor house after all the legal bills; assuming you are judged innocent in the trial. You will be judged guilty by the media automatically, that's a given.

If I am given the choice between defending myself or family and suffering bad publicity, legal fees, and other negative side effects vs. dying or watching a loved one die, the decision is a no brainer.

With regard to LE officers, they face much "Monday morning quarterbacking" by all sorts of people who have no clue about split-second decisions in life threatening situations. I salute every one of them for taking on a job that is fast becoming one that perhaps plenty of people now have reservations about doing.

Some officers will likely die because of the tendency to "second guess themselves" or due to hesitation for fear that the public, the media and the "system" will betray them. And, it is so unnecessary for it to "come to that."

Personally, I have found it really easy to not get shot by an officer, not only in the US, but everywhere in the world, including places where Americans are not well regarded, or at least regarded with great suspicion, including the USSR and China when they were really communist, not to mention some other hell-holes, such as real (not resort) Mexico and some other "tin-horn dictator" Caribbean locales.

All I had to do was mind my manners, follow instructions and not attack an officer or grab for his gun with the intent to kill him. Pretty simple formula.

Sorry if that was "politically incorrect," but it has worked for me.

Same here, sir!

The common issue in these riot situations has been "questionable" actions by, as you identified LEO's. As long as you are not LEO I doubt your involvement in a valid ccw scenario would cause riots or looting.

Your time would be better spent worrying and preparing for random home invasions, active shooter in your place of work, or road rage violence.

Be alert, prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Sorry to say this, but these people that are rioting are just looking for an excuse to have a free for all.

If Wilson had been indicted, the same people would have done the same thing using the excuse it was a celebration.

Just no way of winning with this mindset.

What really gets me is these people come from all over the country to cause problems, like I said, it's just one big free for all.

A friend of mine said it best, Fly over and drop job applications and watch them scatter.

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John

Totally agree with you! Same here in France with the young killed by a "non lethal hand grenade " few weeks ago, by a french Gendarme ....the trouble is , most of the time , the media cover....for the riot in Fergusson, nobody (media) care about the fact "why the cop kill that guy, but only "...a white cop kiledl a young black boy AGAIN (....)Media didn't care about the case and the story, even if it means telling the truth......just " one racist kill again" and remembered the Zimmerman case in Florida, few years ago!
R.

That's my circle of responsibility as well - one of the liberating benefits of retirement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If I were not willing to shoot anyone attempting to pull me out of a vehicle or my family, then I would not carry a handgun. I figure after you shoot about three or four the rest may run. But if they don't I will
know I took some with me. My hollow points are color blind, and they
may kill me anyway if they get me out of the car so I would rather go
down taking some with me. Sometimes you just have to raise the price
for attacking an old man. Same thing applies to flash mobs that want to
stomp someone. At least I do not intend to be shot with my own guns
because my guns will be empty before they take me.

On the average, if you pop a perp you are probably more likely to have a problem with a civil lawsuit than you are with the risk of being prosecuted.
The vultures (lawyers) are circling. Just watch their ads on TV.
They will get justice - defined as a large percentage of the monetary award - for their clients.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I have been running a bar for many years an old social club, I am there in the early am's turning the register drawers from the previous days. I always carry my model 12 or a 442. One morning a cinder block came crashing through the side door of the building and a man walked in. I was in the backroom and came out with the 442 drawn on the subject. he stopped in his tracks. and I told him to get on the ground then I hit the panic alarm near the register. The PD showed up arrested him. Come to find out it was a cracked out son of one of our members who I did not know. I got the same question would you have fired. If he got inside my zone yes without hesitation.

Just food for thought

Pete

"Sometimes you just have to raise the price"
Very well put TexasArmed,I really like the context of that.The bigger,badder dog ain't always bigger and badder,he's just had enough.The look of disbelief on the face of that jackass that thinks he is gonna get away with it again,now that's "Priceless"

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I'm just here for the guns.

FYI, the store owners in Ferguson who stood armed guard outside their stores were not looted, either. Pictures are out there.

And, yes, we would fire. Millions defend themselves every year with handguns. Sometimes they pull the trigger; often they do not have to. If you're not ready, willing, and able to pull the trigger carry something other than a loaded handgun, please.

***GRJ***

I think for that situation the act was appropriate and you didn't just start shooting him. You got the drop on him and he wasn't after you personally. I hope he is a really grateful crack head for your control.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Under the "right" (i.e., legally justifiable) circumstances, if you are not willing to shoot you need to strongly consider not having a gun. No use in having one and getting injured or killed, perhaps by your own weapon after someone disarms you.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Looting often accompanies riots, whatever the reason for the rioting. We hail those who protected their property with firearms. Yet, there's a wrinkle in the use-of-force laws of most states in that you may not use deadly force to prevent a property crime or to merely protect property. You must know exactly what your use-of-force laws permit in the state in which you reside or where you may have to use force. The only usual exception is arson of an occupied dwelling.

During Super-Storm Sandy, a local retail business near me posted a huge sign reading, "Looters will be shot." Really? I'm in New York, a very blue state. Had the proprietor carried out his warning or advisory, he would have faced very serious felony charges and life as he knew it would come to an end.

Sorry, I don't have a sure-fire answer to prevent looting that will pass legal muster in all 50 states. But, my continued freedom is worth more than the contents of a store.

Yes many states have different laws on property. In Texas
we can use deadly force to protect property from being carried
off or driven off etc. Texas statutes 9.41 & 9.42 defines those
rights. Texas does not require a property owner to be in fear
for their life to stop someone escaping with property, and allows
for pursuit to prevent them escaping during the night time.
So them signs in Texas that say "You Loot, We Shoot" mean what they say. Many years ago during a hurricane in Galveston,
Texas 200 looters were shot. We have had some isolated incidents of looting but nothing on a large scale.

A recent case some years ago, was the Joe Horn case in Pasadena, Texas that was no billed (all cases in Texas usually go to a grand jury), three burglars were shot had broken into
his neighbor's house, and Joe Horn went outside contrary to the
dispatcher's request he say where he was. One of the three had
a crowbar, and refuse to stop when they came onto Joe Horn's
property. Other cases where repo folks have been shot can
also be found where the person thought his vehicle was being
stolen.

I posted in another thread, the way to stop looting is fly over head and drop job appellations, they will run away in fear.

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John

I found this along time ago and believe it says it all;
"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass"
Tpr. M. Padgett

Jim

Unless you have ever really had to confront the decision to fire, be you LEO or armed citizen, you cannot know with absolute certainty what you would do. I believe I could fire. I prepare myself mentally to do so at need. I can't really know unless I'm faced with it, especially since I have no family here to defend.

That's just a fact of being human. We can and should prepare, mentally and mechanically, but we don't know for sure till push comes to thug.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Looters have traditionally always been shot. Dead.
Arsonists touching off an occupied building are fair game here also, and carjackers.
Have any of you ever punched a lawyer?

I know this is the popular zeitgeist, but is there really any empirical evidence or confirmation of looters being shot dead in the 20th and 21st centuries?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

During the aftermath of a F-5 tornado that passed through my little hamlet in 2011, there was a looter shot right behind my house. Don't know if he died or not. Looters came from as far away as Florida to join in the frolic. We didn't have open carry at that time, but I open carried form several days, and spent some time on the front porch with a loaded Mini 14. The gangs of looters went on down the street.

I searched for this story. There was a burglar shot inside Fuel City. The owner, armed with a firearm, awoke to find a burglar in his business. This is a valid shoot all day long. This was a burglary of an occupied structure, and the owner felt his life was in danger. Shooting looters on sight, as has been suggested, doesn't happen. You cannot shoot a person running out of Best Buy with a big screen television under each arm.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I hope and pray the situation never happens but I do have the skills to protect my family if need be.

I had a bad guy look in my truck once and he seen my double barrel 12ga sitting there with the 30" barrels. No words were said but he did walk away. It's wasn't his day.

When I got my ccw license my uncle told me he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. I told him it's better to have a sword then not having a sword.

Here, people are too civilized to riot.

What's worrying, is shooting someone who happens to be a gang member, and being subjected to revenge from other gang members.

In any event, you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself. What happens after that - so it goes.

AMEN!!! I was in an armed post for a year. Choice of weapons: Mini 14 (.223) and a 40mm gas gun with solid rubber projectiles. 2 inmates start to assault a 3rd. All with their backs to me, so I couldn't clearly see any weapons. With the shooting policy and writing skills I could have shot the mini. In an instant your mind plays out a MILLION scenarios. I ended up using the xact impact round and hit one of the assailants square in the back. He curled over and the other assailant hit the dirt... Just saying, until a person is faced with life/death situations you never know.

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Not enough space

Don't you just love the society we've become? The honest law-abiding citizen with everything to lose has to second guess whether they should defend themselves against the federally protected criminal species.

Unfortunately not every member of society shares in this sentiment. If you observe recent protests (Occupy Wall St., etc.), you will notice a cadre of individuals who believe it is their God-given right to confront police with everything from taunts to flaming bottles of gasoline, as well as destroy to property and loot for fun and profit. Some are closet anarchists looking to start trouble, others are gutless opportunists trying to incite conflict for the purposes of personal gain and/or litigation. Every single one of them is a scourge on our nation, and deserves to be treated in the harshest manner possible.

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I'm with the banned ...

To get anyone to not respond with like force is one of the goals of these people.

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LEX ET ORDO

Fact is, defend yourself with lethal force and you're rolling the dice, regardless of circumstance. Even if you're cleared by the authorities and live in a state where you can't be taken to civil court, life changes forever. Mr. Bad Guy has family & friends who are going to know you, your family and where you live. At the very least, you'll be forced to move, more than likely out of state. This isn't to say we shouldn't defend ourselves and family by any means necessary, but always be aware of the other shoe dropping.

I found out first hand the hard way, & never fired, even though I had 100% justification. NOT GUILTY does not mean innocent, just that guilt cannot be proven, and yes the cost/time fear changes your life forever. While I most likely would not shoot an old lady for ramming my bad ankle with her shopping cart at walmart (tempting as it might be), If my life, or another's were in a true near death/severe risk of bodily injury, I likely would. As said you can't predict the future though.

Like Al Pacino said on the movie "Heat":

"If it's between the suspect and some poor guy, whose wife he's gonna turn into a widow, brother, he's going down."

In 1968 after the King assassination we had rioting in the West End of this city. It was in my long-ago ministry days, and I was doing volunteer chaplain duty at what was then our main trauma center. I saw a fifteen-year-old boy brought in. He had taken a load of 00 buckshot in the face and neck area, shot by the police while he was looting. As I recall he had both hands full with a television set. He was unarmed.

Taking him to surgery was a formality. He was dead or within seconds of death when they wheeled him past within two feet of me.

So yes, empirical evidence exists.

His mother went before the TV cameras and begged parents to keep their kids at home so they wouldn't experience her grief. And the rioting subsided.

I'm not prepared to say the kid's messy death was an appropriate sacrifice to defuse the disturbance. Maybe it was, but that's not my decision to make. It troubles me to this day.

I'm happy to report that we have an excellent, very well-trained metro police force today.

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Oh well, what the hell.

It used to be that if someone was committing a felony and was killed, it was justifiable homicide. That changed in the 80ties. Different states had different rules. In some states adultery was a felony. You can see where mistakes and misuse could happen, and it did. Of course, the criminals had to be a lot more careful.

I am old and have lived almost all of my allotted three score and ten. I hear some say they don't know what they would do
till the time comes. I do know what I will and will not do. I will not be pulled out of a vehicle, till my guns are empty. I will not
be the victim of looting as long as I have bullets in my guns. I
do not consider it my obligation to stop looting elsewhere but I can and will defend my property. That being said I live in Texas where property is protected by our laws. That does not
mean one can lure someone into a garage etc, but it does mean
the laws here protect the property owner, and I like our laws.

And if the worst should happen a life sentence for an old man in bad health isn't going to be all that long. I will not fail to defend my family or me, and I would rather die defending myself than life an extra few minutes while I am mauled to
death. No I am not paranoid, and I do not live in fear of attack
and I don't go where I think one is likely. And if the worst happens, I will not move whether the criminal has kinfolks or
gang members that want me. I will stay right where I live till
such time I am ready to move somewhere else and nobody is
going to run me off. When I come and go I am always armed
usually with a 44 special and a 38 special. So the last thing I am going to worry about is the legal proceedings after a shootout. I won't let someone mug me just to avoid those. And no I am not in the business of protecting property of others but I can and will protect mine.

While adultery doesn't really fit the situation where lethal force is necessary, you can use lethal force to prevent great bodily harm or death in California.

The over arching thought here should be that we don't want to use this force. Lethal force should be a last option to save a life or great bodily injury. If used in that fashion, yes, fire to protect yourself. Yes, your life will be changed, but you'll at least continue to have a life.

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Freedom isn't free.

Shoot them too.

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John

Yes, after Katrina.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Well now it won't do much good to be armed and be unwilling to use it if the situation arises, will it?

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Stay protected my friends.

There are a lot of people out there who fall under Jeff Cooper's statement to the effect of "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician".

I was at a store the other day, in line at the register. In front of me was a guy sorta kinda open carrying (gun IWB but over a tucked in shirt so the butt was open). I watched that guy for the few minutes we were standing there. Never once did he turn to look at me to acknowledge there was someone behind him. Never once did he look around to gain some situational awareness. And the entire time we were in line, until it was his turn at the register, his face was buried in his phone. He would have been as useless as a screen door on a submarine trying to stop a surprise attack.

Yup, a couple, including an A.D.A. Sometimes lawyers get a little over zealous with their titles and have to be reminded about laying their hands on people from behind in tense situations, especially LEO's.

If you let somebody murder you, you have no worries.

No plan I have ever had, have now or ever WILL have in the future involves letting somebody harm me.

My solution to the immediate and credible threat of unlawful deadly force is the sudden, unannounced, and overwhelming application of deadly force until the threat is neutralized.

I don't care who doesn't like that or why. If somebody wants to harm me because I wouldn't let somebody else, connected to them or otherwise, harm me, then they'll just get more of the same.

Nobody who would counsel me to let myself be harmed would lift a FINGER to "protect" me.

Legally? According to the Times-Picayune, 16 officers who shot shot people were prosecuted. The rest of the reported legal shootings were at people who were shooting at officers.

Looters and the Lessons of Katrina

You would have though a legal looter shooting would have made the paper. Or at least the documentary. I searched "katrina looter shot," "katrina looter killed," "citizen shoots katrina looter," and several other variations. Not a single story about someone being shot for looting.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

in my brief LEO stint, (12 mo.) i had my sidearm out of the holster 2 times. neither time did i have to use it. in all the years i have had a permit to carry, i have drawn once, and put my hand on the grip ready to draw once. once was after being threatened by some dudes white lining on the interstate and felt i had cut one of them off. the other was an aggressive panhandler who said he didn't belive me that i had no cash and wanted to find out for himself. the biker crowd split as soon as they realized after showing me he had a gun, mine was already out and aimed in his direction. the panhandeler recognized my stance and where my hand was. it changed his mind without even seeing the gun. am i proud or happy about either of those stories? no. am i happy that i had a gun with me when the need arises? yup. would/could i have used it to protect myself and my kids? without a doubt. its a dangerous world we live in and i intend to keep on living for a long time.

y e s..........

For 25 years I stood ready willing and able to protect myself and others day in and day out. Today I limit the others to my family and friends except in a very dire circumstances. If I happened to be in a convience store late at night and a team came into the store with intent to rob I'd let them, unless they try to heard me and others into a back room then I would reconsider protecting someone I didn't know.