I was at the range today. One of the drills we did involed reloads. They way the instructor wanted us to do it was take the new magazine from your pouch, bring both the gun and the magazine up into your work space, drop the magazine in the gun (while retaining it because it’s still partially loaded and you may need the ammuntion later) ,load the new magazine and put the old one in your pouch.

My magazine pouch had velcro flaps on it, the flaps made it really hard to get the magazine back into the the pouch and the third time it happened I realized that I was taking entirely too much time fighting with that magazine holder.

Long story short my magazine pouch no longer has flaps on it.

My point here is that I find my self continually reevaluting how I carry. That’s one of the reasons I go to these training classes to see what does and (more importantly ) doesn’t work in a safe environment.

I’d much rather have made that mistake today at the range than in the middle of an active shooter incident in the church in in the parking lot of Wal mart some night.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Agreed. I've bought a few gizmos thinking they were a great idea or an improvement over what I was currently carrying. After some practical range time, most were thrown in a box, or modified in some way.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

I haven't seen anything more effective than this - MagHolder.com - Fast. Comfortable. Concealed..

PS: Im not affiliated in any way to this company. Just a very satisfied customer.

You can put your partial mag in your pocket. There are mag pouches with no top. They have some other retaining system.

Right on. Everything gets tested in the manner in which it would be used before rotating into carry.

Someone on another forum pointed that out as well and I agree it makes the whole process easier but I was doing the drill as instructed.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Weapons and Accessories : KISS! (keep it simple, stupid)

It makes no sense putting a partial mag back in a pouch where you keep full mags.

What happens if you end up running your gun dry, reach for an additional reload expecting a full mag, and then get slide lock after just a couple of rounds? That would be an unpleasant surprise.

Of course if you have already run through a couple of mags, you really have a serious problem anyway.

And in doing so you found a weakness which you are in the process of correcting.

Sounds like the drill worked, at least in that aspect. Hopefully your instructor recognizes this as well.

__________________
Frosty
S&WCA # 2816

It's good to take this kind of training. I had similar training a few months back where I came to really appreciate my non-collapsible holster. Some guys in the class struggled all day with reholstering.

BTW, our instructor taught us to put partially used mags in our pockets.

Good thread and good information here too. One thing I'd add is to keep track of your equipment and how wear/use might effect it. I had an Uncle Mikes pocket holster for my 37 that worked fine for years. One day I went to pull the gun out and holster came with it too. Seems with use the holster had molded around the gun and repeated attempts found the holster staying with the gun. I replaced it with a Galco pocket holster which works quite well but will test it too on occasion.

Why would you want to eject a partially used magazine and replace it with a full magazine? Why not shoot it till empty and then reload?

It's called a tactical reload; the theory is that in a prolonged shoot where you may not be sure how many rounds you've fired and may need to fire more, swapping out the used but not empty mag for a fresh one is advised if there's a break in the action or adequate cover to perform the reload; you're "topping off" your piece and so know you've got ample rounds ready to go.

You save the partially shot mag separate of your full ones in case the chips are way down and you need literally every round you've got.

This is how I was trained many years ago. Partials go in the pocket so you know they are not full.

This is why I advocate training so much. People tell me they can't afford it. I say, how can you afford not to get it? It's during training that all this stuff comes to light.

I know training isn't cheap. However, if a $100 class will give you the skills to save your life or the life of a loved one, isn't it worth saving for?


In this case it does. I'll continue to answer this with my next comments...You've already dealt with one threat and there is a pause in the action. The first thing you do is scan the area for additional threats. Seeing no other immediate threats, you do a tactical reload. Remove the partially depleted mag and insert a fresh one. This way, should another threat emerge, you'll have a full up gun to deal with it.

There are several different schools of thought on how to do a tactical reload. What Smoke was taught is a slightly advanced method and I teach it slightly differently to those new to the concept. I'll explain that later if anyone is interested.

The reason you put the partially depleted mag back in your mag pouch is ease of access. The pouch is the fastest way to get a new mag in the gun. So, in a shooting situation, should you need those last few rounds, this is the fastest way to bring them to bear.

Obviously you wouldn't start the day with a partially loaded mag. That would be silly. But in the heat of the fight, it's nice to have quick access to more rounds even if not a full mag. Trying to dig it out of your pocket for an emergency reload (yes, that's different than a tactical reload) is a poor choice and quite difficult under stress.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Rastof has a good point about getting into a pocket. That can depend heavily on the style of pants you are wearing. Another trick for partial mags is to learn to carry full mags with the baseplate pointing one way, and returning them in the opposite direction, so you can tell by feel. I never really subscribed to that, but it is an option.

I know what it is called..........but don't understand it. If it is so effective, then why don't the military and law enforcement officers use it, or do they? I say it's like using half a fire extinguisher, then grabbing a full one to finish extinguishing the fire!

Who thought this "tactical reload" theory anyway?

BTW, anyone actually use it in shootout, or know of anyone who has?

At least two sheriff's departments I've worked with in the past train to use this scheme.

We trained to reload when the fight was over or during a "lull" when the shooting was over for the moment. We never trained to do anything like that under fire, we'd shoot to lock back and then reload and shoot some more. That's one of the reasons I tell people to carry a reload, what are you going to do with an empty gun when the fights over, IF the fights over.


No idea who though it up.


My son has done this in firefights - shoot, fights over, reload before moving out again.

__________________
Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Military and LEO do train and use it.

An accurate fire extinguisher analogy would be using a fire extinguisher until the fire in front of you appears out, but given the likelihood of other fires imminently encountered, switching to a full fire extinguisher while you have a safe chance to in case you need more than whatever unknown quantity -- possibly not enough -- is in the original.

It isn't a theory, it's a tactic -- one of many. No single tactic is for everyone and clearly you're skeptical; by all means stick to your comfort zone.

I think a couple of people are missing the whole point of the drill. You don’t do this while the bad guy is breathing down your neck

The Tac reload would be done after the fight appears to be over. You’ve engaged that bad guy, he’s down but you don’t know if he was alone and you don’t know exactly how many rounds you’ve expended.

So you take a second and load a full magazine into the weapon but you keep the partial because you might need it.


During the New Life Church Shooting ( which is exactly the kind of scenario they're training us for) the church security volunteer expended her entire magazine before she stopped the shooter and he was able to take his own life which means he could have just as easily shot her while she was sitting there with an empty gun

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

If you shoot till slide lock and then reload circumstances decide when you reload and they just might decide at the worst possible moment.

On a Tac reload you decide when you reload usually when you are behind cover and when you have a second or two

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Let me give you another example.
Before I started doing this training I set up my belt with my Gerber multi tool first and then my magazine pouch behind it. My reasoning was that I used my multi tool everyday and my magazines not so much. I figure if I ever need to reload my weapon I’d reach past the multitool and grab a magazine. After all I carried the same way every single time so I knew what was where.

Very first training class we practice reloads. Nothing fancy just take one magazine out, put a new one in except I grabbed that damned multi tool instead of a magazine Every. Single. Time. . From that day forward I put that multi tool behind every thing else because the consequences of reaching for it and coming up with a magazine were far less that reaching for a magazine and coming up with it.

Now imagine if I learned the lesson standing in the hall way at my church with a nursery full of screaming kids behind me and some maniac with a gun in front of me instead of on the range during training

By all means

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I've always taught it as a, "Magazine Exchange" and yes LEO & MIL teach it for all the reasons already stated.

In my circles a tac reload is when there are no rds in your mag but one still chambered. A reload at that point, means letting the mag hit the ground and inserting another one (preferably full).

An emergency reload is when your mag is empty and the slide is locked back.

We teach to put a partially loaded mag in your support side pocket or IWB by @your belly button (midline), so if you need too, you can get to it with either hand.

Smoke: love reading your posts and training. Be safe.

I can't condemn others for doing so but I will not perform a tactical reload unless I'm behind cover and/or concealment.

A tactical reload is done because the fight isn't over or the possibility exists that more bad guys are present. With that in mind, I simply won't do it. Shoot to lock back and reload then.

One more reason why I carry a BUG.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that one...

The "New York reload"

Generally faster than the others depending on placement.

Seems to me, if your not military or a LEO you have little to no use for "tactical reloads". Proof is in the stats. Shots fired in a violent encounter by a CCW holder vs. an attacker = on average 3. Time involved = less that one minute. Should you carry a reload or 2? Sure, if you want. Do you need a reload? Probably not... but it is you decision. I keep one with me but doubt in my life time I will ever use it for a running gun battle.

I agree. However, recently, there have been many attacks performed by multiple attackers.

Probably never happen to me either. And I'm not old yet but I'm getting there. To old to fight more than one person and I can't run like I used to. But my trigger finger still works good!

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Sure, but if you train exclusively to the averages you're in the hurt if you find yourself at one of the ends of the bell curve.

Nothing wrong with increasing proficiencies, concentrating on likely scenarios while devoting some time to less likely ones.

Besides, if we were making decisions based on statistical averages, virtually all of use would have to stop carrying altogether.

They aren't training me to be a concealed carrier they're training me to deal with this

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I can’t find an image of this anywhere on the internet but the targets were the same size as a standard silhouette target but they had 6 images ( 2 squares, 2 circles and two triangles randomly mixed) in 3 colors ( red, yellow , blue) numbered 1 through 6.

They set up 4 targets and put 5 buckets in a line parallel to the targets and had us walk one at a time) up and down the line weaving in and out of the buckets .

At random intervals the coach would call out different combinations such as Red Triangle 6 and when he did we’d have to turn to face the targets, draw, identify which of the 24 (total) images was a red triangle with a 6 in it and put two rounds through that target only.

Some times he’d yell blue square and you’d have to find an blue square (sometimes more than one and engage it) and sometimes he’d yell yellow 6 and you’d have to put two through anything yellow with a 6 on it.

Once he called orange just to see what the guy would do (there were no orange targets)

The idea was to stop and think and really look at your target and identify it before shooting

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

OK, but before I go into an exhaustive explanation of the different kinds of reloads, I need to know if you know something already:

Do you know what I mean by "indexing a magazine"?

Didn't they teach you this in the Army? They teach it in the Air Force and Army Rangers.

You may not realize it, but they are. While their specific landscape is a church environment, you are carrying concealed and you are defending yourself and those around you from an active shooter. Everything you're learning in that class is preparing you for concealed carry outside of the church.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Something like this?


Here's another that's a good tool:

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Yes

That's it exactly

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Smoke....... my guess is that in a couple of months you will again be grabbing the multi-tool....... as you stated that's what you reach for multiple times a day.........so without thinking that's where your hand will go. I'd try to find a place to carry the M-T where you grab it with your gun hand...... maybe a Safariland horizontal belt pouch just to the left(?) of your belt buckle.... with your vertical mag pouch(s) behind it .

Tactical reloads are IMHO only done when the shooting is over; or you have space and are behind cover.........if your are still threatened and you have ammo in your weapon....... you should be shooting.... and if not behind cover........ moving!!!!!

Shooting IDPA or USPSA the easiest place I found to stick the partial magazine in a tactical reload is in my left rear jeans pocket....next to my wallet..... there's kind of an open pocket to stick it in........ but still handy to my left hand.

One issue I've always found with IDPA and USPSA is the "game" turns it into a "foot race" (after the walk through and shooters predetermining how they will attack the course)....... not a tactical response.....

Fair observations all, but why not check the condescension and discouragement at the door?

We're here to learn, share and support. OP has guts to lay out what he's discovering about holes in his game, and taking the right training steps to correct them. That's a good example for all.

Neither you, I or anybody else here is any better, just (perhaps) at different points on the "trying to get it right" spectrum.

I'm not sure where you get that "stat". There's only one authenticated civilian data base on armed encounters by civilians and it hasn't reached significant numbers yet and is limited to one US city. FWIW, average range was 5 yards (closest 3 yards), no round counts published at this time.

The authenticated sources tend to be LE stats and there the average shooting is 3.5-4.7 rounds per bad person. If there are bullets flying in both directions you're looking in the 6.2-8.? per bad person. The averages change a bit from year to year, hence the spread.

I never called it a tactical reload but we always trained to load a fresh mag when the fight was over, doesn't matter if you'd only shot one round or only had one round left in your gun. Before you move on to whatever the next thing is that you're doing whether it's calling 911 or clearing the next mud hut, you need a fully loaded gun.

__________________
Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Astute observation.

I've had my fair share of watching someone pull a folding knife, multi-tool or mini flashlight from their belt, instead of a replacement magazine, during quals.

Seeing the expression on the face of someone who goes into extended "puzzlement mode" when they can't figure out why the knife or light isn't fitting in the pistol mag well is ... interesting. Some obviously can't believe they'd grabbed the wrong thing (and that's just under the minimal stress of an expected course-of-fire, where nobody is actually shooting at them).

It's usually easier to get someone to listen to advice about setting up their equipment belt, (versus the gun belts of yesteryear) after they've experienced a mixup in trying to locate & access their replacement magazines during some qual scenario.

Usually, but not always.

Some still don't want to listen to advice or make changes.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I do these classes approximately once a quarter. I switched out my MT a year ago and haven't made that mistake since

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

You get more training than a lot of LEOs do.

Be safe.

Grabbing the wrong tool is an individual problem, but a problem none the less. Others may or may not do it, but this will only be seen once some stress has entered the equation. This is why I like to use a timer when I train/practice.

OK, I promised that I would demonstrate another method of tactical reload. I will do that shortly, but I need to take some pictures first. I also think I'll start another thread specifically for that purpose. So, keep a watch here and I'll post a link to it once accomplished.

EDIT: This will take a little longer than expected. I have to charge the camera battery first.

EDIT 2: Here's the thread I made on the subject: Different kinds of loads/reloads

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

My church takes this security thing very seriously. The person who started every thing was a CSPD retiree who's last call was the New Life Church shooting.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I'd have double tapped red and yellow and called it good . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I used to carry with a mag pouch with flaps, but after shooting exactly one USPSA match with that setup and my 3913, I switched to one of these and never looked back:

DMC DOUBLE MAG CARRIER: Holsters & Ammo Carriers: Ammunition Carriers at Galco

It is considerably faster to reload from, yet very secure, and the tension is adjustable. I would like to get one of those for the 5906 as well. I currently use one of these with the 5906:

http://www.fobusholster.com/products...K-1856-66.html

but I prefer the Galco, as the Fobus one I have isn't adjustable for tension and is a little on the grabby side.

Don't you get blind stages? We get them regularly where I compete. No one sees what the course is until you are on it. Basically they all start by opening a door in a wall and engaging targets. Very good practice, I learn more on those stages every time we get one.

She definitely got lucky. She had no real cover. Those walls can be shot through by what he had.

While we aren't exclusively taught a tac reload, we are taught it during our quarterly range time. A good scenario to think about for these- you shoot down your attacker, the fight is over. Then a couple of his friends come out of the woodwork, see what you did, and get ticked. The theory is that if you do the tac reload once the primary threat is down, you are better equipped to deal with the secondary, or tertiary threat with a full gun rather than the 3 or 4 rounds you may have left from your primary magazine.

I've been away from it for a few years.....Kids and travel time!

And I got tired of being told I "needed/had to" get a Glock! LOL, that my DA/SA PC Smiths or Beretta Elite II weren't good enough to be competitive. Frankly I went to IDPA to practice and learn not run cross country!!!

But no; no "blind stages" ...."safety" walk through on every stage......after which shooting buddies would discuss "strategy"...... not a totally bad thing..... but IMHO something to do after shooting an IDPA stage.... what you did right, what you did wrong, what you would do different.

My "gripe" was many were almost doing IDPA run and gun!!!!!!! All that mattered was how fast you finished......

Good thread..know your gear, where it is placed, and how to use it. I had a colleague who got in a shooting and had to do an emergency reload...he grabbed his pager and was trying to stuff that in the mag well! He realized after about three attempts and finally got to the magazine on his hip. He was lucky in that he had a stout tree for cover as 10mm rounds were being slung at him. He finished the fight.

I was running some TFO's through a time/stress drill and one of them yanked his magazine so hard that the entire mag pouch/cuff case came right off his belt. Watching him trying to insert that into his empty sidearm was a learning point for all. He threw that rig away while still at the range and bought gear that slides through the belt, rather than clips on it.

__________________
No good deed goes unpunished.

Interesting and slightly off topic point but I posted this thread exactly on another forum.

They are up to 3 pages (75+ posts) of (mostly) why does a civilian need to do a tac reload/ your instructor is an idiot/ no one teaches that ( I showed a video of a PD teaching exactly that and got told the person never said no one teaches that) and you're doing it wrong.

This truly is one of the most civil forums on the internet

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard