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01-03-2015, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ou1954
I used to have some .22 LR that had small shot in a plastic "bullet". Never fired them and they are long lost during a move. I had rifles then and though the shot shells would pretty much discourage someone. I sold the rifles after moving here and have settled on an SD9VE but often wonder whether those shot-filled .22's would actuate a pistol or whether they would deter someone.
Anyone have a thought or experience with the .22 shot shells?
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I used some of those as a kid. I think they would be painful, but no way they will stop a determined attack -- unless you were attacked by an hamster.
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01-03-2015, 05:33 PM
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Shoot .22lr into the vitals and they're dead.
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01-03-2015, 05:34 PM
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Jim Cirillo (NYPD) talks of repeatedly shooting someone with a 38 load and watching him getting closer and closer as he sees the reflection of the blasts in the attacker's eyes wondering "when is this guy going to go down?" That being said, there is no guaranteed one shot stop round, that includes 00 buck. However if the need arises I would want the most significant round I can carry.
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01-03-2015, 05:56 PM
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Physics.. Dirty Harry movies aside... if a round will knock an assailant down it will knock the shooter down....... " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"............. the two options is to shut down an assailant's neuro system or a shot that will bleed him/her out....... quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..
A .22 or .380 will kill......... but neither will knock an assailant down.......
OK if you shatter the pelvic girdle.... knee or spinal column..................
all that aside there are a lot of variables in how a person will react to being shot......................................
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01-03-2015, 07:22 PM
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For me the 380 that I owned. I didn't group with it to my liking. And it wasn't all that comfortable to shoot.
Currently using compact 9mm or S&W 442 for bug/pocket gun.
I have shot the Glock 42 a couple times and grouped pretty good with it. I wouldn't have a problem carrying one.
My only gripe with the 380 is....that for a while it was impossible to find 380 ammo. I seen shops selling 380's and not have any ammo for the gun. Hopefully them times are over.
Bottom line is...shoot what works best for you!!
Last edited by Pawatch; 01-04-2015 at 12:38 AM.
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01-03-2015, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM
Physics.. Dirty Harry movies aside... if a round will knock an assailant down it will knock the shooter down....... " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"............. the two options is to shut down an assailant's neuro system or a shot that will bleed him/her out....... quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..
A .22 or .380 will kill......... but neither will knock an assailant down.......
OK if you shatter the pelvic girdle.... knee or spinal column..................
all that aside there are a lot of variables in how a person will react to being shot......................................
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Force=Mass x Acceleration every action does have an equal and opposite reaction but the opposite reaction is the recoil of the gun which is reduced by the gun's weight and springs if present.
A punch will knock someone down but the opposing force is minimal compared to the acceleration of the fist and what it's punching. Punch a wall and you'll get the full opposing force.
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01-03-2015, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyflake
I carry a Sig P238 (.380) - daily 24/7 - with a 7 round mag & 1 in the tube, cocked and locked, in a front pocket holster. I also carry two spare mags in my cell phone pouch.
This is the ammo I carry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b3ZGmZuT0
At face to face distances, I have no concerns!
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Me too. Fired 20 rds through my P238, chronographed 1079 fps, SD = 8. Awesome!
All 10 rds had dents near or on the case mouth after ejection. I think I need a heavier buffer spring. No failures of any kind though. All my carry magazines are loaded with these now.
That's near 9 mm velocity, but a 9mm wasn't available in such an easy to carry package at the time I bought it. Now I could buy a P938 and have a 9mm in virtually the same package. Still might do that.
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01-04-2015, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ameridaddy
Me too. Fired 20 rds through my P238, chronographed 1079 fps, SD = 8. Awesome!
All 10 rds had dents near or on the case mouth after ejection. I think I need a heavier buffer spring. No failures of any kind though. All my carry magazines are loaded with these now.
That's near 9 mm velocity, but a 9mm wasn't available in such an easy to carry package at the time I bought it. Now I could buy a P938 and have a 9mm in virtually the same package. Still might do that.
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I understand the .380+P is not approved for most .380's because there is no SAAMI standard. However the S&W Bodyguard I understand has got the all clear from S&W.
I highly recommend the P938 whether you have a .380 or not.
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01-04-2015, 08:18 PM
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.380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF
I understand the .380+P is not approved for most .380's because there is no SAAMI standard. However the S&W Bodyguard I understand has got the all clear from S&W.
I highly recommend the P938 whether you have a .380 or not.
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I shoot Buffalo Bore +P in my PPK all the time. Not even the hint of a problem.
Bob
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01-04-2015, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager28
I shoot Buffalo Bore +P in my PPK all the time. Not even the hint of a problem.
Bob
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This is what the PPK manual says:
WARNING: DEATH, SERIOUS INJURY AND DAMAGE
CAN RESULT FROM THE USE OF INCORRECT
AMMUNITION OR BORE OBSTRUCTIONS. NEVER
USE RELOADS OF ANY KIND.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety.
Use of “Plus-P” ammunition may result in the need for more
frequent service.
“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that
it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and, therefore, such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated
and could be DANGEROUS.
Most pistols will shoot +P but I wouldn't recommend that you use it all the time, but it's your decision.
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01-04-2015, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF
This is what the PPK manual says:
WARNING: DEATH, SERIOUS INJURY AND DAMAGE
CAN RESULT FROM THE USE OF INCORRECT
AMMUNITION OR BORE OBSTRUCTIONS. NEVER
USE RELOADS OF ANY KIND.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety.
Use of “Plus-P” ammunition may result in the need for more
frequent service.
“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that
it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and, therefore, such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated
and could be DANGEROUS.
Most pistols will shoot +P but I wouldn't recommend that you use it all the time, but it's your decision.
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Depends on what "all the time" means, don't you think? If you shoot , oh, 200-300 rounds a year through it and you only shoot +P, that's "all the time".
It's "my decision"? Imagine my releif.
Bob
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01-04-2015, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager28
Depends on what "all the time" means, don't you think? If you shoot , oh, 200-300 rounds a year through it and you only shoot +P, that's "all the time".
It's "my decision"? Imagine my releif.
Bob
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Seems like you have "issues" Bob. Good luck with them.
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01-04-2015, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM
Physics.. Dirty Harry movies aside... if a round will knock an assailant down it will knock the shooter down....... " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"............. the two options is to shut down an assailant's neuro system or a shot that will bleed him/her out....... quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..
A .22 or .380 will kill......... but neither will knock an assailant down.......
OK if you shatter the pelvic girdle.... knee or spinal column..................
all that aside there are a lot of variables in how a person will react to being shot......................................
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Remember that one has to actually hit the person to knock them down. Or be able to conduct follow up shots. A bomb will do no one good if it hits the wrong area. A grenade launcher will do no good if shrapnel hits the target and you require a long reload time. They do go big booms, but booms don't matter if it doesn't hit the spot.
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01-04-2015, 10:39 PM
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Why do I carry a 45acp? Because I haven't found a legal way to conceal a 12ga.
As for the 380, I sure don't want to get shot with one.
Seriously, 90% of the time these days, I'm carrying my Shield 9mm.
I have a Commander size 1911 (Kimber 4") that I used to carry in the winter and a Model 60 I carried in the summer. Now, the Shield fills the bill most of the time. I carry the 60 and the 1911 from time to time just because I like them but that little Shield is a dandy pistol.
Jeff
Last edited by jeffnles1; 01-04-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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01-04-2015, 10:51 PM
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Knock off the bickering
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01-05-2015, 04:16 PM
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There have been so many recent .380 ACP thread topics that I've not been able to keep track of which ones I've read or in which I've posted comments.
Probably because it's been the fastest growing caliber for sales in the commercial market in the last couple of years, maybe? (According to what we were told in my last Glock armorer recert last year, accompanying the release of the G42. )
Some random thoughts on .380's ...
I picked up a LCP a couple years ago. Why? Because I'd seen and heard of them doing well in different LE shooter hands. It was marginally smaller than the Bodyguard, and it was easier to conceal in a lot of tighter/shorter jeans pockets which couldn't conceal my J-frames. Up until then, I'd not owned one for something like 25+ years (Beretta M84).
Is the .380 ACP up to the same ballistic performance levels of the standard 9mm? Of course not. Is it equal to the .38 Spl? Probably not, at least when it comes to the .38 Spl being able to fire heavier bullet weights.
Has it still shown it can save the lives of LE when used as a secondary/backup & off-duty weapon? Well, according to the LEOKA (law enforcement officers killed & assaulted) class and a street tactics/ofc survival class I took a couple years ago ... yes, it's been working in that regard.
Personally, I think that once you choose a quality example from among the growing breed of really diminutive .380's ... and confirm your example is reliable with the ammo you use ... it really comes down to how well you can use the little .380, meaning consistently accurately and effectively.
Allowed to choose your own ammunition? Fine. Do your research and make your own informed opinion. Focus on maintaining the little gun properly, and honing your skillset so you can fight with the little gun under stress and difficult conditions.
Restricted to using ammo selected by someone else (policy, etc)? Fine. Focus on maintaining the little gun properly, and honing your skillset so you can fight with the little gun under stress and difficult conditions.
It's a .380 ACP. It is what it is. It's not a 9mm or a .38 Spl (or anything else that's larger, more powerful or fires a heavier bullet).
You see some folks shot and either killed or paralyzed with the .380 caliber, you hopefully realize it's not some leisurely hypothetical "ballistic performance" debate without potential consequences when rounds are fired in the real world.
I often tell some of the folks I help on training & qual ranges that it's less about the particular caliber & ammo, and more about them being able to effectively use it, that really matters when the rubber meets the road.
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01-06-2015, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ou1954
I used to have some .22 LR that had small shot in a plastic "bullet". Never fired them and they are long lost during a move. I had rifles then and though the shot shells would pretty much discourage someone. I sold the rifles after moving here and have settled on an SD9VE but often wonder whether those shot-filled .22's would actuate a pistol or whether they would deter someone.
Anyone have a thought or experience with the .22 shot shells?
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Great for snakes and varmints!
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01-07-2015, 12:01 AM
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As for the .22 shot shells for defense? No....Just, no...some people buy one of those NAA .22 Magnum or LR mini revolcers and load them with shot shells thinking they've got a Mini Judge but it's far from the case. These barely hurt birds at close range.
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01-07-2015, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman86
As for the .22 shot shells for defense? No....Just, no...some people buy one of those NAA .22 Magnum or LR mini revolcers and load them with shot shells thinking they've got a Mini Judge but it's far from the case. These barely hurt birds at close range.
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I guaranty you've never actually tested this. .22 for defense with right shot placement will do just fine.
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01-07-2015, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCow
I guaranty you've never actually tested this. .22 for defense with right shot placement will do just fine.
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I think standtheman was talking about the 22 shot shells. These are 22LR sized cartridges loaded with very small pellets like a mini-shotgun.
When I was a kid we call these "Bird shot" -- and shooting birds was about what they were good for.
I used to shoot tin cans with them for target practice and many times they would dent the can and not even penetrate. (Well, 50 years ago cans were stronger than today).
I suspect that if the person were wearing a heavy jacket the bird shot might not even get through to his skin.
If you hit him on bare skin I expect the pellets would penetrate an inch or so and hurt like heck, but not stop -- probably make the BG royally po-ed at you.
Standard 22LR single bullet ammo is a whole other story, as you said.
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01-07-2015, 10:10 AM
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Oh. Understandable then. I don't know why people would use those shells for self defense then?? Which I guess he doesn't either.
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01-07-2015, 10:28 AM
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Modern .22 airguns are very powerful. They can kill. They are a lot more powerful than .22 shotgun cartridges.
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01-07-2015, 11:15 PM
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I carry both .22 LR and Short mini revolvers, loaded with .22 LR Velocitors or Stingers it's a decent micro fistful of power. The Short isn't bad either with CCI .22 Short Varmint loads, it's comparable to standard velocity .22 LR in power.
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01-07-2015, 11:18 PM
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This is the effects of Winchester .22 LR shot shells on paper
Not very formidable some of the pellets didn't make it through the cardboard backing.
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01-08-2015, 09:05 AM
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How far away did you shoot?
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01-08-2015, 10:50 PM
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Maybe 3 yards, and the Winchester bird shot .22's are more powerful than the CCI.
This pic is point blank, more damage from powder burns than anything else.
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01-09-2015, 11:56 PM
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Can't quite remember last time I shot my .22 lr. I do have my pistol, if I remember and I do go to the range tomorrow I'll have to see. I remember mine pentetrating well. Maybe it's in how hard you pull the trigger!
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01-10-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlight
i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
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That was a joke, right?
The .380 can be a good defensive round depending on the pistol...A lot of the older .380 small guns are not reliable with hollow points, which, IMO, and mandatory with the .380. The ball ammo in that caliber has a rep for overpenetration and ricochet neither a desirable trait. The only .380 I carry occasionally is very good with Remington JHP's, and that's what is in there...but for a small pistol, I really prefer the .32 ACP with ball ammo.
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01-10-2015, 02:19 PM
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A head shot might not always be lethal but it will almost always make a person limp.
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01-10-2015, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogngun
That was a joke, right?
The .380 can be a good defensive round depending on the pistol...A lot of the older .380 small guns are not reliable with hollow points, which, IMO, and mandatory with the .380. The ball ammo in that caliber has a rep for overpenetration and ricochet neither a desirable trait. The only .380 I carry occasionally is very good with Remington JHP's, and that's what is in there...but for a small pistol, I really prefer the .32 ACP with ball ammo.
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Won't ball ammo overpenetrate and ricochet from a .32acp, just as from a .380acp?
I carry Critical Defense in my .380 carry gun. It had the deepest penetration (11 1/4") of all the rounds I saw tested (Gold Dot, Winchester PDX1, Federal Hydra shock, and Remington Golden Sabre). Golden Sabre clogged, failed to expand, and essentially became a fmj.
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01-10-2015, 03:24 PM
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Does one need 11 1/4" penetration? I'm pretty sure I'm smaller in thickness than that. You only need 5 to 6 inches to hit vitals.
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01-10-2015, 05:43 PM
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With small caliber rounds, such as the .380, any possible expansion, that may occur, will be negligible. I don't care about expansion, I care about penetration. Get in deep, hopefully, through & through. That way you have two bleed holes and anything in between, vitals, etc. will have been penetrated as well.
I carry Buffalo Bore +P 105gn hard cast .380 Sig. Gel test show it penetrating from 26 inches to 31 inches, depending on which test you can find.
When your in a heads up, kill or be killed, situation are you really going to worry about where your bullet goes, if it penetrates your enemy?
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01-10-2015, 05:59 PM
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When your in a heads up, kill or be killed, situation are you really going to worry about where your bullet goes, if it penetrates your enemy?
I would care!
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01-10-2015, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler
When your in a heads up, kill or be killed, situation are you really going to worry about where your bullet goes, if it penetrates your enemy?
I would care!
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Well, you shouldn't worry too much. With a .380 most of the energy will have been dumped in your target. It won't have much effect after that. Just my thoughts!
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01-10-2015, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyflake
When your in a heads up, kill or be killed, situation are you really going to worry about where your bullet goes, if it penetrates your enemy?
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On a scale of issues to consider, I think it rates pretty low.
The bullet that most often fails to penetrate the bad guy is the one that misses. That's an issue worthy of consideration and practice.
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01-10-2015, 07:44 PM
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simple rules:
Know you target
Know what is behind it
Know the performance qualities of what you are shooting.
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01-11-2015, 11:23 AM
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Sometimes these discussion remind me of some fellow motorcycle riders that I know, who are always looking at the next gizmo to add to their bike. Like a golfer who never stops buying new golf items, the biker loves his bike and buying new gadgets keeps him connected to his love when he can't actually be out riding. So we gun lovers, who probably can't get to the range as much as we would like, and almost never have a need to actually use a gun for self defense or anything else, spend our time connected to guns by our time on the internet or by buying and trying various calibers, types ammo, brands and types of guns, etc, etc. Most of us certainly do not NEED a large number or type of handguns, but we like to be doing things with and about guns, so its fun thinking about and arguing about whether the 380 is a good self defense caliber, or whether a revolver beats a semi, or a shoulder holster beats an IWB, etc.
I'll just add my own two cents to the OP's question. I prefer 9mm or 38 Special +p for self defense, but there are times that for carrying comfort I want something really small and easy to conceal. That's when I take my Ruger LCP loaded with 380 Hornady Personal Defense ammo and I feel very comfortable with the choice. And since I have yet to ever need the gun that I am carrying, everything that I have carried has done the job so far!
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01-11-2015, 12:07 PM
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The way I see it I'm carrying for personal protection, not to fight a war or a major crime wave. Depending on what I'm doing and if the thing that fits the bill is a 380 or namely my LCP that's what it's going to be. I realize it's not a .357, .40 or .44. The most important thing to me is that as with my other carry pieces I have practiced with it and I'm pretty sure I can put a bullet where it needs to be. I know how the weapon works and I know it's been cared for and should not fail me.
If it gets me out of the jam I'm in so be it, I tried with what I had and it was better than having nothing.
Hopefully I will never have to find out
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01-11-2015, 02:44 PM
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A "GOOD" defensive caliber, by my definition, is anything that stops a threat.
If .380 were NOT good in this regard there would be no examples of it having done so. Since there are in fact many such examples, I say - case closed!
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Stay protected my friends.
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01-18-2015, 07:21 PM
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01-18-2015, 07:31 PM
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I shot my new LCP on Friday with Remington Hollow Points. If you are on the receiving end of that you have got some serious problems and I like my chances.
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01-19-2015, 12:46 AM
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Here is one that you definitely can not count on!
Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.
All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
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01-19-2015, 03:19 AM
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To answer your question, like a few others have said. Ask your misinformed friend if he would like to take a round of .380. Truth is ANY well placed round of any caliber is going to take down an attacker. It comes down to your personal preference. If we are talking a military battlefield then sure that's an entirely different conversation. But I don't know anyone who is willing to take a round of any kind. Any round can be a deadly round.
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01-19-2015, 08:27 AM
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What they said.
Some folks think a .44 Magnum isn't enough gun, using the "what if" logic. I am kind of surprised that by now, there aren't endless debates on wether or not an AR pistol in 5.56 with a couple of extra 30 rounders is enough gun or not.
The .380 was/is the sidearm caliber many police agencies around the globe are issued for daily carry. A lot of bad guys are in the dirt because of the .380s lack of effectiveness. Practice and familiarity are what it's all about.
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Geoff. Since 1960.
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01-19-2015, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler
Here is one that you definitely can not count on!
Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.
All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
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Can you tell us this story more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadshot
To answer your question, like a few others have said. Ask your misinformed friend if he would like to take a round of .380. Truth is ANY well placed round of any caliber is going to take down an attacker. It comes down to your personal preference. If we are talking a military battlefield then sure that's an entirely different conversation. But I don't know anyone who is willing to take a round of any kind. Any round can be a deadly round.
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Battlefield choice is 9mm. The only people complaining are the ones who shoot poorly. It wont get any better with a .45 if they cant hit the target
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01-19-2015, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlight
You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.
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What I have seen on these posts is there is a lot of redundant question such as whats my gun worth and stopping power or should or shouldn't I.
Don't be discouraged about asking, generally there are some very knowledgeable people who are willing to share their knowledge and there are also some who get their shorts in a bunch. good luck with your information search..
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01-19-2015, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler View Post
Here is one that you definitely can not count on!
Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.
All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
Can you tell us this story more?
Menopause time - my woman was seeing a Doc who put her on some hormone that really set her into left field. She was screaming and hollering through some wild excursion into insanity. I put on my hat and coat to leave the house, she resented my action and shot me from behind, center of my back just below my collar.
It was her pistol, she had loaded it - apparently thinking a blank was good for the first cartridge. I was lucky!!
We discussed why it was not nice to shoot me. She did not try it again.
I removed the firing pin from her revolver.
There are those who feel a blank is good as a warning shot - I do not feel that it is a good idea.
Last edited by Ed Fowler; 01-19-2015 at 12:27 PM.
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01-19-2015, 02:46 PM
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I personally carry a 380 almost daily. I carry the Shield 9 when I can. I feel very comfortable with my 380 but only because I researched the heck out of my carry round. I would suggest you do the same as I do not feel that all JHP ammo for 380 is created equal. There are a lot of rounds that will not expand due to lack of velocity from shorter barrels. This is due to the fact the engineers designed the rounds for longer barrels (3.5 inches or greater). Shooting from a 2.75 inch barrel can lower the velocities just enough to eliminate the chance of the round expanding. Do your homework!!!
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01-19-2015, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Fowler View Post
Here is one that you definitely can not count on!
Many years ago I got shot in the back with a 22 cal blank at close range.
Burned some holes in my coat and was very loud.
All it did was aggravate me greatly!!!
Can you tell us this story more?
Menopause time - my woman was seeing a Doc who put her on some hormone that really set her into left field. She was screaming and hollering through some wild excursion into insanity. I put on my hat and coat to leave the house, she resented my action and shot me from behind, center of my back just below my collar.
It was her pistol, she had loaded it - apparently thinking a blank was good for the first cartridge. I was lucky!!
We discussed why it was not nice to shoot me. She did not try it again.
I removed the firing pin from her revolver.
There are those who feel a blank is good as a warning shot - I do not feel that it is a good idea.
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Sounds like madness. Wow. Anyways not quite sure shooting a blank at someone would be acceptable, also dont think removing the firing pin is good either, what if she needs it?
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01-19-2015, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlight
I've looked a few YouTube videos on .380 ballistic tests. The conclusion of a couple of these tests is that it would be far more effective for defense purposes to use a 'ball' round rather than a hollow point, because the 'ball' penetrates twice as far. Would you agree with this?
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I completely DISAGREE with this statement. You need to do more homework. There are some ****** JHP rounds for short barrel 380s and very few good ones. However, the good ones pretty much meet the FBI protocol for penetration (12-18 inches) and actually expand decently as well, even with 4 layers of denim. If you do enough internet research you will find the good ones.
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