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Old 01-01-2015, 02:23 AM
Capt.Jim Capt.Jim is offline
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Default 2 yr old shooting mom with her CC weapon?

How in the world a 2 yr old toddler was able to grab her mom's gun from her purse, pulled it out, get a firm grip and was able to squeeze the trigger?

Oh well, now get ready to hear the screams from the anti-gun crowd!
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:27 AM
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The kid probably didn't have any kind of grip. Probably didn't even get it out of the purse. It was a major fail on the part of the mother.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
The kid probably didn't have any kind of grip. Probably didn't even get it out of the purse. It was a major fail on the part of the mother.
I think we all agree on the "major fail" part of the mom!
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Old 01-01-2015, 04:14 AM
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I am sure I do not know the facts well enough to comment, but the little I heard on the news certainly sounds like a failure on the part of the adult to properly stow the weapon in a purse designed specifically for a weapon. That said, I tend not to trust news reports about these sorts of things as so often reporting about gun matters leaves out details critical for a proper evaluation.

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 01-01-2015 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:18 AM
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The same report everyone got has circulated throughout the gun community. The antis have it, too - but it's not exactly the most useful, sad story for them. Horrible accidents are tricky to make hay out of - but we'll see.

Simple story. 2 year old reached into mom's purse, found the gun, found the trigger, pulled it, end of story. Nobody ever said the child took it from the purse, got a firm grip on it, etc. Any 2 year old can fire a gun if he or she gets his or her finger onto a trigger.

For the record, here are two paragraphs from the VERY SAME ARTICLE:

(C) USA Today 2014
Toddler reaches into purse and gun goes off, killing mom

Quote:
An Idaho nuclear research scientist who had taken her young relatives to Walmart to spend their holiday gift cards was killed Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded pistol from her purse and shot her.

Quote:
Rutledge had a concealed weapons permit. Miller said the young boy was left in a shopping cart, reached into his mother's purse and grabbed a small-caliber handgun, which discharged once.
Did he or did he not remove the gun from her purse? Clearly, he didn't have to, but when an Associated Press report has two different versions in the same story it's pretty hard to tell!

It's told here in a different way:

The inside story of how an Idaho toddler shot his mom at Wal-Mart - The Washington Post

Bottom line - it doesn't matter how much you know about guns, how much experience you have, or how smart you are (the lady was a nuclear scientist!), you NEVER lose track of your handgun. We need to add that to the list of "rules".

NEVER, DO NOT EVER, lose track of where your gun is.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:24 AM
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Default People GOTTA....

People GOTTA learn about their guns and be responsible for them. It's like babies. It's easy to have a baby or buy a gun, but that's just the start of a lifetime of responsibility.
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:14 AM
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Just to add, from an update I read this morning:

The weapon was a 9mm semi. The lady and her husband both had CCW licenses and went to the range regularly. The purse had a zippered pocket designed for CCW and was a Christmas gift from her husband. The child was able to unzip the pocket and fire the 9mm, striking the woman in the head. The child was riding in the shopping cart while the woman shopped in the electronics section of the WM.

I'm sure she felt she knew exactly where the pistol was, and wouldn't have thought she had lost track of it; in reality, it obviously wasn't under her immediate and close supervision, and the result is tragic to say the least.
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:20 AM
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And before the kid pulled the trigger,the safety was flipped off too?
I'd venture to say that the gun was in fire mode,which should never be the case with loaded automatic,not in your hand.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
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And before the kid pulled the trigger,the safety was flipped off too?
I'd venture to say that the gun was in fire mode,which should never be the case with loaded automatic,not in your hand.
Camster not all semi's have a safety some are double action that all you need to do is pull the trigger.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:29 AM
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that things there is more to this story.
I'm not saying it's impossible, it just seems like there are some details missing.
I started my boy shooting a .22 revolver at 8 or 9 and he had a difficult time just trying to cock the hammer.
IMO most stock compact carry guns I have shot have triggers almost as hard to pull as a DA revolver.
There is defiantly something not quite right about this.
I would never let my child out of my sight, or my firearm and most certainly not both together.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:44 AM
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PD's saying S&W Shield. It has a safety; assume it was off.

There's already a couple merged threads running on this sad incident in The Lounge.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:01 AM
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I see ladies leaving their purses in the shopping cart all the time at Walmart. I don't understand why someone would ever turn their back and walk away from their purse. That is beyond me. And I am assuming the ones I see do not have guns in them, just a real good way to loose a purse.

I have never been a fan of ladies carrying in a purse, even a dedicated one. A purse can easily be snatched away and it is almost impossible to NEVER be apart from it. Not everyone is as careless as the ladies I see at Walmart, but seriously, can they ALWAYS have it in their possession?
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth View Post
PD's saying S&W Shield. It has a safety; assume it was off.

There's already a couple merged threads running on this sad incident in The Lounge.

Oh really? You're sure about that?

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Old 01-01-2015, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post
And before the kid pulled the trigger,the safety was flipped off too?
I'd venture to say that the gun was in fire mode,which should never be the case with loaded automatic,not in your hand.
Not sure I understand what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are telling everyone to always have their safety on. I carry my Shield in an OWB holster and flip the safety off after holstering. I always carry in "fire mode", as do quite a few here. You can now purchase a Shield without a safety.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:12 AM
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Default False Security

As the senior firearms instructor and weapons custodian for the NY office of a federal law enforcement agency, I can attest to the fact that we lost a number of handguns when female agents forgot their purses somewhere or they were stolen outright. Those guns ended up with the criminal element of society. Yet, imploring people to carry guns as though they might actually have to use them, fell on deaf ears.

We also lost guns stored in vehicles as NYC averages 110 car thefts per day. If you need a gun, you need control of it.

I've also witnessed young mothers getting together for children's' play dates or for coffee, leaving their purses unattended in a pile or perhaps in a bedroom, with toddlers about the house.

If anything is also certain besides death and taxes is the fact that people won't heed this message.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:39 AM
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I overheard, at my gun club, a woman retired LEO counseling another women who was just getting into CCW. The older woman said she doesn't carry in her purse because women sometimes leave purses unattended. Like when they visit someone during a dinner party, they leave the purses in a spare bedroom or den along with jackets. Kids can get at them.

The LEO suggested a carry method the would keep the gun on her person at all times.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:51 AM
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Our Chief shot himself with a Shield.Medina Police Chief & ex-ATF supervisor Patrick Berarducci accidently shoots self in right leg | cleveland.com This type of trigger system is a accident waiting to happen. The Glock is the same. Off the body carry is careless too.

Last edited by jeeps; 01-01-2015 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
People GOTTA learn about their guns and be responsible for them. It's like babies. It's easy to have a baby or buy a gun, but that's just the start of a lifetime of responsibility.
THIS IS SO TRUE ! ! ! I DID FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT A 2 YEAR OLD COULD PULL A TRIGGER, BUT A SMALL SEMI-AUTO WITH THE SAFETY OFF DOESN'T TAKE MUCH---THE PROOF IS IN A PUDDING………..
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
THIS IS SO TRUE ! ! ! I DID FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT A 2 YEAR OLD COULD PULL A TRIGGER, BUT A SMALL SEMI-AUTO WITH THE SAFETY OFF DOESN'T TAKE MUCH---THE PROOF IS IN A PUDDING………..
I tried an LCP in a LGS and decided I didn't like it. The trigger was just too easy to pull for use without a safety -- which it doesn't have.

The original LC9 is better because is has a loooong trigger pull similar to a revolver -- plus a safety if you want to use it.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:39 AM
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There's no way a toddler could pull the 16# trigger of my 351c. My wife can barely do it; she thought the trigger was broken at first. It takes a very deliberate effort.
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Old 01-01-2015, 01:00 PM
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Oh well, now get ready to hear the screams from the anti-gun crowd!
I'm ready for them.
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Old 01-01-2015, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post
And before the kid pulled the trigger,the safety was flipped off too?
I'd venture to say that the gun was in fire mode,which should never be the case with loaded automatic,not in your hand.
At the risk of being accused of thread drift, what about a Glock?
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Old 01-01-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
Oh really? You're sure about that?

M&P SHIELD - Smith & Wesson
The information that the pistol was a 9mm Shield was tweeted yesterday by the newspaper The Spokesman Review out of Spokane, which covers an area including northern Idaho where the shooting occurred.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:09 PM
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Off body carry is always sketchy. If you have to carry in a purse or bag, keep the bag on your person. If you have to take it off for some reason, keep your eyes on it and hopefully within arms reach.

On body carry is better.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth View Post
PD's saying S&W Shield. It has a safety; assume it was off.

There's already a couple merged threads running on this sad incident in The Lounge.
Shield's are available with or without a thumb safety. Mine does not have a thumb safety, and could easily be fired by a small child (or any of my Kahr's, for that matter). Her's was probably one without the thumb safety.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:37 PM
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Why is it that so many members of this forum, who are expected to be pro-gun to some degree, are so eager to abuse the memory of this woman who so unfortunately died as a result of a pure accident? We are supposed to be on the same side, why aren't we?

Could she have done things differently? Probably. FWIW I do agree that off-body carry is not the best of ideas, but there are many who do it. But is carrying a firearm in a purse dedicated to concealed carrying of a firearm irresponsible? Absolutely not! Would it have happened if she had had a double-action revolver instead of a striker-fired semi-automatic pistol? Most likely not, especially if it had been a "Centennial" style revolver! But was she irresponsible because of her choice of firearm? Absolutely not! If she was then there are a bunch of you who are equally irresponsible for owning the same make/model of pistol!

One of you remarked that women should never let their purse/child in a grocery cart out of their sight, and this is absolutely true. But there is no information that this person did so, so why was it mentioned in this context? Quite to the contrary, she was struck in the head by the bullet! This absolutely places her within line-of-sight of the shopping cart! If she had been around a display, or around the corner/end of the shelving this would have been no more than an A/D by a child!

This woman has already paid the ultimate price for whatever errors, real or perceived, she may have made. If you think you have the right to call yourselves MEN, then LEAVE HER ALONE!

There will be more than sufficient abuse heaped on her and all gun owners by the "Antis" as a result of this incident, we don't need to be part of it!
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:40 PM
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This is the very reason ALL of my firearms (sans revolvers) have a manual safety. I also spend a lot of time practicing drawing my firearm while turning the safety off...while sighting the target. As a guitar player for many years, if you practice something over and over again with your hands and fingers, muscle memory begins to take over and it eventually becomes second nature. When I grip my semi-autos, my thumb automatically sweeps the safety down as I'm drawing. My dad taught me the same thing on rifles as a kid. If I'm carrying with a round in the chamber, the safety is on...and revolvers are un-cocked with hefty DA triggers.


This type of event is also the very reason that my wife will not carry her CCW in her purse. She hardly even carries a purse at all. We don't even have kids. Purses get snatched, left in bathroom stalls, lost, etc. Hard to have access to a CCW when you're separated from your purse.
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Old 01-01-2015, 02:42 PM
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Alk8944: As you will see below, my concern is that she was not serious about a serious issue. She died as a result. There was NO EXCUSE for her conduct, and she paid the ultimate price for it. However, we will pay politically for these events, and if we do not learn from them and push aggressively for our fellow gun owners to be responsible, we will be force fed very bad things. It is not a pro-or anti-gun issue in many ways - it is a pro or anti responsible conduct issue, like many others.

jeeps said: Our Chief shot himself with a Shield. Medina Police Chief & ex-ATF supervisor Patrick Berarducci accidently shoots self in right leg | cleveland.com This type of trigger system is a accident waiting to happen. The Glock is the same. Off the body carry is careless too.
*
While it does not take a lot of stupid to have such an ND, a certain amount is required. At best, a serious violation of rule 3. The problem was not the pistol, it was the user. He is, and I would look him right in the face and say this, an idiot. He needs some serious retraining and a guardian. If I had the misfortune to be around him, I would never let him be out of my sight - too irresponsible to be trusted.

My response to the string in the Lounge about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17
I dont want to pass any judgment in a time like this but, but nearly every child will pull the trigger on a gun if they can pick it up. I have seen it happen, so do you really need a loaded chamber in Walmart? You can jack the slide in less than a second if you feel there might be danger and I doubt if any young child can manipulate the slide on a Glock.

Concealed carry citizens are not cops, and it actually wouldn't bother me if every concealed carry license required the chamber to be empty. If you feel a threat you can chamber your piece and quickly leave that area.
*
This been shown repeatedly to be a fail on many levels. The pistol needs a round chambered at all times unless out of service such as putting it in the safe or doing maintenance or dry practice. Period. One cannot be assured of circumstances that will allow for chambering a round; might already have an injury by the time of completing the draw, might be using a hand at contact range to hold off an assailant. Anyone who is not prepared to carry a firearm ready to shoot is not ready to carry a firearm. Period.

I don't care what make or model it is - you carry an M10, load all 6 holes in the cylinder; carry a 1911 or BHP, chamber one, apply the thumb safety, add a round to the mag - anything other than cocked and locked is unsat, regardless of the ghastly training from Uncle Sam that has been inflicted on so many; the Glock gets a round chambered, too. (With a Glock, and some other pistols, a holster that properly covers the trigger area is not an option.)

I have to be careful about critiquing purse carry lest one of our female members comes uncorked on me. However, for most purposes, off body carry like that is not merely a fail; it is clownshoes, negligent, disgraceful, and worse. I'll admit, I do not care what the fashion police say - I dress around the gun. Being armed AND READY TO FIGHT is not optional - being stylish is. Any other viewpoint is indicative of really skewed priorities in dire need of un(screw)ing. IF she was going to use a purse for carry, she need to have it on her, with a rigid adherence to priorities.

The purse HAD to have been in the cart and not in her control for this to occur. Unsat. Not at all acceptable. While one could assert that a 2 YO should not have been so out of control (my wife has, while discussing this incident), the ability of a small child to do and try things that were not foreseen is amazing. Answer: preclude the danger in other ways.

She was not ready for responsibility of being armed, and she died for it. The child will some day grow up and become aware, and live with this. We will all pay politically for this type of event. All of this was preventable, but occurred because the seriousness of the decision to be armed, and the duties that come with it, were not given their proper priority. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you are this cavalier about your decisions about being armed, change, or don't be armed. If you are in a position where you can influence people, teach that same standard. Nothing less is appropriate.
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:15 PM
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At the risk of being accused of thread drift, what about a Glock?
I reckon that I'm only acquainted with autos that have a safety-every auto that I've owned,has had one.Never gave a thought that some are produced without it.
That said,pulling any auto out of a purse pocket hastily,ready to fire with one in the tube,sounds like a recipe for an accident,or at least a premature discharge.
Personally,I'd never carry an auto ready to go,without the safety being on,in fact,I'd probably have it with the need to rack it.In my sheltered experience,I don't think that one added second of deliberation will change the outcome to the worse,but it could change it to the better.
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:18 PM
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I reckon that I'm only acquainted with autos that have a safety-every auto that I've owned,has had one.Never gave a thought that some are produced without it.
That said,pulling any auto out of a purse pocket hastily,ready to fire with one in the tube,sounds like a recipe for an accident,or at least a premature discharge.
Personally,I'd never carry an auto ready to go,without the safety being on,in fact,I'd probably have it with the need to rack it.In my sheltered experience,I don't think that one added second of deliberation will change the outcome to the worse,but it could change it to the better.
You mean "produced without an external, manually operated safety," right . . . ?
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:26 PM
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Yes.
(My Beretta 87,1911,Smith 41,Smith 952,BHP,Challenger,-all had an external,manually operated
safety.)

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Old 01-01-2015, 03:30 PM
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Why is it that so many members of this forum, who are expected to be pro-gun to some degree, are so eager to abuse the memory of this woman who so unfortunately died as a result of a pure accident? We are supposed to be on the same side, why aren't we?
You misunderstand our intent. It's because we are pro-gun that we are having this discussion at all.

We are not abusing the memory of this woman, we are discussing a situation so that it doesn't happen again. In this context we are talking about what happened and how to avoid it. The conversation here is neutral and not about race, color, sex, ethnicity or religion. It's about what happened and how we can learn from it.

As gun enthusiasts we are obligated to talk about things like this. It is how we get better. It is how we prevent others from suffering the same fate.

Yes, it's an unfortunate situation and her family will have long suffering because of it. I feel for her. So, let's help others not become victims of the same situation.
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:36 PM
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Yes.
(My Beretta 87,1911,Smith 41,Smith 952,BHP,Challenger,-all had an external,manually operated
safety.)
Good. You realize there are three internal safeties on the S&W and Glock, don't you? I don't understand how a microwave oven works, but I don't run around bashing them . . .
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:45 PM
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I intend no unfair criticism of the dear lady killed in this incident, but let's face the facts -- she made a fatal and tragic error. If you choose to carry a gun, you MUST know how to control it and it MUST be IN YOUR CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. The manual safety/no manual safety is a pure red herring. DAO autos are as safe as DA revolvers to the individual who knows how to handle one; allow a rambunctious 2-year-old access to either and all bets are off. I see women in Walmart and elsewhere every day who leave their bags unattended in their shopping carts. Whether they have guns in there or not is irrelevant; it's a bad idea.

Part of the problem, I am sure, is the compulsion many women seem to feel to carry huge bags loaded with Lord-knows-what-all. While on vacation last summer, and after a long day walking around Freeport, Maine, my wife complained that her back was hurting. I suggested that perhaps this was caused by her gi-mongous shoulder bag, and she responded that she only carried the stuff she needed. I challenged her to show me everything in her bag that she had ACTUALLY USED within the past year. There were car keys, wallet, sunglasses, a small pack of tissues, a hair brush -- and that was about it. The result -- I got ragged in to buying her a bag 1/4 the size of her old one -- and her backache was gone for good. Small price to pay!
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:46 PM
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I don't understand how a microwave oven works, but I don't run around bashing them . . .
Not even with a sledge hammer? They make a nice crunching sound...
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:49 PM
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Oh really? You're sure about that?

M&P SHIELD - Smith & Wesson
Thanks for clarifying -- didn't realize two versions were offered. So she may or may not have had one with a safety, and it may or may not have been engaged -- but the likeliest scenarios are either no safety or a disengaged one.
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Old 01-01-2015, 03:51 PM
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Shield's are available with or without a thumb safety. Mine does not have a thumb safety, and could easily be fired by a small child (or any of my Kahr's, for that matter). Her's was probably one without the thumb safety.
Pisgah beat ya to it.

The victim likely either didn't have the safety, or had one that wasn't engaged -- although with all the unlikely events leading to this fatality, I suppose nothing can be ruled no matter how improbable.
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Old 01-01-2015, 04:08 PM
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Why is it that so many members of this forum, who are expected to be pro-gun to some degree, are so eager to abuse the memory of this woman who so unfortunately died as a result of a pure accident? We are supposed to be on the same side, why aren't we?
...

There will be more than sufficient abuse heaped on her and all gun owners by the "Antis" as a result of this incident, we don't need to be part of it!
It's distinctly pro-gun to look at errors made or possibly made -- especially tragic ones -- by fellow firearms enthusiasts, to better remind and reinforce for ourselves safe, responsible firearm carry and handling, and the potential consequences of failure, and the example that each approach sets.

Sure, we all know, but there's no reminder like reality and we all benefit from that, painful though it sometimes is.

After action reports, lessons learned and best practices discussions, particularly those that involve real-world examples, are neither abusive toward the principles involved nor divisive to the gun community, at least, not a strong gun community that can look at the issues.

We're still on the same team even if, for the betterment of all, we point out where one our players messed up.

The discussion, which has thus far remained practical, dispassionate and respectful from what I've seen, shouldn't be stifled by calling out our pro-gun credibility or, ridiculously, our manhood, when we honestly assess a screw up -- and there's no way to argue this wasn't a screw up.
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Old 01-01-2015, 07:06 PM
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You can't fix stupid that's what the gunny told me.
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:13 PM
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I don't think anything in this thread was intended to demean or abuse the young woman who died in this incident. Personally speaking, my heart goes out to her son and to her family, and the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I." I say that in the sense that all of us, at some point, have "lost the bubble" in looking after our firearms as carefully as we always should. 99 times out of 100, I would guess, the error doesn't have fatal consequences; indeed, rarely would it even result in a negligent discharge. I don't mind admitting I've done some really boneheaded things at times with my firearms that were the result of just losing concentration for a moment or two.

Yes, as others have pointed out, this is a learning opportunity for the rest of us. As we mourn the passing of this young woman, we also look to see if there is a silver lining at all in this cloud, and one of the only ones I see is that others can learn from this, so that perhaps it will never happen to them.

Or should I say, us.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:31 PM
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Default Absolutely not......

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I don't think anything in this thread was intended to demean or abuse the young woman who died in this incident.
Absolutely not. I wasn't looking at it from a personal viewpoint, but from the standpoint that EVERYBODY needs to sharpen up their safety skills and awareness. The poor kid now doesn't have a Mom and he's probably going to have to find out sometime what he did. The family has got to be devastated and the other kids and her husband don't have her. And to her credit, she was responsible in nearly all areas except for a lapse gun safety. She surely didn't 'deserve what she got' like 'some people' say on the news comments. I'm taking every opportunity to impart a decent viewpoint into these comments.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:47 PM
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I purchased an M&P compact for cc just because it had a thumb safety. Numerous times I noticed the safety had worked its way to fire. The safety was a joke. I sold the gun.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:03 AM
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I purchased an M&P compact for cc just because it had a thumb safety. Numerous times I noticed the safety had worked its way to fire. The safety was a joke. I sold the gun.
One thing that bugged me about semis was that there were so many different designs, each with it's own quirks that a person does not only have to know semis, they have to know THEIR own gun....well.

I got over my adherence to only revolvers and got a third gen DAO. I'm in the market for another semi for carry and I have to strongly consider how it's going to be set and carried in a way that suits me and my surroundings.
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Old 01-02-2015, 01:28 AM
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If you choose to purse carry it should remain on your body at all times, no exceptions. The purse is your holster. To have a child in a shopping cart inches away from a loaded gun is irresponsible. This story could have been even more tragic if the child had lost his life because of his mothers mistake. We all make mistakes, but avoidable tragedies like this one are always fustrating to hear about.
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:41 AM
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Default Here is a hard question.....

Without know the details of the condition the gun was carried in we can't know exactly what went wrong. It seems obvious that it was chambered and the safety off. If the gun were a Shield like stated earlier, it has a DAO trigger. Could this have happened with a DA revolver???
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:52 AM
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How can you say that we don't know what went wrong? A 2 year old got their hands on a gun when they shouldn't have. That's what went wrong.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:16 PM
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I can answer one reason why I often leave my purse in a cart, it doesn't have anything really important in it only my checkbook, sunglasses, a notepad and pen. I have my wallet with all credit cards and money in a pocket and my firearm is nearly always in my on-body holster.

It does happen to be a CCW purse, but when I do have to carry in it for whatever reason the strap goes over my shoulder and the only time I am not wearing it is when my husband is guarding it in the car due to me having to go in to the post office or other forbidden to carry place. Usually the first thing I do when I get to a place with a decent lockable bathroom is move the firearm out of the purse and back into my holster that I am always wearing.

As to safety or not, I have chosen to carry only firearms without any sort of manual safety. I do not want that one additional thing to remember before I have to fire if I am ever forced to defend myself. So whether it's a revolver or a semi-auto I get them without any external safety. To me that is safer.

The safety depends on me not on the firearm.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:40 PM
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Very sad & unfortunate accident that should never have had happened and a clear example of how gun ownership is a 24/7 responsibility. I hate to say this but it was clearly negilence on the mothers part. As far as the law is concerned, criminal negilence.

As gun owners we are responsible 24/7 and more so in the presence of minors. In fact, there was a nice yellow paper packed in with my BG380 from the BAFT on the "Youth handgun safety notice" and the first 8 pages of my M&P shield owners guide were full of warnings telling us not to do what this woman did.. Leave a loaded pistol unattended in a location that was accessible by a minor. I own a M&P shield 9mm, mine comes with a safety that has a firm audiable "click". It's there for a reason, now if the pistol is on your person then i assume you would have full control over it, then you can keep the safety on or off. But if its not under your full control then it should be on, it shouldnt even be loaded! But like i said I have one and i just dry fired it and yes, I think its possible for a child as young as 2 to pull the trigger.

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Old 01-02-2015, 01:02 PM
filipows filipows is offline
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I can answer one reason why I often leave my purse in a cart, it doesn't have anything really important in it only my checkbook, sunglasses, a notepad and pen. I have my wallet with all credit cards and money in a pocket and my firearm is nearly always in my on-body holster.

It does happen to be a CCW purse, but when I do have to carry in it for whatever reason the strap goes over my shoulder and the only time I am not wearing it is when my husband is guarding it in the car due to me having to go in to the post office or other forbidden to carry place. Usually the first thing I do when I get to a place with a decent lockable bathroom is move the firearm out of the purse and back into my holster that I am always wearing.

As to safety or not, I have chosen to carry only firearms without any sort of manual safety. I do not want that one additional thing to remember before I have to fire if I am ever forced to defend myself. So whether it's a revolver or a semi-auto I get them without any external safety. To me that is safer.

The safety depends on me not on the firearm.




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Old 01-02-2015, 01:35 PM
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... As to safety or not, I have chosen to carry only firearms without any sort of manual safety. I do not want that one additional thing to remember before I have to fire.....
Not to argue with your choice -- each of us has to do what we are comfortable with -- but if someone has to think about or remember to release the safety, I don't think he is familiar enough with his firearm. For example, if I am carrying my Beretta Jetfire (SA only semiauto), I cock the hammer back as I draw it out of my pocket -- without thinking. Do it a thousand times and it's second nature -- or as Shall Not said (post 27), muscle memory.

As someone else said, we have to learn our individual guns and, I would add, make their use automatic.
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