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Old 02-18-2015, 03:16 PM
JohnSW JohnSW is offline
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Default Another concealed carry death

ST. JOSEPH, Mich. Police say a 55-year-old southwestern Michigan woman who died after accidentally shooting herself in the head in January was adjusting a handgun in her bra holster at the time.

Woman fatally shot self while adjusting bra holster

I guess it's safest to stick with "traditional holsters". As you probably remember, not so long ago there was a death involving a concealed carry purse.
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Old 02-18-2015, 04:16 PM
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I have seen these bra holsters and for women carrying smallish guns they seem to be ideal. It doesn't matter much what holster you use if you forget your safety rules - here this poor woman is adjusting a handgun that is obviously muzzle up and somehow she touches the trigger, thereby destroying her best safety, the one that, sadly, she was not using - her brain.

I cannot fault a lady for using a bra holster - the convenience is vast - but a loaded weapon not properly inside any holster requires a whole lot of caution!
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Old 02-18-2015, 04:22 PM
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Training training training..... And proper, repeatable, sensible training is the only thing that will stop these tragedies. I pray that this woman's family can learn proficiency with their tools for this terrible price, so that her life was not wasted. RIP...
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Old 02-18-2015, 04:27 PM
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I'm sorry, it happened on New Year's in Detroit. Way more "information" needed about this than is available. Joe
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:05 PM
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Not literally a "concealed carry" incident, but a negligent discharge that happened to involve holstering. Tragic to say the least.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:11 PM
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Default Too much overthinking...again?

I have known female LEO's for thirty-nine (39) years. Nary a one has used a bra holster. That is a fact.

Be safe.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:23 PM
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Tragic accident, but her fault non the less.
Always have to know where your trigger finger is.
Be interesting to know what kind of gun it was, I've seen some cheap guns that I wouldn't carry even if empty.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
I have known female LEO's for thirty-nine (39) years. Nary a one has used a bra holster. That is a fact.
I think that bra holsters are a fairly new development of the concealed carry movement and more women joining that movement. I don't think these were very common until recently.

Flashbang Bra Holster
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:33 PM
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Google "Flash Bang Holster". There is almost no way you can draw from that thing without pointing the muzzle at things you don't want shot.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:41 PM
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Everytime this happens, people come on and say "training, training, training". The vast majority of people don't GET any training, because nobody says they have to, they don't want to spend the money, or because they feel they HAVE been trained by some equally incompetent shooter.

On another forum I belong to, there was a debate about a safety being on a semi auto. Some police chief shot himself in the leg in a gun shop with his Glock. The glock fanboys started in with the "my finger is my safety" and "my safety is between my ears". Many others, like myself, feel they are an asset, since they reduce the likelihood of an AD. And with very little practice, they become intuitive. After all, people carried semi auto's for decades until Glock graced mankind with his presence.

So one guy gets on there, and starts screaming about people liking safeties are afraid of their guns. He says his teachers in his "advanced pistol course" taught him safeties are dangerous and will get you killed. Says he carries his Beretta PX4 chambered and cocked.

So I figure he's mistaken and ask him to clarify. Was he really carrying a Beretta PX4 cocked with the hammer back on a live round? Couldn't be, right? WRONG! He WAS carrying it that way! according to him and his "teachers", it's no different than a Glock! Didn't understand a striker fired weapon over a hammer fired.

I bet this woman had BASIC instruction, and by that I mean "the bullet comes out of this end".

This is why I shoot on weekdays and early. Too many idiots thinking they're competent out there who don't know squat about guns.

And I bet the gun used here was a Glock or some other striker fired safety-less auto. She's not carrying a steel gun in a bra. And I bet she got that gun because "the cops use these so they're the best, right?"

Last edited by kbm6893; 02-18-2015 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-18-2015, 08:19 PM
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I have lived long enough to know that things are seldom as they appear.
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:16 PM
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Well. You dont need money to train yourself to keep your hand off the trigger. To me that is money wasted. But training is essential for sure. People think guns make them Gods and yes safeties will get you killed. Id really just like to point out that our military uses safeties and theyre the ones looking for danger. And yes. I own many glocks and love them, but people are too cocky with saying my finger is my safety or my safety is between my ears : /

Last edited by ClayCow; 02-18-2015 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:38 PM
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That's my point. Some idiot decided a bra holster was somehow a swell idea.

Be safe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I think that bra holsters are a fairly new development of the concealed carry movement and more women joining that movement. I don't think these were very common until recently.

Flashbang Bra Holster
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:09 PM
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Its fine. Just pick a gun with a safety on it!
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:26 PM
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I almost got run out of this forum when I posted that I would not carry without a manual safety engaged. The majority of responses were that I shouldn't own a semi if I felt that way, "no better than carrying a brick". This accident is just another example where an engaged manual safety would have most likely prevented this tragedy.
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:40 PM
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Internet search for "bra holster" if you need visuals.
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:46 PM
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Even with training, careless accidents can happen... check out this DEA agent teaching a safety class and shoots himself in the foot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:46 PM
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Far too many gun owners have gotten all their "training" by a salesperson at the LGS. It's not far removed from getting driving instruction at the car dealer upon signing for your new vehicle.

A few years ago at my local one-horse-town shop, a fellow walked in with a shiny new semi-auto. I can't recall what it was, but I will never forget that the gent bought it elsewhere because he got a "deal". Only problem was he had no idea how to rack the slide or insert the magazine. He was too embarrassed to go back where he got the "deal", thus came into my LGS for a bit of advice. The owner has been around firearms all her life, and took Mr. Neophyte through all the basic safety steps, giving him free information that probably saved his life or some else's. Was the customer a bad person? An irresponsible cretin? A Mall Ninja Trainee? No. he was simply a person who purchased a firearm before he had Clue #1 on how to operate it safely, and was ignorant of basic protocols associated with handling firearms. Now, the question of whether he should have been able to make a purchase without requisite training is an entirely different issue ... a Pandora's Box not to be opened here and now.

This fellow is not the first, nor the last, person to buy a handgun for CCW or self/home defense with minimal knowledge on operational fundamentals. He and his uninformed brethren are walking talking NDs waiting to happen. And until people wise up and realize they individually and collectively NEED a modicum of training as gun owners, we will continue to see tragedies occur. Ironically, such tragedies/accidents can happen to even experienced gun owners. The four basic rules should be embedded in every firearm owner's memory bank, irrespective of personal experience.
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Old 02-19-2015, 12:34 AM
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Just to add some perspective here there are between 80 and 100 MILLION gun owners in this country.

In 2011 (the last year I could find data for) there were 32,351 deaths caused by firearms (that’s something like 1/10 of 1% of the population).

Of those 32,351 deaths 591 were ruled accidental> I can’t even begin to do the math on that one but I bet it’s less than 1/10000th of 1% of the total population.

Not what I’d call an epidemic by any means
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Old 02-19-2015, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCow View Post
Its fine. Just pick a gun with a safety on it!
I have only ever carried DA/SAs or striker fired pistols.
No NDs yet
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Old 02-19-2015, 12:43 AM
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Never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy. Plain, simple logic. And DO NOT believe that a manual safety would make this go away. Safeties fail.
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Old 02-19-2015, 01:03 AM
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Never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy. Plain, simple logic. And DO NOT believe that a manual safety would make this go away. Safeties fail.
I've seen a lot of people fail, but in 28 yrs of shooting, I have yet to see a safety fail....
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Old 02-19-2015, 01:22 AM
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I have a 5906 purchased 21 years ago.Looked at a Sig .45ACP a few mos. ago and like the operation/safety of the 5906 much better. S&W revolvers seem much simpler and safer to me.

What sucks is the first time my wife shot it last weekend she's better than me with it. 21 years of ownership and I am terrible at shooting it. Last weekend she shot it very well with her limited experience. The 21 years of marriage with her has been much better than 21 years of me trying to shoot the 5906!!! Confession done! OK? Thank you!

Last edited by S&W SS Revolvers; 02-19-2015 at 01:29 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 02-19-2015, 09:58 AM
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Safeties can and will fail. They must be checked on a regular basis.

I know someone who had a SD/DA autoloader. He inserted a magazine and dropped the slide. Flipped the slide mounted safety down and the gun fired 3 rounds through his back door. There was a forest behind his house so no damage done except to the door.

Safeties are just little metal pieces. They can wear out and break.

Most accidents occur when loading or unloading or handing when holstering. Be careful. Dont take you carry gun out unless you really have to. Recently a man shot and killed his 7 year old son outside a gunshop. I think he was probably reholstering his gun because the gunshop did not allow him to carry inside. It would have been safer to just keep it in the holster. I dont know this to be fact but I suspect that may be what happened. I dont frequent shops that dont allow carry because of this hazard. If I must go somewhere I know I have to stow the gun, then I go with an empty chamber. I really dont like that but the alternative of an unintention discharge scares me.
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Old 02-19-2015, 11:01 AM
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( QUOTE People think guns make them Gods and yes safeties will get you killed...UNQUOTE). Providing that you are competent with the use of your gun....how will safeties get you killed ???
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead7544 View Post
Safeties can and will fail. They must be checked on a regular basis.

I know someone who had a SD/DA autoloader. He inserted a magazine and dropped the slide. Flipped the slide mounted safety down and the gun fired 3 rounds through his back door. There was a forest behind his house so no damage done except to the door.

Safeties are just little metal pieces. They can wear out and break.
You know someone who had three rounds fire from a DA/SA semi-auto when he engaged the safety? Sounds like the gun went full auto. How did the safety do this? Was this a hammer drop safety? Sounds an awful like the sear didn't engage after the first round, finger on the trigger? Did the gun have a rebounding firing pin? Possible slam fire?

I ask this because most DA/SA semi-autos I've seen have a sear that engages the hammer to keep this from happening. Both my Kimbers have a sear as do my Berettas that prevents the hammer from following the slide as it travels forward. The sear doesn't release till I let the trigger go forward enough to cause an operating bar to engage the sear which will then release the hammer on the next pull of the trigger thereby allowing the hammer to fire the next cartridge.

Sorry this is so long I'm just trying to understand what you posted.
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrvl View Post
( QUOTE People think guns make them Gods and yes safeties will get you killed...UNQUOTE). Providing that you are competent with the use of your gun....how will safeties get you killed ???
You misunderstood or i didnt communicate properly. I was saying that they dont get you killed. But in line with that sentence i was being facetious.
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead7544 View Post
Safeties can and will fail. They must be checked on a regular basis.


Most accidents occur when loading or unloading or handing when holstering. Be careful. Dont take you carry gun out unless you really have to. Recently a man shot and killed his 7 year old son outside a gunshop. I think he was probably reholstering his gun because the gunshop did not allow him to carry inside. It would have been safer to just keep it in the holster. I dont know this to be fact but I suspect that may be what happened. I dont frequent shops that dont allow carry because of this hazard. If I must go somewhere I know I have to stow the gun, then I go with an empty chamber. I really dont like that but the alternative of an unintention discharge scares me.
so. You make a claim that accidents happen when holster and reholster but you reference a story whch you dont know the circumstances.
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Old 02-19-2015, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
Everytime this happens, people come on and say "training, training, training". The vast majority of people don't GET any training, because nobody says they have to, they don't want to spend the money, or because they feel they HAVE been trained by some equally incompetent shooter.

On another forum I belong to, there was a debate about a safety being on a semi auto. Some police chief shot himself in the leg in a gun shop with his Glock. The glock fanboys started in with the "my finger is my safety" and "my safety is between my ears". Many others, like myself, feel they are an asset, since they reduce the likelihood of an AD. And with very little practice, they become intuitive. After all, people carried semi auto's for decades until Glock graced mankind with his presence.

So one guy gets on there, and starts screaming about people liking safeties are afraid of their guns. He says his teachers in his "advanced pistol course" taught him safeties are dangerous and will get you killed. Says he carries his Beretta PX4 chambered and cocked.

So I figure he's mistaken and ask him to clarify. Was he really carrying a Beretta PX4 cocked with the hammer back on a live round? Couldn't be, right? WRONG! He WAS carrying it that way! according to him and his "teachers", it's no different than a Glock! Didn't understand a striker fired weapon over a hammer fired.

I bet this woman had BASIC instruction, and by that I mean "the bullet comes out of this end".

This is why I shoot on weekdays and early. Too many idiots thinking they're competent out there who don't know squat about guns.

And I bet the gun used here was a Glock or some other striker fired safety-less auto. She's not carrying a steel gun in a bra. And I bet she got that gun because "the cops use these so they're the best, right?"

Credible news outlets have reported that she was armed with a .22 revolver. While that's seemingly incredible, I've not seen anything to contradict it.


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Old 02-19-2015, 09:23 PM
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First off, it's tragic that it even happened. Accidental discharges, even if they don't cause physical damage, are a traumatic thing.

On the other hand, believe it or not, I've never had the desire to even try a bra holster. I guess I should consider myself fortunate.
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Old 02-19-2015, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecos Bill View Post
You know someone who had three rounds fire from a DA/SA semi-auto when he engaged the safety? Sounds like the gun went full auto. How did the safety do this? Was this a hammer drop safety? Sounds an awful like the sear didn't engage after the first round, finger on the trigger? Did the gun have a rebounding firing pin? Possible slam fire?

I ask this because most DA/SA semi-autos I've seen have a sear that engages the hammer to keep this from happening. Both my Kimbers have a sear as do my Berettas that prevents the hammer from following the slide as it travels forward. The sear doesn't release till I let the trigger go forward enough to cause an operating bar to engage the sear which will then release the hammer on the next pull of the trigger thereby allowing the hammer to fire the next cartridge.

Sorry this is so long I'm just trying to understand what you posted.
There is no firing pin lock on this early model. The design was changed to add one later. Not sure what caused the three round burst. Others of this model were also known to have fired when the hammer drop safety was used. The firing pin has a spring.
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Old 02-19-2015, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ClayCow View Post
so. You make a claim that accidents happen when holster and reholster but you reference a story whch you dont know the circumstances.
I am not making a claim. It is just speculation on my part.

When you handle loaded guns, stuff happens. I knew the head of an alphabet organization in a large midwest city. He took off his PPK every morning and put it in a safe in his office. One day, while turning the safe dial, he fired off a round. Why? I dont know. It was a safety slug and he was not hurt. The shot and metal jacket were found on the floor. It would have been better if he had kept the gun in the holster. The slug hit the safe at around six inches. I was surprised he told me this. He was really shook up.

Last edited by ironhead7544; 02-19-2015 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-20-2015, 08:24 AM
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I am confused. Did he fire off the round or did the gun randomly shoot off a round?
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Old 02-21-2015, 05:35 PM
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Dont know. The PPK has a stiff DA pull. Possible it was somehow cocked.
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Old 02-21-2015, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by oldylocks View Post
Even with training, careless accidents can happen... check out this DEA agent teaching a safety class and shoots himself in the foot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug
Or the police chief who discharged his Glop in the gun store. I'm sure he was well trained.

Google accidental discharges by police. A sample

http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/ac...ischarges.aspx
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Old 02-21-2015, 06:19 PM
ClayCow ClayCow is offline
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Originally Posted by ironhead7544 View Post
Dont know. The PPK has a stiff DA pull. Possible it was somehow cocked.
So again. Youre drawing conclusions of which you dont know the circumstances. Im not quite sure thats the best way.
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Old 02-21-2015, 06:59 PM
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When human beings are involved anything can and does happen?
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  #38  
Old 02-21-2015, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
Or the police chief who discharged his Glop in the gun store. I'm sure he was well trained.

Google accidental discharges by police. A sample

http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/ac...ischarges.aspx
I wish those articles would state something more than AD. AD could be someone pulling the trigger, not a fail on safety. Unfortunately the site doesnt expand on details. But I really doubt it is random guns firing off due to someone not pulling the trigger with the safety engaged.

There was a guy on there suing glock for not having adequate safety after his 3 year old got the gun and shot him : / talk about a moron.
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Old 02-22-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I think that bra holsters are a fairly new development of the concealed carry movement and more women joining that movement. I don't think these were very common until recently.

Flashbang Bra Holster
Not as new as one might think. Skeeter mentioned them in passing in the 60's.
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Old 02-22-2015, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCityChief View Post
Credible news outlets have reported that she was armed with a .22 revolver. While that's seemingly incredible, I've not seen anything to contradict it.


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Actually, I can see that fairly easily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NAA mini revolvers don't have safeties other than the safety notches on the cylinder. If that's true, it's completely possible that she either already lowered the hammer on a primer or, in the process of adjusting the gun, she bumped the hammer, moving it from the safety notch.
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Old 02-22-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CO_Kid View Post
Actually, I can see that fairly easily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NAA mini revolvers don't have safeties other than the safety notches on the cylinder. If that's true, it's completely possible that she either already lowered the hammer on a primer or, in the process of adjusting the gun, she bumped the hammer, moving it from the safety notch.

Understood - I had no idea she was carrying that particular revolver.


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Old 02-22-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptRon956 View Post
I've seen a lot of people fail, but in 28 yrs of shooting, I have yet to see a safety fail....
I had safeties fail twice in 50 years of shooting and hunting, once on an old Winchester bolt action .22 LR rifle; once on a bolt action Ruger M77 chambered in 7mm mag. The Ruger was later recalled due to this exact issue.

Each time, the rifle fired when I tried to unload a chambered round. IIRC (these happened in about 1985 and 1967, approximately) when placing the safety on "FIRE," in preparation for sucking the cartridge from the chamber by working the bolt, the rifles each fired. Each time, the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction,. I did not touch the trigger either time. Each time, it scared me.

Yes, mechanical objects are ALL subject to failure.
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Old 02-22-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Collects View Post
I had safeties fail twice in 50 years of shooting and hunting, once on an old Winchester bolt action .22 LR rifle; once on a bolt action Ruger M77 chambered in 7mm mag. The Ruger was later recalled due to this exact issue.

Each time, the rifle fired when I tried to unload a chambered round by working the bolt. Each time, the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction,. I did not touch the trigger either time. Each time, it scared me.

Yes, mechanical objects are ALL subject to failure.
That is not the safety which in referring, though that is a safety issue. I know you werent addressing me, but i was talking about safety lever engaged and someone pulling the trigger.
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Old 02-22-2015, 07:14 PM
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Understood - I had no idea she was carrying that particular revolver.


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I don't know that she was, but after seeing pics of that holster, and your report that she had a 22 revolver, that's what my mind went to as the gun fits the description of a 22 and would fit with that holster.
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  #45  
Old 02-22-2015, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CO_Kid View Post
Actually, I can see that fairly easily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NAA mini revolvers don't have safeties other than the safety notches on the cylinder. If that's true, it's completely possible that she either already lowered the hammer on a primer or, in the process of adjusting the gun, she bumped the hammer, moving it from the safety notch.
With the hammer down it is resting on the cartridge like the Colt and old Ruger SAs. The safety notches don't work very well so it is safer to carry it with the hammer on an empty chamber. Maybe she was carrying it cocked. Larry
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Old 02-22-2015, 10:31 PM
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Oye tragic.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldylocks View Post
Even with training, careless accidents can happen... check out this DEA agent teaching a safety class and shoots himself in the foot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug
This guy isn't very bright, he shouldn't even carry a blank gun.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:16 AM
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^Yes - that was a very bizarre incident.^


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Old 02-23-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I have seen these bra holsters and for women carrying smallish guns they seem to be ideal. It doesn't matter much what holster you use if you forget your safety rules - here this poor woman is adjusting a handgun that is obviously muzzle up and somehow she touches the trigger, thereby destroying her best safety, the one that, sadly, she was not using - her brain.

I cannot fault a lady for using a bra holster - the convenience is vast - but a loaded weapon not properly inside any holster requires a whole lot of caution!
2 little words in this post get right to the whole potential problem with a bra holster, "muzzle up." Every bra holster I've seen positions the gun muzzle up, right toward the head of the woman who would wear it. In my opinion, this muzzle pointing at head makes the whole idea a bad one. Unfortunately I don't think this will be the only time we hear of this kind of ND.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by geoff40 View Post
2 little words in this post get right to the whole potential problem with a bra holster, "muzzle up." Every bra holster I've seen positions the gun muzzle up,
Flashbang does not. I have one, not used it yet but it's an option for when other clothing is not suitable or allowed and I still want to carry.
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