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  #101  
Old 03-13-2015, 10:02 PM
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Here's another target you can use. I just made this and if it's printed on standard 8.5"x11" paper it will yield a 2"x3" center to shoot at.
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Old 03-13-2015, 10:09 PM
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Sigh, I so wanna just get out and ventilate some paper.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:25 PM
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And, we all have lives beyond this forum. It will take a little while for some of us to filter our way to the range.
That would describe me, sir.


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I'm gonna let this run through the weekend then the shirt will be given away. If someone tells me to give them a little more time, I will.
I have no interest in your shirt, but I won't be able to get to the range until sometime next week. That's just the way things are in my situation. I'll see what I can do.

Thank you, sir.
Andy
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:19 AM
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I found a printable B-27 online. It's just most of the 9 ring, all of 10 ring, and all the X ring. File is attached. If it ain't raining tomorrow, I'll try it out.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:58 AM
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A 3x5 index card could be used with an appropriate border. 1" top and bottom, 1/2" on the sides, color is your option.

Kevin
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:47 AM
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Charter Arms Bulldog 44 special. 2.5" barrel, 240 grain 820 fps.
Standard course of fire. Outside in the snow. I get a 2" group, you can measure. Not all IN the x.

I found 3 targets for $2.49. One more try, this match should be won with a Smith.

David Determine R

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Old 03-14-2015, 12:50 PM
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Here's my attempt from earlier today! Definitely not as good as most of you, but given that I've been shooting for under a year, I'm pleased with it overall.

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Old 03-14-2015, 02:40 PM
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First it was keep it in the X. Then we are competing for group size to the .001"

Why all the extra paper?



Smith and Wesson Model 25-7 Model of 1989. I bought it new. Dennis Vantassel did the best trigger job.

250 LRN 9.0 Uniqlue, 900 fps.

David

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Old 03-14-2015, 06:32 PM
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First it was keep it in the X. Then we are competing for group size to the .001"

Why all the extra paper?
It's still keep it in the X David. I was gonna head down the path of accuracy vs precision, but decided not to go there. Here I was trying to show everyone what a good shot you are and you respond with this. (Just messin with ya).

Again, I'd like to thank everyone for participating. I've posted this on a few gun forums. So far, this is the only forum where anyone has even tried it.

Pierre330,
For having been at this only a short time, that's a nice group. Heck, it's even a nice group for those of us that have been at it a while.
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:06 PM
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Default My 10 year old, takes the challenge!

Doug (Rastoff) should be awarded some forum "Legion Of Merit" for encourging this. What a service to us all. I just realized that I can't recall a day of shooting I have enjoyed more, other than years ago with my beloved, but long dead father. Funny that an old man, still tears up realizing he is missing his own dad.

My 10 year old (I am a very late in life, first-time father/single parent with a 10 year old at 53) and I got up to our ranch and shot all afternoon. Here he is with our beloved Model 28, Highway Patrolman, SN # S1139xx, which I understand to be first year of production, 1954-55. He did take the challenge shooting .38 Special.

Isn't it amazing that a revolver manufactured 50 years before he was born still shoots like new and can bring him such joy? I think this is a true testament to the Smith & Wesson company, and these guns we love so much. How many companies are still having their products loved, cherished and used in the field decades later? Not many. I wish I could shake Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson's hands and thank them in person. I hope they are smiling down from heaven.

My son looked at me coming home--we had the roof down on our Jeep and it was about 65 degrees with a beautiful sunset--and he said "dad, this has been one of the funnest days we have ever spent together. And that Highway Patrolman is my new favorite gun." I am going to order some ivory stocks for the Model 28 and give it to my son.
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:21 PM
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Default First Time Revolver Shooter takes the challenge too!

We were also blessed to have one of the young attorneys that works for me come and join us as well. Like so many young folks, he loves the black rifles and black plastic pistols. He had never shot a revolver before today. He is an experienced pistol shooter and his father was highly respected Detective. He lost his dad last year to cancer but has his service Glock mounted in a case.

I was proud to have him shoot the Highway Patrolman as his first revolver experience and he did pretty well too! He commented "I have been missing out, I have to get me one of these! I LOVE this trigger and the action is like butter." I told him, there is no school like the old school!"

I am going to have find him a nice Model 28 too, to give to him to commerate this day and shooting his first revolver.
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:54 AM
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[I was proud to have him shoot the Highway Patrolman as his first revolver experience and he did pretty well too! He commented "I have been missing out, I have to get me one of these! I LOVE this trigger and the action is like butter." I told him, there is no school like the old school!"

I am going to have find him a nice Model 28 too, to give to him to commerate this day and shooting his first revolver.
I like your style!

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My son looked at me coming home--we had the roof down on our Jeep and it was about 65 degrees with a beautiful sunset--and he said "dad, this has been one of the funnest days we have ever spent together. And that Highway Patrolman is my new favorite gun." I am going to order some ivory stocks for the Model 28 and give it to my son
Nothing like good father & son time!
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:27 AM
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I did this with my no dash 686. My range won't allow anything closer than 7 yard shots, so I did the chest shots in double action from 7 yards and the shots in the upper chest area were done in single action from roughly 9-10 yards away using cheap .38 special LAX reloads.

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Old 03-16-2015, 08:31 AM
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Doug (Rastoff) should be awarded some forum "Legion Of Merit" for encourging this. What a service to us all. I just realized that I can't recall a day of shooting I have enjoyed more, other than years ago with my beloved, but long dead father. Funny that an old man, still tears up realizing he is missing his own dad.

My 10 year old (I am a very late in life, first-time father/single parent with a 10 year old at 53) and I got up to our ranch and shot all afternoon. Here he is with our beloved Model 28, Highway Patrolman, SN # S1139xx, which I understand to be first year of production, 1954-55. He did take the challenge shooting .38 Special.

Isn't it amazing that a revolver manufactured 50 years before he was born still shoots like new and can bring him such joy? I think this is a true testament to the Smith & Wesson company, and these guns we love so much. How many companies are still having their products loved, cherished and used in the field decades later? Not many. I wish I could shake Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson's hands and thank them in person. I hope they are smiling down from heaven.

My son looked at me coming home--we had the roof down on our Jeep and it was about 65 degrees with a beautiful sunset--and he said "dad, this has been one of the funnest days we have ever spent together. And that Highway Patrolman is my new favorite gun." I am going to order some ivory stocks for the Model 28 and give it to my son.
Nice shooting, and very nice that you shared a day at the range with your son. Don't worry about being an older parent. I'm 43 and have twin 20 month old girls.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:01 AM
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Double action slow fire. Not my best work, but pretty typical.
Range Report: 1954 Pre 27-20140714_153304-jpg
Range Report: 1954 Pre 27-20140714_153056-jpg

While also not my best work, it's not bad for rapid fire (a few shots a second).

20140815_134250_LLS by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

Some folks scoff at a guy hammering rounds down range but if I'm going to practice for defensive shooting, I'm shooting at the ragged edge of my ability.

Those two low shots with the revolver were due to a couple of fizzlers with loose crimps.

This is the rest of the wheelguns doing the same:
INTERNET SNUBBY MATCH-20150113_171902-jpg
Shots were fired as fast as I can physically pull the trigger. While it doesn't look as good on paper it is better for you as practice. The more defined hits are 357 and the soft edged holes are 38spl.

At first I feared this gun had a sticky chamber issue. When ran that hot I found they'll all do that.


If you're going to have a defensive shooting challenge, perhaps add the rate of fire to the equation.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:06 PM
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Default Ruger Alaskan but with .44 Special, 200 gn, 800 FPS.

Opened up a bit here, but big Ruger is sweet shooter with .44 Special.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:17 PM
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If you're going to have a defensive shooting challenge, perhaps add the rate of fire to the equation.
Yep, lots of guys say that. The response will always be the same from me. Rapid fire (an ambiguous term at best) will hide a lot of sloppy trigger work and flinching. The "challenge" as presented, will accentuate any trigger control anomalies.

You're a good shot Rick. This is about solidifying those fundamentals. Doing this type of shooting every now and then will make for a better shooter all around.

As I stated in the OP, I had never actually done this until I shot the target in the OP. In fact, my own practice generally consists of controlled pairs and failures-to-stop drills. I'm adding this basic shooting back into my routine.

You're never too advanced to work on fundamentals.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:34 PM
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And for those who are just dying to shoot fast: Rastoff's Challenge II
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:53 PM
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Yep, lots of guys say that. The response will always be the same from me. Rapid fire (an ambiguous term at best) will hide a lot of sloppy trigger work and flinching. The "challenge" as presented, will accentuate any trigger control anomalies.

You're a good shot Rick. This is about solidifying those fundamentals. Doing this type of shooting every now and then will make for a better shooter all around.

As I stated in the OP, I had never actually done this until I shot the target in the OP. In fact, my own practice generally consists of controlled pairs and failures-to-stop drills. I'm adding this basic shooting back into my routine.

You're never too advanced to work on fundamentals.
I can't afford to spend much time at the range so most of it is spent on more defensive-oriented shooting skills. However, I always try to spend at least a cylinder-full or two of ammo focusing on fundamentals.
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Old 03-16-2015, 05:02 PM
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Yep, lots of guys say that. The response will always be the same from me. Rapid fire (an ambiguous term at best) will hide a lot of sloppy trigger work and flinching. The "challenge" as presented, will accentuate any trigger control anomalies.

You're a good shot Rick. This is about solidifying those fundamentals. Doing this type of shooting every now and then will make for a better shooter all around.

As I stated in the OP, I had never actually done this until I shot the target in the OP. In fact, my own practice generally consists of controlled pairs and failures-to-stop drills. I'm adding this basic shooting back into my routine.

You're never too advanced to work on fundamentals.
I do that with these:



No point in wasting good ammo in slow fire.
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Old 03-16-2015, 06:06 PM
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S&W10-5...3 rounds top right..oh well
no winner here but will try again
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Old 03-16-2015, 07:26 PM
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No point in wasting good ammo in slow fire.
Those are some interesting guns. I don't consider it a waste. Any trigger time is valuable if used properly.

While working with different guns is fine, it's also valuable to work with your self-defense gun. Learning every aspect of your gun is always a good use. You never know when you'll have to take a well placed shot. This is one way to practice that.
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:02 PM
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Nice shooting Shorty 45 MK2. Same to you ContinentalOp. Those hits will definitely stop the bad guy, but more importantly, they show that you have decent trigger control.

Thanks to all who have stepped up and tried this. There is another challenge out there now and more in the future. Shooting is fun, but quality practice that has a specific purpose is what makes us effective with our firearms.
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:48 PM
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Thanks, Rastoff. I'm looking forward to trying Challenge II. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:20 PM
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Default Matt With the Redhawk Alaskan

Again 44 Special, 200 Grain, 800 FPS. Seecond time to shoot a revolver.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:25 PM
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Default Matt with No-dash Model 36.

Chief's Special with Fiocchi 130 grain .38 Special hardball.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:49 PM
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No fancy targets for me; I aim at a square of duct tape (the square got shredded but there are remnants if you look close.) Here's my submission:

Here it is in another view with the Colt CCG used:

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I didn't follow the course exactly. Due to range congestion, I was unable to shoot at 3 yards--so I fired those four shots at 5 yards. Also, it was a mixed bag at the range--this gun is new and it stove piped and threw some brass in my face. Called Colt and it's going back to the factory for rework.

The penny is for scale; it is exactly 0.750" and according to my measurements I get 1.8" for my group but I will defer to Rastoff's computer for the final tally!

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Old 03-16-2015, 09:57 PM
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I would not want to get in a shoot out with a Wisconsin boy if they all shoot like you!
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:12 PM
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Well Waywatcher, not only can you shoot, but you know how to measure a group. Assuming you were using a .45ACP (.451" bullet diameter) and using the penny as a reference (.75" diameter), it measures like this:


I had to guess at the aim point because...well...it's missing. I also had to take a "best guess" at the upper left two rounds. The tearing really makes it hard to determine bullet hole location. Anyway, this is what the computer shows. Doesn't matter, a very nice group. So far, only David R and my groups are better.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:24 PM
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Thanks Rastoff!

The aim point was a little higher. I pulled 3 shots low (which is why their grease rings show up so nice.) .45 Auto indeed.

I had a fun time and it was the first time I'd gotten out to the range in about a month!
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:57 PM
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I had a fun time and it was the first time I'd gotten out to the range in about a month!
Fantastic! This is ultimately the goal here, to get out and shoot. Hopefully, have some fun in the process. I think it's worked at least a little.
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Old 03-17-2015, 12:18 AM
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Those are some interesting guns. I don't consider it a waste. Any trigger time is valuable if used properly.

While working with different guns is fine, it's also valuable to work with your self-defense gun. Learning every aspect of your gun is always a good use. You never know when you'll have to take a well placed shot. This is one way to practice that.
Of course. All my centerfire guns are self defense guns. I don't believe in range guns.

I can shoot ragged holes at 10-15 yards quite easily with most, while I can't at speed. My goal is to eventually match my slow fire group sizes while shooting as fast as I can.

For 20-25 yards out the little guns are a fun challenge.
INTERNET SNUBBY MATCH-20140725_224306-jpg

I'm hoping to cut that in half eventually.
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Old 03-17-2015, 01:07 AM
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I can shoot ragged holes at 10-15 yards quite easily with most,...
OK, show us.

Seriously, this is exactly what got me thinking about this challenge. I hear this all the time. Guys on the internet say, "I normally shoot 2" groups at 25 yards" or "I can shoot 3" groups at 50 yards with my super special wonder gun" yet I never see it.

I spend a lot of time at the range. I see a lot of targets. It's a rare day that I see a group smaller than 10" at 7 yards, let alone 50.

So, since I tell my students that the qualification test is easy, I decided to test myself and see just how easy. It wasn't easy for me to shoot the group I did in the OP. It took a lot of concentration on my fundamentals to get that group. And, I don't think my group is all that fantastic. I do think that is about as good as I can do right now.
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Old 03-17-2015, 02:37 AM
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Default AMEN!!!!

I laughed at how easy this would be to show up a big-talking Californian and a bunch of yankees! We shoot at 25 yards minimun, 50 yards to make it interesting. Amazing how far that 10 yard line is when you actually measure it with a tape measure. Maybe we are NOT shooting at 25 and 50 yards after all. Heck, I would have guessed the 10 yard line to be 15 to 20 yards minimun, but it was only 10 yards or 30 feet.

And I thought I could shoot a gnats eye out at a 100 yards with any of my revolvers or pistols! Yea right! I see Hickok45 ring the gong with .22 short derringers! And he makes it looks easy. I know I can do as well or better with my big guns.

Amazing how hard this was, especially cutting out the bull.
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Old 03-17-2015, 05:52 AM
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Truly impressive waywatcher. I am going to try it with my full size 45. It was my defense gun until I bought the light weight ACP.

This is a blast! I will be buying more B27 which I have NEVER shot at until now.

David
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Old 03-17-2015, 08:23 AM
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I haven't really shot my handguns for any kind of accuracy since The Shooting Center at S&W closed... he, that was an eye opener yesterday at my local outdoor range... I threw the targets away...

Been carrying my M&P40fs, instead of my Shield 40 lately. First shot from about 15 yds was an absolute almost dead center bullseye.. I turned around to my wife and said.. sheeeeeeit... it was all downhill from there. I did ok, good enough for what I call.... DEAD... but nowhere near Rassy's targets.. I need some patience and practice.. thanks for the kick in the butt!!! I need to get at it more..
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Old 03-17-2015, 04:25 PM
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Rastoff thank you for the challenge The wife and I both shoot probably more than the average person, so we needed something to change up the competition a little bit. I know it's sacrilege, her plastic gun glock against my little 2" snub but what fun! I've had the 10-5 for maybe 3 months, what a gas to shoot, but there is definitely room for improvement at 10 yards. Still I tell her not to shabby for a couple old farts

Oh, by the way... your targets work great!
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Old 03-17-2015, 06:32 PM
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Now you went and made it a family affair. Today before lunch, I said to my son I am going to the range. He said me too. He is 23, we have a welding business.

We shot the course of fire using my old bullseye 45. This is the same gun my son hit a couple rams last year in hunter silly wet.

We had a blast and went back to work.




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Old 03-18-2015, 12:51 AM
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Y'all are putting up some fine targets. I'm really enjoying watching the shooting results.
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:20 PM
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Here's my results with my 9mm Shield. The target is a B27 and I shot this cold, no warm up.
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:24 PM
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I would not want to get in a shoot out with a Wisconsin boy if they all shoot like you!
They do....
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:31 PM
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Default I will try again this weekend!

New Shield 9mm, M&P FS 9mm with Apex FSS, GI 1911 45acp stock
Looks like best chance is with the 1911.
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Old 03-20-2015, 08:16 PM
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I know I'm late to enter. My son got sick early this week so everything got put on hold. But I made it to the range tonight, however I couldn't remember what the actual challenge was other than to shoot at a B-27 target. So I took my model 15 no dash out. Loaded 20 rounds in it(not all at the same time mind you) put the target out at 15 yards. And let it fly double action style.

Untitled by MattOphotog, on Flickr


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Old 03-20-2015, 09:03 PM
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The planets were in alignment. I had an easy day at work, no precip and temps in the mid thirties. I raced toward home after work, stopped at Wally World and found these. The 8 ring seems the same as the B-27, the inner bull half it's size.

Shot as challenged 4-6-6-4 at 3,5,7 and 10 yards. HARD to slow down! Haven't shot this year at all except for Valentines day when I took my wife to a new indoor range and that day was really all about her.

Steyr L9-A1 Tulammo BrassMaxx 115gr fmj.

Man it was good to get out and do this! Thanks Rastoff.
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:15 PM
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Haven't shot this year at all except for Valentines day when I took my wife to a new indoor range and that day was really all about her.
You got to go to the range on Valentine's Day and it was all about her?!

I envy you my friend.
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:04 PM
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Default Rastoff's Challenge, three different guns

Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet-beretta-92f-compact-cropped-jpgRastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet-s-w-m-p357sig-cropped-jpgRastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet-s-w-pc1911rb-cropped-jpg

Welll, I actually did not do as well as I was ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY CERTAIN I could easily do. It was a good exercise and learning experience.

I used:
1. a Beretta 92F Compact with Winchester LE +P+ ammo.
2. S&W M&P357 Sig with Speer Lawman Ammo.
and
4. S&W PC1911RB with Winchester 230-grain standard pressure ammo.

I decided to do it two-hand, then strong-hand only, followed by weak-hand only. The attached targets are marked.

Interesting, to me, the flyers, that is the ones furthest out or from the group, were fired from either the five or seven yard line. I tightened right up at the 10-yard line. Perhaps that's because I do most of my fixed target work at 10 meters and muscle memory helped. Some happened with each of the holds.

It was a 40-degree day with no sunshine and a modest breeze from behind. By the time I got to the PC1911RB my hands were quite cold, making me feel better about those groups.

I followed this with the CHL test, using only the Beretta and Winchester LE ammo. All went into a ragged 3/4" hole. I just forgot to take a picture . . .. Trust me.
NOOO! I actually strung out to the left for a total group size of about six inches. And I really did forget to take a picture. It was KOLD! I'm stickin' with that excuse.
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Old 03-21-2015, 07:21 PM
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Interesting, to me, the flyers, that is the ones furthest out or from the group, were fired from either the five or seven yard line. I tightened right up at the 10-yard line.
I had exactly the same issue and see the same from many shooters. It's a strange phenomena. I think it is a mentality vs distance. We see 7 yards as "not that far" and tend to not be as precise. Then 10 yards seems really far so, we take more time.

That's just a guess. Still, it's why the challenge has to be done at the different distances. By changing distances it adds a weird mental component.

Of course, being cold doesn't help the concentration any.

Nice groups by the way.
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Old 03-21-2015, 07:26 PM
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You got to go to the range on Valentine's Day and it was all about her?!

I envy you my friend.
Any way you can get your wife to be interested and supportive is a good way. That why I let her do most of the shootin'.

Valentines day was a good day.
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Old 03-21-2015, 10:14 PM
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Default WE LOVE THIS THREAD!!!

My 10 year old son and I try this every time we head out to the ranch. Doug (Rastoff) has been coaching us both here and in emails and it is amazing the difference a bit of quality, professional help gives you.

My son shot this today under the challenge rules with full-bore .357 magnum, 158 grain PMC ammo. I was STUNNED. First 10,000 Highway Patrolman made 50 years before he was born! He has done so well with it, it reminds me of what I think is a Thunder Ranch saying--beware the man with one old gun! He probably knows how to use it.

But Doug's shooting tips have built his confidence so much he shot 10 or 12 magazines through my Springfield 1911 today too. He normally won't touch--probably sounds funny to most but a 1911 is a big switch to one use to his sweet old Smith's--17, 28, 29 (with .44 Special). Moving slide, safeties, flying empties, etc. But he had a blast with with the big .45 too.

Doug has done an invaluable service to my boy and me, and I think to us all who have done the challenge. Frankly, I have no worry that my son could defend himself if he had to with his 28.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:07 PM
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Alright; I finally was able to get to the range and enter the contest. I had an awful time figuring out how to get the pictures to Photobucket, then to the forum, but it appears that I finally was able to get it accomplished.

The gun is one of my house guns -a 686-6. Load is .357 125gr JHPs over 16gr of VV N110(I don't think load info was required, but there it is anyway.)

The first two pictures show that the dimensions of the oval centers are the same as a B27; 2" x 3". In the other pictures I attempted to provide measurements for the group. However I apparently wasn't standing directly above the target as I took them. Using my dial caliper the measurement in the third picture is approximately 1.427", and the one in the fourth picture is appromimately 1.6". I'll let Rastoff use his measuring software to determine things more precisely.

The black marks in the center of the oval are the remains of an upside down "T" which I drew with a felt-tip marker; I commonly use this marking to help align the sights.

Regards,
Andy


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