Thanks for offering to upload the pic Bob O.

I will also load it for you if you like: [email protected] This goes for anyone who wants/needs help.

I'm very interested to see the pics from anyone attempting this.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks bob ! Pic incoming
-mike

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the rules? there are no rules

All 4 revolvers are bone stock , with kinda ****** (gritty, inconsistent) DA trigger pulls on the 45 and the M&P
All shot per rastoff's outline

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the rules? there are no rules

Sorry for the delay, was out for a bit while we were all eating.

This pic is from kamloops67.

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MSP - Retired

Thanks Bob O
Having a tough time loading photos with my iPhone

I must say this challenge is not as easy at it looks
These were the only four I shot with no warm up
45 then 38 mp then m14 them m17 then I got chased of the range by horse flies ... They come for my shooting glasses , but stay for lunch

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the rules? there are no rules

Yep, not as easy as it looks. Still, really good shooting kamloops67. Keeping tight groups like that with a double action trigger pull is no small feat.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks rastoff , it was fun
Can't wait to get some 240s loaded up for the 629 or 69 and try this again
those are the two I shoot DA almost exclusively ... Playing at bear defence lol

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the rules? there are no rules

When to range early yesterday with friends. I challenged him to the Rastoff's challenge. :-) I did great in the beginning, even through 7 yds., then I blew it, hands was shaking, knees were knocking, and, as they say, I couldn't stand the pressure. He beat me, but he is ten years younger. At least that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it. :-) I'm gonna try it again, this time earlier in the session when I'm stronger. At least I can see vast improvement in my shot placement since I have become more familiar with the new pistol.

That's a great report Ole Joe Clark.

Another aspect of this challenge that is easy to gloss over, is how it is administered. To keep within the spirit of the challenge, it should be the first thing you do when you get to the range. No warm ups. When in a defensive situation, you won't have time to warm up.

That's how I shot it; cold.

Even so, I don't care if people shoot it multiple times or shoot a bunch of rounds to warm up. It's a test of our concentration. Everyone can do it if they use proper fundamentals.

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practice, practice, practice........
when I've been shooting paper targets since early April when I first shot the "challenge" , I've used the target Rastoff gave us to use. Plus I have since acquired my M&P 9c, which I love. So this round I used the 9c and came up with a bit better results. Post #179 shows the first try(using my fs M&P9).

Nice target Just another 22 shooter.

I've noticed a phenomena that I can't explain. A lot of people, and I do mean a lot, seem to do better with smaller guns. Why is that?

I've even had this same thing happen to me. I had two Glocks, a 22 full size and a 27 sub-compact. Both were .40S&W. For some reason, I always shot the 27 better. It makes no sense.

Now here we have Just another 22 shooter who's shooting his 9c better than the full size. Go figure.

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If I could copy and paste the 3 yd group from that target and the 10 yd group from this target and the great one hole 7 yd group from (you get the idea) I would have done this challenge many times. But I have yet to put it all together on one target. Have come close a few times, staying in the spirit of the rules (no warm-ups, well, once) but always have that 1 or 4 rds. out of bounds. Probably 300 rds. so far with 2 .45s and a 4" .357. I ain't giving up. It still is a fun drill.

Great post prplbkrr.

I believe we all struggle with a flinch on some level. I too struggle with a flinch; a bad one. Every now and then I'll drop a shot. When I say drop, I mean drop like I was aiming at a different spot. I'll put 19 shots on top of each other and then one will go low by 6".

That's the unique thing about this challenge. It's harder than I thought it would be. It's not physically hard, it's the mental acuity that makes it challenging.

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The pistol I'm trying to shoot better is the SW40VE, not the best trigger and ...... bla, bla, bla. you know the story.
I have been dry firing this pistol lots, and can control the sights and trigger much better now. I do find that if I sight the target and go ahead and get a shot off, I shoot much better. If I diddle around and try to get a perfect sight picture, I start shaking and the shot could go anywhere.

I agree 100%

This is target shooting not self defense shooting, I also teach and this may be OK for a basic course. Grip, stance, trigger control,muzzle control,and so on.

Self defense except in certain conditions begins and ends from the holster.

Your times are much to slow, yes for a beginner maybe to get use to what is taking place.

Everything your suggesting will fall apart without proper technique
out of the holster. for most it's hours of training and many hours of practice.

Lets not even get into shooting and moving.

Again a nice practice for shooting at the range or teaching basic skills
but to teach it without introducing a holster only means re-teaching a lot of it a second time.

Your targets do not represent combat accuracy for the average person.

my advise to folks is to practice, practice, sad thing is most indoor ranges will not allow rapid fire or drawing from a holster and that is sad in many ways.

If my students can't draw, present, and fire safely at 7 yards with combat accuracy in under 2 seconds I tell them to leave the gun at home until they can.

I would seriously consider relabeling your exercise.
It gives combat defensive shooting a bad name.

Many people fail from just having a timer beep behind them, let alone a full blown adrenaline rush, tunnel vision and diminished auditory senses.

I don't think Rastoff is teaching any certain method or trying to get anyone to "qualify" for anything. In my opinion, he was/is just challenging the members of this forum to get out and shoot more and become more proficient while having fun.

Remember from the OP, this is taken from my CCW qualification, but the circumstances of the challenge are different. This is about people pushing themselves to be better. It's about trigger control. It's about learning yourself so that if you ever need to take a precision shot, you'll know exactly your ability and limitations.

Remember, I'm in CA. Getting a CCW is very difficult here. I'm a firm believer that a lawful citizen shouldn't have to ask permission to carry. So, I devised a shooting qualification that would be easy enough yet showed sufficient safe gun handling.

However, I believe as you do, there's more to defensive shooting than just having a gun. So, the part that's not listed is the shooting we do after the "official" qualification. Here is what I do next:

• 4 Controlled pairs (2 second par time)
• 4 Shots with the support hand only. Most have never even tried this.
• Reload drill- Fire two, emergency reload, one more shot. (5 second par time)

All this is from the ready. I've only got one hour with them at the range. If presentation from the holster was allowed, it could get very dangerous. In all the time I've been teaching this class, I've only had three students with any training in how to present from the holster. If you're really a defensive instructor you'll understand why it's not a good idea to have several students with no training presenting from the holster and trying to shoot under time pressure when they have no experience with it.

Yes, this is not how I would expect someone to shoot if they were defending themselves. However, if they are attempting to save a hostage, they better be able to do this. Don't you agree? Thus, the idea is to use your carry gun in the manner it would be used on the street.

For some reason people think that I'm suggesting that this is the only way to shoot, it's not. It's just one component of a well rounded skill set. There's simply not enough time in the class to do much instruction. If they come back for a class that is only about defensive shooting, there is a lot more they would learn. Yes, time would be a factor. Not just one time, but many depending on distance and position. Also, not just presentation from the holster, but presentation from concealment.

Now, are you going to take the challenge or did you just come here to hijack the thread?





This is because you're making one smooth motion when you shoot this way. The same can be accomplished after the sight picture is obtained. Once you have the proper sight alignment and sight picture, just start building pressure on the trigger. Build pressure until the gun fires. Focus should be on the front sight. Practice this by first building pressure slowly. Then speed the pressure build until you're shooting at the same speed you would when just bringing the gun up. That way you'll combine precision with speed.

Then, you can slow down again, but your trigger press will be smooth and consistent. This way you can go a little slower and obtain the best precision when you have time.

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[COLOR="Blue"]My intention is not to highjack your thread, Rather the intent is to point out how your info is is misleading to a new shooter. For the most part I don't argue with folks on the net. But since you want to pursue your logic, I will indulge you.
I think that will be a challenge in itself.




My goodness man, by your own admittance they are new shooters
with minimum to no experience, and within one hour want to bring in hostage resolution with a firearm.


I have admit I have been defeated, not by your challenge,
but simply from your logic.

Holy cripe!

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MSP - Retired

Wow, talk about getting up on the wrong side of the bed. :-) I apologize for breathing so loud.

Decaf anyone?

Sigh, it's a sad day in the world of shooting, any kind of shooting, when so many think that precision has no place.

gray wolf,
I'm sorry this challenge doesn't meet your expectations. I've tried to explain the whys and wherefores of this challenge, but you're bent on attacking it rather than trying to see the value. Fine, do what you like.

Are you going to shoot the challenge or not? If you are, we will welcome you. I will extend the offer once more to you; shoot the course of fire as laid out in the OP, keep all your shots in the orange and I'll send you a polo shirt with the Black River logo on it.

This does not give defensive shooters a bad name. It is simply using your defensive gun for some precision shooting. If you won't, or can't, participate in the challenge, start your own thread.

Maybe my second challenge is more your speed? Rastoff's Challenge II

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I thought I would give your challenge a try today. I'm not interested in participating in the ongoing argument as to whether this is precision shooting or defensive shooting. Does it really matter, not to me. All my shooting is for the purpose of improving my skills. This was a more interesting challenge than I originally imagined it would be. Anyway, I shot the program using three Semi-autos that I might carry. The first was a Springfield Armory Champion .45 ACP, the second was a SIG P226 in .40 S&W, and last was a M&P .40 C. Below are the results. Didn't notice the second challenge until today. Will try it next range visit.

Attached Images

	DSC_0094.jpg (46.9 KB, 49 views)
	DSC_0096.jpg (46.8 KB, 41 views)
	DSC_0097.jpg (37.4 KB, 43 views)

It's not a flinch. My problem is thinking how well I am shooting, getting all hits inbounds, instead of concentrating on the next shot. As soon as I think I am a Hot Shot and this is easy, suddenly, I am not doing very well. My shooting falls apart. The difficult part is keeping my head in the game and not getting cocky.

If I may offer a suggestion...

One technique I use from time to time is a negative target. Basically, cut out a hole in your target of the size group you want. For example, if a 6" group is your goal, cut out a 6" diameter hole in the center of your target. Practice getting all your rounds in the hole. What this does is force you to focus on the shot you're trying to make now instead of seeing the bullet holes you've already made. As long as none of your rounds are hitting paper you're achieving your goal. Over time you can make the hole smaller or add distance to give yourself more of a challenge.

And from a self defense perspective, if you are forced to fire in self defense you probably won't be able to see where your bullets are hitting anyway, so it's also a way to train yourself to shoot accurately without getting immediate feedback.

Just something to consider.

prplbkr,
Yeah, that makes sense. It's one aspect that makes the challenge more difficult than it seems at first. By starting at 3 yards, it builds a slightly false confidence. 3 yards is easy for everyone. 5 is only slightly more difficult. It's the transition to 7 yards that gets most. It's usually at 7 that the miss comes. For most, if they get past 7, 10 is not too hard.

If this were shot in reverse order I belive it would be easier.

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I installed some new sights on my M&P 40, so after I got it sighted in I decided to try this challenge.

First I tried it in .40S&W with a handload of 165gr Xtreme bullet over Win. 231.

033 by John, on Flickr

Next I dropped in the Storm Lake conversion barrel and shot it with a 9mm load of a Zero 125gr bullet over Win. 231

032 by John, on Flickr

Fun challenge - takes a crapload of concentration to do well on this.

Yes it does!!
Nice grouping!

Damn nice!!!

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Nice shooting jdesro1911.

How do you like that straight trigger from Apex?

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I like it a lot. It is like Apex says - it is about as close to a good 1911 trigger as you can get on a striker - fired pistol. Very crisp, virtually no slack or overtravel.

Apex says it should result in a trigger pull weight of 3 - 4 pounds but I think mine is heavier than that - but I only have a couple hundred rounds or so through it with this trigger, so it might get a little better with more use. We'll see, but overall I am very pleased with it.

My target would look like that, from 2 feet. :-)

Great shooting

Not a winner here but I took your challenge. And had fun doing it. Great exercise and good practice. I know I can shoot a little better so I reserve the right to try again.

I like it!!! I hope to try it again this weekend.

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I somehow missed this until today. I have been shooting competitively(USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, Steel, Pins) since 1990 and grew up shooting on the farm. Until 2012, Iowa was a shall issue state at the sole discretion of each county sheriff. After 9/11 my wife and I decided to get our CCW permits. At the time, there was extensive classroom lecture plus shooting quals. We used your Challenge I COF and we were stunned to see how badly our classmates shot...I mean scary bad!

My wife and I shot the top two scores, got our permits and were required to reshoot the course every two years until the sheriff's clerks decided you could stop requalifying. We are now shall issue state with no serious training required.

I don't do pics so I can't post my targets. I can say I might be able to do as well as Rastoff but maybe not. I'm 73 now and have lost some of the edge although I still shoot regular matches.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Tried the challenge today with my new Sig 1911 Scorpion.

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MSP - Retired

Nice shooting Bob O!

Nice enough to make me measure it with my software. Here's his target:


At 2.2" it isn't as small as my group, but it's small enough that it might fit in the orange center of the B-27E. If you remember from the OP, the actual challenge is just to keep all the shots in the orange. This means I had to do some more calculations because Bob O didn't use the same target.

Brother, it was close. Alas, the top shot is 2" from the center. Since the orange oval is 3" tall, this shot would be 1/2" too high to have kept the whole group in the orange. Man, so close.

Still, very good shooting. Thanks for doing it.

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I printed off some of the target you supplied. Hoping to get to the range one day next week to try my hand at it. The heat and humidity here is really bad, especially on us over 40 (make that waaaaay over 40) crowd, so I need to go really early one morning.

That was great shooting Bob O.

Thanks guys.

Rastoff, the orange centers on my targets are decals that were advertised as 2", so my groups aren't that great. Though I'm very happy with this 1911, it will take some getting used to.

I'll try your challenge again after I get a couple hundred rounds through it.

ADDED:

Rastoff, I re-read your post.....I understand what you're saying now. I'll have to order some silhouette targets or make some centers that are the proper size for next time. Thank you for measuring it for me! I love this challenge and have respect for anyone who tries it and posts their pics.

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What I have been considering is putting up a 1" target, (aim small, miss small) then overlay a 2"x3" target afterwards and see how I did. Though doing it that way may not fall within the spirit of the challenge.

If I did the negative target, with my luck I would shoot it clean, but couldn't prove it because there would only be a 2"x 3" hole. LOL

If I could ever shoot it clean, I wouldn't care whether anyone believed it or not.

Bob O, No need to order special targets. Rastoff made a target that he attached to his message on about page 2. It's similar to the one he shot in the beginning. I printed off a couple the other day to use.

It's at post #101 which is the top of page 3. However, I've made a better one.

This one is an exact duplicate of the center of the target I used. The first one I made is still acceptable as far as I'm concerned though. This one is just more accurate.

Print it at 100% and be sure to turn off scaling.

Attached Files

Challenge Target.pdf (78.4 KB, 59 views)

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I certainly don't have a problem with you doing it that way. The "spirit" of this is to be honest with yourself and to use your defensive gun. The idea is to get out and shoot. See how we are with that gun. Hopefully, it will drive all of us to try harder to work on our marksmanship.

This is all done on your honor. If you posted a picture of a negative target without any extra holes in it, and told us you shot it clean, I'll believe you. The only one you'd be lying to is yourself. How would that improve your shooting?

So, go ahead and try the negative target. It is a good way to work on your shooting. However, I do like to see targets with bullet holes in them. Call me sentimental, but those just make me smile.

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I recently bought a very slightly used M&P9 Compact, and yesterday I installed some APEX goodies in it (DCAEK and RAM).

I had some free time today, so I headed out to the range to try it out for the first time.

Naturally, I had to give this challenge another go.

I have to tell you, this little pistol can shoot! I was pleasantly surprised - and glad that the sights were right on the money after removing the rear to put in the APEX USB.

I was on track for a WORLD RECORD group, until the very last shot at 10 yrds (You can probably guess which one that was).

IMG_0109_edited-1 by John, on Flickr

OMG.......nooooo!!!!! Had to be the last shot too. Excellent shooting man, excellent shooting.

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Excellent shooting jdesro1911! Definitely have to break out the computer for this one:

Even with the flier, it's still one of the best groups we've seen.


Now, just because I can, I measured the group without the flier...

This would be the best group without doubt. What's even better is that it's not just a good group, it's in the center. Even the previous best group was off center a little more than this. My group in the OP is not as well centered as this. (and I was using a gun that cost 4 or 5 times more than this )

Brother, if I'm ever taken hostage, I want you to take the shot to take out the bad guy.

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Where do we get the official challenge target?

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Any B-27 or B-27E will work. They ate sold at just about every gun store.

I got mine from here: http://www.letargets.com/content/b-2...ros-target.asp

I buy them in lots of 100 so they're a little less that way.

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Freedom isn't free.

Some great groups showing up here. Reminds me of a statement I saw on one of the shooting forums. "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian." Meaning: steady hands and good eyesight, and practice, practice, practice.

Have a blessed day,